Live Omaha hand between two slightly less than sober Atari Jaguars

Marq

Scene: Fitz 50 omaha at 4am. Game is playing moderately big. There's one player on monkeytilt who's open-raising/re-raising every hand preflop. Game is eight handed

Villian in this hand is dappergent in the BB. when he's not a total donk he's a solid LAG. I've played with him a lot, and I think he's tricky. I think he understands the concepts behind Omaha better than most, and his reading of possible hand ranges is better than most too; not that I'm saying he's any good at the game.
Hero is yours truly.

The gent has between 600 and 700 AFAIR. I cover by two million or so.
I'm the small blind with JJ45ds.

Preflop:3 limps, tilter makes it 5 from cut-off, button folds, I call from the SB, Dapper makes it 25 from the BB, 3 calls (!) and I call.

FLOP (€125): 3-3-3
I check, villian bets €75. Everyone else folds.

Hero: ???

What's your plan for the hand?

careca

Dapper would probably play AAxx this way. Question is , how would you play the hand if you have the case 3. I think you're safe enough to repop it or alteratively call his bet and bet the turn WHEN (not if) he checks.

now to go away and think the hand from Dappers mind

Marq

I'm out of position.
Rossa could have aces, or he could have a hand that has absolutely no showdown value like 789T or AKJT. I think his bet on the flop is a pretty standard continuation bet.

LuckyLloyd

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Flipper

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Scare cards are AKQ.

Why? If's he's AA, KK or QQ, you're beat anyway.

I hate your hand here. I'd give up pretty easy. Your starting hand is not all that good (rarely makes the nuts) and unless I catch a jack or an A23 flop, I pretty much shut down.

EDIT: As played, it's very read dependant but I MIGHT call and judge by his turn actions. Obv enough, he can only have 3xxx, AAxx, KKxx, QQxx, or the other JJxx - otherwise you're miles ahead

LuckyLloyd

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valor

uh where does he say that?

Goodluck2me

why is an A,K or Q a scare card lloyd? those hands dont make him a house. in fact AKQ are probably good cards for us as it means he is less likely to have the pair. the 4th 3 is also a good card for us imo. you realise its 2 from your hand lloyd?
the only reason a K or Q would be a bad card is if he wasnt sure if we had AAxx or not and he improved, but i doubt he would put us on that here as we didnt repop it when we had the chance.

kpnuts

Fold preflop.

Fold flop.

Even if Marq has a strong read, and I don't think he said he does here, going by reads when you are "less than sober" is not clever, especially when your holding is this weak.

Marq

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Flipper - I would dump too. But Marq has given us a very specific read in that he doesn't believe villain has AA KK QQ. If that is the read, who are we to argue?

I never said that. I just said he's capable of betting with any of those hands and other hands that were good preflop but now have no showdown value.

One thing that I was almost sure of was that he didn't have the case three.

A three would be an appalling turn card for me joe.

Ken, ignore that I was less than sober. that's my standard state for playing cards these last three months.

LuckyLloyd

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Goodluck2me

Marq wrote:

A three would be an appalling turn card for me joe.

why?

kpnuts

goodluck2me wrote:

why?

because having the 3 is the only hand we can credibly represent here. Anyone at the table would know that Marq would happily take the invitation to stick in a gigantic rereraise preflop if he has AAxx. IF, and it's a big IF, Marq decides to make a play here, a turn 3 completely rumbles him!

Goodluck2me

kpnuts wrote:

because having the 3 is the only hand we can credibly represent here. Anyone at the table would know that Marq would happily take the invitation to stick in half his stack preflop if he has AAxx. IF, and it's a big IF, Marq decides to make a play here, a turn 3 completely rumbles him!

thats what i thought, i was just hoping noone would say well that means AKQJ beat us or something stupid.
so then if you are goin to represent the 3 here, you are essentially bluffing, so why bother tell us your hand? why not say "good spot to bluff"? your hand has pretty good showdown value, albeit not the may west preflop. if you think you are ahead why do you have to represent the 3?
The reason i said the 3 was a good card was becuase i thoughy marq thought he was ahead and it meant there was one less hand beating us.

kpnuts

goodluck2me wrote:

i was just hoping noone would say well that means AKQJ beat us or something stupid

that's unlikely now, as Lloyd has shut down his omaha consultancy services!

Goodluck2me

kpnuts wrote:

that's unlikely now, as Lloyd has shut down his omaha consultancy services!

ya lol. sure any Ace, king or Queen beats us now...:rolleyes:

LuckyLloyd

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Marq

kpnuts wrote:

Anyone at the table would know that Marq would happily take the invitation to stick in a gigantic rereraise preflop if he has AAxx.

Yes, usually. It would be possible for me to have disguised AA here because I knew that I would be out of position for the whole hand and would need to hit something to continue post-flop. also the stacks were very deep, and if I raised AA to 150 there and Dapper called, I imagine at least two others would have too.

But you're right, most people at the table wouldn't put me on aces.

Let's say you call the flop bet, and the turn is a blank.
I check, Dapper bets 200 into a pot of 275.
Me???

This is what I really wanted to ask.

Lafortezza

Prob fold preflop.

Otherwise, raise flop to 175-200 total.
If Dapper reraises flop then you have an easy fold, if he calls your flop raise then I'd be mostly shutting down on the turn with out a strong read.

If he has AAxx/KKxx/3xxx he's going no where. Problem for you if you just call the flop is that he'll easily keep firing on the turn, possibly the river depending on his read of you.

Also if you raise there's a chance he can fold a better hand like QQTJ or KKxx sometimes.
So raise or fold the flop for me.

ditpoker

lol @ lloyd

bohsman

Fold preflop, fold the flop. What hand is he betting the turn with? any 3, AA, a complete bluff? KK, QQ in the complete bluff range?

cardshark202

Don't fold preflop. You guys are insane. Fold the flop though.

ianmc38

From my experience online with DonkeyGent, his range here is absolutey massive. it's by no means AAxx/KKxx only. I've also seen him fire numerous large barrels with absolute air. I would definitely call the flop. He can have 5678ds here. The turn is a bit trickier, as I think your hand is clearly JJ/QQxx, maybe KKxx. I think he knows you dont have AAxx and probably not KKxx as I guess you're likely to reraise both these hands preflop. I'm inclinded to call the turn as well, but it' a very marginal decision.If you think he can fire a pot sized 3rd barrel with air on the river, then I'd probably just fold the turn....

bops

don't fold preflop

dunno about the flop - i suppose it's just read dependent

he could easily have 3xxx here, often the best way to get paid with the nuts is to bet it (disguises your hand much better than check calling etc)

Marq

ianmc38 wrote:

From my experience online with DonkeyGent, his range here is absolutey massive. it's by no means AAxx/KKxx only. I've also seen him fire numerous large barrels with absolute air. I would definitely call the flop. He can have 5678ds here. The turn is a bit trickier, as I think your hand is clearly JJ/QQxx, maybe KKxx. I think he knows you dont have AAxx and probably not KKxx as I guess you're likely to reraise both these hands preflop. I'm inclinded to call the turn as well, but it' a very marginal decision.If you think he can fire a pot sized 3rd barrel with air on the river, then I'd probably just fold the turn....

Yeah I think you need to have played with Dapper a bit to appreciate why I posted this hand. I reckoned that he was more likely to have made the raise preflop with 5678 etc than KKxx or QQxx. Obviously Aces are equally likely. I expected that if he had a big hand like 3x or AA he would fire again on the river but he would check all other hands. In fact I thought he would shut down on the turn after I called the flop bet, but I was wrong, which is what really made the hand interesting for me.

My original plan for the hand was to either check-raise bluff the turn or lead bluff the river, representing a three. The turn was actually a jack, giving me the second nuts, and I check-raised anyway hoping that he had aces, but he folded instantly and later told me he had 4567 or some other such crap.

What would you do with Dapper's hand on the flop and turn? Plans for the river?

Marq

I can't believe so many people would fold preflop getting better than 5:1 odds on a hand with a high pair, two connecting cards and two suits. The implied odds are also big, as is the potential to get away without investing any more on the flop.

Gholimoli

Marq with thoes stacks you really need to make your decesion on the flop how you are going to play the hand.
if you think he is capable of making a pot size bet on the turn with air but he would also do it with a hand that beat yours then i dont like just calling on the flop.
i think you should fold it or raise the flop.

if you think its not likely for him to fire a second barrel with air then i prefer just calling.
eitherway i dont like the CR on the turn .

RoundTower

I'd probably call preflop in the Fitz, online I'd fold.

I'd probably just fold the flop, if I called I'd probably have some silly bluffy plan like checkraise the turn and shove the river, or give up if he checks behind the turn.