ninjutsu in meath

ElSeano93

i want to start ninjustu, but don't know where to start. i am 14, and am already almost black belt in shotkan karate, and want to start up ninjutsu.I've heard alot of it is takedowns locks, and self-defence manouvers. i know it might sound immature, but im a martial artist, i want to learn some really cool moves e.g flips, wall scaling (like my cousins do ninjutsu over in dublin) and the like. i really like the weapons and am already really good with nunchaku. if you have any information please

Colm_OReilly

If you want to do wall scaling or flips maybe join a gymnastics club or find a group of free runners. There's a free running/parkour forum on this board.

Have you considered boxing/judo training?

dlofnep

A friend of mine trains ninjitsu, he likes it - but judging from his demonstrations, it didn't seem practical in reality situations. Seemed very static - what I mean is, it's a typical "you grab me here and i will do this" - which isn't very practical in dynamic situations.

Modder O'Reilly is correct about the flips and wall jumps - Parkour is perfect for that. One of the guys I work with does it and it keeps him fit and looks cool too!

HammerHeadGym

For traditional ninjutsu, talk to these guys. They have quite a few dojo's in meath.

http://genbukan.ie/

Hope this helps

r3nu4l

In the UK you have to be 16 to train in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (ninjutsu), I thought it was the same in Ireland...

It sounds as though you don't really know a lot about bujinkan OP, Id suggest learning a bit more and getting permission to watch a few classes. I'd also suggest the same to dlofnep (with respect) as my experience is that bujinkan is extremely dynamic.

Please use this link OP, it is the official Bujinkan budo taijutsu page for Ireland. There is a dojo in Dunshauglin but perhaps you are closer to one in another county depending on where you live in Meath.

dlofnep

r3nu4l wrote:

It sounds as though you don't really know a lot about bujinkan OP, Id suggest learning a bit more and getting permission to watch a few classes. I'd also suggest the same to dlofnep (with respect) as my experience is that bujinkan is extremely dynamic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0jOMc9R4Ak

This is the first video I found on youtube for it. Would it be an accurate assessment of the training. I'll reserve my response for after your answer. If it's not accurate, could you have a look on youtube and show me what you feel is the most accurate video on there is in regards to your training.

My thoughts on ninjitsu are from sharing training methods with one of the guys that trains with us. It's not based on hearsay, just what I've personally seen. By all means, I'm not trying to disrespect the art, but I felt it came across a bit of a "you do this and I'll respond with this" sort of art.

Colm_OReilly

In the UK you have to be 16 to train in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (ninjutsu), I thought it was the same in Ireland

I love stuff like this. The whole "it's so dangerous so only adults can practice it" mentality/marketing.

TJJP

r3nu4l wrote:

In the UK you have to be 16 to train in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (ninjutsu).

r3nu4l wrote:

It sounds as though you don't really know a lot about bujinkan OP

Just in case the suggestion here is that Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu = ninjutsu it isn't. To avoid confusion, Bujinkan is just one school of martial arts teaching a modified form of ninjutsu.

r3nu4l

Hi dlofnep, the video seems accurate in some senses (if a bit sloppy and showy) but what you certainly don't get from that is the part where practitioners are told to constantly experiment with techniques. As with all arts, beginners are encouraged to learn and follow the basic movements. As they progress they are encouraged to develop individual thought and experiment with the art and techniques.

What you also don't get from the video is that a lot of bujinkan focuses on forcing the opponent off balance, achieving this is then almost always followed by a pain compliance technique or lockdown.

[Rant]Colm, anyone who tells you it's because it's too dangerous is talking through their arse, that's not the reason for the 16+ rule. I'm not sure how weightlifting is run these days but it used to be the case that serious weightlifting was actively discouraged in those under 16 simply because their bodies had not yet developed enough, it's similar for bujinkan. 16 is an arbitrary age, there are probably many 14-15 year olds who, through active sporting lives etc, have developed strong muscles, tendons and ligaments and many 16+ people who haven't but certainly many children have not developed their ligaments and tendons (in particular) to a level that would support practicing bujinkan.

No need to try and bait me with sarcasm, it doesn't make you look big. I appreciate from this that you may have a problem with bujinkan but the OP asked a question about the art and I advised him that he may not even be old enough to allowed practice as well as answering his question, that's all. As a mod you should no better than to come along acting big and throwing your weight around and adding nothing to the conversation. Please leave the 'my art is better than yours' (my ego is bigger than yours) cr*p to one side. No wonder I don't visit this forum very often.

/and take a look at your sig for guidance .[/Rant]

TJJP is right in that BBT only incorporates 3 of the schools of ninjutsu teaching but (to my mind) it is the closest thing to ninjutsu that exists today.

Colm_OReilly

Right!

I understand why certain activities are restricted for youngsters due to biological constraints. Simply your body hasn't stopping it's normal fast growth (i.e. childhood).

Is there an official policy up somewhere on a Bujikan or Ninjutsu association website citing the reasons for this?

I fail to see how Bujikan (my knowledge comes from the UCD Ninjutsu club's training) can be considered too taxing on a child's body when boxing, judo and wrestling. All high impact sports, are allowed at junior level. Even outside martial arts/combat activities look at rugby and GAA for an example of youngsters engaged in high impact/stress activity.

Even gymnastics, which has a lot of strain on the tendons, is practiced at a pre pubescent age.

As for me throwing my weight around I didn't come on as mod, I made a comment as a poster. When I make a post as mod I usually sign off as a mod. I never once said "my art is better than yours" - you inferred this. I do not practice Judo or Boxing. I'd still recommend them for someone in Sean's position as they're probably the most accessible of clubs for him.

And if I was trying to bait you, it clearly worked as you responded with an emotionally charged post.

Yours,
Colm
-Poster

r3nu4l

Point taken regarding the modding, baiting etc. I humbly accept what you have said. (no sarcasm intended!).

Regarding the 16 yr age limit...

Cambridge Dojo wrote:

Unfortunately, we do not accept students under the age of sixteen. This is for various reasons, including the cost of insurance, and the fact that many aspects of our training carry an increased risk when applied to people whose bodies have not finished growing. There are some Bujinkan dojo that run a safe and specialised curriculum for younger members, for instance the Hemel Hempstead Dojo.

As you see, insurance is a factor but also the increased risk. Also, as you see there are specialized junior classes but tbh these are not really teaching a lot of the more 'body/limb-bending' techniques that are thought in a proper bujinkan class.

Actually, the Cambridge dojo faq is quite useful, epsecially for providing a sense of the adaptability and improvisaiton that is essential in bujinkan.

MrO

My 2 yen on this one.

I think that its really at the instructors discretion as to whether they'll have younger people training or not. Certainly there are teachers around the world who hold childrens classes - so I suspect there is no 'rule' relating to this (not that I've seen anyway). It seems to be a personal thing from dojo to dojo.


Just a piont on the youtube video - the problem (and I think most people would agree) - is that you can find some poor examples on any style or art. Its probably down to the fact the some people are maybe a little eager to get themselves on the net Probably well intentioned but...

I personally like this one - its nicely shot and the guy teaching is has pretty good movement (maybe more representative of what a good teachers movement will look like in the bujinkan).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUx9_vPRrUY

Anyway, horses for course and all that - if you like it give it go - if not theres plenty of other stuff out there.

All the best

r3nu4l

MrO wrote:

Just a piont on the youtube video - the problem (and I think most people would agree) - is that you can find some poor examples on any style or art. Its probably down to the fact the some people are maybe a little eager to get themselves on the net Probably well intentioned but...

Agreed...just look at the Dallas Ninjutsu videos :rolleyes: I won't post them here, they really are so bad. Again that's a problem with the term 'ninja' and 'ninjutsu', it attracts all sorts of weirdos who have pre-conceived ideas, much like the ideas people had about Kung-Fu following the explosion of Bruce Lee onto movie screens or Aikido and Steven Segal.

MrO wrote:

I personally like this one - its nicely shot and the guy teaching is has pretty good movement (maybe more representative of what a good teachers movement will look like in the bujinkan).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUx9_vPRrUY

Anyway, horses for course and all that - if you like it give it go - if not theres plenty of other stuff out there.

Ed Lomax is very good, there is a point 47 seconds into the video when he uses his legs to lock around the head of the grounded opponent. This aptly demonstrates what I was saying about adapting technique, and improvising, see how he's not happy just to have the lock on hold he's also demonstrating a movement designed to break the opponents fingers thus disabling him. A lot of traditional martial arts would leave it at the point of the lock bujinkan seeks to improve. I'm sure there are many more if I took time to look properly.
EDIT: Just to show I'm not being incredibly biased, I think he's a little slow at 43 seconds once he disarms the opponent, that wouldn't go very well for you in a real fight!

pma-ire

mr o i think this video is a little better?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hY96pwD9JQ

at least the main guy can do quick throws and take downs. but horses for courses

dlofnep

r3nu4l wrote:

Hi dlofnep, the video seems accurate in some senses (if a bit sloppy and showy) but what you certainly don't get from that is the part where practitioners are told to constantly experiment with techniques. As with all arts, beginners are encouraged to learn and follow the basic movements. As they progress they are encouraged to develop individual thought and experiment with the art and techniques.

I would say very sloppy. I've seen guys come to one judo class with more technique in their throws. Either those guys in that video are terrible students, or the system itself is terrible. For you to say "what you certainly don't get from that is the part where practitioners are told to constantly experiment with techniques" is here nor there, as that should all be practiced in class. Afterall, that's what training is for.

r3nu4l wrote:

What you also don't get from the video is that a lot of bujinkan focuses on forcing the opponent off balance, achieving this is then almost always followed by a pain compliance technique or lockdown.

Well, the same could be said for judo - taking someone's centre of gravity away, but the difference is that in judo that I can't expect to throw someone in judo with a throw. It doesn't work like that - there is no compliance, but in these videos there does appear to be alot of compliance. In judo, I need to setup my throw, my grips, the timing - and then if it works in sparring, I have it down, if not I need to refine it. There doesn't seem to be any sort of process of that in that video or any indication that they've ever done any form of refinement.

I asked a guy to show me a throw from ninjitsu - It was a seoi-nage. His throw was the same as the one I learn in judo, but the difference was - I made my throw happen through setting it up, he made his throw happen by making me set it up grabbing his wrist a certain way, and standing a certain way.

This just doesn't work, and that is why I said and still believe it's not dynamic.

r3nu4l

dlofnep wrote:

For you to say "what you certainly don't get from that is the part where practitioners are told to constantly experiment with techniques" is here nor there, as that should all be practiced in class. Afterall, that's what training is for.

...and you can tell what happened in that class by looking at a few minutes of edited footage in a youtube clip? Very good. I'm trying to tell you that what should happen in class. As was already said, Youtube videos are not the best source of knowledge and you really should visit a good dojo. You may even enjoy it. Is your own art perfect then? No room for improvement? All the youtube videos from your own art show excellent style and form as well as excellent adaptability? Every single one of them? I doubt it.

What about the other videos? The EdLomax one posted by Mr O is clearly a teaching demonstration for a group and therefore may explain why some things are a bit slow. I've seen Lomax in action in eperson and can tell you he is very fast, focused and doesn't need anyone setting up throws for him

Also, did you take into account that maybe the guy you were talking to might not be very good? I've seen plenty of people with black belts from all sorts of martial arts (including Bujinkan ) swagger around as if they were great only to expose themselves completely as black belts in foolishness. It's a problem that exists across the arts. I've watched very low ranking belts demonstrate excellent ability and overcome much more 'wualified' opponents thanks to better teaching.

Rev Hellfire

To bring this puppy back on track.

To the OP where abouts in Meath are you based, I happen to also partake of said ninpo ( http://www.genbukan.com ), which is similar to (although not identical to) bujinkan both of which would be known more commonly as practicing Ninjitsu.

There certainly is no restriction on the age of the partitioner's for example there is a junior class before the one I mainly attend which caters for 5 years+
and in the 'adult' class which follows it there are a number of younger people in there early teens.

There are dojo's in Navan, Drogheda and Balbriggan; one of which I'm sure should be within your area. I'd suggest you just get some general gym kit on and head down to give it a go. If you like what you see and enjoy it excellent, otherwise move on and try something different.

astfgl

It seems to me that all the clips shown on this thread so far are training /demonstration clips, where the compliance is obvious to see. Nothing wrong with this, if you demonstrate any martial art its going to look like the people are being compliant because in a demonstration you want things to look perfect so people can get an idea of what you are aiming for in your moves.
So I suggest that r3nu4l,MrO and pma-ire post clips of the moves being attempted on fully resisting opponents (competition etc).
I (and ithink dlofnep, as well i think) come from an MMA background and from an MMA point of view, if you don't resistance train something, it's probably not going to work.

astfgl

Oh and to the OP,
If all you want is cool moves (flips etc) just do parkour,

MrO

pma-ire wrote:

mr o i think this video is a little better?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hY96pwD9JQ

at least the main guy can do quick throws and take downs. but horses for courses

Yes, not too bad but sometimes I think people ham it up a bit with the ol' flipping and diving. I think its important to be able to breakfall and take ukemi but its not everything - plus the older you get the less the joints are willing to put up with these shenanigans

On the other points raised - its obviously heading directly for the old sport vs 'art' and compliance vs no-compliance arguments which litter the boards of internet and we all know that we never really achieve much with that.

My opinion, people will probably always try to defend how they train as 'the way'. For me, I understand the logic of the anyone who says thats the constant sparring and 'experimentation' is essential. I agree to a certain extent but I suppose it depends on what your ultimate goals are. If you're involved in competing and athletics - yes, absolutely. And it surely won't hinder your ability to defend yourself.

Other folk are attracted to budo (for different reasons). I think theres a rich source of knowledge and skill in the Bujinkan - we study both unarmed combat and weapons in a depth that I have not seen in many other arts. This is what keeps me interested (and I guess others who train in it). I wouldn't try to defend any system as the ulimate self-defence system as clearly thats related to individual and their training methods but I would say (as before) through my eyes there is something special in the Bujinkan that really takes things to another level (for me!) and this keeps me going back for more;)

One more thing - I feel (like anything worthwhile) it can take some to time to progress. The is down to individual ability and wealth of material to cover - it can be a lifetimes pursuit - and again this will appeal to some people and not to others!

r3nu4l

astfgl is right here. If I find a clip I'll certainly post it.

As for resistance training, that certainly is encouraged...at least in the class I attend it is, not sure about others.

What normally happens is that the instructor shows the basic technique that we will practice and we are given time to practice exactly as we have been shown. Then we are shown a number of variations on the same technique and allowed to practice those for a while, no resistance, simple compliance. Following that we are asked to practice but attempt to resist. That's the fun bit, it also encourages innovation

We then move onto another technique and repeat the exercise. Towards the end of the class we are asked to mix up and practice everything we learned, as we learned it (with compliance) and then we are asked to go through attempts to apply said techniques with resistance allowed.

A number of techniques in bujinkan rely on pain compliance, where there is little option for the opponent to comply because the pain of not doing so is too great. These techniques are usually practiced without much resistance (some but not much!) although we are told that in some circumstances they may not work, we are usually told to use our brains in circumstances where a said technique is not working and work through such scenarios.

dlofnep

r3nu4l wrote:

...and you can tell what happened in that class by looking at a few minutes of edited footage in a youtube clip? Very good. I'm trying to tell you that what should happen in class.

There is a pattern in all of the videos I've looked at, not only that one. All of the videos show compliance. Are you saying ALL of the videos submitted by random people on youtube are not a fair assessment of the art? As I study statistics in college, on average of all the videos I've seen - I should of at least seen a few videos that demonstrate the opposite of the first video, but they don't.

r3nu4l wrote:

As was already said, Youtube videos are not the best source of knowledge and you really should visit a good dojo. You may even enjoy it. Is your own art perfect then? No room for improvement? All the youtube videos from your own art show excellent style and form as well as excellent adaptability? Every single one of them? I doubt it.

I wouldn't rely on youtube as a textbook, but video after video - they continuity stays the same. Same training methods, same compliance. Is my art perfect? No - but that's here nor there. Nothing in this world is perfect. I think the question you should be asking is 'is my style functional' - My answer would be, I study multiple arts and standalone, they are functional, and combined together they are even more functional. There is compliance in the technique stage, much like yours - but the sparring is anything but compliant, and from the videos I've seen on youtube this isn't the case for ninjitsu.

Here are the first 3 videos returned from youtube of the two main arts I study.

BJJ:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dVqMIt8jSY

^ Gil Castillo is outweighed by a guy by about 80lbs but still shows how effective his art is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNR9IBuDGDc

Here is a demo of BJJ, much like the demo one of you posted.. Except you can see, even in demonstration, there still appears to be functionality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naWEbPDz80w

Old BJJ video of Royler Gracie defeating a Kenpo instructor.

Judo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS12baXecHE

Karo Parisyan, demonstrating the functionality of judo in MMA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFM-xRKbSec

A list of judo throws, all demonstrated with flawless technique. All be it against a compliant instructor, the difference is, the throws are executed correctly, and not sloppily like the first vide I post, which is just as random a selection.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPLCHw9QeAA

A highlight of judo throws. Display of great technique, explosivness and overall great work.

Now, do the same with ninjitsu, or whatever and see what the top 3 videos for them are. You'll notice a big difference. This is just random selection, all with the similar results, in both cases. So it's not bias on my behalf, just honesty. If you'd like to dispute the statistics with me, I'd be more than happy to.

r3nu4l wrote:

Also, did you take into account that maybe the guy you were talking to might not be very good?

He's been training it for about 4 years, I'd imagine after 4 years of training - he would be somewhat competent. Are you suggesting 4 years of training is borderline worthless? He's trained BJJ also for about 3 years, and is pretty good at that. He's athletic and has a good learning curve and is very dedicated to training. I'd imagine he puts the same enthusiasm into ninjitsu as BJJ, but yet the results differ greatly. The art should be reflective on the student, not the student on the art.

r3nu4l

I'll say it again, there is no substitute for attending a good class with a good teacher, this stands for all martial arts. Maybe I'm lucky and I have a great instructor

As for all the videos you've seen, apart from the demos I don't think that many people video much of what goes on inside classes. In our own class video is not permitted. I must have ask around to see if anyone can point me to a decent 'active combat' video becasue I can't find any on youtube either.

astfgl

r3nu4l wrote:

although we are told that in some circumstances they may not work.

may not work because technique is very hard/complicated and you are probably doing it wrong, or may not work because some people are too flexible, don't have that pressure point etc?

astfgl

r3nu4l wrote:

In our own class video is not permitted.

Why not?

r3nu4l

astfgl wrote:

may not work because technique is very hard/complicated and you are probably doing it wrong, or may not work because some people are too flexible, don't have that pressure point etc?

Of course it won't work if the pressure isn't applied correctly, we're always told that but also may not work in the case of say double-jointed people, people under the influence of certain drugs, alcohol etc. In other words, we are told never to rely on pain compliance alone, put something else in that will back up what you are trying to do, whether that's a lock or hold or something else depends on the circumstances.

Nothingcompares

hey renewal just as a matter of interest how long have been training and what grade are you? (i'm ist kyu in judo and not graded in bjj).

r3nu4l

astfgl wrote:

Why not?

Not to hide anything or 'ninja secrecy' or anything like that :rolleyes:

No, it's simply because of privacy issues and the belief that too many people try to learn from online videos rather than attending class.

Quite mundane really, although I do know a guy who spends all day looking at YouTube videos having never attended a class (despite my encouragement!) so I can certainly agree with the latter part of the above reason.

Hiya nothing compares, I'm not trying to be mysterious or anything but I'm not going to reveal my grade, I'd just prefer not to, I hoe you guys can respect that. I've been involved in various martial arts since my mid-teens and I'm in my 30's now, that's all I'll say.

In fact I'm not trying to duck out and avoid awkward questions here but I will probably not reply to too much more of this thread as all I came here to do was advise the OP on where he could do a class and the possibility that he may be too young for a class.

Instead my lack of discipline has led me to become dragged into yet another 'here's the problem with your art' conversation. As I said earlier I don't normally post here for exactly that reason, I've no real interest in those debates as I've enough experience to know that all arts have major flaws. MMA goes some way towards trying to rectify that but is also flawed in many ways, even Superman has kryptonite as a weakness. Suffice to say I can hold my own if I need to and that makes me happy

Nothingcompares

Fair enough. I think the original poster should take away from this thread the idea that we all train for fun and enjoyment and the practical/self-defense/other reasons are all peripheral. So the important thing is to train in a manner that you enjoy.
As the original poster claims he enjoys Shotokan Karate (which he describes as full contact ...) and weapons training (being good with the nunchuka) I can certainly see him enjoying the Ninjitsu (no offence to the ninjitsu minorities that don't like been called ninjas).
But on the other hand, he's looking for something flashy and kung-fu movie esque which seems a little at odds with the current descriptions of ninjitsu and has already been directed in the area of parkour (maybe capoeira too).
I know some ninjitsu schools practice the whole balance/ walking on tree stuff so...

For me, and I presume astgl and dlofnep, if it's not functional (alive, sparred, resistance etc.) it's not interesting relevant or enjoyable. That's why I'd never to ninjitsu.

MrO

Nothingcompares wrote:

I know some ninjitsu schools practice the whole balance/ walking on tree stuff so...

Hmmm, have to say I've trained in quite a few bujinkan dojos over the years and I've never seen or heard of anyone walkings on trees...

Nothingcompares wrote:

For me, and I presume astgl and dlofnep, if it's not functional (alive, sparred, resistance etc.) it's not interesting relevant or enjoyable. That's why I'd never to ninjitsu.

Fair enough, but I'm sure you could've squeezed a couple more negatives in there if you really tried;)
I assume that opinion is based on actually going training with the Bujinkan and deciding it wasn't 'interesting relevant or enjoyable'.

Roper

Europe (the band that is) had a song called "Ninja Survive".

I have nothing else to contribute, good day.

dent

dlofnep wrote:

I've seen on youtube this isn't the case for ninjitsu.

Never mind the ninja's. Take a look at a Jujutsu demo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1r_MGtT6I0

and the competition part

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHSCQb0hrPM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGu36NmX8-k

So traditional arts can still be quite alive.

Colm_OReilly

Buck65,

No need for that. Consider this a warning.

Colm

Nothingcompares

dent wrote:

Never mind the ninja's. Take a look at a Jujutsu demo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1r_MGtT6I0

and the competition part

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHSCQb0hrPM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGu36NmX8-k

So traditional arts can still be quite alive.

there's something about semi-contact striking and gi-grappling that just doens't make sense to me.

I'm interested in how these Jujutsu guys train? It was my understanding they do some judo and aikido stuff and some karate stuff and then at tournaments they all jsut mix it up together themselves.

dlofnep

Traditional ju-jitsu/jiu-jitsu/ju-jutsu/whatever seems to vary an awful amount. I've seen alot of videos, some seem to train practically the same as a judo or bjj club would, and then others are the complete opposite and spend more time on kata and other sorts. I guess it all depends on the instructor and what his beliefs are on training methods.

damo

I have to agree with dlofnep here, in my time i have not seen one single video outside of Judo, BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling and of course MMA - of any martial art that has training methods applicaple to real situations (ie. a resisting opponent).

Do you Ninjitsu guys at least agree that the videos posted on this thread depict training methods that are useless in a real situation? Surely there must be at least one video of good Ninjitsu training available if good Ninjitsu training actually exists?

Just show me one video, just one!!

arybvtcw0eolkf

dlofnep wrote:

A friend of mine trains ninjitsu, he likes it - but judging from his demonstrations, it didn't seem practical in reality situations. Seemed very static - what I mean is, it's a typical "you grab me here and i will do this" - which isn't very practical in dynamic situations.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055066613


Jeeze guys.


All this from an innocent question from a 14 yr old kid :rolleyes:


Most of you guys forget. Most of us here are learning a sport, nothing more or less. Few of us will have to use our 'skills' in a real life situ. so get real (Sry dlofnep this is not aimed at you). Some people here have answered the young lads question, but most have choose to ignore it and continue a stupid debate.


Lads, its horses for course, if the lad wants to learn Ninjitsu answer his god damn question. Poor bloke will probably be too scared sh*tless now to ask another question in future.

dlofnep

no worries mairt

takeda shingen

this is unreal. i can barely believe this. A young fella asks have ye any information on ninjutsu in meath. on a martial arts forum. ninjutsu is a martial art. the first reply is from the moderator of the forum. who goes on to suggest to the chap to try parkour, which last time i checked is not a martial art. why dont some of ye try to get it thru to your simplistic americanized skulls that not everyone wants to do mma or bjj. The young lad wants to twirl around some sticks and have a bit of craic and learn a bit of self defence aswell
i strongly suggest that if the regulars and the moderator here cannot possess the maturity to avoid turning every post that they can into mma vs traditional arts debate, then rename the forum as an mma forum

Nothingcompares

On one hand I completely agree with you Takeda, if some specifies something very particular we should all do our best to give specific advice. For example, if I moved to Galway and wanted to know where the Judo clubs were because I'm a Judoka and have been doing Judo for years I would not be interested in hearing about TKD clubs or Kung-fu clubs.

However, If I came onto this forum for the first time, and without any type of history/introduction etc. and I asked for some kind of martial arts club, something with a bit of grappling, I can expect to get hear a lot of varied reponses. Purely because my request wasn't specific.

This isn't a case of MMA people trying to brainwash a non-mma person into training something. It's a case of someone with unclear and probably loosely thought out goals asking for general advice. He just happens to use the word ninjitsu, which as we all know, means many, many different things.

dent

Nothingcompares wrote:

there's something about semi-contact striking and gi-grappling that just doens't make sense to me.

I'm interested in how these Jujutsu guys train? It was my understanding they do some judo and aikido stuff and some karate stuff and then at tournaments they all jsut mix it up together themselves.

Jujutsu is the forefather of judo and aikido hence the reason they look similar.

Take a look here for the history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JuJutsu#Judo_and_jujutsu

I'm not sure that it is semi contact and you can find more about the competition aspect here.
http://www.worldgames-iwga.org/vsite/vcontent/page/custom/0,8510,1044-167448-184666-18062-62413-custom-item,00.html

dent

dlofnep wrote:

Traditional ju-jitsu/jiu-jitsu/ju-jutsu/whatever seems to vary an awful amount. I've seen alot of videos, some seem to train practically the same as a judo or bjj club would, and then others are the complete opposite and spend more time on kata and other sorts. I guess it all depends on the instructor and what his beliefs are on training methods.

Very true statement, I have to say the only kata I ever did was sword kata, you would then practice throws locks etc and at the end of the class there was randori or free style sparring.

The Jujutsu in the world games has two aspects; the duo part is a demonstration of technique so you can display defenses against weapons etc. It also allows you to display techniques that are not allowed in competition.

The fighting part however allows you to pressure test your skills. When training for this, it’s all pad work and sparring.

So you retain the sword work and more traditional techniques but also get pressure tested so you might see videos of the same club seeming quite traditional yet in another seeming quite modern/alive

Some clubs do hate the sport aspect though.

Rev Hellfire

Nothingcompares wrote:

He just happens to use the word ninjitsu, which as we all know, means many, many different things.

I think most people who have given the topic even the most simple of glances will have a good idea of what ninjitsu is, there are really only three main organisations which are recognised ie. Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan all of which come from the same source and offer a similar syllabus to one another while differing in their train methods.

I’m not sure why MMA seem to have this insecurity that they need to bring every topic on a TMA to a showdown of how superior their arts are when it comes to the ‘street’ and how they handle in a ‘real combat situation’ compare to the various TMA.

I'm sure the initial poster has long since lost interest in the thread once it appeared that his question would be ignored and the regulars could settle into their usual point scoring against one another’s various disciplines.

Colm_OReilly

My friend walked into a bike shop the other day and told the guy he wanted a bike for about €200-€300. The guy said "if you want, I could sell you a piece of ****"

If I walk into any store and tell the guy what I want and he doesn't educate me before a purchase it's bad. Same applies here.

Now, I never once mentioned MMA training. The OP asked about learning flips. Let's face it - Parkour is leagues ahead of any ma in that respect. The OP mentioned learning takedowns/locks, which judo specialise in. He mentioned self defence, which means it needs to be trained against resistance to be effective.

I've trained and sparred with high level ninjas (Shidoshi level) and they've been as good as beginners in any sort of grappling scenario or striking scenario.

Now, I'm away for the next two weeks. Hopefully someone will deputise for me.

Colm

Rev Hellfire

I certainly have no objections to people offering alternative suggestions.

To use your analogy it would be a guy walks into the local bike/car shop and says he wants to buy a bicycle, since he wants to get up and down to the train station on it.
A cyclist in the shop suggests a bicycle he feels is suitable for the job, while another cyclist suggests another. Meanwhile a motorcyclist arrives and says “everyone knows bicycles aren’t the best thing on the road for going faster” and then proceeds to talk over everyone telling them why motorcycles are better than bikes when it comes to raw speed. The guy who came in waits a around a bit for someone to actually sell him a bike like asked for in the beginning but no ones listening, so he leaves and heads to another shop and gets his bike there.

That’s the major problem with the railroading of these arguments into threads, they take over it totally. People then get fed up since you can’t really get the answers you want without having to skim past pages of this rubbish, picking out the information relevant to your question in between it.

Tbh it’s not a problem limited to this forum nearly all martial arts forums seem to suffer from it.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Rev Hellfire wrote:

I certainly have no objections to people offering alternative suggestions.

To use your analogy it would be a guy walks into the local bike/car shop and says he wants to buy a bicycle, since he wants to get up and down to the train station on it.
A cyclist in the shop suggests a bicycle he feels is suitable for the job, while another cyclist suggests another. Meanwhile a motorcyclist arrives and says “everyone knows bicycles aren’t the best thing on the road for going faster” and then proceeds to talk over everyone telling them why motorcycles are better than bikes when it comes to raw speed. The guy who came in waits a around a bit for someone to actually sell him a bike like asked for in the beginning but no ones listening, so he leaves and heads to another shop and gets his bike there.

That’s the major problem with the railroading of these arguments into threads, they take over it totally. People then get fed up since you can’t really get the answers you want without having to skim past pages of this rubbish, picking out the information relevant to your question in between it.

Tbh it’s not a problem limited to this forum nearly all martial arts forums seem to suffer from it.

Two things, I typed almost the same answer (regarding the shop) and didn't post it!. Weird!!.

Most other M.A. forums (in my experience) actually wouldn't be allowed go down the road this thread has taken.

Dragan

Roper wrote:

Europe (the band that is) had a song called "Ninja Survive".

I have nothing else to contribute, good day.

It was the B side to "Final Countdown".

Now then, has the OP any opinion on what has been offered in the thread, or once again has some poor kid looking for an art been scared off by overt politics?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Dragan wrote:

It was the B side to "Final Countdown".

Now then, has the OP any opinion on what has been offered in the thread, or once again has some poor kid looking for an art been scared off by overt politics?

I think this thread was more a case of "My willy is bigger than your willy" than politics. I wouldn't blaim the kid for never coming back here, or at least for not asking another TMA question.

MrO

takeda shingen wrote:

this is unreal. i can barely believe this. A young fella asks have ye any information on ninjutsu in meath. on a martial arts forum. ninjutsu is a martial art. the first reply is from the moderator of the forum. who goes on to suggest to the chap to try parkour, which last time i checked is not a martial art. why dont some of ye try to get it thru to your simplistic americanized skulls that not everyone wants to do mma or bjj. The young lad wants to twirl around some sticks and have a bit of craic and learn a bit of self defence aswell
i strongly suggest that if the regulars and the moderator here cannot possess the maturity to avoid turning every post that they can into mma vs traditional arts debate, then rename the forum as an mma forum

Absolutely agree - and this is why the board does not attract posters from other styles. And no, I don't think it because they come on here and make outrageous 'no touch knock out' claims. Its because they see this type of response day in day out:

Q. I'd like some information on [insert art here]

A. Thats not "functional" , the "delivery" system is all wrong etc. etc. Why not do yoga, ballet, irish dancing etc. You'll be a much better person for it...and we'll all feel good about steering you away from something that you nearly wasted your life on...

I reckon takeda is right on all points - rename the forum and be done with it.

Lemming

I'm so glad I don't post any more ...

The stress of dealing with inferiority complexes ... who needs it?

The real shame here is that the OP has probably been scared off boards because of a pedantic "my cock is bigger than your cock" argument that is utterly, utterly moot.

r3nu4l

Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way!

I blame myself for allowing myself to reply in the first place and getting dragged into this. For the record not once did I disparage MMA or it's practitioners, I replied to the OP with helpful, informative advice and then got side-tracked. My apologies to the OP.

I don't post here very often at all and I'm pissed off that I did at all!

Maybe there should be a separate MMA forum? I know this would mean other martial arts would look for their own too but much like soccer, something has to be done here. People complain about the soccer access request system all the time but it stays because it works.

I think separating MMA out would take most of the posters there, hopefully those posters who also practice other arts as well as MMA are the type of people mature enough to recognise and accept other arts for what they are.