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Some Live Fitz 1-2 hands.

  • 30-03-2007 8:27am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,124 ✭✭✭


    All hands are from Fitz 1-2 PLH main game. My table image is pretty tight.

    Hand 1.

    2 limpers and I make it €11 with AdJd from the cutoff. I get 4 callers.

    Flop is Qd-Td-3h. Check to me and I bet €40. Button calls and UTG+2 then check raises to €140. He has about €300-€350 behind. After some thought I decide I am not worried about the button and I'm convinced UTG+2 has Q-T and not a set so I call/raise/fold?

    Hand 2.

    Table is 6 handed. I open in the cutoff with Ts8s and the button and blinds call me. Button is bad preflop and will call me in position with a lot of hands, but he is decent postflop. He's definitely a winning player and probably knows my range is pretty wide.

    Flop is T-6-3. I bet €30. Button is the only caller.

    Turn is a 9 putting two spades on the board. I got the feeling Button was calling to take the pot away on the turn so I check. he bets €40. After some thought I make to €140. He then moves all in for €450 more!! I call/fold? BTW I know played the turn bad.

    Hand 3.

    One limper and I make it €10 UTG+1 with AdQd. and get 4 callers. Flop is Ah-Jh-2d. Check to me and I bet €40. The General who was on the button goes all in for €170. Folded to me. I ask him if he has Ace-Jack. He says "No I have Ace-King" so I call/fold?


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 395 ✭✭handsfree


    call,
    fold,
    call.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,124 ✭✭✭NickyOD


    No one word answer please.

    Give some analysis.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭sikes


    Hand 1: Shove is fine. Might call if i could get the button into the hand with a deepstack or the raiser is very weak and will stack off on a dangerous turn. Not sure how you can get a read that says he doesnt have a set tho.
    Hand 2: I doubt he is playing a draw like this and thats all we are beating atm. I would have just called the turn bet. We had a good few outs getting a good price. I dont like reopening the betting on the turn with these stacks and this hand.
    Hand 3: Never played with the general. But call anyway getting 2/1. tho, when he declares his hand is that not binding?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,764 ✭✭✭DeadParrot


    I await with interest the analysis of hand one.

    Hand two. turn is shockingly bad, low flush possibilities on a dangerous board, 78s/T9 is a good possibility given the pre flop action (none), actually there's loads beating you, I honestly dont know what you where thinking. Without jedi like reads on my opp. I'm folding.



    Hand 3, I dont know the general, is he a slieeven? Difficult one, I might fold it but it would hurt me......who am I kidding, I'd make a crying call to see him turn over A2.

    actually sikes brought up a good point...f he turn over anything other than AK is his hand dead, or the other way around?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,434 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    This post has been deleted.


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  • Subscribers Posts: 32,859 ✭✭✭✭5starpool


    Hand one, the button is Paul Fox for any who know him. I was discussing this with him yesterday.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,537 ✭✭✭Ste05


    1: Is a pretty straight forward call, you're getting about 2.8:1 on your money, with implied odds of about 6:1 for the turn and position also. If your read is right then he's not folding so if you want to take a gamble here and now just push in, I'd say it'd be a +EV push, but your variance will be higher.

    2: No option but to fold now, as you say, you played the turn badly. I'd hopefully have just called the turn bet.

    3: I call, he's not deep enough to make me fold really and I don't really care what people tell me on the Poker table, but if you believed him then obviously it's a fold.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭ligger


    Hand 1. I can't fold a royal flush draw. Some times I call sometimes I push
    (by hands 2&3 I have been to the banklink to reload.)

    Hand 2. I fold, can't see top pair being good enough here and I have learned not to chase the flush from losing hand 1.

    Hand 3. If I believe him I fold if not I call.


  • Subscribers Posts: 32,859 ✭✭✭✭5starpool


    sikes wrote:
    Hand 3: Never played with the general. But call anyway getting 2/1. tho, when he declares his hand is that not binding?
    No, this type of crap goes on all the time in the Fitz, but with the general he probably does have Asses King (as he would say).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,337 ✭✭✭Bandana boy


    Hand 1
    I would like to raise here and often would push but seing as this is the FITZ you are not getting a fold ever i would probably call and hope the button comes along for the ride
    On the turn i am pretty much calling anything but a paired board but by now Poker gods will have rewarded you with an os K

    hand 2
    I would be sitting there really hating the turn raise
    if we give this guy any credit i think we have to fold he has just priced out our draws but against some Fitz players I would call here expecting to be ahead

    Hand 3
    I 100% call
    If he has AK on the button in the Fitz to raise and 3 limpers and didnt re-raise he deserves the running diamonds coming his way


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭Gholimoli


    hand one if you are convinced that he has top two then it comes down to how your hand performes against his and pots odds.
    i would think you are slight dog against two two and seen as you have 0 FE then folding is not bad i suppose.
    again im basing this on the fact that villain deffo has top two,you have no FE,and he has 350 behind after the CR to 140 and you have him at least covered.
    i think calling is the worse option here so its shove or fold in wither case.

    Hand 2:
    fold.
    as you siad you make a critical mistake on the turn.
    i would some times even check the flop.

    Hand3:
    fold


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭sikes


    Gholimoli wrote:
    hand one if you are convinced that he has top two then it comes down to how your hand performes against his and pots odds.
    i would think you are slight dog against two two and seen as you have 0 FE then folding is not bad i suppose.
    again im basing this on the fact that villain deffo has top two,you have no FE,and he has 350 behind after the CR to 140 and you have him at least covered.
    i think calling is the worse option here so its shove or fold in wither case.

    Its pretty tight alright, but given a max 350 stack behind its +EV.

    55+40+40+140+350->625
    450 more

    need 41.86% equity to make this Netural EV

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 44.927% 44.93% 00.00% 4003 0.00 { AdJd }
    Hand 1: 55.073% 55.07% 00.00% 4907 0.00 { QTs, QTo }

    we are 40% when we add all the sets in.

    A call is fine, because we could get the button in on the hand too and might have a greater expectation given the standard in live cash.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 403 ✭✭TheRock


    Hand 1; Whether he has has a Set or QT only slightly maters. If he has either you still need to hit your flush or gutshot straight draw to win. So 9 diamonds and other 3 Kings, 12 outs, 1.2/1 or 45% if you see both cards.

    However if he has a set and the board pairs your dead to his house so you cant count 2 cards as outs, so 10 outs, 1.6/1 or 38% if you see both cards. Your getting 275:100 pot outs now for the call, so there's no way I'm folding.

    Have you him covered?? This would decide whether I push or not.

    Ste05, can you explain the 6:1 implied odds to me?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,537 ✭✭✭Ste05


    Gholimoli wrote:
    hand one if you are convinced that he has top two then it comes down to how your hand performes against his and pots odds.
    i would think you are slight dog against two two and seen as you have 0 FE then folding is not bad i suppose.
    Yes it is pretty bad, it's €100 to call and there's already €280 in the pot. I'd guesstimate that our direct odds are no worse than 3-3.5:1 to have the best hand on the turn. We're being offered 2.8:1 with another €300-€350 to go. If we hit a K we're pretty much guaranteed to get all that, and if we hit our flush then there's a good chance we will get it all too. That's also not including the times when he checks the turn to us and we can check behind, having then got beautiful odds on our flop call.
    Gholimoli wrote:
    again im basing this on the fact that villain deffo has top two,you have no FE,and he has 350 behind after the CR to 140 and you have him at least covered.
    i think calling is the worse option here so its shove or fold in wither case.
    I don't really know what you're talking about here, you think pushing is better than calling because we have 0 fold equity and he has another 300 behind?? So you'd prefer to play for an additional 200BB's on this flop as opposed to calling for 50BB's??

    I think folding is the worst option, followed by a raise and calling is best...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,537 ✭✭✭Ste05


    TheRock wrote:
    Ste05, can you explain the 6:1 implied odds to me?
    As you say yourself, there's 275 in the pot now and it's 100 to call, meaning we have direct odds of 2.75:1.

    Implied odds are the odds we are offered if we think that our opponent will pay us off on the turn if we hit. So if you add the 275 in the pot now to the 300-350 he has left in his stack it comes to 275+300=575 and it's still 100 for us to call or ~6:1.

    NOTE: This is all based on the turn card only, it's seems unlikely we're going to get a free turn if we call the flop, as I would expect most Villains to lead out on the turn and more than likely push especially if he has 2 pair (or a set, it doesn't really make that much odds really, if he has a set it just reduces our outs by 1 card on the turn, i.e. 3d)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,337 ✭✭✭Bandana boy


    Gholimoli wrote:
    i think calling is the worse option here so its shove or fold in wither case.

    If you think he will fold 2 pair or set if we hit on the turn i might agree with you that it is push or fold
    but i do not believe that is the case so Call and bring in the button is surely better than raise


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭Gholimoli


    Ste05 wrote:
    Yes it is pretty bad, it's €100 to call and there's already €280 in the pot. I'd guesstimate that our direct odds are no worse than 3-3.5:1 to have the best hand on the turn. We're being offered 2.8:1 with another €300-€350 to go. If we hit a K we're pretty much guaranteed to get all that, and if we hit our flush then there's a good chance we will get it all too. That's also not including the times when he checks the turn to us and we can check behind, having then got beautiful odds on our flop call.


    I don't really know what you're talking about here, you think pushing is better than calling because we have 0 fold equity and he has another 300 behind?? So you'd prefer to play for an additional 200BB's on this flop as opposed to calling for 50BB's??

    I think folding is the worst option, followed by a raise and calling is best...
    Ste,
    We are getting 2.75:1 on a 3.5:1 shot.
    There is a chance that villain would not pay off a flush if it hits on the turn and check folds so you have to factor this in as well.
    I also totally disagree with you that villain may check the turn with top two pair, should a blank come on the turn giving us a free card and I think its pretty bad to suggest it.
    The only way I can see villain checking the turn is if a diamond hits, as it’s the most likely draw coming in.
    You have 12 outs on the flop giving you something like 45%+ equity.
    By shoving you can be sure that you are claiming your equity but calling does not ensure this.
    If you call on the pot would be 375 on the turn with 350 behind.
    Supposing blank hits on the turn and villain shoves you will then have to fold not having sufficient odds to call.
    Also your implied odds are no way near as good as you suggested as 9 of your outs are pretty transparent and any half decent villain would well be able to give up.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭Gholimoli


    If you think he will fold 2 pair or set if we hit on the turn i might agree with you that it is push or fold
    but i do not believe that is the case so Call and bring in the button is surely better than raise
    villain may well fold two pair if the flush comes in as i said its very transparent.
    and the flush counts for 9 of our outs so i dont think the implied odds are that great.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 395 ✭✭handsfree


    hand1. if you call the question really is how do you play the turn if you miss and also if you hit what is the likelihood that he'll pay you off. i feel going all in is a poor option as it increases your varience unneccesarily. are you prepared to check call if you miss the turn? how often does he put you on a set and not a draw?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭Gholimoli


    handsfree wrote:
    i feel going all in is a poor option as it increases your varience unneccesarily.
    can you please explian to me what the hell the above means?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 395 ✭✭handsfree


    i thought it would be fairly obvious

    by calling you go bust 0% cent of the time

    by going all in you go bust ~ 50% of the time assuming that an all in is called 100% of the time


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭Gholimoli


    handsfree wrote:
    i thought it would be fairly obvious

    by calling you go bust 0% cent of the time

    by going all in you go bust ~ 50% of the time assuming that an all in is called 100% of the time
    you are joking right?
    i mean you must be...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 395 ✭✭handsfree


    well actually no, assuming the expected value is that you hit you card the deviation from this value will surely change if the you have a new event i.e the turn card.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭Gholimoli


    handsfree wrote:
    well actually no, assuming the expected value is that you hit you card the deviation from this value will surely change if the you have a new event i.e the turn card.
    what has variance got to do with anything man?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 395 ✭✭handsfree


    everything if he goes all in he's giving away is stack 50% approx of the time


  • Subscribers Posts: 32,859 ✭✭✭✭5starpool


    handsfree wrote:
    i thought it would be fairly obvious

    by calling you go bust 0% cent of the time

    by going all in you go bust ~ 50% of the time assuming that an all in is called 100% of the time
    Strange post. I presume what you are advocating is caution, but you have to have a plan for the hand. If you call and fold to blank turn then are playing it wrong imo. Fold or raise are the only two sensible options here as you are minimising your potential winnings by only calling and still losing a reasonable amount every time the turn card is not favourable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 395 ✭✭handsfree


    handsfree wrote:
    if you call the question really is how do you play the turn if you miss and also if you hit what is the likelihood that he'll pay you off


    thats pretty much what i was getting at but i was advocating a call over a all in. also we have to bear in mind that the villian is going to call according to the read so is any point to a raise? and in that case how do you play the turn?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭Gholimoli


    handsfree wrote:
    everything if he goes all in he's giving away is stack 50% approx of the time

    Loosing your stack 50% or 60% or 70% of the time means absolutely nothing.
    Losing your stack is never a factor in this situation.
    Minimizing or maximizing variance is never a factor in how to play a hand.
    If you lose your stack 50% of time but the 50% that you don’t lose you actually get more than what is left in your stack (getting more than 50% from the pot) then you should t
    Always take that bet.
    This is fairly basic.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 395 ✭✭handsfree


    i dont think that taking an unneccesary risk is a smart play especially if all you're going to do is double up. the pot compensation isn't enough for the play and if you're talking about passing up an edge your wrong because it is ~50:50. i haven't worked out the math but its about that probably slightly less


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,404 ✭✭✭Goodluck2me


    5starpool wrote:
    Hand one, the button is Paul Fox for any who know him. I was discussing this with him yesterday.
    NickyOD for the WIN!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭Gholimoli


    handsfree wrote:
    i dont think that taking an unneccesary risk is a smart play especially if all you're going to do is double up. the pot compensation isn't enough for the play and if you're talking about passing up an edge your wrong because it is ~50:50. i haven't worked out the math but its about that probably slightly less
    Now im convinced you are joking because no matter how hard you try this post cannot be taken seriously.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 395 ✭✭handsfree


    yeah, so whats you're take then. go all in on every draw you ever get.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭sikes


    handsfree wrote:
    yeah, so whats you're take then. go all in on every draw you ever get.

    when we go all in we dont care if its a draw or not. All we have to do is compare out pots odds against our equity given a range for the villain. In this case its +EV to push, so if you are rolled for the game, you cant pass up these edges.

    Although in this hand, calling could have a greater expectation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,956 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    just so u know, if you had of called the 3rd hand, after the guy said he has AK, and he did in fact have AK - then u would automatically win the hand if u contest it - as this rulling was given in the fitz one night- ur not allowed to say what ur hand is.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 395 ✭✭handsfree


    i'm not strong on folding equity but from my understanding, villian fold 0% of the time so our folding equity is 0 and the edge is minimal i work out that we win 51.6% of the time.


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  • Subscribers Posts: 32,859 ✭✭✭✭5starpool


    Ace2007 wrote:
    just so u know, if you had of called the 3rd hand, after the guy said he has AK, and he did in fact have AK - then u would automatically win the hand if u contest it - as this rulling was given in the fitz one night- ur not allowed to say what ur hand is.
    Try telling that to the General. I may be proved wrong, but in this scenario I doubt it would be, in a cash game anyhow. I presume he would be given a warning only.

    Can Mick/Marq or any of the other Fitz dealers comment?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,956 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    by the sounds of things - ur doing a maths/stats course in college???


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭sikes


    handsfree wrote:
    i'm not strong on folding equity but from my understanding, villian fold 0% of the time so our folding equity is 0 and the edge is minimal i work out that we win 51.6% of the time.

    which is great considering we are getting a good price for a 50/50 shot


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,956 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    well i was in a hand, one night - and stated that i had something(which i didn't have) - guy folded his hand(which was ahead) and then asked to c my hand- which i just threw away- was told this was out of order- and then some one at the table said that - if i had what i said- my hand was effectively dead if i was called.

    i have since being told that talking a player to fold in a cash game/tourney is out of order.... however i did notice that in the wsop jamie gold did it alot..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,124 ✭✭✭NickyOD


    Hand 1. The real question is whether or not Shove > Call. Folding is out of the question. By the way on reflection I think Paul definitely had less behind but for arguments sake lets say he had 350 more.

    Without going into too much mathematical detail (because calculating the EV of a call is just based on guesstimation) if I just call here I'm throwing away €100 70% of the time because I will not be priced into seeing another card if I miss the turn. So every time i hit I need to extract quite a bit more than what's already in the pot to make an overall profit, which means my implied odds are not what they appear to be. My effective odds aren't really that great.

    A non diamond king is my only real money card, but is probably still scary enough for the villain not to go broke. He will definitely put me on a flush draw and check a diamond turn if I just call. How much I need need to extract is difficult to calculate as I can't be certain what the other player behind me has or if he will come along for the ride. My gut feeling was he wasn't hanging around.

    When I shove I know I will be called and I have to put in €450 to win €625 (275 in the middle plus Paul's 350 behind) My break even bet would be to risk €450 to win about €525 so the push is very profitable.

    At a guesstimate if I just call the flop check-raise I need to extract another €150 from Paul every time I hit the turn in order order for calling to be > than shoving which I think is optimistic.

    I shoved and hit the diamond on the turn. Ouch Paul. :(

    Hand 2:

    i don't think the turn check raise is as bad as everyone makes out, especially when you see what the villain had. I really felt he was weak enough for me to just end the hand there and then and his shove really surprised me. It was such a huge bet that he needed to be bluffing a huge % of the time for calling to be right. I desperately wanted to call and felt I was ahead but I feared making such a huge call in the fitz and being branded a donkey so I folded. He showed me 7-9 offsuit. Grrrrr....

    Hand 3. I folded and he showed Ass-King. "Very Sexy"


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 395 ✭✭handsfree


    i graduated in electrical engineering


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,956 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    ok u just sound like lads i know who do maths degrees... no offence meant...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6 DJ Donie


    "I wanna hang a map of the world in my house. Then I'm gonna put pins into all the locations that I've traveled to. But first, I'm gonna have to travel to the top two corners of the map so it won't fall down." --Mitch Hedberg

    Why not go to one place Bandana Man, the Bering Sea, sure thats on either corner of the world map???? ;);)


  • Subscribers Posts: 32,859 ✭✭✭✭5starpool


    DJ Donie wrote:
    "I wanna hang a map of the world in my house. Then I'm gonna put pins into all the locations that I've traveled to. But first, I'm gonna have to travel to the top two corners of the map so it won't fall down." --Mitch Hedberg

    Why not go to one place Bandana Man, the Bering Sea, sure thats on either corner of the world map???? ;);)
    Come again?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,404 ✭✭✭Goodluck2me


    Ace2007 wrote:
    however i did notice that in the wsop jamie gold did it alot..
    youll do very well in poker doin exaclty the opposite to what he does


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,754 ✭✭✭ianmc38


    Hand 1: Pushing isn't terrible, but based on the description in the OP we have no fold equity. I'm actually leaning towards a fold with calling as my least favoured option.

    Hand 2: Ugly. Now fold.

    Hand 3: Tough one. I dont know how the general plays really so i dont know if id trust his speechplayh. Id probably ship it in, but i dont mind a fold.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 657 ✭✭✭BuChan


    lol a lot of bickering on this post.
    hand 1. i'm with gholimoli just shove! calling is the worst option, it means you have to hit on the turn and if the villian pays you off after a diamond hits the turn it's a miracle. i suppose you could catch the disguised offsuit K, miracles do happen. i'd definitely push.
    handsfree wrote:
    yeah, so whats you're take then. go all in on every draw you ever get.

    .........oh but of course! lol!

    hand 2. if i were watching this i'd certainly have a hard time putting either of you on anything. i guess you're check raise on the turn was represting AA or a set, it was a strong play (i think, a lot of people seem to disagree). it's a very strange one, i dont see how you can call with top pair in this situation, the other guy played it so strong.

    hand 3.
    lol i dont know the general!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,754 ✭✭✭ianmc38


    Also hand 1 we cant rule out QQ/TT/33 as these are all part of his range in a raised pot preflop and are hands that could definitely be checkraised as played.

    Against that range of 2 pair and a set our equity drops a bit more. Meh close one. I do hate folding those massive draws though.


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