What I Dislike About Irish Racing...

Robin1982

I hate/dislike...

• The absense of any type of promotion or drive behind more sophisticated form analysis; all we get are one-liner "tips", race times are unreliable, the information given back to the punter/investor is minimal
  
• The Racetracks; too expensive, rubbish facilities, terrible viewing areas, closed off areas for the privileged, terrible technical investment plans.
  
• Handicaps - especially the 20+ runner ones; they take too much time to study and promote horses being sandbagged throughout a season. Would prefer claiming-type of system.
  
• Large Bookmaker Overrounds; often worse than the similarly extortionist Tote takeouts, controlled by the few, far from transparent market. The weakness of the betting exchange markets is also lamentable.
  
• The Way Horses are Trained/Campaigned; whispers for this, whispers for that, connections constantly looking for a "touch", the average racing fan feels out of the loop
  
• The Popularity of Each-Way Betting; or alternatively, Bookmakers don't take Place bets; perhaps the most inefficiently used betting type used by the general public.
  
• The Popularity of Accumulators; the lotto mentality.
  
• The Dominance of Coolmore on the Flat - practically omnipotent.
  
• The lack of a Polytrack racetrack - watching horses slog through the mud for 4 months a year is depressing

HiCloy

Robin1982 wrote:

I hate/dislike...

• The Racetracks; too expensive, rubbish facilities, terrible viewing areas, closed off areas for the privileged, terrible technical investment plans.
  
• The lack of a Polytrack racetrack - watching horses slog through the mud for 4 months a year is depressing

I disagree with the 2 above - I prefer heavy ground chases to all weather racing anyday, I think many Irish racescourses have great views, and few have reserved enclosures, only on the very big days. I don't think going racing live is overly expensive either

Agree with pretty much everything else. The food at most tracks is terrible

wb

The lack of a Polytrack racetrack - watching horses slog through the mud for 4 months a year is depressing

Dundalk (AW) is opening Late August.

I agree with some of the above. I think the catering facilities at Irish tracks are terrible. Sadly, I know more about British racing simply because it's easier to research and there is more data available. The handicap fields are usually very big here too.

knighted

[*]The Way Horses are Trained/Campaigned; whispers for this, whispers for that, connections constantly looking for a "touch", the average racing fan feels out of the loop


some ****e spoken here -u pay the bills and im sure u will be kept in the 'loop'

i will ask jp to personally give u a ring b4 he places his bets so u can get on

as for overpriced racetracks -top price for reserved enclosure at punchestown or galway festivals is about 35 euros -reserved in cheltenham is 120 euros /80 sterling so no complaints from me


may i suggest taking on another paper round

HiCloy

knighted wrote:

as for overpriced racetracks -top price for reserved enclosure at punchestown or galway festivals is about 35 euros -reserved in cheltenham is 120 euros /80 sterling so no complaints from me

Galway doesn't even have a reserved enclosure - must suggest that to cheltenham/ascot management! (It has reserved seating i know...)

knighted

sorry meant to say the other kildare track the curragh (50euros on derby day)

knighted

and i dont think i paid more than 30 euros in to leopardstown for pierce/champion/henessy reserved

Robin1982

knighted wrote:

[*]The Way Horses are Trained/Campaigned; whispers for this, whispers for that, connections constantly looking for a "touch", the average racing fan feels out of the loop

some ****e spoken here -u pay the bills and im sure u will be kept in the 'loop'

i will ask jp to personally give u a ring b4 he places his bets so u can get on

Not really my point. I'm more thinking of places like Australia, Hong Kong and the US where training data and performances are available to the general public. Here, we have a champion in Sublimity, who ran once before Cheltenham in an Open Hurdle yet went off at 16/1 in the CH. Personally, I can't see how anyone could back him with any confidence at that price, yet many did. For a Champion like Sublimity, I felt entirely removed from knowing about his actual ability until I saw him lead up that hill. Not even a clue.

knighted wrote:

as for overpriced racetracks -top price for reserved enclosure at punchestown or galway festivals is about 35 euros -reserved in cheltenham is 120 euros /80 sterling so no complaints from me

Once again, it depends against what you are comparing. Against Cheltenham or Royal Ascot, Ireland seems cheap. However, I've been racing in America and France, where entry was a couple of euros and they threw in free racing form. The facilities, especially the catering, were excellent and there were a lot fewer drunk people. Now of course this was a function of the Tote monopolies there, but for the vast majority of people actually attending the races, this didn't matter to them.

Paying €25+ for entry when going racing in Ireland for what you get, just doesn't appeal much.

fade2black

Accums like lucky 15s are handy for those who want to spend a little and have an interest in a spread of races. They may be the bookie's favourite bets, but they cost very little, as opposed to having a single bet on each race.

You're forgetting about the people who only have a passing interest in racing - in my opinion you're showing a very snobbish attitude to racing in this country and forgetting that it couldn't survive without the casual visitors, i.e, families, etc.

In saying that, it's hard to argue with the majority of your other points. With regard to the large handicaps, that really can't be helped without the adding of more fixtures. In fact, a lot of your points up there won't really be helped without more regular racing dates.

TOm Kelly

The people who run horse racing should go to the dogs.

Robin1982

TOm Kelly wrote:

The people who run horse racing should go to the dogs.

I think you are dead right. IMO, horse racing is a vastly superior product to greyhound racing but you only have to see the success of Shelbourne Park to see somewhere that really concentrates on the customer.

The point of this thread was for me to say what things I think should change for horse racing to survive in Ireland. Because I don't think they are running it anywhere near as well as it should be.

fr wishy washy

I think non-triers/schooling is a huge problem here,its so widespread now I think we've all become immune to it.
There are numerous races run here (particularly big field Maiden Hurdles) where upwards of 6 or 7 horses will never get into the race (or be asked to) at any stage.

masterK

I'm agreed on a lot of the points, if you look at the facilities at our flagship courses such as the Curragh and Leopardstown they don't even compare with mediocre tracks such as Towcester in the UK, never mind Ascot. For the average joe soap who would like to bring his family for a day at the races and maybe some dinner the costs would be prohibitive.

Many of the minor English tracks offer free entry to racing, you often see absolutely packed stands at very poor summer jumps meeting, that's surely something to think about.

As for the racing itself, I think the National Hunt in the main is reasonable enough, from both a quality and a form point of view. I've very little time for Irish flat racing, the pure lack of information is a real put off to a punter. It can be very difficult to find out standard times, race times, draw advantage etc. for any Irish race course. I also find form analysis quite difficult, maybe it's just me but the form doesn't seem to work out the same way it does in the Uk, whether that's down to non triers etc. I don't know.

I do often wonder with so many empty racing days on the calendar why a lot of the meetings are not split instead of having 20 runner handicaps, I'd much prefer to see 2x10 runner handicaps.

The whole whispers/in the know thing is really annoying to any form student, you spend time studying the form on a racecard only to see a horse with little or no form being backed off the boards and bolt up.

Colonel Sanders

I dislike the way certain stables/jockeys/connections are untouchable by the authorities yet some of the smaller trainers/amateur jockeys will be crucified for any 'non triers'.

Over rounds are a joke but until the game is cleaned up this will not change. Look at any maiden hurdle with a good bumper horse in it or a beginners chase with a decent hurdler in it. The fav will be allowed go off in front and the 'chasing pack' will resemble a slow bicycle race. Jockeys having a chat amongst themselves etc. I'd say if you stopped them and offered em a cup of tea they'd take it!!! Cheating exists in all sports especialy where there is gambling involved but the fact that its so blatant and for the most part goes unpunished in ireland is the biggest joke.

I hate the way racing in general (not just irish racing) bends over backwards for bookies. Look at the new SP system. Lord Donohoe is on record as saying 'margins are none of our business'. what a joke. bookies were happy with the old system pre betfair when over rounds were hideous. the same system is now unsatisfactory because margins have fallen. All the switch was was an attempt to postpone the innevitable arrival of industry SPs. Another case is how many tims have we been denied seeing a top class novice chase/hurdle on a televised card because bookies prefer big field handicpas to be shown. They complain that without their contributions racing woud die. Well without owners and punters they would not have a product on which to offer any service.

I hate the way bookies seem to be a law onto themselves. Look at the new rules introduced in January 2005 re. printed tickets, advertising what they will lay a horse to lose etc. These rules were and still are blatantly flaunted by bookies. hat does HRI do about it? Very little. A ring inspector should be present at every irish meeting to enforce rules, investigate breaches and hand out sanctios (suspensions and/or on the spot fines).

Irish racing is its own worst enemy IMO. Admission prices aren't exactly bad but its the rip off culture inside thats the problem. 2.50 for a bottle of water at leopardstown, EUR9 for a role with a two sausages and rashers. HRI have put a lot of marketing in but the bottom line is for an individual/family who are just a casual race goer a day's racing is a bad value day out.

kincsem

Robin1982 wrote:

I hate/dislike...
The absense of any type of promotion or drive behind more sophisticated form analysis; all we get are one-liner "tips", race times are unreliable, the information given back to the punter/investor is minimal

The market is too small, although Turform do a good job. I buy their flat annual every year. Race times on the flat are correct as far as I know.

Robin1982 wrote:

The Racetracks; too expensive, rubbish facilities, terrible viewing areas, closed off areas for the privileged, terrible technical investment plans.

Entrance fees are a bit high. The Curragh was in very poor shape about 15 years ago but a lot of Government money has changed that. Also a new stand at Naas. You have to pay for the "closed off areas". I had a Curragh season ticket for about ten years, so I paid for a segregated area (some seats, mostly standing).

Robin1982 wrote:

Handicaps - especially the 20+ runner ones; they take too much time to study and promote horses being sandbagged throughout a season. Would prefer claiming-type of system.

I never invest more than one or two Euro in a handicap. They are designed so all horses finish together. I bet on Group races, or maidens where my pedigree knowledge gives me an edge.

Robin1982 wrote:

Large Bookmaker Overrounds; often worse than the similarly extortionist Tote takeouts, controlled by the few, far from transparent market. The weakness of the betting exchange markets is also lamentable.

Use Betfair, or stand in the ring and bet when the price is good (in your opinion). Also go in and out to the Tote screen, and bet there if the odds are better.

Robin1982 wrote:

he Way Horses are Trained/Campaigned; whispers for this, whispers for that, connections constantly looking for a "touch", the average racing fan feels out of the loop

Stick to Group races. The horses are trying, as the increase in stud value outweight the prizemoney, or any possible touch.

Robin1982 wrote:

The Popularity of Each-Way Betting; or alternatively, Bookmakers don't take Place bets; perhaps the most inefficiently used betting type used by the general public.

I seldom bet for a place, but I often look at the Tote odds. Years ago someone put £1500 on Harayir in the 1000 Guineas at the Curragh (about £5k total pool). I backed Ridgewood Pearl (1st) and Harayir was 4th. A good dividend for little risk.

Robin1982 wrote:

The Popularity of Accumulators; the lotto mentality.

I like accumulators. If you have an edge the dividend can be good. €1100 for a €30 treble at Leopardstown, and €2850 for a €10 double at Royal Ascot; €1600 for a €100 double at Epsom (all about 3 years ago).

Robin1982 wrote:

The Dominance of Coolmore on the Flat - practically omnipotent.

Agreed. It distorts the market.

terry mac

Not really that annoyed at bookies, if I back a winner I back a winner $$$.

More racing calendar things that I dislike:

The fact that all the festivals are all too long, just trying to get every last penny out of the racing fan and diluting the quality of racing. Punch, Leopardstown, Galway etc.

The huge increase in NH graded races over the last few years, seriously devaluing them as races to be won.

TOm Kelly

On the plus side, I think the best thing that has happened to Irish racing over the past ten or fifteen years has been the growth of syndicate owned horses.

Brings racing to the average Joe or Joan ... there have been some terrific success stories - don't know the stats but I would expect that a lot of trainers would be in trouble without their syndicate owners.

wb

TOm Kelly wrote:

On the plus side, I think the best thing that has happened to Irish racing over the past ten or fifteen years has been the growth of syndicate owned horses.

Brings racing to the average Joe or Joan ... there have been some terrific success stories - don't know the stats but I would expect that a lot of trainers would be in trouble without their syndicate owners.

A prime example being Brave Inca.

TOm Kelly

Another one I know personally is Rathgar Beau ... they bought it for 7 grand - won nearly half a million - beat Moscow Flyer -

... it got them to mix in the parade ring with JP etc in Leopardstown - Punchestown - Aintree - Cheltenham ... a Real Fairytale ...

They have another one now ... cost about 30 grand ... well paid for by the Beau ... Rathgar Storm.

allin-king

Maybe the OP should take up another hobby if he feels the need to start a thread like this? Also the fact you would want to have a serious punt on a 20+ runner handicap is beyond me. If I were you I'd spend about 10 seconds on these races.

wb

allin-king wrote:

Maybe the OP should take up another hobby if he feels the need to start a thread like this?

I don't want to pre-empt the op's thoughts, but I think the point being made is that there are a lot of improvements that could be made. All of us here love racing, and it is a hobby for most of us. However, we are free to criticise it's bad points - especially as the BHB in the UK have got it right on certain things compared to our equivalent (HRI).


You can still love a sport, yet have criticisms of it.


I know I do.

Last time I was at Leopardstown, I paid nearly a tenner for a horrible beef roll.

allin-king

Don't get me wrong WB I also agree that improvements could be made in Irish racing. I was more refering to his opinions on accums, yankees. Why does it would bother him that someone might want to have a interest in a couple of races by doing a 50c yankee / accum etc? I personally don't like yankees either but when I first got into racing they were an enjoyable way of having a few bets on a Saturday. Very snobbish attitude on OP's part.

Also his points about whispers and owners looking for a touch was laughable. Fair play to the owners of Sublimity if I was expecting a big run from a horse I owned I'd be fairly quiet too.

Murta

Robin1982 wrote:

Not really my point. I'm more thinking of places like Australia, Hong Kong and the US where training data and performances are available to the general public. Here, we have a champion in Sublimity, who ran once before Cheltenham in an Open Hurdle yet went off at 16/1 in the CH. Personally, I can't see how anyone could back him with any confidence at that price, yet many did. For a Champion like Sublimity, I felt entirely removed from knowing about his actual ability until I saw him lead up that hill. Not even a clue.



Once again, it depends against what you are comparing. Against Cheltenham or Royal Ascot, Ireland seems cheap. However, I've been racing in America and France, where entry was a couple of euros and they threw in free racing form. The facilities, especially the catering, were excellent and there were a lot fewer drunk people. Now of course this was a function of the Tote monopolies there, but for the vast majority of people actually attending the races, this didn't matter to them.

Paying €25+ for entry when going racing in Ireland for what you get, just doesn't appeal much.

I have to laugh at all this moaning of lack of statistics and information. Here's a novel idea, watch the races themeselves and make up your own mind based on what the eye sees. Those that backed Sublimity knew of his ability from watching his races last year.

Corben Dallas

me too.
Much prefer to back UK racing, mainly because form seems to carry thru to results/performances more often. There’s more information generally available to the punter for UK racing. Same with Dogs in the UK they have A1 down to A9/10 so dogs run in their proper class. No similar grading for Irish dogs.

Often Irish horses run an incredible race, go off at skinny price next time round, don’t show any ability, and never win a race again.
Was told reason why there’s no Placepots/quadpots at Irish meetings is because racing is too dodgy.

E/w betting is no bad thing, if a horse to too big a price and might not be good enough to win but will possibly place, e/w it! PP runs occasionally put up specials for place only bets.
Win only is most effective for short prices 2’s of lower, wouldn’t generally do e/w lower than 8/9’s

Accumulators etc, don’t generally have problem with this, if u know a little about racing u know how hard is to pick 2/3/4 winners a day (singles) let alone get doubles/trebs to land. They don’t generally come in.
But if ppl want to make once in a lifetime bets* every day let them(super long odds bets that my only come in once in a lifetime.)
If you do any analysis of it, most serious punters would not waste the money.

knighted

Corben Dallas wrote:

Was told reason why there’s no Placepots/quadpots at Irish meetings is because racing is too dodgy.QUOTE]

u can do a placepot and quad pot on the tote at irish meetings -the reason why off course bookies dont offer it is because irish pots were paying so much and the individual bookies wernt paying into the pool just taking there chances on the result and having to match the payout -thats a fact which i wasnt told -to get a placepot up u need to place six horses it would take some amount of planning to do that to amount to ur dodgy theory

slowlyin2stride

Robin

U seem quite a frustrated individual. To take you up on a few of your gripes.

Robin1982 wrote:

I hate/dislike...

• The absense of any type of promotion or drive behind more sophisticated form analysis; all we get are one-liner "tips", race times are unreliable, the information given back to the punter/investor is minimal.
  
  Eh Racing post, irish form book, turform and even betfair racing in conjunction with timeform now offer analysis on all Irish races.
  
• The Racetracks; too expensive, rubbish facilities, terrible viewing areas, closed off areas for the privileged, terrible technical investment plans.
  
  Agreed that some tracks are somewhat limited in the facilities on offer. However, a number of courses have or are currently being upgraded in this regard. Nevertheless the viewing at most Irish tracks (save for Curragh) is exceptional. Furthermore, reserved enclosure's in Ireland is far less prevalent than is the case across the water.
  
• Handicaps - especially the 20+ runner ones; they take too much time to study and promote horses being sandbagged throughout a season. Would prefer claiming-type of system.
  
  They take too much time to study?? What would u prefer, more maiden hurdles with 2 (sometimes less) triers and the rest strung out like washing. Now that is very punter friendly.
  
  
• Large Bookmaker Overrounds; often worse than the similarly extortionist Tote takeouts, controlled by the few, far from transparent market. The weakness of the betting exchange markets is also lamentable.
  
  The overrounds are poor at a number of tracks - especially the Northern tracks. Nevertheless, they are bet very competitively at the major meetings - the Hennessy day in Leopardstown being a prime example. Furthermore, a number of on course bookmakers bet through betfair so you can hardly blame them for the lack of liquidity on the exchanges.
  
• The Way Horses are Trained/Campaigned; whispers for this, whispers for that, connections constantly looking for a "touch", the average racing fan feels out of the loop
  
  Maybe you would preferred that every horse was busted to get it's best finishing position. That would alleviate your headache of 20+ runners in handicaps as everything would be in the grip of the handicapper so the trainer wouldn't bother.
  
• The Popularity of Each-Way Betting; or alternatively, Bookmakers don't take Place bets; perhaps the most inefficiently used betting type used by the general public.
  
  Absolute garbage. Of course bookmakers accept each way bets. They may restrict each way betting in races where the overround on the place book is very hard to win off. For example when there is an odds on favourite, a 4/1 second fav and 10s bar they may restrict the business on the place part of the book as it is very difficult to win from. However, bookmakers both on and off course accept the majority of ew bets offered to them.
  
• The Popularity of Accumulators; the lotto mentality.
  
• The Dominance of Coolmore on the Flat - practically omnipotent.
  
• The lack of a Polytrack racetrack - watching horses slog through the mud for 4 months a year is depressing

I won't even bother with the last few as they are so ridiculous except to say maybe u would prefer Coolmore to relocate to America and you've obviously never heard of Dundalk.

Robin1982

slowlyin2stride wrote:

...Eh Racing post, irish form book, turform and even betfair racing in conjunction with timeform now offer analysis on all Irish races....

I was speaking more about my perceived lack of (incl. general knowledge of) more detailed information like sectional times, speed figures and statistics (racing and betting) in the public domain. These are things I (would) like to have.

slowlyin2stride wrote:

...Agreed that some tracks are somewhat limited in the facilities on offer. However, a number of courses have or are currently being upgraded in this regard...

Correct.

slowlyin2stride wrote:

...Nevertheless the viewing at most Irish tracks (save for Curragh) is exceptional...

I don't really agree but to each his own.

slowlyin2stride wrote:

...Furthermore, reserved enclosure's in Ireland is far less prevalent than is the case across the water...

That is true, so perhaps I'm being too picky here.

slowlyin2stride wrote:

...They take too much time to study?? What would u prefer, more maiden hurdles with 2 (sometimes less) triers and the rest strung out like washing. Now that is very punter friendly...

I would prefer a claiming-type system, like I said.

slowlyin2stride wrote:

...The overrounds are poor at a number of tracks - especially the Northern tracks. Nevertheless, they are bet very competitively at the major meetings - the Hennessy day in Leopardstown being a prime example...

But most of the time its bad.

slowlyin2stride wrote:

...Furthermore, a number of on course bookmakers bet through betfair so you can hardly blame them for the lack of liquidity on the exchanges.

I'm not. I think more information given to the average punter would increase activity on betting exchanges.

slowlyin2stride wrote:

...Maybe you would preferred that every horse was busted to get it's best finishing position. That would alleviate your headache of 20+ runners in handicaps as everything would be in the grip of the handicapper so the trainer wouldn't bother...

Horses are supposed to get their best finishing position. I think the handicap system encourages non-triers and deception, thats why I would prefer a claiming-type system (or even an Allowance-type system). I think there are too many racehorses in Ireland for the amount of racing.

slowlyin2stride wrote:

...Absolute garbage. Of course bookmakers accept each way bets...

You have misunderstood. They don't accept Place bets (i.e. you are not forced to bet both win and place, nor in an equal amount). I think too many people use each-way betting; as a bet I thinks its inefficient as due to its nature of it being two bets in one and you are forced to a certain ratio between the two. I think there are better betting strategies available but most don't know about them. That's what I dislike.

me wrote:

...The Popularity of Accumulators; the lotto mentality...

As above; I think its a poor betting strategy that is misunderstood.

me wrote:

...The Dominance of Coolmore on the Flat - practically omnipotent...

Many people enjoy National Hunt racing because the fact that many champions, past and present (Limestone Lad, Danoli, etc), have come from humble backgrounds. This is less so on the Flat. However in Ireland, the Classics every year are dominated by Coolmore entries. Watching the same owner/trainer combination take the first 4 places in a Classic; some, like me, would deem that perhaps a little uninteresting. Others wouldn't.

slowlyin2stride wrote:

...you've obviously never heard of Dundalk...

I have, but its not open yet. It took many years for such a development to come about. I have been following racing for a while.