wtf Is this allowed

sikes

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP ($206.55)
CO ($3.55)
Button ($195.50)
Hero ($236.30)
BB ($136.10)
UTG ($84.40)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T, 6.
UTG calls $2, 1 fold, CO raises to $3.55---ALLIN, Button calls $3.55, Hero calls $2.55, BB calls $1.55, UTG raises to $24, Button folds, Hero folds, BB folds.

DubTony

Has it got something to do with the fact that the CO's raise is less than a min-raise?

Goodluck2me

Probably was a $1.55 raise and the SB was $1 BB $2 so over $1 raise is allowed no?

sikes

goodluck2me wrote:

Probably was a $1.55 raise and the SB was $1 BB $2 so over $1 raise is allowed no?

why cant i raise to $3.01 preflop then?

i am pretty sure this is a mistake on stars part but i could be wrong.

Mellor

no its not allowed, its not a full raise so the betting isn't reoped to the UTG player, its a glitch in the software on a number of sites

ArmaniJeanss

I understand the underraise rule and hows it generally implemented, and this hand is an example of hows it works different online than live.

However I think the 'software ruling' on the hand above is the fairest way to impement it... utg is doing a simple limp-reraise and just because the initial raise is an underraise shouldn't prevent him doing so.

ozpoker

The issue at hand is what all in raise amount reopens the betting. This amount is different in different locales and games.

1) For NL (and PL), here in Ireland (and UK?), the all in raise needs to be double the last total bet to reopen the betting

2) For NL in the US, the all in raise needs to be the size of the last raise (not total bet)

3) For limit in the US, the all in raise has to be 50% or more of the current bet

I've been to rooms in the US that used rule 3) for NL games, but they were the exception. Rule 2) is nearly universal. It looks like PS software uses rule 3) for all games. While unconventional, it's not unheard of. It's obviously important to know which rule a room uses and play accordingly.

-Oz-

Mellor

ozpoker wrote:

1) For NL (and PL), here in Ireland (and UK?), the all in raise needs to be double the last total bet to reopen the betting

No it isn't. It has to be the size of the last bet.
Not double.
Not total bet.
It the bet is 50, raised to 100. the next min raise makes it 150 total. by your way (double the last total bet) it would need to be 300.
This is a common problem amoung badly run games. and its spreads quickly in the pub game circles.
the other version of the raise rule used wrong in ireland is the min rasie is always the BB regardless previous action, this is also common on the pub circle, normally older semi drunk stubborn men bring it out when then reraise 1000 to 1100.

Oh and welcome to boards.

ozpoker

Perhaps some semantic confusion here. My understanding of what the minimum total amount raised to under rule 1) is double the total of the last bet. If the blinds are 25-50, and someone raises to 100 (a raise of 50) the minimum total raised amount that reopens the betting under:

- rule 1): 200 (double the last total bet)
- rule 2): 150 (at least the amount of the last raise)
- rule 3): 125 (at least 50% of the last raise)

Another example. If someone raises to 200 (a raise of 150), the total amount bet that reopens the betting is:

- rule 1): 400
- rule 2): 350
- rule 3): 275

Apologies for not making this clearer.

As an aside, I once played in a silly free tourney at a bar that had the "min raise is any amount" rule. After explaining why this was a bad rule to the organizers and getting nowhere, a friend and me pulled this little stunt. The blinds were 15-25, and when it became obvious that we were going to be heads up in a pot, we both took huge amounts of time staring each other down and raising by 5. This took about 5 minutes going back and forth before the rest of the customers forced the organizers to change the rule.

-Oz

bohsman

Mellor wrote:

No it isn't. It has to be the size of the last bet.
Not double.
Not total bet.
It the bet is 50, raised to 100. the next min raise makes it 150 total.

No, the next min raise is 200, then 400, 800, 1600 etc.

Mellor

bohsman wrote:

No, the next min raise is 200, then 400, 800, 1600 etc.

thats what is played in some places, but it is wrong.
i know everyplace can have house rules.
on the flop blinds 25/50, bets 50, net person raises to 100 total (a raise of 50, equal last bet) the next person has the option to make it 150 (min raise of 50 again)
a perfect example of irish and uk culture messing up the rules

5starpool

Mellor wrote:

thats what is played in some places, but it is wrong.
i know everyplace can have house rules.
on the flop blinds 25/50, bets 50, net person raises to 100 total (a raise of 50, equal last bet) the next person has the option to make it 150 (min raise of 50 again)
a perfect example of irish and uk culture messing up the rules

He wasn't saying what was 'correct' he was just saying what was the case in Ireland, for right or wrong, and he was correct so your disagreement isn't really relevant to his post as he basically said that there are different ways to do it.

Marq

There are no standardized rules of poker. Nothing is correct or incorrect.
FWIW I think the Irish system is much, much better.

Mellor

Marq wrote:

There are no standardized rules of poker. Nothing is correct or incorrect.
FWIW I think the Irish system is much, much better.

You're right Marq, theres no stadard rules, as you said nothing is right or wrong, both ways are used in ireland and its generally up to the house.
Agree that the Irish method is better, from a strategy point of view min raising (US-format) is very bad. So forcing players to act outside of this (irish system) improves their game automaticly. Thats why i'd prefere the US way.

ozpoker

The impact of this rule goes beyond forcing min-raising monkies to play better. Knowing which rule is in place and knowing when the betting gets reopened has huge impacts on your choice of actions.

In a tourney in Dublin last week, I limped for 300 with A2d in the cutoff after 2 other limpers. The button made it 900 to go, the big blind called, the limpers folded and I called. On a 9 high flop with 2 diamonds, the big blind lead out for 2500. The button had exactly 5000 left, so I was forced to fold because if the button went all in (likely), the big blind could then reraise and freeze me out getting insufficient odds. If the button had anything less than 5000 left, I could have considered a call.

-Oz-