What's Wrong with Evangelical Christians?

Scofflaw

I am interested in both Christian and atheist perspectives on this article by an evangelical pastor. The full title is "What's Wrong with Evangelical Christians and Why are we Destroying America?".

cordially,
Scofflaw

JimiTime

My Two cent. I think the world of Christendom has much wrong with it. That article does seem to deal with Amaerica, and also the 'Christian influence' on the political situation also, so i would even call that to account. I feel he needs to go further, TBH. I think Christendom (i.e. Religions associated with christianity) is imploding, however true christianity lives in the hearts of true christians. Christianity wont die, but its religious organisations may do. The article touches on the, 'join our club', type of mentality alot of these organisations have. They are so divided at this stage, they are just waiting on their conqueror IMO. As I said earlier though, true christianity is in the heart of the person, not in the denomination of the person.

Asiaprod

Hum, interesting.
It touched on two issues I have problems with.

As quoted
"the "mega-churches" with "superstar pastors" who drew large crowds and generous offerings. Their churches could afford all the amenities. Why waste your time in a little church with a pastor who struggled to construct a sermon when you could attend a Grand Event that would truly "meet your needs?"

And

"That's because we view our Superstar Pastors like Superstar Athletes. If we can steal one away from another "team in the league" so much the better for us."

This to me smacks of the "Corporate America Culture," something I am very familiar with. I find it really hard to equate this approach with the old fashioned religious approach. For me, it has become a business that appears to be more concerned with numbers and money, which of course, equals power.

robindch

It's a good article and he's clearly thought quite a lot about how religion operates, especially in this bit and the last sentence (my italics):

The most dangerous addiction is one that we evangelicals reward our leaders for having. And the more they are controlled by it, the more we revere them. What is this addiction? It is the Addiction to Spiritualized Power. The heart attitude of one so enslaved might be verbalized in this way: "God has blessed me. I am gifted. Many people hang on my every word. Obviously, I am doing God's Work. [...] " While, this is a crude statement of the philosophy, it is operationally accurate. Throughout my adult life, I have seen it play out with the most damaging results in a variety of churches and evangelical organizations. The more successful and powerful our addicted leaders become, the more we idolize and reward them. Charming but destructive personalities enslaved to Spiritualized Power fall into a category that we might call Independent Operators. No matter how charismatic they are and no matter how well they hide it, beyond all else, these people are concerned about themselves and achieving their own agendas.

It'll be interesting to see what he says in part two and whether he'll extend the same solid reasoning to other areas of religion activity.

> [Asiaprod] For me, it has become a business that appears to be more concerned
> with numbers and money, which of course, equals power.

That's about the height of it, though I would disagree that it has become this way, and I'd suggest instead that it was actually never any other way.

One thing that the author didn't mention is that a lot of the megachurches carry out market surveys before they open up in an area, to make sure that they deliver the religious services that the local public want. And having set up, I believe that many run ongoing focus groups to make sure that they're staying in touch with market demands, as well as carrying out a lot of marketing themselves. See this article from Forbes Magazine which talks about this distinctly corporate approach to religion and "Christian Capitalism".

This heavily market-driven approach is an interesting one to adopt, btw, for organizations which sell themselves as purveyors of The One Truth and slag off others as "relativists".

lookinforpicnic

JimiTime wrote:

However true christianity lives in the hearts of true christians. Christianity wont die, but its religious organisations may do...true christianity is in the heart of the person, not in the denomination of the person.

How does it end up in the "heart of the person", if not first through the indoctrination from religious organisations. If religious organisations die as you say they might how will we know what "true christianity" is..will we have to wait till God speaks to us? Or maybe the bible will tell us..but who will be our guide..or who will give us the push to pick up a book 2000 years old in the first place? Or maybe without guidance we will just come to the conclusion from careful reasoning and an historical analysis the truth of a certain form of christianity...that would be some feat

wolfsbane

Scofflaw said:

I am interested in both Christian and atheist perspectives on this article by an evangelical pastor. The full title is "What's Wrong with Evangelical Christians and Why are we Destroying America?".

This expresses generally what many Evangelicals have been saying for a long time: that much of what passes as Evangelical today is phoney, and even among the genuine there is a slide into the same contamination. "By their fruits you shall know them", the Lord reminded us:
Matthew 7: 15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Especially in America - but not confined to it - Easy-believism has produced a crop of tares rather than wheat. True Christians have no excuse for tolerating this, for the Bible has warned them repeatedly that such imposters and heresies would arise and that we must keep ourselves from them.

Christians are to be known by their holiness, their love for God and their fellowman. The Christian virtues are contrasted with the vices of their old nature:
Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

JimiTime

lookinforpicnic wrote:

How does it end up in the "heart of the person", if not first through the indoctrination from religious organisations.

The indoctrination is part of the problem! It makes it way to the heart by God. As i said, organisations can tumble, but God wont pass away. Not until the founding of roman Catholicism was there an exclusive religious group. Congregations were on a nationality basis. They had different views, and were guided by Paul and the other apostles in the ways of Christ, but they weren't this big business with headquarters etc. Their congregations were in homes etc. Christ will always shepherd his flock. 'Where there are 2 people gathered in my name, there I will be also' is what he said.

If religious organisations die as you say they might how will we know what "true christianity" is..will we have to wait till God speaks to us?

I said they may do, as in it really doen't matter if they do. 'True christianity' as you mentioned will always be known. As Wolfsbane mentioned, 'a tree will be known by its fruits'. God is not making sure we are members of this denomination or that. He is concerned with the heart. The apostle Paul was actually aiding the killing of christians, but God obviously seen his heart, and deemed him worthy of his apostleship. He was Obviously a misguided individual, but was shown The way.

Or maybe the bible will tell us..but who will be our guide..or who will give us the push to pick up a book 2000 years old in the first place? Or maybe without guidance we will just come to the conclusion from careful reasoning and an historical analysis the truth of a certain form of christianity...that would be some feat

Maybe we are still waiting for 'spiritual food at the appropriate time'. If such a thing was to happen I.E. The falling of religion, who knows which way we will be guided. the fact is though, the faithful will be. There is much in the book of revelation for instance that is to be fulfilled and revealed. We do not know whats around the corner, but I am not anxious, because I know God.

UU

It was an interesting article at the start but he kept ranting on and on and on!!! And less than a quarter way through, I said that's enough for me!

But I'll express my own views. I don't really agree with certain types of evangelising. For example, I have no problem with them being on Grafton St. handing out leaflets about God and Jesus and stuff and offering a pleasant church welcoming service for newbies with cake, cookies and tea afterwards (I'll take the free cake!!! Lol!) That I have no problem with. One either chooses to take a leaflet or not and to go or not. After all, if a charity group or an other organisation is free to publicise their group, why can't a religious one?

Now, what I do have a problem with is scaring people into joining a particular church. Like have banners up and saying everyone bar us is a sinner and is going to go to hell unless they join our church and give us money. We don't seem to have much of that over here but in America it seems so. Any group that discriminates against whoever - jews, muslims, gays, atheists, other races, etc. ought to be banned, and that's not just religious groups. It would go against Christianity to discriminate and show intolerance towards others due to their differences.

Also, what I don't like either which I'm sure they don't intend to cause offense is calling to your door to seek converts. I don't agree with that because the moment they cross onto my property, it becomes personal and private. So having people seeking recruits for their church at my doorstep is a denial of my privacy and as I see religion to be sort of private, I don't like that.

Well, they're just my views so bye.

lookinforpicnic

JimiTime wrote:

'True christianity' as you mentioned will always be known. .

I was quoting you, my question was how will it be known..? Will god provide the "spiritual food" if i ask him nicely or maybe ask him everyday twice a day...?

JimiTime wrote:

'a tree will be known by its fruits'. .

Thanks that really clears it up for me..

The fact of the matter is that religions need indoctrination and institutions without it they would simply wither away, you can't discover true christianity on your own unlike say calculus or some scientific fact, it needs to passed down (to state the obvious). The evangelical christians are just a bit more 'in your face than most' about it. The "join our club" mentality has always been the way religions have propagated.

The whole aggressive consumerism of it I think is a more 'honest' (for want of a better word) approach than traditional christianity which keeps its aggressive consumerism cleverily concealed (and of course OK'd by god). Their tactic is to have a nice little priest come in the classroom (a particularly innocent move - how could this lovely man tell me lies), while being at that age where you would believe any rubbish an adult tells you. And so you become a christian a believer in Jesus Christ before you fully understand what it is to believe in something...

And instead of songs they have hymns and the like, they too rely on the "emotion as truth" point the pastor makes in the article, I remember hearing organs as a child what else could stir such emotions but God and the undeniable truth about his existence. Whether the rituals become more modernised or stay the same, or become 'in your face' or discrete, the same underlying techniques which have served religions well over the millennia are still present in both. At least with aggressive recruitment a small bit of sense in the person may keep them away, but in the traditional catholic approach the reflex reaction may not be present and lo and behold you get a christian.

JimiTime

lookinforpicnic wrote:

I was quoting you, my question was how will it be known..? Will god provide the "spiritual food" if i ask him nicely or maybe ask him everyday twice a day...?

If you ask with Faith through Jesus Christ, yes.

Thanks that really clears it up for me...

If thats sarcasm, its you admitting your ignorance to knowing the fruits of Christ. If its not sarcasm, your welcome.

The fact of the matter is that religions need indoctrination and institutions without it they would simply wither away.

They do indeed feel they need indoctrination, but they don't. Their fear is that without rules and doctrine etc, they will wither away. That in itself is a lack of Faith IMO. God 'will' guide the faithful.

you can't discover true christianity on your own unlike say calculus or some scientific fact.

That is true. You need God to guide you.

, it needs to passed down (to state the obvious).

It has been. The bible documents it all, and the faithful will never let the message die. Jesus will never let it fade away. He will shepherd the flock.

The evangelical christians are just a bit more 'in your face than most' about it. The "join our club" mentality has always been the way religions have propagated.

The message must be given. It must be given out of love for your bretheren. There was a comment earlier, not sure by who, about people knocking at the door to give the message. He basically said thats where he draws the line, because they are intruding. However, when the postman gives a letter, or interflora deliver flowers, they are not intruding. Well, a true christian gives the message out of love for humankind, it is a gift that is given to a neighbour. The neighbour can reject it, but he shouldn't feel like his privacy has been violated, he should realise that this person really cares for him (or at least the person care for him).

As for the 'Join our club'. I only have issue with that when its a, 'we are the only bearers of truth, all others are doomed, club.' If its a, 'here's the message, and if your interested we meet here on such a night, club', I don't see an issue. Its when groups get organised and try to distinguish themselves apart from others that issues can occur.

The whole aggressive consumerism of it I think is a more 'honest' (for want of a better word) approach than traditional christianity which keeps its aggressive consumerism cleverily concealed (and of course OK'd by god). Their tactic is to have a nice little priest come in the classroom (a particularly innocent move - how could this lovely man tell me lies), while being at that age where you would believe any rubbish an adult tells you. And so you become a christian a believer in Jesus Christ before you fully understand what it is to believe in something....

But you can say this about anything. A child is moulded by his parents. However, if what you are saying is the Dawkins view of giving religion to a child is abuse then I agree and disagree. Giving the wrong religion to a child is bad. Giving a child the knowledge of God and behaving in a Christian manner, and encouraging the child in this way also is not bad. It is the greatest gift you give your child. Its not, go to mass on sunday. Bless yourself here or rosary there. Its being a beacon of goodness for your child to follow, and giving the child his spiritual food as well as his physical food.

And instead of songs they have hymns and the like, they too rely on the "emotion as truth" point the pastor makes in the article, I remember hearing organs as a child what else could stir such emotions but God and the undeniable truth about his existence. Whether the rituals become more modernised or stay the same, or become 'in your face' or discrete, the same underlying techniques which have served religions well over the millennia are still present in both. At least with aggressive recruitment a small bit of sense in the person may keep them away, but in the traditional catholic approach the reflex reaction may not be present and lo and behold you get a christian.

No you get a catholic. I don't approve of coaxing someone into a world of false religion. I find catholicism at times repulsive from a Christian perspective. However, it is up to a parent to teach their child correctly. If they have submitted themselves to a religious organisation, then the child may suffer the consequences, or if the parent is 'Truly Christian', that child will be given the best gift that can be given.

PDN

UU wrote:

Now, what I do have a problem with is scaring people into joining a particular church. Like have banners up and saying everyone bar us is a sinner and is going to go to hell unless they join our church and give us money. We don't seem to have much of that over here but in America it seems so. Any group that discriminates against whoever - jews, muslims, gays, atheists, other races, etc. ought to be banned, and that's not just religious groups. It would go against Christianity to discriminate and show intolerance towards others due to their differences.

Let's see, which Church has, for centuries, preached in Ireland that it is the only Church that has the way of salvation? Indeed it condemned everyone else as heretics.

I'll give you a clue, it isn't any of the evangelical churches ...