Can I insist on a chip-count after going all-in?

Gunther_Gloop

We were playing poker at a friend's house last night. I was winning and on a good run.
I went all-in pre-flop and one other person went with me.
I told him put his money on the table. He said we'd count it out after. I wasn't happy with that. I wanted to know the amount and wasn't sure which of us had more. Everyone else around the table disagreed with me and called for me to turn over my cards (since we were both all in).
As I started to count my own chips, the person next to me flipped over my cards.

I left the table at that stage because I felt the control/run/flow/call-it-what-you-will had gotten away and the vibe had changed.


I realise we didn't have to count them, but I think I had a right to insist on it.

Did I?

kakak1

Gunther_Gloop wrote:

We were playing poker at a friend's house last night. I was winning and on a good run.
I went all-in pre-flop and one other person went with me.
I told him put his money on the table. He said we'd count it out after. I wasn't happy with that. I wanted to know the amount and wasn't sure which of us had more. Everyone else around the table disagreed with me and called for me to turn over my cards (since we were both all in).
As I started to count my own chips, the person next to me flipped over my cards.

I left the table at that stage because I felt the control/run/flow/call-it-what-you-will had gotten away and the vibe had changed.


I realise we didn't have to count them, but I think I had a right to insist on it.

Did I?

Technically you are probably correct.
Why you would want to be so awkward I don't know.
Whoever turned your cards unless he was the dealer was totally out of order.
Yes the vibe had changed because of your childish attitude so probably correct decision to leave and let the adults continue.

kebabfest

In a home game mistakes are easily made, so counting beforehand is a good idea. Will stop proper rows later on.
If people think you're a kunt for doing so, it is probably due to the fact you're a kunt and nothing to do with the money counting

Mellor

seeing as both of you were all in it made no difference.
you could of counted before you moved all-in
or he could ask a count after you have moved in, if he wished
but after you've made the move and been called, it doesn't really matter when you count, before or after the hand.

Gunther_Gloop

Thanks for that. I'd prefer to concentrate on the technical aspect of it rather than having a civics discussion if that's ok.

There are rules to poker and I would simply like to know if what I wanted to do is within those rules or not.
Is there something like a definitive/ authoritative "Rules of Poker" somewhere?
All's I can find are individual site rules, etc.

green123

Gunther_Gloop wrote:

Is there something like a definitive/ authoritative "Rules of Poker" somewhere?

no.
all casinos / card rooms set their own rules.
of course they are generally the same with just minor variations.

a good guide for home games from robert ciaffone
http://www.pokercoach.us/RobsPkrRulesHome.htm

brianmc

Gunther_Gloop wrote:

Thanks for that. I'd prefer to concentrate on the technical aspect of it rather than having a civics discussion if that's ok.

There are rules to poker and I would simply like to know if what I wanted to do is within those rules or not.
Is there something like a definitive/ authoritative "Rules of Poker" somewhere?
All's I can find are individual site rules, etc.

In that case... I don't think you're technically wrong.

Slowrolling, is not technically wrong. All slowrollers should be shot.

Sorry, I'm rambling now.

Mellor

Very Good Point Brian,
Gunther, what hand did you hold, as this affects weither or not what you did was wrong

Gunther_Gloop

Mellor wrote:

Very Good Point Brian,
Gunther, what hand did you hold, as this affects weither or not what you did was wrong

I had a pair of sevens. I wasn't playing slow or 'being difficult' up to then, but I was controlling the game -going all-in a few times before this, taking out some players, etc..
Chips were covered on the board (ie. counted out) each time before this as far as I can remember.

Is that slow-rolling? I never heard the term.

brianmc

Gunther_Gloop wrote:

I had a pair of sevens. I wasn't playing slow or 'being difficult' up to then, but I was controlling the game -going all-in a few times before this, taking out some players, etc..
Chips were covered on the board (ie. counted out) each time before this as far as I can remember.

Is that slow-rolling? I never heard the term.

With a pair of sevens I wouldn't call it slowrolling, there still shouldn't be a problem with just flipping over your hands - both of you. Play the game like it's meant to be played. The chips are in the pot... There's no need to drag it out now.

Slowrolling would usually be more a situation where you KNOW pretty wel that you're ahead and yet you delay turning over your hand for some sort of foolish dramatic effect. You have the other guy beat. Flip over the hand like a "gentleman" (or some other less poncy sounding term with the same intent).

Solksjaer

Gunter,
just ask yourself why you needed the count, you are all in anyway....

but seen as it was a home game though perhaps they should have indulged you.......generally though when an all in is called, the dealer sorts out the stacks before the cards are dealt but after the hole cards are flipped.

Gunther_Gloop

I was also the dealer at the time.

5starpool

Makes no difference. If ye are proficient at chip counting then it should only take 10 seconds anyways. I prefer to do it afterwards to get the tension out of the way.

Gunther_Gloop

The tension is what it's all about in my opinion.

DeVore

The way I like to run a table (and believe is the best way) is this order:

1. The chips are moved in.
2. The cards are turned over.
3. The chips are counted and the remainder returned to the owning player.
4. The board is laid out.

Often it doesnt happen like this for two reasons:
1. I will have counted the stack when its pushed in to let the player know what bet he is facing (most usually because Ive been asked to... who the hell calls all-ins without knowing how much they are being asked for unless they have a monster).

2. The players both say "we'll work it out later".

The latter I would only tolerate in a home game as it can lead to difficulties later. If its a three way pot, I would NEVER sort it out after as its a recipe for disaster.

Technically I would say you can insist on knowing if you are facing your tournament-death or not before the board is laid out. I've never heard of it being insisted on but then as I've said, I've rarely found myself in that position in the first place.

Oh, and the guy who turned your cards over.... 20 minute penalty.

These would be my rules, as has been said, everywhere rules differently.

DeV.

White Knight

Gunther_Gloop wrote:

We were playing poker at a friend's house

Poker .. it's only a game .. people need to remember that sometimes! :rolleyes:

Goodluck2me

DeVore wrote:

Oh, and the guy who turned your cards over.... 20 minute penalty. DeV.

20 mins? even though he was already all in and stalling?

White Knight

goodluck2me wrote:

20 mins? even though he was already all in and stalling?

No other player has the right to touch your cards under any circumstances

Goodluck2me

a question:
If someone asks you for a chip count do you have to give it to them?secondly what happens if you lie?

Gunther_Gloop

goodluck2me wrote:

20 mins? even though he was already all in and stalling?

I was stalling now? For what? Divine intervention?
I wanted to know which of us was going out if he loses. I fail to see any issue with that and the hand would have been played a lot sooner if it had gone ahead.


...Thanks all for the replies by the way. I think I got what I needed to know.

Goodluck2me

Gunther_Gloop wrote:

I wanted to know which of us was going out if he loses.

i think it would be quite unlikely that you would go out if he loses. so ill go ahead and answer this by saying he was the only one going out if he loses.

Gunther_Gloop

goodluck2me wrote:

i think it would be quite unlikely that you would go out if he loses. so ill go ahead and answer this by saying he was the only one going out if he loses.

Except I am also a he so your assumption is based on a fallacy, thus both null *AND* void.

White Knight

Gunther_Gloop wrote:

Except I am also a he so your assumption is based on a fallacy, thus both null *AND* void.

You are a "he" but if you are talking about yourself in the third person you may be schizophrenic

Goodluck2me

Gunther_Gloop wrote:

Except I am also a he so your assumption is based on a fallacy, thus both null *AND* void.

at first i thought it may have been just Null, but your right to point out that it is also void, was a close one!thanks, cant believe i made both mistakes.

Goodluck2me

White Knight wrote:

You are a "he" but if you are talking about yourself in the third person you may be schizophrenic

lol

fl&sh

in my own opinion every player at a table for whatever stakes/level should know pre deal how much he/she has in front of them.i've only done it once or twice after getting caught with my hand in the cookie jar so i just wanted to nurse what i'd left while the rest of the hand was dealt.i take it you got caught with your hand in the same jar.:cool:

Gunther_Gloop

fl&sh wrote:

in my own opinion every player at a table for whatever stakes/level should know pre deal how much he/she has in front of them.i've only done it once or twice after getting caught with my hand in the cookie jar so i just wanted to nurse what i'd left while the rest of the hand was dealt.i take it you got caught with your hand in the same jar.:cool:

If you mean 'going all in in order to suck up what's available, while not really expecting anyone to go with me', then yes, there was a bit of that.
Also, it was after a fair bit of drink and I hadn't taken note of just how much he had in front of him.

So when he said all-in and I looked at his pot, it started out as a "how much have you got there?" shriek by me. Once stated I felt I couldn't back down. And I still don't really see that I should have to be honest.

I'm not bothered by it, but I was just curious about where I stood re 'The Rules'.

5starpool

goodluck2me wrote:

a question:
If someone asks you for a chip count do you have to give it to them?secondly what happens if you lie?

If you have not bet they can ask how much you have left and you do not have to answer, but must have your chips in clear view so they can see. If you have gone all in then the dealer counts if asked. I almost always answer/count myself when I go all in anyways unless I obviously cover.