EPT Hand: Antonious vs AJunglen

sikes

From BlondePoker. pikeyed from 2+2

Adam Junglen...

It's funny you should mention his name, because he's just been involved, in probably the most fascinating pot I'm likely to see in this tournament, trust me...

Patrick Antonius makes it 1k from the button. Adam makes it 3.2k from the small blind and Antonius makes it 9k. Adam calls.

Flop:
Q2 4

Adam checks, Patrick moves in for 34.5k. The break has just happened, but a crowd is developing around the table as only the two players remain seated. Adam keeps staring intently at Patrick, checking his chips, it'll cost most of his stack to call. Patrick sits impassively. Finally, eyes still focused on Patrick, Adam pushes the 34.5k into the pot, and Patrick visibly loses the colour out of his face as he flips over 3 5 . Adam turns over first the A, then....the J ! Everyone including Patrick manages a double take. I hear people shocked, yet still somehow impressed at the call.

Turn:

8

River:

A

A 90k pot goes to Vegas based Scandie, there's not even a collective groan or sigh from the audience, people are still transfixed at the action.

Adam briefly, yet without a shred of regret in his voice explains, "His range for 3-betting preflop is so wide...When I called the 6k extra I was trapping." He seems remarkably composed for someone who has just lost such a big pot, "I don't care, I've played 10k comps before, his move in was a scared bet, I'd have probably called with King high."

And although that may sound arrogant to people, I could completely believe him."

Makes for good reading and "interesting" but i think its bad poker for a number of reasons.

TheSpaniard

Bad Poker!!
This is world class poker from BOTH players - you cant take this hand in isolation - the reads here especially by Adam are incredible.

BigCityBanker

It is my intention to make a number of similar moves in the burlo next week...

ah no seriously - weird hand.

Ste05

I think it was a great call too, he was just unlucky that PA had the 3,5. Who is this AJunglen anyway??

sikes

TheSpaniard wrote:

Bad Poker!!
This is world class poker from BOTH players - you cant take this hand in isolation - the reads here especially by Adam are incredible.

taking it in isolation could be what makes the play ok. Both players are the strongest at the table and there are easier chips at the table

Do you think antonious is pushing with air, ever?

sikes

Ste05 wrote:

I think it was a great call too, he was just unlucky that PA had the 3,5. Who is this AJunglen anyway??

19 year old asian guy who is part of the MTT community on 2+2, theres a few threads on it.

Ste05

Don't suppose you wanna link one, I don't really read the MTT sections of 2+2.

sikes

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=9747069&page=0&fpart=12&vc=1

this is discussing the hand. theres is a post in BBV but thats not interesting

TheSpaniard

Do you remember the call that Boubli made on him in Barcelona in 2005 3 handed - it was something similar. I think that Patricks play was magnificent - Adam could possibly have QQ and that is the only danger - you've got to think that a player might even drop KK to that bet on the flop and certainly AQ must think he is behind - and even if Adam has QQ Patrick has 8 outs.
Ladies and Gents this is what poker at the highest level is like - if you cant hack it dont turn up next week because you will get robbed blind!!!

sikes

TheSpaniard wrote:

Do you remember the call that Boubli made on him in Barcelona in 2005 3 handed - it was something similar. I think that Patricks play was magnificent - Adam could possibly have QQ and that is the only danger - you've got to think that a player might even drop KK to that bet on the flop and certainly AQ must think he is behind - and even if Adam has QQ Patrick has 8 outs.
Ladies and Gents this is what poker at the highest level is like - if you cant hack it dont turn up next week because you will get robbed blind!!!

patick pushed 35k into a 18k pot. He is hardly extracting max value from a big pair.

he is never doing this with air, so if it is a scared bet what is it with? 35, a flush draw, AK?

adam would never drop KK he wouldnt drop pairs lower than Q.

Patrik played the hand a like a noob, but that could be working on multi levels which we dont know about the history

We can only comment on the face of it, and its horrible.

You are being far too results orientated about the hand to construct anything meaningful to the discussion.

phantom_lord

TheSpaniard wrote:

Do you remember the call that Boubli made on him in Barcelona in 2005 3 handed - it was something similar. I think that Patricks play was magnificent - Adam could possibly have QQ and that is the only danger - you've got to think that a player might even drop KK to that bet on the flop and certainly AQ must think he is behind - and even if Adam has QQ Patrick has 8 outs.
Ladies and Gents this is what poker at the highest level is like - if you cant hack it dont turn up next week because you will get robbed blind!!!

no.

TheSpaniard

You are being far too results orientated about the hand to construct anything meaningful to the discussion.[/QUOTE]

This hand and this play is all about past history - how can we just sit here and comment about the hand alone - we all know who Patrick is and what his range might be. I find your comment extremely patronising.
Its world class poker - and this hand is right up there amongst the best plays I've seen (probably by both players). I would have made Patricks move also but never had the balls to make Adam's call - personally I think it may have been suspect but he was right and this is about reads and not what he might have had.

If this isn't meaningful to you then give up the game or stick to grinding out a few quid for yourself.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

sikes

TheSpaniard wrote:

I find your comment extremely patronising.

That was the intention.

TheSpaniard wrote:

Its world class poker - and this hand is right up there amongst the best plays I've seen (probably by both players). I would have made Patricks move also but never had the balls to make Adam's call - personally

You would have made the same move by patrick, but it would be based on what you know about adam, which is nothing from what you have said here. Thus making it bad.

TheSpaniard wrote:

but he was right and this is about reads and not what he might have had.

LOL, are you serious? This is why the IO next week is the best value tournament in Europe this year.

TheSpaniard wrote:

If this isn't meaningful to you then give up the game or stick to grinding out a few quid for yourself.

I find your comment extremely patronising.

TheSpaniard

Thats very fair Lloyd and he did say that he was trapping so you are right he should have moved pre-flop. However he did get more value calling post-flop but don't ask me how he knew he was ahead.

BigCityBanker

LuckyLloyd wrote:

If I remember correctly, Dave Callaghan was at PA's table in the Aussie millions for a fair bit during the tourney earlier this year. I think he noted that PA was just mad. Opening pots at every single opportunity for a raise, and just puahing all - in over any re - raises. Apparantly he would do it constantly and people would just let him away with it.

I think this may be in a different context Lloyd? PA was doing that at the bubble or when he went shortstacked - i cant remember which exactly but not when he had a playable stack. (im open to correction here)

I agree btw - if Adam wants his chips in the middle preflop was the place to do it.

mewso

I think there is patronising from both sides here. To me this is what I hate about the so-called genius' of poker. When they make a call like this (which I consider a bad call) and they are correct then we never hear the end of it.

What we never hear about about are the times they are wrong. Poker reminds me of the Emperor's new clothes far too often.

Saying PA is at it raising on the button is like saying toast is crunchy bread. Re-raising PA is the one good play here. Claiming to be slow-playing AJ in the SB is the joke.

All of the above is my opinion and I do not recommend you go lay bricks for a living instead of playing poker if you disagree with me.

TheSpaniard

Mine was meant to be Patronising - I'd make that move on any good player and would expect to be called by AA or QQ only.

Gholimoli

LuckyLloyd wrote:

If I remember correctly, Dave Callaghan was at PA's table in the Aussie millions for a fair bit during the tourney earlier this year. I think he noted that PA was just mad. Opening pots at every single opportunity for a raise, and just puahing all - in over any re - raises. Apparantly he would do it constantly and people would just let him away with it.

In my mind, Adam makes a massive mistake calling the 3 bet pre - flop. If you feel PA has a huge 3 bet range, then just go over the fcuking top with AJ. Taking a flop with it OOP is silly to me. It's just too weak a hand to play like that. Talk of "trapping" is pure nonesense IMO. Not seeing a flop and taking it down pre - flop has to be the correct line.

On the flop, the call is pretty ninja at first glance. I'm sure that absolute air (i.e. unpaired cards with no draw) make up a part of his range. But it needs to be a pretty big part of it to make this a "good" call. Fact is, he is only a marginal favorite over 53 (55 / 45ish) after the flop. He is behind any pair.

Sikes makes a good point about both players being comfortably chipped. There is just too much doubt about Ace high in this spot to call, risking a good stack in the process.

I don't like how Junglen played it (particularly pre - flop). But I am open to arguments to the contrary.

totally agree about pre-flop play.
i dont like the call on the flop either.
to say that you are trapping is focking insane as at he more than likely has two live cards anyway and he is not much of a dog against AJ and he is in position and the stacks are deep .

TheSpaniard

Guys he got his chips in the middle when he was ahead - he made a correct read - who does anybody think they are to criticise his play without good reason (Lloyd excepted as I cant argue with his reason).
THis may be the greatest hand ever!!!!

TheSpaniard

Fair play to you Musician - I apologise Sikes

gilmour

totally agree with Lloyd on this one, i thought i was the only one when i read the 2+2 lovefest for the call. As you say calling the reraise pf with AJ in order to "trap" is insane, and im not a big fan of the post flop call either, what exactly is he going to be comfortably ahead of that jusitifys him putting in 95% of his chips (which was at a healthy 50k+)? I would also imagine that his ego played a part in the call, maybe im being harsh though.

sikes

TheSpaniard wrote:

Mine was meant to be Patronising

It was tongue in cheek, i dont find anything here partronising.

TheSpaniard wrote:

- I'd make that move on any good player and would expect to be called by AA or QQ only.

thats not the point. any good player is such a vague term, that move could be hugely +EV or hugely -EV.

i agree with LL, i think adam should have pushed preflop/folded. there was a huge amount of chips out there for him to pick up uncontested.

EDIT: Apologies to you to, no hard feelings!

careca

gilmour wrote:

I would also imagine that his ego played a part in the call, maybe im being harsh though.

I reckon you're spot on.

Ste05

sikes wrote:

that move could be hugely +EV or hugely -EV.

No it can't, it can only be a positive or negative EV call. Personally I think it was a +EV call, albeit only slightly, and even I would have to take my tournament life into consideration here.







Ohhhh yes, I said it!!!! :eek:

sikes

Ste05 wrote:

No it can't, it can only be a positive or negative EV call. Personally I think it was a +EV call, albeit only slightly, and even I would have to take my tournament life into consideration here.







Ohhhh yes, I said it!!!! :eek:

we werent talking about this hand but one where we put it in against any "good player" and expect to be only called by AA, QQ.

Ste05

sikes wrote:

we werent talking about this hand but one where we put it in against any "good player" and expect to be only called by AA, QQ.

Ahh, now I see what you meant, the EV of the push in question would depend on who the Villain in the hand would be.

TheSpaniard

For what its worth I think that Patrick played the hand perfectly.

mewso

TheSpaniard wrote:

Ladies and Gents this is what poker at the highest level is like - if you cant hack it dont turn up next week because you will get robbed blind!!!

I find myself agreeing with this but not because I think this is poker at it's highest level

careca

TheSpaniard wrote:

For what its worth I think that Patrick played the hand perfectly.

I agree with this, but I think the call by other was shocking.

BigDragon

Ego poker at its best. Both could justify every move on every street to their mates and get total agreement.

Bad call. Pre and post. If you expect to call PA push with K high then why not put pressure on him and do some pushing of your own.

The Scandies dont like it up'em.

TheSpaniard

Really at the risk of repeating myself Antonius was positively brilliant in this hand - this is how you accumulate chips without having to get lucky - u just have to not get unlucky (ie run into a flopped monster or AA).
I'm not going to say that Adam's call was poor (although you must question it) simply because he was correct. This is poker in the 21st century and its great.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Daithio

I think AJunglen's comments after the hand show how full of **** he is. The only correct play here is to push preflop. If he had been in fact trapping Antonius and certain that his AJ was good why did he take so long over the call on the flop? I think preflop he got reraised, had a fairly good idea he was good, but didn't have the balls to push. It's an awful way to play AJ OOP against an aggro player IMO. I'm not really crazy on Antonius's play either though.

handsfree

yeah i think it was sh!te too, why put yourself on the line when you think that you're only a marginal favourite. seems like the guy is up his own ass

Jesus Wept

TheSpaniard wrote:

Guys he got his chips in the middle when he was ahead - he made a correct read - who does anybody think they are to criticise his play without good reason (Lloyd excepted as I cant argue with his reason).
THis may be the greatest hand ever!!!!

He was 54% v 46% and he called allin, it's far from ideal.

If you don't expect us to critique his play then don't post the hand.


I dunno where to start, I don't think it was great play by either player, I don't have the exact details to hand but Patrick shoved in for at least 2 times the size of the pot, it was an arrogant bet, from what I've seen/read he makes a few of them and then thinks people are donks if they call him. (see WPT when he Shoved with A2 and then gave Doyle Brunson abuse for calling him with 33).

TheSpaniard wrote:

Adam could possibly have QQ and that is the only danger - you've got to think that a player might even drop KK to that bet on the flop and certainly AQ must think he is behind

You're chat that it might make someone fold KK is insane, If Patrick had a real hand (set,KK,AA) I think 99.5% of the time he makes a reasonable bet, not a shove for 2 -3 times the pot size. You also likely
have to call with AQ, he isn't leaving you much choice with the way he has played the hand.


In closing, I think Patrick made it fairly obvious he had a draw, its easier to put him on flushdraw than 35o.
The other guy made a dangerous call, probably thought he was likely ahead, but even so its still a race at best, he is likely annoyed with Antonius for how he played it, so he called, fair enough.

Whole hand seems more like a battle of ego's than a poker battle.

sikes

TheSpaniard wrote:

Really at the risk of repeating myself Antonius was positively brilliant in this hand - this is how you accumulate chips without having to get lucky - u just have to not get unlucky (ie run into a flopped monster or AA).
I'm not going to say that Adam's call was poor (although you must question it) simply because he was correct. This is poker in the 21st century and its great.

Antonius got a 1/5 of his stack in the middle preflop with 35o there is nothing wrong with that however, he then pushed all in with 38k or something into a 18k pot. He needs adam to fold so many hands to make this play profitable. The fact that adam called with AJ meant that patricks read was way off in this hand.

Comments like this is poker in the 21st century is not relevant. This is hyper aggression. Theres nothing wrong with it no one has said there is. But the play is bad becuase patrick overestimated his folding equity.

I would have no doubt that Patrik himself would say he played the hand badly, but he prop doesnt give a crap about a tournament that costs him 30BBs

phantom_lord

TheSpaniard wrote:

Really at the risk of repeating myself Antonius was positively brilliant in this hand - this is how you accumulate chips without having to get lucky - u just have to not get unlucky (ie run into a flopped monster or AA).
I'm not going to say that Adam's call was poor (although you must question it) simply because he was correct. This is poker in the 21st century and its great.

huh? pf is fine.

flop play is pretty bad, he shoves 30somethingk into an 18k pot? how can you say this is brilliant? for this to be goot the other guy has to fold a ton! the fact the other guy called with A-high shows that he misread the situation totally.

gilmour

handsfree wrote:

seems like the guy is up his own ass

he's a 2+2 regular, so no surprise there then

ntlbell

phantom_lord wrote:

huh? pf is fine.

flop play is pretty bad, he shoves 30somethingk into an 18k pot? how can you say this is brilliant? for this to be goot the other guy has to fold a ton! the fact the other guy called with A-high shows that he misread the situation totally.

Calling a re-raise with AJo oop is fine?

It's pure idiocy, the only thing interesting about this hand is it shows how badly two "top pro's" can play when they make an effort.

TheSpaniard

I hear exactly what you guys are saying but I still think he made the correct play (well it's the play I would have made so I have to say that). He has raised and reraised preflop which says he has a big hand. The flop gives him a huge draw (disquised) and his opponent weakly checks a flop which I think can only be trap checked by a set of Queens - I definitely push here and if I'm wrong I still have a good chance to outdraw. This is the way alot of Scandies play on the EPT.

phantom_lord

ntlbell wrote:

Calling a re-raise with AJo oop is fine?

It's pure idiocy, the only thing interesting about this hand is it shows how badly two "top pro's" can play when they make an effort.

no, I meant patrick 4betting on the button.

I hear exactly what you guys are saying but I still think he made the correct play (well it's the play I would have made so I have to say that). He has raised and reraised preflop which says he has a big hand. The flop gives him a huge draw (disquised) and his opponent weakly checks a flop which I think can only be trap checked by a set of Queens - I definitely push here and if I'm wrong I still have a good chance to outdraw. This is the way alot of Scandies play on the EPT.

u'd push for 2xthe pot on a draw as standard? I think that's really bad tbh.

TheSpaniard

To be fair to you guys I have to say that on reflection my admiration for Adams play is wavering but I still think that Patrick played the hand perfectly and particularly post flop . A more passive player may have taken the turn card for free but to do so would give up the strength of his hand (unless oponent then considered he may have QQ in the pocket - unlikely). No I really love this play by Patrick.

TheSpaniard

Not as standard Phantom but in the context of this hand (preflop action and the check) - yes every time.

Jesus Wept

TheSpaniard wrote:

To be fair to you guys I have to say that on reflection my admiration for Adams play is wavering but I still think that Patrick played the hand perfectly and particularly post flop . A more passive player may have taken the turn card for free but to do so would give up the strength of his hand (unless oponent then considered he may have QQ in the pocket - unlikely). No I really love this play by Patrick.

Patrick played it worse than the other guy.

phantom_lord

would a bet of 10-15k not give him the same fe as the push?

is it possible the other guy gives a push less respect than a bet?

sikes

TheSpaniard wrote:

No I really love this play by Patrick.

why? you havent given any real reason except its great because all aggro scadies play like this and its poker in the 21st century. In this hand its bad becuase he loses money against adams calling range so he miscalculated his folding equity. Its so simple.

TheSpaniard

I think a bet of 10-15k would give the other guy the option of coming over the top and if he does what do you do? 65-70k in a pot and 20-25 left in your stack with a completely disguised openender - he's calling IMHO.

It's great to disagree isn't it Rigger.

Goodluck2me

The-Rigger wrote:

Patrick played it worse than the other guy.

i dont think so. people say his read is off, i disagree, id say he thought that the other guy was weak and asked him the ultimate question knowing that he had at least 6 outs (if the guy has AA a small % of the time) but normally will have 8 outs twice.
I think to look at the hand in isolation is incorrect too, you have to look at the players in question and how they have been playing up to now. i think the call from adam was a 3rd level call, in that he took into consideration what Antonius thought he might have. He thought antonius thought he was weak and so pushed, on this basis he called as antonius` range is massive here.
I dont think calling with AJo OOP against an aggro player is good play per se but neither is pushing 450BB into the pot pre flop with a questionable hand, where he doesnt have quite as mich folding equity as he would against an average player. Antonius wont fold quite as much and would imo take risks with marginal hands in order to secure a big stack. granted he`d throw away 35o but AQ/AK i would doubt it.
Finallly antonius`s 4 bet should really have got adam to fold, when he flat called Patrick may have put him in AK/AJ or a low pair and if he bets the flop and Adam pushed he doesnt want to be the caller, or if adam calls and pushed the turn he cant call, so by pushing he gets to see both cards albeit for all his chips but with a more than avergae chance of winnign the pot on the flop.

TheSpaniard

Sikes - and I'm not being condescending here but you view is so one-dimensional and I have given all my reasoning above - if you disagree fine

sikes

TheSpaniard wrote:

Sikes - and I'm not being condescending here but you view is so one-dimensional and I have given all my reasoning above - if you disagree fine

LOL, yeah we shall agree to disagree. we aint go anywhere