Insomniac (RFOM,Jak) on the state of things PS3..

McDermotX

Whether or not you agree with all his views, its well worth a read to get an insight into a developer's mind with regard to the PS3's place in the world..
Some insightful views (if you agree or not) on various subjects such as Blu-ray, Wii, Xbox Elite, HDD etc etc..

Don't forget, his opinion is as valid as everyone else's, so please consider that before barging in with your own..

Mar 27, 2007 : 10 Reasons Why PS3 Will Win This Console Generation


Insomniac Games Chief Creative Officer Brian Hastings discusses why the PS3 is the console to beat

First of all, let me make it clear that Insomniac is a 100% independent development studio. Sony has neither endorsed nor authorized what I’m writing here.

When I started this blog post I was planning to write about Home and Little Big Planet from a developer’s perspective. But as I read some of the media and message board responses to Sony’s GDC presentation, I wanted to address an ongoing industry phenomenon. Specifically, the sheer volume of negative spin toward Sony from both the mainstream press and the internet community. Mere minutes after Sony announced a beautiful, ground breaking, free, community-enhancing online PS3 service, 100 internet posters were trying to argue that this was somehow a bad thing. Whether you love or hate Sony, if you’re trying to spin Home as a bad thing I can only conclude that you’re part of Microsoft’s $3.2 billion viral marketing campaign.

I’ll be the first to say that Sony has had a very rough road from last E3 up through this year’s GDC. Some of their wounds have been self-inflicted, but they’ve also had to face a conspicuously hostile media. Take the New York Times article “How the PS3 will kill your dog, steal your girlfriend, and infect you with Ebola.” And Time magazine’s piece “Global Warming: Is It The PS3?” And more recently, GameSpot’s “Ten Complaints We Thought Up While Everyone Else Was Watching Little Big Planet.”

For the last nine months it has been fashionable to bash the PS3. At first it was controversial, even titillating, to make sensational and dire predictions about the PS3’s future. You could watch it happen again and again – a rumor starts on a message board (“The PS3s all caught on fire at TGS!”, “Blu-Ray won’t have any Porn!”), then it gets picked up by a games industry website, and a few days later USA Today runs the story with the headline “Experts Say PS3 Doom3d!1!!” But the tide has changed so much now that it’s downright controversial to suggest that the PS3 may yet be a success. So, in the spirit of sensationalism and controversy, let me present to you 10 reasons why the PS3 will be the console market leader by 2010:

1. Home & Little Big Planet
One of my jobs at Insomniac is to try to come up with “the next big thing.” This is something everyone at Insomniac does, but as Chief Creative Officer it’s also part of my job description. For the last two years there have been two concepts that I have felt had the strongest potential to be the next big thing. At GDC, Sony came out of the blue and delivered fully-realized versions of both concepts.

The first concept is a realization of the ‘Metaverse’ from Neal Stephenson’s groundbreaking novel Snow Crash. For those who haven’t read it, it’s what inspired Second Life. Over the last couple years, many of us at Insomniac have come up with lots of different ideas on how to make such a system for consoles. So when Home came out, already nearly complete and looking beautiful, it was both amazing and humbling at the same time. In short, Home is exactly what the online console community needs. I’m not saying that because it’s on the PS3. I’m saying that because Home is a fully realized version of something I’ve been trying to figure out how to do for two years.

The other “next big thing” I had been thinking about is how to make a game that is primarily driven by player-generated content. So when Little Big Planet was announced I felt like Orville Wright tinkering on a bicycle-powered balsa wood plane as a learjet suddenly flew overhead. Not only does Little Big Planet have stunningly beautiful graphics, gorgeous animation, brilliant physics and intuitive controls, it’s also a cooperative four player online game! This alone makes it accessible to a much greater audience than player vs player games. And most important of all, it has an absolutely ingenuous system for creating and sharing your own levels. This is HUGE. This is something that’s never been done on consoles and now it’s being introduced not as a half-baked add-on to another game, but as an absolutely brilliant, fully realized, breathtaking experience. You can bet that dozens of developers will create their own Little Big Planet levels as soon as it comes out. Many future game designers will get their start by designing Little Big Planet levels. Gamers who previously had no way to get their foot in the door as a game designer will have developers calling them in the middle of the night if they make a top-rated LBP level. I say again, Little Big Planet is HUGE.

It’s humbling to know that other developers had not only thought of these two concepts, but brought them to fruition in such stunning fashion. Mostly, though, it’s very encouraging to see Sony taking more of a lead in online innovation. While some people were accusing them of merely copying the competition, Sony has been quietly working on two of the most innovative ideas of this generation. “Mii too?” Give me a break.

2. Free Online
Among all the talk about the price of Sony’s console, I almost never see anyone mention the significance of Sony’s free online service. Xbox Live Gold costs $70 to sign up for 1 year, or $20 for three months. You can renew your membership for $50 a year. So if the Xbox 360 stays around for five years, you’ll be paying 70 + 50 + 50 + 50 + 50 = $270 to access features that Sony gives you for free.

I agree, Xbox Live is overall offering a better online service right now. But $270 better? And Sony is steadily narrowing the gap in online features. With improvements to the messaging system and support for background downloading, Sony is rapidly catching up with many of the key advantages that Live has enjoyed. Add to that the fact that Sony is offering virtually lag-free dedicated servers at no cost, while on Xbox Live you are paying for a more laggy peer-to-peer service. Furthermore, one of the biggest advertised features of Xbox Live is matchmaking, yet the implementation of this feature has been inconsistent since it is left up to the developer. The matchmaking service on Resistance: FOM, meanwhile, has been one of its biggest successes, proving that even at this early stage the PS3’s online capabilities are very competitive. And free. As the PS3 community continues to grow with new features and player-generated content from Home and Little Big Planet, Sony’s online service is looking better and better. And, again, they’re not charging you $270 for it.

3. 50 GB games
If you ever hear someone say “Blu-Ray isn’t needed for this generation,” rest assured they don’t make games for a living. At Insomniac, we were filling up DVDs on the PS2, as were most of the developers in the industry. We compressed the level data, we compressed the mpeg movies, we compressed the audio, and it was still a struggle to get it to fit in 6 gigs. Now we’ve got 16 times as much system RAM, so the level data is 16 times bigger. And the average disc space of games only gets bigger over a console’s lifespan. As games get bigger, more advanced and more complex, they necessarily take up more space. If developers were filling up DVDs last generation, there are clearly going to be some sacrifices made to fit current generation games in the same amount of space.

Granted, some really great Xbox 360 games have squeezed onto a DVD9. Gears of War is a beautiful game and shows off the highest resolution textures of anything yet released, partly because of the Unreal Engine’s ability to stream textures. This means that you can have much higher resolution textures than you could normally fit in your 512 MB of RAM. It also means that you’re going to chew up more disc space for each level. With streamed textures, streamed geometry and streamed audio, even with compression, you can quickly approach 1 GB of data per level. That inherently limits you to a maximum of about 7 levels, and that’s without multiplayer levels or mpeg cutscenes.

Sometimes people ask us, “If Resistance takes 14 gigabytes, why doesn’t it look better than Gears?” Well, for one, Resistance didn’t support texture streaming, so we had to make choices about where we spent our high-res textures. Resistance also had 30 single-player chapters, six multiplayer maps, uncompressed audio streaming, and high-definition mpegs. That all added up to a lot of space on the disc. Starting with Ratchet and Clank Future: Tools of Destruction we are supporting texture streaming, which will make the worlds look even better, and will also consume even more space on disc.

There’s no question that you can always cut more levels, compress the audio more, compress the textures more, down-res the mpeg movies, and eventually get any game to fit on a DVD. But you paid for a high-def experience, right? You want the highest resolution, best audio, most cinematic experience a developer can offer, right? That’s why Blu-Ray is important for games, and why it will become more important each year of this hardware cycle.

4. Casino Royale
Casino Royale is the first high definition title to crack the top 10 on Amazon’s DVD charts, rising up to number seven shortly after being released. This is significant because it dispels the myth that high definition discs are merely a niche and will never take off with the mainstream.

A lot of people have been waiting on the fence to see whether Blu-Ray or HD-DVD would emerge as the winner of the format war. Well, at this point the war is as good as over. Blu-Ray has won a TKO. It always had superior technical specs and much wider studio support, but there was the question of whether HD-DVD’s earlier release and initially lower price would capture enough of the market to make it the winner. But Blu-Ray has already surpassed HD-DVD in overall discs sold, and is currently outselling HD-DVD discs at about a 3:1 rate. Many neutral observers in the A/V community have called the war in favor of Blu-Ray. If you want minute-to-minute updates, you can follow what’s left of the format war at various locations on the internet:
http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/
http://www.hdgamedb.com/amazon/versus.aspx
These sites mainly compare Amazon sales data, but the Nielsen sales data shows the same thing: Blu-Ray discs are outselling HD-DVD by a steadily increasing margin.

Many of Disney, Fox and Sony’s biggest box office movies will release exclusively on Blu-Ray in the next three months, likely pushing the sales separation between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD to a margin where many retailers will begin phasing out HD-DVD. Retailers hate a format war even more than consumers, and I suspect they’ll take the initiative to end it as quickly as possible.

5. HDMI
A lot has been said about Sony’s choice to ship with composite cables. I won’t say I agree with that decision, but I think too little has been said of the fact that even the cheaper PS3 SKU supports HDMI 1.3. The PS3 was the first consumer device to support it, and this is a very important future-proofing step. When you go to buy higher-end TVs, the PS3 will support the highest possible audio and video input the TV and receiver can accept. If and when high-def movies start requiring an Image Constraint Token, the PS3 will still be able play them in high definition.

Right now, HDMI seems primarily to be a selling point to the hardcore audio and videophiles of the world. But HDTVs are getting cheaper and more popular all the time, and consumer sophistication and knowledge of high definition audio and video is growing. In a couple years, HDMI devices will be the standard. Graphics and audio in games will also continue to improve, and more and more consumers will want HDMI in order to get the best results on their home theater setups. As this happens, Microsoft has a difficult choice – do they stick with “last gen” video output, or do they release a premium version of the Xbox 360 that includes HDMI but effectively forces early adopters to re-buy the system to get the best results? Sony ultimately made their console more expensive by including HDMI, but over the next couple years it’s likely to play out as the right choice.

6. Standard HDD
When we were developing for PS2, I was jealous of Xbox’s standard hard drive. There are so many things this allowed you to consider as a developer – virtually unlimited save data, improved load times, custom music, downloadable content and user-created content just to name a few. But since hard drives, no matter what the size, never get cheaper than about $50, Microsoft lost money trying to compete with the PS2’s price. That may be the reason they left it out of the cheaper Xbox 360 SKU, thinking that Sony would again leave out the hard drive on the PS3. Instead, Sony made the hard drive standard for both SKUs. This added to the cost of the PS3, but it also let developers use the HDD in games.

The problem with including a hard drive in one version of the 360 and not in the other is that developers can’t use it for the games. Or, at least, they can’t use it for any required features. When you are guaranteed to have at least a 20 GB hard drive in the console, you can write your load caching routines around it, or use it for your application’s storage needs. To a developer, an optional hard drive is roughly equivalent to no hard drive at all.

Another advantage of the PS3 is that it will let you put in any third party hard drive you want. From a developer’s standpoint, this is good news because the market will gradually be able to support larger downloadable games over the course of the PS3’s life. As downloadable content gets larger and more sophisticated, PS3 owners can choose to buy larger hard drives at the best market price. The more this happens, the more developers will be encouraged to create better and better downloadable games.

7. The Wii Fad Will Fade
OK, this one’s going to be controversial, but I have to say it. I like Nintendo a lot. I think Nintendo has innovated far more than any other company in the industry. And I think the Wii is really, really fun. But… let me relate to you a story that may sound familiar:

Your friend Reggie invites you over for a Wii Party. It’s awesome. You and your friends partake in whatever beverages are legally appropriate for your age group. The next day everyone who went to the party rushes out and buys a Wii.

A week later Reggie hosts another Wii Party. This time only half the group comes. It’s still fun, but there isn’t quite as much shoving to get at the Wiimote.

The next week Reggie hosts another Wii Party. You tell him you have bird flu.

Obviously I’m exaggerating, but the Wii does have many characteristics of popular mainstream fads. It’s instantaneously accessible, it’s unlike anything you’ve tried before, and it’s great fun to share with friends. In short, it’s everything Nintendo said it would be and it has captured the world’s imagination. The only downside is that the world is easily distracted. Tickle Me Elmo captured the world’s attention at one point, as did Furbies. They were both instantly accessible, were unlike anything people had seen before, and were fun to share with friends. But a year later, after everyone had seen them and tried them out, their popularity waned.

The Wii is currently riding on a massive wave of mainstream attention and has been purchased by lots of people who don’t normally play games. But how many of those people who are hooked on Wii Sports will also buy Wii Need For Speed? Mainstream fads usually run their course within a year. As the honeymoon period fades, the Wii will be going up against more and more graphically impressive games on the PS3 and Xbox 360. More people will be buying HD televisions and looking for the most immersive and stunning experiences available. For these reasons, I think the Wii will be more successful than the GameCube or N64 but in the long run will still be outsold by the PS3.

8. PS3 Has a Major CPU Advantage
The GPUs on the Xbox 360 and PS3 are roughly equivalent, with the Xbox 360 arguably having a slight edge. The difference in CPU power, however, is far greater with the PS3 enjoying the advantage. The PS3’s eight parallel CPUs (one primary “PPU” and seven Cell processors) give it potentially far more computing power than the three parallel CPUs in the Xbox 360. Just about any tech programmer will tell you that the PS3’s CPUs are significantly more powerful. The problem is that it has been challenging thus far to take advantage of the Cell’s parallel architecture.

With the PS2, Sony got away with making a fairly developer-unfriendly system, and its success allowed their hardware designers to ignore developer’s complaints as they made the PS3. People high up at Sony have realized that approach simply won’t work anymore and are trying to fix the problem. Sony is actively improving their libraries, tools and developer support in order to make PS3 development easier. They are giving first party developed techniques and code to third-party developers so that multi-platform games should start looking better on PS3.

Games developed from the ground up on PS3 are the ones that will really show off the PS3’s CPU advantage. The complexity of the distributed processing architecture means that PS3 engines won’t fully blossom until a little later in the lifecycle than the PS2. This has put the PS3 at a disadvantage early in its lifecycle, but within two years you will see games that surpass what is possible on the Xbox 360.

9. PS2 still outselling 360
I know, it’s outselling the PS3 by an even larger margin. But the continued strong PS2 sales really are a good thing for Sony. Anyone buying a PS2 at this point is probably not going to buy a PS3 or Xbox 360 in the next year. And when they do choose to buy the current generation of hardware, the PS3 will be in a lot better position. The price will have come down, the game library will be broad, and the top PS3 titles will probably have the edge in both graphics and sound. Just as important, the people buying into the PS2 now will be getting into many of Sony’s exclusive franchises that they will then later want to play on the PS3.

10. Something For Everyone
One of Sony’s biggest advantages is that it has strong franchises in every genre. Whereas Microsoft’s successful titles are mostly M-rated, and Nintendo’s are mostly E-rated, Sony has a big list of hit titles across the spectrum. When a 30-something gamer (like me) goes to buy a game console, it’s a lot easier to justify the purchase when there are games he can play with his kids as well as more mature stuff.

To Microsoft’s credit, they are doing a good job of catching up. The acquisition of Rare and the development of Viva Pinata have helped to broaden their spectrum. But it takes time to build a franchise, and Sony has been building their suite of titles for over a decade. Consider the breadth, success and critical acclaim of some of their exclusive properties: The Getaway, God of War, Gran Turismo, Hot Shots Golf, Jak and Daxter, Killzone, Ratchet & Clank, Shadow of the Colossus, Singstar, Sly Cooper, SOCOM, and Twisted Metal. These are all million-plus sellers worldwide that are either already announced or likely to appear on PS3. Add to this Sony’s new line up of first-party titles, including Heavenly Sword, Lair, Motorstorm, Resistance: Fall of Man, Uncharted and White Knight Story, and they have an even deeper and stronger line-up than what they had on PS2.


A lot of industry watchers and even a handful of publishers have been quick to write Sony off this generation, and I think that’s near-sighted. Sony has made a lot of decisions with the PS3 that may have slowed them down in the short run, but should give them a big advantage in the long run. The high price, hardware complexity, and the uncertainty of the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD format war have contributed to the PS3’s slow start out of the gate. But as the price drops, developers master the hardware, and Blu-Ray becomes the new DVD standard, Sony’s early disadvantages turn to advantages. As downloadable games become more common, the 60 GB hard-drive will be a big advantage to developers and consumers. As games get bigger and more sophisticated, Blu-Ray storage will increasingly become a major advantage. And as more and more of Sony’s exclusive first-party titles get released, the PS3 will begin to outsell the competition on a monthly basis. Those publishers who have shifted resources away from PS3 development will find themselves behind the curve and losing money as the market center gradually shifts toward the PS3 over the next two years.

I’m sure many of you may have comments about my point of view. If you do, please email blog@insomniacgames.com and I’ll do my best to respond. Also, I’ll be visiting the various forums to see what people think, including our own at www.insomniacgames.com (click on the community tab). Hope to see you there.

event

very well thought out piece

BOHSBOHS

a developer that makes games exclusively for SONY in ps3 praise shocker

hold the front page !!!!!

McDermotX

BOHSBOHS wrote:

a developer that makes games exclusively for SONY in ps3 praise shocker

hold the front page !!!!!

Some insightful views (if you agree or not) on various subjects such as Blu-ray, Wii, Xbox Elite, HDD etc etc..

Don't forget, his opinion is as valid as everyone else's, so please consider that before barging in with your own..

The point of the post is that is a fairly reasoned viewpoint from someone inside the industry (albeit tied to Sony), but it does come across as a well argued view..
Rather than just harping on saying that this is better or that is better similar to many on forums, he actually gives his reasons (whether you agree or not) and its hard to disagree with a lot of it..
He does venture a couple of all to quick bullet points regarding his view on Blu-ray/HD-DVD and Wii, but they are his opinion from his personal blog, and you'll find just as many people who'd agree as disagree..

Kevin2006

Whether or not you agree with all his views

But its hard not to agree with his views because they are obvious. For example the online issue, all this talk about how xbox live is better then the ps3 network, but when you consider how much you'll pay over say a 5 year period, is it that much better for the hundreds of euros extra you will pay. For me the answer is simply no, I would rather spend that money on games and blu-rays.

BTW, im not a "fanboy" of whatever you like to call people who have any sort of positive opinion of Sony. I really like the 360 aswell and I plan on getting one during the summer, im only after getting back into gaming in the last year or so. They are both great consoles and people need to stop bitching.

Ciaran500

Kevin2006 wrote:

But its hard not to agree with his views because they are obvious. For example the online issue, all this talk about how xbox live is better then the ps3 network, but when you consider how much you'll pay over say a 5 year period, is it that much better for the hundreds of euros extra you will pay. For me the answer is simply no, I would rather spend that money on games and blu-rays.

Considering you can easily get a 13 month sub on ebay for about $35 (less if you get lucky) and to sign up for live gold doesn't cost $20 more (not sure where he got that from ).

And yes I do think its worth that.

Stormbringer

McDermotX wrote:

The point of the post is that is a fairly reasoned viewpoint from someone inside the industry (albeit tied to Sony), but it does come across as a well argued view..
Rather than just harping on saying that this is better or that is better similar to many on forums, he actually gives his reasons (whether you agree or not) and its hard to disagree with a lot of it..
He does venture a couple of all to quick bullet points regarding his view on Blu-ray/HD-DVD and Wii, but they are his opinion from his personal blog, and you'll find just as many people who'd agree as disagree..

In fairness the devil can cite scripture for his own cause.

There are so many holes in this statement one could be here all day picking through them. I dont have the time nor the inclination to do so.

Enough said that this is a developer who only develops for a particular platform.

I wonder how long the online content will be free for?

However even though Sony have in most cases provided the various sticks for people to beat them with, I do hope the PS3 is a major sucess for them.

I think they could do with a break!

McDermotX

Ciaran500 wrote:

Considering you can easily get a 13 month sub on ebay for about $35 (less if you get lucky) and to sign up for live gold doesn't cost $20 more (not sure where he got that from ).

And yes I do think its worth that.

I think he is generalising ( and correctly I might add )..
The vast majority of Gold users will buy and renew directly with MS, rather than the informed few who'll source their membership elsewhere..

Personally, I think MS charge way to much for Live membership, certainly more than the infrastructure required and quality of the lag-free gaming. If Sony get to a point where they can provide Live-level networking for free (without resorting to publisher specific fees).....MS will look very overpriced by comparison (without bring Home into the mess)..
But, I'm a person who doesn't use Live anywhere near as much anymore (find online gaming a highly overrated experience, especially on console), so somebody who does use it a lot will consider it great value for money such as yourself Ciaran, I suspect..
Some people value it more than others..

Kevin2006

Stormbringer wrote:

In fairness the devil can cite scripture for his own cause.

There are so many holes in this statement one could be here all day picking through them. I dont have the time nor the inclination to do so.

Enough said that this is a developer who only develops for a particular platform.

I wonder how long the online content will be free for?

However even though Sony have in most cases provided the various sticks for people to beat them with, I do hope the PS3 is a major sucess for them.

I think they could do with a break!

Yea, considering how poorly the ps1 and ps2 did for them!:rolleyes:

McDermotX

Stormbringer wrote:

In fairness the devil can cite scripture for his own cause.

There are so many holes in this statement one could be here all day picking through them. I dont have the time nor the inclination to do so.

Enough said that this is a developer who only develops for a particular platform.

I wonder how long the online content will be free for?

However even though Sony have in most cases provided the various sticks for people to beat them with, I do hope the PS3 is a major sucess for them.

I think they could do with a break!

Then leave the thread please if you won't elaborate............the holes you see are probably the ones you don't agree with !!
I don't 100% agree with everything he said either, but I respect this summary of the PS3 situation more than a lot of what I've read on certain forums..

As already stated, the point of the post was that the person backed up his personal blog with well thought out reasons......not just a simple "PS3s better, 360's crap, Sony's crap etc etc etc ", as so many threads turn into on this forum..

If people don't agree with something he said, then please give us your reasons why..

Karmafaerie

Did you hear how bitter he sounded when talking about GOW!:D

Sad twat!

Anybody who actually believes that Insomniac is unbiased needs their head examined!

If Jason Jones (co-head of Bungie) came out and gave his oppinion that the 360 was going to win, PS3 fanbois would ignore it, cause Bungie make games for MS.

The simple fact of the matter is, that Hastings was talking out of his ass, in the same way that every game developer talks out of his ass!

Vegeta

Karmafaerie wrote:

Did you hear how bitter he sounded when talking about GOW!:D

Sad twat!

Anybody who actually believes that Insomniac is unbiased needs their head examined!

If Jason Jones (co-head of Bungie) came out and gave his oppinion that the 360 was going to win, PS3 fanbois would ignore it, cause Bungie make games for MS.

The simple fact of the matter is, that Hastings was talking out of his ass, in the same way that every game developer talks out of his ass!

Nail on the head

McDermotX

Karmafaerie wrote:

Did you hear how bitter he sounded when talking about GOW!:D

Sad twat!

Anybody who actually believes that Insomniac is unbiased needs their head examined!

If Jason Jones (co-head of Bungie) came out and gave his oppinion that the 360 was going to win, PS3 fanbois would ignore it, cause Bungie make games for MS.

The simple fact of the matter is, that Hastings was talking out of his ass, in the same way that every game developer talks out of his ass!

Don't think anybody thinks Insomniac is unbiased

Bitter about Gear of War

Granted, some really great Xbox 360 games have squeezed onto a DVD9. Gears of War is a beautiful game and shows off the highest resolution textures of anything yet released

I certainly didn't detect any bitterness towards it in the article. I certainly was no fan of the game as a whole apart from its presentation aspects but its hard to disagree with anything he said ( or so I thought :rolleyes: ) from a technical standpoint..
Don't forget he was responding to fan level comparisons between GoW and RFOM, which, to anyone who's played both are both inaccurate and unfair..

It looks as if this thread is going the same way as the other ones, with no counter-argument to stand against one person's viewpoint apart from calls of bias (which seems firmly entrenched in some posters)

Mods....please lock thread as its not going to turn into a decent discussion..

Cheers

Ciaran500

TBH the reason people aren't countering anything here is that we're not going to write out a huge post to counter a post that will never even be read by the person that wrote it. That why I didn't bother anyway

lee_baby_simms

McDermotX wrote:

Mods....please lock thread as its not going to turn into a decent discussion..

Cheers

Did you honestly think it would? That article couldn't be more biased towards the PS3 and is reflective of Sonys arrogance towards the public.

Stormbringer

Kevin2006 wrote:

Yea, considering how poorly the ps1 and ps2 did for them!:rolleyes:

The point I was making is that in general Sony have been getting a bashing deservedly or not hence I think they could do with a break as the launch of the PS3 certainly in Europe has not gone exactly according to plan.

Sales currently running at 600,000 in Europe is all well and good but when Sony say that they will lose 200 quid on every console they sell thats a loss of 120,000,000 on sales alone in Europe on to mention the 250,000 giveaway in London and the other "sundry" costs in marketing.

My point remains "SONY COULD DO WITH A BREAK"

McDermotX

lee_baby_simms wrote:

Did you honestly think it would? That article couldn't be more biased towards the PS3 and is reflective of Sonys arrogance towards the public.

Apparently not .....

Lot of insecurity around here..

This is the Playstation forum, isn't it? If somebody wanted to upset people, they would have posted it in the Xbox/Nintendo forum..

Please discuss the personal blog post.........not your Anti-Sony/Anti-PS3 tendencies which are obviously going to conflict with the developer who obviously has a liking for the PS3 and working with Sony..
If that's all people have to offer.........please don't bother posting

Stormbringer

McDermotX wrote:

Whether or not you agree with all his views, its well worth a read to get an insight into a developer's mind with regard to the PS3's place in the world..
Some insightful views (if you agree or not) on various subjects such as Blu-ray, Wii, Xbox Elite, HDD etc etc..

Don't forget, his opinion is as valid as everyone else's, so please consider that before barging in with your own..

Remember what you said at the start of this..... Why do you tell us not to post just because you dont like what we say..... This is a land of free speech is it not. Or are we only allowed post positively about Sony in the Playstation section

McDermotX

Stormbringer wrote:

Remember what you said at the start of this..... Why do you tell us not to post just because you dont like what we say..... This is a land of free speech is it not. Or are we only allowed post positively about Sony in the Playstation section

By all means, post positively or negatively, as long as its well thought out..
But, at least post about the subjects touched upon !! If you look at the thread, nobody has discussed anything about what this developer has said, apart from Ciaran regarding the Live cost etc..

Why do you tell us not to post just because you dont like what we say

I don't like what any of you have said......but not for the reasons you think..

This thread has descended into the usual "bitter Sony, fanboy etc etc" that's all too common around here these days, but nobody has argued any of the points intelligently.............thats why I thought it was better to lock it..

This is no "fanboy" or anything like that who has posted this blog post.......if you don't agree with his statements about HDMI, HDD, Blu-ray etc.. then please counter it constructively or not at all.........that's all I asked..

Stormbringer

Stormbringer wrote:

In fairness the devil can cite scripture for his own cause.

There are so many holes in this statement one could be here all day picking through them. I dont have the time nor the inclination to do so.

Enough said that this is a developer who only develops for a particular platform.

I wonder how long the online content will be free for?

However even though Sony have in most cases provided the various sticks for people to beat them with, I do hope the PS3 is a major sucess for them.

I think they could do with a break!

In my very first post i mentioned this............ you must have missed it?

McDermotX

Stormbringer wrote:

In my very first post i mentioned this............ you must have missed it?

Apologies Stormbringer..
there's so much crap here now that its hard to pick out anything valid..

The first bit of your post though suggests you have no interest in posting anything relevant about specific "holes"

In fairness the devil can cite scripture for his own cause.

There are so many holes in this statement one could be here all day picking through them. I dont have the time nor the inclination to do so.

Enough said that this is a developer who only develops for a particular platform.

I wonder how long the online content will be free for?

steviec

Well I think he blew the importance of Little Big Planet out of proportion a bit. It's not like there haven't been games where the player could create their own levels before, though it does look like a great game.

Otherwise it's pretty much spot on. He made lots of good points and backed them up with solid logic and his first hand experience as a developer, and it matches what I've heard a lot of developers here have been saying in the talks we've received from various industry people (currently doing a Masters in Computer Games Technology)

Karmafaerie

Ciaran500 wrote:

TBH the reason people aren't countering anything here is that we're not going to write out a huge post to counter a post that will never even be read by the person that wrote it. That why I didn't bother anyway

100% exactly!
If you really want me to McDermot, I'll sit out tomorrow when bored at work, and tell you why every one of his ten points is biased, and could be faulted.

McDermotX wrote:

Don't think anybody thinks Insomniac is unbiased

First of all, let me make it clear that Insomniac is a 100% independent development studio. Sony has neither endorsed nor authorized what I’m writing here

So why did you emboldened this little tid-bit, if "no-body" was trying to deny Insomniacs obvious bias!;)

McDermotX wrote:

Bitter about Gear of War


I certainly didn't detect any bitterness towards it in the article. I certainly was no fan of the game as a whole apart from its presentation aspects but its hard to disagree with anything he said ( or so I thought :rolleyes: ) from a technical standpoint..
Don't forget he was responding to fan level comparisons between GoW and RFOM, which, to anyone who's played both are both inaccurate and unfair..

Sometimes people ask us, “If Resistance takes 14 gigabytes, why doesn’t it look better than Gears?” Well, for one, Resistance didn’t support texture streaming, so we had to make choices about where we spent our high-res textures. Resistance also had 30 single-player chapters, six multiplayer maps, uncompressed audio streaming, and high-definition mpegs. That all added up to a lot of space on the disc.

Are you actually saying that that doesn't come across to you as bitter?!

McDermotX wrote:

It looks as if this thread is going the same way as the other ones, with no counter-argument to stand against one person's viewpoint apart from calls of bias (which seems firmly entrenched in some posters)

Mods....please lock thread as its not going to turn into a decent discussion..

Cheers

Like I said before if you really are interested I will go to the effort, because I have a valid point that counters every one of his.

Now I'm sorry that you seem to be so offended about what I put, but as I said I am far from an MS fanboi.
I have a 360 and a Wii, and if the PS3 shows me something that I want I'll pick that up too, but for the time being can see no point seeing as I have a 360.
I've had every major console since the Master System, and have no real bias, although I'll admitt to being pissed at Sony's treatment of Europe.

All I did was come out and say that you can never really thrust a games developer, as there are no unbiased developers.
Where you picked up an anti-Sony rant I don't know!

McDermotX

Karmafaerie wrote:

100% exactly!
If you really want me to McDermot, I'll sit out tomorrow when bored at work, and tell you why every one of his ten points is biased, and could be faulted.





So why did you emboldened this little tid-bit, if "no-body" was trying to deny Insomniacs obvious bias!;)





Are you actually saying that that doesn't come across to you as bitter?!



Like I said before if you really are interested I will go to the effort, because I have a valid point that counters every one of his.

Now I'm sorry that you seem to be so offended about what I put, but as I said I am far from an MS fanboi.
I have a 360 and a Wii, and if the PS3 shows me something that I want I'll pick that up too, but for the time being can see no point seeing as I have a 360.
I've had every major console since the Master System, and have no real bias, although I'll admitt to being pissed at Sony's treatment of Europe.

All I did was come out and say that you can never really thrust a games developer, as there are no unbiased developers.
Where you picked up an anti-Sony rant I don't know!

Jesus Christ !!!
I wasn't going to even look at this thread again, but then I stumbled on it by mistake..

Firstly, does it matter that the developer isn't going to read any responses ?
Or do you place so much value on what people write on forums such as these, that they must be the truth..
Discussing topics like these open people's minds if they can take it onboard...........agree or disagree ?, that is the question here, not the validity of the poster's opinion..

Secondly, that disclaimer is only bolded because where the post was pulled from highlighted the same.........I don't for one second believe anyone here is stupid enough to totally rule out Sony bias from a tied developer, same goes for the likes of Bungie etc..
The point is that the writer comes across as firmly believing in what he has jotted down in his blog..........it is not a throwaway statement about how PS3 is the king of the next-gens or anything like that. It is a well thought out piece of journalism which has a lot of valid arguments..

The piece was posted as a topic of debate, if you don't agree with them, fine, but at least give your reasons, before signing off with the likes of

"Sad twat!

Anybody who actually believes that Insomniac is unbiased needs their head examined!"

As for not trusting game developers, also I don't think anyone will fall for that, it is personal summary of PS3 in todays console generation and why he thinks it will become leader of the pack.
His opinion is as valid as anyones, even yours, so why dismiss it totally out of hand when it is very well reasoned..

Thirdly,
still don't see the bitterness towards GoW, are you sure the bitterness you see is perceived purely because its a comment by a Sony developer ?
The actual statements do not portray any sort of bitterness or malice towards the Epic title, quite the opposite actually..
As I already stated he commented on the comparisons between RFOM and GoW because a lot of console owners are making that unfair comparison. They are not similar games at all, just seen as flagships for the respective platforms..
From a technical standpoint, his argument holds water....Resistance is a much larger game than GoW (they don't even compare!), one of the largest FPS games on any platform with a great multiplayer experience. Uncompressed 7.1 LPCM sound, which could in practice be upto 10 times more space consuming than regular DD. The Unreal engine is regarded as a very impressive build, especially in its use of high-def textures, which is part of the reason it is becoming more popular with other developers who are forced to program on systems with relatively limited memory. It allows for the introduction of this so-called texture streaming with excellent, but not perfect results.
Space is a concern when it comes to game size, don't even try to claim it isn't. Coming from a dev in the industry, can you not accept that, in time, storage space will always be at a premium if you want that longer game experience ?
One of GoW's main faults is its short length, for a game in long term dev, it is remarkably short-lived.....that kind of graphics requires room to breath.
I don't see anything wrong with the Insomniac dev's comment..

I don't agree 100% with everything he said, especially Blu-ray's premature victory over HD-DVD, but I can at least appreciate what is said without reacting negatively..
On a final note, I'm not really interested in people trying to portray themselves as impartial on these forums, their comments across various threads say more than a quick defensive statement ever will.
If you cannot see that this thread had dissolved into bias-led argument, I suggest you read it again.....There have been next to no comments on any of the subjects the dev touched upon, in fact, my last paragraph has commented on it more than any over the last 2 pages..

If you want to comment on any of the topics he brought up, fine, (whether positive or negative), but please try to limit it to the original blog post and without reference to dev bias if you can.....also, can this be the last of such posts please, if nobody wants to discuss what's said on a technical level, then I suggest we let the thread die..

Cheers......sorry if I offended anyone reading this..

Ciaran500

McDermotX wrote:

As I already stated he commented on the comparisons between RFOM and GoW because a lot of console owners are making that unfair comparison. They are not similar games at all, just seen as flagships for the respective platforms..
From a technical standpoint, his argument holds water....Resistance is a much larger game than GoW (they don't even compare!), one of the largest FPS games on any platform with a great multiplayer experience. Uncompressed 7.1 LPCM sound, which could in practice be upto 10 times more space consuming than regular DD. The Unreal engine is regarded as a very impressive build, especially in its use of high-def textures, which is part of the reason it is becoming more popular with other developers who are forced to program on systems with relatively limited memory. It allows for the introduction of this so-called texture streaming with excellent, but not perfect results.
Space is a concern when it comes to game size, don't even try to claim it isn't. Coming from a dev in the industry, can you not accept that, in time, storage space will always be at a premium if you want that longer game experience ?
One of GoW's main faults is its short length, for a game in long term dev, it is remarkably short-lived.....that kind of graphics requires room to breath.
I don't see anything wrong with the Insomniac dev's comment..

RFOM fits on a DVD9 if you were to remove all the fmv and replace it with in engine cut scenes.

http://newlevelgaming.blog-city.com/is_blurays_large_file_space_an_antipiracy_measure.htm
Padding file size = 32MB.
Total padding = 1.9GB.
Total FMV = 7GB.
Audio = 2.24GB. (605MB for music and English language only)
Game Assets = 6.12GB

So 6.72gb with the whole game, music and english language files and 8.36gb with all the languages (I assume they're the main 5 languages)

McDermotX

Ciaran500 wrote:

RFOM fits on a DVD9 if you were to remove all the fmv and replace it with in engine cut scenes.

http://newlevelgaming.blog-city.com/is_blurays_large_file_space_an_antipiracy_measure.htm
Padding file size = 32MB.
Total padding = 1.9GB.
Total FMV = 7GB.
Audio = 2.24GB. (605MB for music and English language only)
Game Assets = 6.12GB

So 6.72gb with the whole game, music and english language files and 8.36gb with all the languages (I assume they're the main 5 languages)

So, you could say Insomniac have a point regarding space requirements..
I know some people will consider HD FMV an excess, but you'd be surprised how many of you're fav games used FMV over the years..
Bear in mind, that many people consider RFOM textures etc of relatively poor quality (not true as the game progresses, but it could be labeled at the early levels)......the DVD9 is already bursting at the seams without the FMV, or the updated texture requirements people will expect from this next gen..
Never mind the audio side of things (which that article wrongly describes as bloated IMO), imagine down the line a full orchestral soundtrack in a Team ICO game in full 7.1 LPCM..
The Epic engine was able to provide the user with good quality textures etc, but it did come at a price.....game longevity, I'm sure Epic wouldn't have minded extra storage space. I remember reading they even considered multiple discs at one point..
So what will happen a few years down the line, when everybody wants their Gears of Wars or whatever at 1080p level quality with a game experience to back it up....advanced storage medium or multiple discs ?
There are advantages to using Blu-ray, beyond the conspiracy theory of Sony control, DRM etc..
Of course there are already multiple disc games on the 360 (and back in the CD days or course), so it is always an option, but as stated numerous times, there are reasons for Sony's inclusion of Blu-ray in the PS3 beyond simple game content..

Good point though Ciaran500

Retr0gamer

RFOM also uses very little compression for Audio and Texture files so the game size could be reduced a lot further.

TBH if the game was slpit over multiple DVD's it wouldn't be a problem. I never found it annoying to use multiple discs. Blue Dragon on the 360 is spread across 3 DVD9's which would add less than 1 euro extra to the total cost of manufacture.

Also why doesn't he just tell us the real reason for the low texture quality in RFOM. The PS3 has much less RAM than the 360 and the RAM is used a lot more inefficiently than the 360. Also nowadays a better GFX card is far more important than a better processor and this is were the 360 has the advantage.

His streaming argument doesn't hold up. It could easily have been used (it was pioneered by Sony with the PS1 afterall) and he also has a hard disk to work with that would make streaming a lot more effective.

Ste05

Now this thread is getting better. As a non-upto date Console user, I've decided to buy myself a next-gen console, and I've found this thread to be the most useful so far in helping to decide which way to go.

I thought the Insomniac guys points, although obviously biased, made sense and were well reasoned, so I really look forward to hearing more counter arguments.

Nice thread McDermotX and good work in trying to keep it on topic (although I think you really should have linked back to the original posting to keep Dev happy, I can't find where it was originally posted).

ntlbell

Ste,

It's here

and on the insomniac blog but you have to reg AFAIK

Ste05

Cheers NTL, so this is where you're hiding out these days...

ntlbell

Ste05 wrote:

Cheers NTL, so this is where you're hiding out these days...

I'm everywhere Ste....everywhere......;)

McDermotX

Cheers lads,
some decent posts there......as you could see, the post blew out of proportion there big time..

Decent argument there Retro, although the splitting of the PS3 memory doesn't mean it will always be a problem during game development. The 360 with its unified system is ultimately a lot easier to work with for experienced coders, while the PS3 setup does require a bit more hands-on experience.
This is the problem for coders with their first-gen titles, having to get to grips with both the mem and cell setup......not easy, but games like Motorstorm show what is in store..
Even for HD textures, the 360 memory config could be an issue at the outset, with even the texture-streaming process used in Unreal powered Gears of War showing a few cracks here and there and some repetitive texture usage..
Unfortunately neither console is setup perfectly for current methods of texture generation compared to high-end PC..
Games like Dark Sector for both PS3 and 360 could show how much coders have learned with both systems by the time it comes out.
Naughty Dog have also had preliminary success with showings of Uncharted, which if anything , show a texture usage beyond GoW and other Unreal powered engines..Lair is showing some extraordinary texture usage as well..
Even the early viewings of Rachet show a greater understanding of the nature of PS3 development

I don't entirely agree with this low quality textures argument leveled at RFOM either. Later levels are a quantum improvement texture wise and match most games available these days. Even the original post acknowledges difficulties as to where to decide to use HD textures.

Teething problems are only natural at the start while devs get to grips, problem is most multi-platform games will be identical, leaving this job upto those exclusive studios..
Having said that, Tecmo came out recently citing the "get to grips with the PS3" as bs, stating that its just an excuse for lazy dev (promoting their new Ninja Gaiden for the PS3 (aiming for 1080p 60fps - with self-shadowing)...interesting to see if they can back that up with proof later in year..

Karmafaerie

Mcdermot back in the fanboi hole!

Retr0gamer

Was going to say 512MB in the xbox360 is far more than the 256MB available in the PS3 but it looks like the 512 in the 360 is shared with the GPU. Can anyone confirm this?

McDermotX

Retr0gamer wrote:

Was going to say 512MB in the xbox360 is far more than the 256MB available in the PS3 but it looks like the 512 in the 360 is shared with the GPU. Can anyone confirm this?

Yes,
Unified memory meaning that the dev can allocate as necessary between GPU and sub-system......has its advantages..
PS3 uses effectively a mix of VRAM and XDR memory at die spec........effectively having 256 of main XDR and 256 of VRAM (GPU can allocate more XDR if needed)..
Both decent setups with their ups and downs..

McDermotX

Karmafaerie wrote:

Mcdermot back in the fanboi hole!

Thought we were getting somewhere until this showed up....:(

Good counter-argument..

Karmafaerie

McDermotX wrote:

Thought we were getting somewhere until this showed up....:(

Good counter-argument..

Good counter argument?!

You attacked me for saying that you should never trust developers, as they all have ulterior motives, and accused me of not responding in full to the initial post.
As Ciaran and I both pointed out this is because I have no intention of spending ten minutes writing something out if you're just going to try and get into an argument, and ignore what I said.
I still however offered to do so if you were interested in my oppinion.
To which you launched into a nonsencical tirade, ignoring what I said, and prooved mine and Ciarans point about fanbois not reading other peoples posts properly.

I'm not going to drop to your fanboi level of arguing because as I've said before, I'm not 9.
So have fun, I'm going to go and use my consoles for what they were designed, and that's playing, not bitching on the Internet!

Kay? Bubye!

McDermotX

Karmafaerie wrote:

Good counter argument?!

You attacked me for saying that you should never trust developers, as they all have ulterior motives, and accused me of not responding in full to the initial post.
As Ciaran and I both pointed out this is because I have no intention of spending ten minutes writing something out if you're just going to try and get into an argument, and ignore what I said.
I still however offered to do so if you were interested in my oppinion.
To which you launched into a nonsencical tirade, ignoring what I said, and prooved mine and Ciarans point about fanbois not reading other peoples posts properly.

I'm not going to drop to your fanboi level of arguing because as I've said before, I'm not 9.
So have fun, I'm going to go and use my consoles for what they were designed, and that's playing, not bitching on the Internet!

Kay? Bubye!

OK ??

You wrote
"If you really want me to McDermot, I'll sit out tomorrow when bored at work, and tell you why every one of his ten points is biased, and could be faulted."

"Like I said before if you really are interested I will go to the effort, because I have a valid point that counters every one of his"


I said (after the tirade)
"If you want to comment on any of the topics he brought up, fine, (whether positive or negative), but please try to limit it to the original blog post and without reference to dev bias if you can.....also, can this be the last of such posts please, if nobody wants to discuss what's said on a technical level, then I suggest we let the thread die.."

So much for not reading posts.......

Ciaran and Retro brought up a couple of good points to counter the dev's opinon, to which I tried to offer my opinion.........I never claimed to be right and they were wrong, just my own take on it which is no more or no less valid
than theirs. But they brought something to the table and I think understand the point of arguing.........I think you believe arguing suggests that someone will shove your position back in your face if you came back with a differing opinion.
You seem to think I wrote the original blog post and agree with everything said..
Don't worry Karmafaerie, any technical issue you may have brought up would have been treated the same by everyone, but a sweeping general statement about developer trustworthy with nothing to dispute it smacks of childishness in the face of other people's opinions..

Nobody had to respond in full to anything, all you had to do was pick something you didn't agree with, and state your case............thats how a forum of opinion works, everyone else would debate it and hopefully emerge on the other side having learned something..

I don't know whether or not you came into contact with these so-called fanboys somewhere else on these pages, but try not to treat everyone with the same contempt and consider every post on its merit without generalities..
You wiil not be missed..

Ciaran500

Found a quote and thought it would go perfect in here in response to his Wii comment. Phil Harrison about the DS: "But I fear that it won't have a lasting impact beyond that of a gimmick - so the long-lasting appeal of the platform is at peril as a direct result of that."


Another thing I don't like about his blog is that he glosses over the 360 GPU is more powerful and goes straight onto the cell being great and seems to imply that 3 < 7 therefore the cell is better. But I assume its just badly worded rather than a complete misunderstanding of the cell.


Also he's describing the idea of making LBP levels like its nothing we've ever seen befeore. People have been making maps since the days of doom and more recently games like Trackmania let you build and share stuff with a few clicks, yet I never hear of developers developers calling them in the middle of the night if they make a top-rated level :rolleyes:

LookingFor

Ciaran500 wrote:

Another thing I don't like about his blog is that he glosses over the 360 GPU is more powerful and goes straight onto the cell being great

The reason why, I'm sure he would argue, is that the gap on the GPU side is small, the gap on the CPU side quite larger.

Ciaran500 wrote:

Also he's describing the idea of making LBP levels like its nothing we've ever seen befeore. People have been making maps since the days of doom and more recently games like Trackmania let you build and share stuff with a few clicks

LBP is unlike either of those concepts. Map-making for FPS games is relatively inaccessible and academic. You have to really learn a tool to do that properly. It's not a casual pursuit. Track design in trackmania is more accessible, but it is not embedded in the game itself as in LBP, and it is focussed on one kind of gameplay not under your control (racing), whereas in LBP you are to a greater extent forming the gameplay mechanics yourself. You still have clear limits, but you influence the gameplay mechanics. Further, what also makes LBP unique is that the creation aspect is the game to a large extent. It is taking some of the same concepts as you cite from the PC space, putting it in the console space, making it very casual and very accessible, elevating this to the core of the experience rather than a peripheral pursuit engaged in by just a portion of the audience, and backing it with a youtube-style community. In this way it certainly is unprecedented.

McDermotX

Ciaran500 wrote:

Found a quote and thought it would go perfect in here in response to his Wii comment. Phil Harrison about the DS: "But I fear that it won't have a lasting impact beyond that of a gimmick - so the long-lasting appeal of the platform is at peril as a direct result of that."


Another thing I don't like about his blog is that he glosses over the 360 GPU is more powerful and goes straight onto the cell being great and seems to imply that 3 < 7 therefore the cell is better. But I assume its just badly worded rather than a complete misunderstanding of the cell.


Also he's describing the idea of making LBP levels like its nothing we've ever seen befeore. People have been making maps since the days of doom and more recently games like Trackmania let you build and share stuff with a few clicks, yet I never hear of developers developers calling them in the middle of the night if they make a top-rated level :rolleyes:

I suppose everyone has their opinion on the Wii....whether good or bad....and its probably too much to call it a fad..
I like the Wii, but part of me knew buying it that it had a very probable "Gamecube" outlook.....i.e. a very small number of real quality titles..
The main attraction of the Wii for me was the Virtual Console.........a brilliant idea (a little overpriced at present though I might add), even with the multitude of emulators out there........my screens are nearly all filled with titles I bought over the service !
But I feel it will see a greater supply of games if only for the current install base which is huge. The problem is whether or not the quality will be there apart from the pure Nintendo games such as Mario and Zelda. We may see an influx of average/dull games from third-parties with a tacked on control system trying to compete with the same titles with their next-gen presentation on the other two, without any real control innovation..
I really hope third-parties will avoid this and show bravery to match Nintendo's innovation and provide the games..

Not the first person to be wrong about the DS either, Harrison..........seem to remember a lot of people laughing Nintendo off for providing a dual-screened system with above-GBA specs.........looking at how the DS has faired across Japan and the US (and Europe to a lesser extent), who's laughing now !


While impressed by LBP technically, I'm not as impressed but all this user level stuff either, but it may become a useful addon if people can adapt it easily and the network infrastructure is there similar to Live in sharing with friends etc..
Same way a 4 player online game needs to have a basic competitive game behind it rather than an "experimental user based experience".....but here's hoping !
Have this horrible feeling about the game when I was playing the most overrated game ever........"Ragdoll Kungfu".


On the GPU stuff, I'm not sure its essentially glossed over as such, more so that's an almost irrelevant argument considering the tech differences between the RSX and Xenos. The actual gains between the two are so slight, the hardware capabilities and pixel effects are so similar, its like comparing the ATI and Nvidia cards of similar family. The unified architecture of the 360 design may give it a slight edge, but chances are it will not be perceptible in first-party, let alone multi-platform titles..
The Cell vs. Xenon is a lot more involved with the familiarity of code definitely in favour of the 360 heart. Most coders will be more than familiar integrating a multi-core system around their current dev tools.
The Cell on the other hand is a completely different beast requiring a deep understanding of SPE support tasks and how to meld them together without "choking" the system, or not devoting enough resources to specific SPEs. This is the crux for the PS3 devs, they will need time and significant resources to exploit this to the full, it will probably remain out of reach for a lot of less experienced houses.
Those who do succeed will, in theory, see a jump in CPU grunt beyond what is available in consumer devices, but will multi-platform companies spend this time and money to develop their PS3 ports, or will PS3-led games suffer when ported to the 360 ?.............too early to say, but I think its safe to say that most games will be very similar to each other..

Good post Ciaran, maybe the thread can get back on track

Vegeta

I have to ask, hand on heart as I would honestly like to know. Do you LookingFor or McDermotX work for Sony or sell their products in any way shape or form???

Cause you guys are a little too intense to be just Playstation fans

I ask this with complete respect and mean no slight by it I am just wondering that's all.

LookingFor

Vegeta wrote:

I have to ask, hand on heart as I would honestly like to know. Do you LookingFor or McDermotX work for Sony or sell their products in any way shape or form???

Cause you guys are a little too intense to be just Playstation fans

I ask this with complete respect and mean no slight by it I am just wondering that's all.

I'm sure.

This is a board to discuss Playstation, correct? Don't you think it would attract Playstation fans? What's so unusual, then, about the enthusiasm of those who might post here for those products?

Would you not perhaps find the motives of some others more suspicious? Those whose presence here seems solely focussed on negativity? I won't name any names like you have, simply because that is rude, but I would wonder more about those who are here, and yet seem to have no genuine interest in Playstation. And there certainly are such people! Seems likely someone would be more likely to have to pay them to be here, than someone with a genuine liking or interest in a product.

McDermotX

LookingFor wrote:

I'm sure.

This is a board to discuss Playstation, correct? Don't you think it would attract Playstation fans? What's so unusual, then, about the enthusiasm of those who might post here for those products?

Would you not perhaps find the motives of some others more suspicious? Those whose presence here seems solely focussed on negativity? I won't name any names like you have, simply because that is rude, but I would wonder more about those who are here, and yet seem to have no genuine interest in Playstation. And there certainly are such people! Seems likely someone would be more likely to have to pay them to be here, than someone with a genuine liking or interest in a product.

Well said LookingFor..

McDermotX

Vegeta wrote:

I have to ask, hand on heart as I would honestly like to know. Do you LookingFor or McDermotX work for Sony or sell their products in any way shape or form???

Cause you guys are a little too intense to be just Playstation fans

I ask this with complete respect and mean no slight by it I am just wondering that's all.

LOL Vegeta,

of course not..........I only posted the blog post as it was a decently written personal viewpoint with reasonings both sound and solid..
I certainly didn't agree with everything the Hastings fella put down on paper, but much of it rang true..

I find it funny that I would be called a "fanboi" as I've been involved with nearly every machine going since the VCS and Apple II, and have no allegiance to anybody. More so, I love the PS3 and the 360's ultimate aim to provide excellent entertainment. I always laugh when I see posts containing PS3 is best, 360 is king blah blah blah.....with nothing to back it up or worse, not experiencing the system being put down !!
Its almost like they have a business level financial interest in the platform's viability beyond their initial purchase !!
What I find worse, is not debating the topics at hand but rather dismissing things immediately due to the person's business bias or worse still, their own bias whether pro or anti..

Without repeating myself, I appreciate it when people target the topics the man touched upon whether they agree or not.......everyones different, if they feel Blu-ray, for example, is a reason why the PS3 won't succeed as opposed to the man's view that it is a primary reason why it will, then tell us why..
Leave it to the "fanboys", so to speak, to resort to simple generalities like we saw earlier..

Cheers..

steviec

McDermotX wrote:

I find it funny that I would be called a "fanboi" as I've been involved with nearly every machine going since the VCS and Apple II, and have no allegiance to anybody. More so, I love the PS3 and the 360's ultimate aim to provide excellent entertainment. I always laugh when I see posts containing PS3 is best, 360 is king blah blah blah.....with nothing to back it up or worse, not experiencing the system being put down !!

Well said. I've been accused of bias here too even though I bought all three machines at launch. It seems to apply only to Sony, I can say positive things about other consoles and thats fine, but if I say something positive about the PS3 then suddenly I'm biased. It's just fashionable to hate Sony at the moment. But apart from the price(which isn't all that bad, if you buy a console at launch you'll be using it for 5-6 years and you'll long forget a 100 quid initial difference. If you don't buy it at launch, it'll come down sooner or later) they're doing most things right.

Online isn't nearly as bad as people claim and will only get better. The cheaper downloadables, accessories, games, and free online play all pull back some of the initial outlay so in the long term it won't cost you any more than a 360. The launch titles are the strongest launch list of any of the three consoles(this is obviously subjective, but 1up I believe was the site that got average metacritic review scores of the launch titles on all three consoles and found the PS3 had the highest average and the most games over 80% IIRC) so it's had a healthy start in terms of games. And Sony have some fantastic first party development studios and still have stronger third party support than Microsoft even if the gap is closing from last gen.

So all in all the PS3 will be just fine. The 360 will gain a ton of ground compared to last generation, but that's because the 360 is a great console, not because the PS3 isn't.

McDermotX

steviec wrote:

So all in all the PS3 will be just fine. The 360 will gain a ton of ground compared to last generation, but that's because the 360 is a great console, not because the PS3 isn't.

Thats how I see this playing out Stevie, well said..
Its hard to see any console dominating the market the way PS1 and PS2 did, the competition is tough and the lessons are learned.....I think the Wii will settle down over the next year or so with a huge install base, and the PS3 will start to make inroads against the 360 (but it may get to a stage where the 360 and PS3 will enjoy the slight edge in different territories)..
Content is key, with both systems having excellent line-ups in their exclusive fields and multiplatform releases, and you really can't go wrong with either system if you are only limited to the one console. Nice to have the best of both worlds though..

Vegeta

steviec wrote:

Well said. I've been accused of bias here too even though I bought all three machines at launch.

Just because you own all three doesn't mean you don't prefer one over the others.

Anway, LookingFor sorry if you took offence but it is quite clear you are a fan of playstaion (by your own admittance) so I was just wondering were you on anyones payroll. I don't like debating with people who have their own agenda. I know of at least one Sony employee (again by his own admittance) who is very pro playstation and is practically famous around here for it. A good shill would go to a lot of effort to seem like a regular poster.

McDermotX you say you don't like 360 vs PS3 mindless debates but that's what this thread was always going to be. The original post was a very biased persons opinion in a very biased forum so immediately it was impossible to have a proper debate on it. A lot of people myself included would like to counter some of the points made in the original post but its an exercise in futility. The first point I would make is that the author of the piece is not unbiased.

I am of the opinion that only playstation material should be talked about in the playstation forum and same with the xbox forum. Any reference to any other brand of console and the post is moved to the more general games forum or the content is deleted.

McDermotX

Vegeta wrote:

McDermotX you say you don't like 360 vs PS3 mindless debates but that's what this thread was always going to be. The original post was a very biased persons opinion in a very biased forum so immediately it was impossible to have a proper debate on it. A lot of people myself included would like to counter some of the points made in the original post but its an exercise in futility. The first point I would make is that the author of the piece is not unbiased.

I am of the opinion that only playstation material should be talked about in the playstation forum and same with the xbox forum. Any reference to any other brand of console and the post is moved to the more general games forum or the content is deleted.

Vegeta,
while I can appreciate your comments, I think the whole point of the thread has been missed again..
The mindless debates I refer to are the ones seen in nearly every section of games on Boards, AV Forums, AVS Forums etc where certain people claim that their machine is best, PS3 is going to sell more, 360 is tops etc etc, without any real content to back up their argument..
This thread was an attempt to show how one developer felt and was reprinted as such..........I gave the people here the opportunity to discuss whether or not his sentiments were accurate i.e. why the PS3 will succeed..
In many ways it doesn't matter whether or not his position is biased towards his main benefactor, as people would have fun poking holes in his predictions to show them as inherently flawed..

Unfortunately this didn't happen, we had a succession of accusations of bias and that the post was not worth debunking, even though every single one of his arguments could be disputed..............all because his opinion differed from theirs, or because people were afraid they would be shot down for expressing their own take on his topics.

Some lads (thank you, by the way) offered their own valid views on a couple of subjects to which I responded (not claiming I was right, or slapping their view down as wrong...just my own take on it)........problem is, some people are taking it the wrong way, claiming its fanboy bias at work here trying to justify another biased opinion. If you believe any of his statements can be argued, by all means throw up your own views and people can debate the issues. Just to back away from it as some have, citing bias and there's no point discussing things does a disservice to the very notion of free speech on forums..

Vegeta,
you make a point of stating you would like to counter his observations, yet the only point you make is that his view is bias
That's fine, but irrelevant to the argument......the man offered 10 reasons why he thinks the PS3 will succeed........and the major counter-reasoning is bias ? Not delving into any reasons as to why people think the machine won't succeed..
Seeing as how the PS3 and 360 are competing for the same market, its only valid comparisons will be made. If one succeeds completely it will be to the detriment of the other.......make no mistake, there are linked to one another..
If your reasons are sound and counter the PS3 bias you see so evidently here, rest assured, at least this person will take on board what is said..........I cannot promise the same for everyone else who reads it, but I never rule out any well put argument for any side of the debate..

As you may recall, I called for this thread (my own) to be locked a couple of times already when the discussion turned this way, but due to a couple of valid posts from people I tried to keep things going, respecting their opinion..
If people cannot respect the opinion of others, then they have no place on forums discussing topics maturely..
This isn't an attack on you Vegeta by any means, as your words make sense, more a summation of what has been seen here over the last couple of days on a thread where the original intent has been avoided at all costs..

Ste05

Vegeta wrote:

A lot of people myself included would like to counter some of the points made in the original post but its an exercise in futility. The first point I would make is that the author of the piece is not unbiased.

Karmafaerie wrote:

As Ciaran and I both pointed out this is because I have no intention of spending ten minutes writing something out if you're just going to try and get into an argument,

Stormbringer wrote:

There are so many holes in this statement one could be here all day picking through them. I dont have the time nor the inclination to do so.

I really wish more people would just counter some of his claims instead of just talking about doing it. The more and more Anti-PS3 people who keep posting similar comments, actually makes it look more and more believable, because it seems obvious that you don't actually have any points to make apart from the fact that he's biased.

Ciaran500

I'm not Anti-PS3 (will be getting one during the summer if the games are there for it) but I don't think alot of what he said was right. Most points have been countered at this stage anyway.

Anyway, the points that are left:

4. Casino Royale
I just can't see HD-DVD or Blu-ray taking off like dvd so IMO this is a mute point. Most people that would buy a PS3 for blu-ray would of ended up with one anyway, that the type of market they sell to.
Microsoft video marketplace is proving very popular aswell and I can only see it getting bigger.

5. HDMI
The general public doesn't know about connections and I can see alot of consumers sticking with composite just cause its what comes in the box. The elite should counter this in the long term anyway.


6. Standard HDD
Devs can code to use the HDD if its there and leave people with longer loading times if its not there (e.g. Oblivion) and alot of the PS3 games are using this method. You can install games files on the HDD for faster loading or live with the load times.

Besides I can see more and more games requiring a HDD as the premiums are far more popular.

9. PS2 still outselling 360
And so it should, now is a great time to get one. The people buying a PS2 now will not be looking to buy a next generation console for years and you can't predict how times are going to change as the generation moves on.

10. Something For Everyone
As he says MS is moving into this ground as well and we should see more and more variety of games as the year goes on, just like the PS3 is going to take a while for its wide range of games to become available.