Nationalist and European

lola_run

Can one be both?

Whim

I presume by European you mean a supporter of union amoung Europe, not just born in Europe. In which case I don't think so. If it is possible it hasn't happened yet. And one of the EU's main victories was putting a cap on Nationalism, which is nothing more than a destructive force. They're completely opposed.

There's a lot of hypocrisy in European Nationalism, in this country especially. Take the people who complain that the EU destroys Ireland, yet they fail to realise it's the main reason we're as rich as we are.

DadaKopf

I think before any discussion happens, lola_run needs to get his head out, define terms and gives an opinion.

oscarBravo

Correct, and I'd appreciate if no-one else contributed until that happened - thanks.

lola_run

Definition of Nationalism:

(There are many but this is one I find the most fitting for such a discussion)

The feeling of loyalty and attachment to one's nation or nation-state, and strong support for its interests.
www.comune.venezia.it/atlante/documents/glossary/nelson_glossary.htm

I believe it is possible to have a strong 'nation' and strong European interests. What do you think?

brianthebard

I think it is entirely possible if one understands that the EU and Europeanism is there to compliement Nationalism, not to take away from it. I also think that more emphasis should be put on culture and society and not political autonomy since ultimately any nation which has attempted to be autonomous has only gained the ire of most of the rest of the world. eg North Korea, Iran, etc. However when people are unwilling to accept this conflict arises.

lola_run

brianthebard wrote:

I think it is entirely possible if one understands that the EU and Europeanism is there to compliement Nationalism, not to take away from it. I also think that more emphasis should be put on culture and society and not political autonomy since ultimately any nation which has attempted to be autonomous has only gained the ire of most of the rest of the world. eg North Korea, Iran, etc. However when people are unwilling to accept this conflict arises.

Thank you for such an intelligently written post! I do think that the EU is there to complement 'nationalism' as I defined, but it was founded to prevent extreme nationalism (such as Nazi rule and fascism in Italy) and it has done an excellent job in doing so, I think.

I'm asking this question, as I've been having this discussion with several French people, many of which, see the EU as some kind of monster. Yet when I ask why exactly, they just say 'because it has failed' or make such blanket statements as 'the idea of trying to unite different nationalities is utopic'.

I think how the EU is portrayed in the media has a lot to do with it. It would be interesting to carry out a study into this, come to think of it.

Personally, I view the EU as something positive, a body that creates greater equality (through grants for education, work, numerous other support schemes), the creation of the Euro makes business within EU borders so effortless, and the freedom to work, live or study in any EU state is such a wonderful opportunity to avail of, but of which so few actually do.

As for it being a failure, well it's monetary policy certainly is and its foreign policy does leave much to be desired (but that's kind of off topic here).

Apart from having to say goodbye to the Irish pound (not such a big deal, we've still got our identity recognised on the back of the euro coin with a harp), I don't think Ireland has had to give up anything very special to join the European club. Or have we? Has our identity changed since EU accession?

Since I fail to see how the French, not all I'm sure (and I know the polls will contradict my statements), but a fair few I've spoken to, have a negative opinion of the EU, contributions to this discussion from any French people would be very welcome.

silverharp

I gather there is a general tendency for smaller countries to do better economically when aligned with larger entities. So it would seem to be generally good for Ireland to be part of the EU. Going forward the risks include the Euro breaking apart due to poor demographics or peak oil. The EU interfering with our tax policy so we lose our competitive advantage. Nationalism in Ireland will always be with a small n , apart from the NI issue, it only concerns cultural quirks which quite frankly the majority will mostly ignore.

johnnyskeleton

The paramount importance of the EU is this: for centuries people have fought and died in order to control all of europe. The EEC was formed on the simple, but brilliant, idea that if European countries are going to war for greed, lets make peace an even more profitable venture than war. Plus, on a small level, we can all feel part of the EU and therefore masters of the entire continent (even if that is not really true at all). Every citizen can feel himself to be a little napoleon (only successful).

When people talk about soverignty, they talk about the big decisions; who to go to war with, are we communist or capitalist, dictatorship or democracy. I think that the EU does a good job of representing the regulated free market with a socialist twist that represents quite a large portion of European politics. Plus, while any member state can go to war, we have a few mates to back us up if we're attacked, or to cool us off if we're attacking (although Tony Blair doesn't quite get this).

The Eu has also implemented common policies on Employment law, the environment, industry standards etc, which can only really be seen as a good thing (unless you are a 19th century industrialist).

For me, I like the idea that I can say I'm European, and that gives me common heritage with the Sweeds, Portugese and Austrians. I like the way I am free to visit the Roman Forum, the Brandenburg Gates, or the Acropolis anytime I want. I like the way that when times are good here, people from France, Poland and the Czech Republic can come here, and if times go bad, we can go anywhere in the EU to work.

So I would be more of an EU nationalist (trade-blocalist/continentalist) than I would be an Irish nationalist. That's not to say that I don't still see myself as Irish, but I am happy that Ireland is part of something bigger, yet retains it's own little nieche.