Playing A 10/J from late position

The_Chopper

Just looking for the best way to play A 10/J in 2 situations.

1. Blinds at 400/800 I've 40K and cover everyone at the table.
Someone limps from middle position and you're on the cut off with A 10.
With no reads what's your best play.

2. Blinds at 400/800 I've 40K and cover everyone at the table.
Someone limps from middle position and you're on the cut off with A J.

I've been very aggressive raising a lot of pots. Recently limpers have started coming over the top of me, as well as the blinds.

Now what's my best play?

Scouser in Dub

I would want to know their stack size at the very least

NeVeR

Raise 3x blinds. If they push fold.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

phantom_lord

np

Scouser in Dub

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Anyway, simply put - I make it 1650 to go in all situations described unless stack sizes of Big blind or early position limper are very small.

Great post but at 400/800 this is a min raise.

The concern I have with the OP's position is that if he has been very aggressive and has encouraged limpers to raise over the top is that they may well be doing this with hands he beats but because AJ/10 is not a hand to go to war with he doesn't want to have to fold to a reraise and so the stack size of the MP limper is of paramount importance.

Both hands have to be worth a raise and the only time he is in real trouble if it is one of the rubbish players mentioned above or someone is limping wanting to reraise with a premium pair which admittedly should be more of a concern if they are limping early position rather than mid.

Also I don't want to get to showdown here so a raise of about 5BB which is still only 10% of OP's stack seems more likely to drive a limper away depending of course on the stacks of the blinds

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

phantom_lord

too long didn't read.

The_Chopper

Scouser in Dub wrote:

I would want to know their stack size at the very least

Mid limper has 26k I believe

The_Chopper

LuckyLloyd wrote:

In order to approach this question, an entire range of factors need to be considered aside from the actual value of your holdings – and you need to understand that the actual value of you holdings is largely irrelevant.

What do I mean by this? If you think about a hand like AJ / A10 – the vast majority of times that a big pot is played (either with all money in pre – flop or heavy multi street betting) it will have little showdown value unless you manage to hit two pair or trips / ace kicker on the board. Unless you are playing against an opponent that is short stacked or is a maniac / loose calling station, AJ / A10 will be behind the premium Aces // pairs that people tend to put money over the line with pre - flop // and TPTK or a paired Ace / Jack or 10 kicker should lose most of the time to the type of hands that show a heavy interest post - flop.

Therefore, if you want to play this hand against decent opponents that are comfortably stacked you don’t want to go to showdown. As such, the first question you need to ask is “can I win this hand without getting to the river?”


Secondly, any player who open limps in mid position at the 200 / 400 level of a tournament is a bad player. Whenever I see players open limp a little alarm goes off in my head and I decide that I want their chips. There are different types of bad players:

- There are tight weak abc players who will open limp small pairs // weak aces // suited connector type hands in the hope of seeing a cheap flop but dumping pre – flop to a raise;

- There are bad loose gamblors who will open limp anything that is “pretty” and will call any raise to see a flop irrespective of how you have been playing or stack sizes, position etc.

- Then there are rubbish players who think the ultimate sophistication in terms of Hold ‘ em strategy is to limp premium hands pre – flop, smooth call any raise, check call the flop and the turn – before finally getting the rest of their stack in on all rivers

If you see a player in the third category just remember it well. They will continue to play big hands in such a fashion and are thankfully a minority in the games I play.

In terms of category one and two, raising from your position is obviously best. Category one dumps most of the time giving you the pot without a fight, and you are usually ahead of the range of category two and should be able to outplay them post – flop - so get money over the line.


In terms of what is behind you, when it is folded to you in the button or cutoff, AJ // A10 becomes an automatic raise. The realities of probability say that a better hand is not behind you. Here, the general standard of the table and the tournament you are in becomes important. If you are playing at a table of alert, aggressive players – they aren’t just going to be run over in the blinds all day to late position raisers. When there is a limp and then a raise in late position, in theory you should need a better hand than usual to defend your blinds. Good players should know that you know this, so this actually becomes a great spot for them to put in the third raise on a resteal, and take the pot down pre – flop. You need to be aware of this, aware of your own image and how active from late position you have been – and play back if you think the blinds are simply making a move.

Paradoxically, AJ / A10 is a holding that increases in value if the blinds are decent players and providing that you are naturally active in late position – as it should be at the higher end of a hand range they will assign to you, and will compare more favourably to the range of holdings they need to defend against you. If a weak abc player re – raises you from the blinds after a mid – position limper and your raise, they probably have a monster, and you need to get out of dodge. If the big blind is bad and loose and likes to call raises from his blind asking questions along the lines of “how much more is it?” then it is ok because again your hand compares favourably against such a range and you will have position post – flop.

Obviously, good players will sometimes have the big hand they represent and bad players are capable of getting good cards and you need to be weary of that – but I think that raising in these situations and playing most flops aggressively is the best way to go.

If I’m honest, at that blind level in a tourney with a 50 BB stack, I will attack limpers from late position with a massive range – and bet hard on most flops and turns in an effort to take down the pot irrespective of whether I improve or not. In the situation you have described, the power is your comfortable chip and table position. The mp player is bad, so you should play the situation aggressively in an effort to take down the pot. You don’t need to hit a flop to win the money in the middle when playing with ideal position.

Finally, stack sizes can change everything – if the mid position or the big blind are very low stacked it may be impossible to play the hand without a showdown, and therefore the range you assign to the open limper becomes vital in deciding whether to get involved or not. If he has 8BB and has not played a hand for three orbits of the table you should probably pass, as it is most likely a big hand trying to slow play to a double up. When other players are short stacked, the value of your position is rendered largely irrelevant and the value of your holdings dramatically increases in importance and, as such, you need to stop and think about what types of hands the relevant opponents in mid position and the blinds will stick the remainder of their tanks in with.


Anyway, simply put - I make it 1650 to go in all situations described unless stack sizes of Big blind or early position limper are very small.


EDIT: I misread the blinds in the OP. The above makes more sense if the blinds are 200 / 400. Sorry!!

Wow good post. I had no reads on the player in the first example as I had just been moved to the table. I actually had A10 and raised to 3600. He called. Flop came A high with no draws - I bet out 6k I think and he folded.

Do you think there's ever a case for folding this hand in this situation?

The_Chopper

Scouser in Dub wrote:

Great post but at 400/800 this is a min raise.

The concern I have with the OP's position is that if he has been very aggressive and has encouraged limpers to raise over the top is that they may well be doing this with hands he beats but because AJ/10 is not a hand to go to war with he doesn't want to have to fold to a reraise and so the stack size of the MP limper is of paramount importance.

Both hands have to be worth a raise and the only time he is in real trouble if it is one of the rubbish players mentioned above or someone is limping wanting to reraise with a premium pair which admittedly should be more of a concern if they are limping early position rather than mid.

Also I don't want to get to showdown here so a raise of about 5BB which is still only 10% of OP's stack seems more likely to drive a limper away depending of course on the stacks of the blinds

In the 2nd example I had been playing very aggressively and had been reraised a few times from mid limpers or blinds.

I actually have 60K in the 2nd example - the villian in the piece had 50K blinds at 800/400 with 50 ante I think.

The player in question here had reraised me twice and I knew he was playing back at me. Now is A 10/J really a hand that I want to go to war with?

Been the player I am, I decided to raise to 4K and he called (I had Ad Jd and the button).

Flop Qd 10x 9x - now what's my plan of action

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

The_Chopper

LuckyLloyd wrote:

If you decide to play the hand with the mindset oftaking him off the pot without a showdown and outplaying him in position you should never muck. If he has 26k (32 BBs) then there is room to take a flop and blow him off the pot post - flop.

On that particular hand, I think a check behind is good on a dry flop such as that. He never really folds a better Ace here, so you are either miles ahead or behind. I think it is one of the rare spots where checking behind to induce a bluff is the right play by making it look as if you aren't mad about the ace. In this way you lose the least when beat and can sometimes get an extra 5 - 7k out of him when infront.

I think the problem with this is that out of position players will check AJ, A10, AQ to you here. So if you check behind and they bet the turn you now are faced with a decision. Whereas if you bet the flop and they come over you, 4 out of 5 times you are behind.

Not saying that I haven't checked behind in this spot before. I'd be more inclined to with a AQ/AK

Scouser in Dub

LuckyLloyd wrote:

If you decide to play the hand with the mindset oftaking him off the pot without a showdown and outplaying him in position you should never muck. If he has 26k (32 BBs) then there is room to take a flop and blow him off the pot post - flop.

On that particular hand, I think a check behind is good on a dry flop such as that. He never really folds a better Ace here, so you are either miles ahead or behind. I think it is one of the rare spots where checking behind to induce a bluff is the right play by making it look as if you aren't mad about the ace. In this way you lose the least when beat and can sometimes get an extra 5 - 7k out of him when infront.

This is very good advice and is a mistake I often make. As well as inducing a bluff people with worse aces and pocket pairs (though they should be raising the best of these pre) wont give you credit for the ace checking behind on that flop and may bet for value on the turn

Scouser in Dub

The_Chopper wrote:

In the 2nd example I had been playing very aggressively and had been reraised a few times from mid limpers or blinds.

I actually have 60K in the 2nd example - the villian in the piece had 50K blinds at 800/400 with 50 ante I think.

The player in question here had reraised me twice and I knew he was playing back at me. Now is A 10/J really a hand that I want to go to war with?

Been the player I am, I decided to raise to 4K and he called (I had Ad Jd and the button).

Flop Qd 10x 9x - now what's my plan of action

I would not claim to be knowledgeable enough to give advice here as I am working on my own game but in positon here I am raising pre even with someone playing back at me. My raising range from the button is wide enough that I can narrow my range and still include A 10/J suited from the button and based upon the action decide to either call or fold. You have an M of 40 here so have play available to you.

In that particular instance I check behind if checked to. I dont want to be check raised off what could develop into a monster draw should a non board pairing diamond falls on the turn.

If he bets it is all about the price offered and whether I feel he could be playing TPTK or some two pair hand that could cost him all his chips should I get there.

*as a caveat here better players may well tear my line to shreds which I have no issue with at all.