Greens v SF

is_that_so

A piece in the paper today got me thinking of the "constituency" of the Greens , particularly amongst the much younger voters. They can attract that left thinking individual or voters who are strongly anti-establishment. Now this is indeed the same demographic group that Sinn Fein tap into. With Green issues so prominent are the Greens not likely to reap a dividend?
Opinion polls put them at 8%.

On that basis it could be a very interesting election indeed. With that type of support and corresponding seats - could double to 12 seats and no "baggage" associated with them, the Greens could be the kingmakers for the next Dáil. Of particular interest I think will be the battle in Dublin Central between the "MEPs" Mary Lou and Patricia.

My feeling is that the Greens will enter power after the election, but even if FF are the largest party they will be able to extract enough concessions out of FF to satisfy their voters.

mike65

The Greens won't be in coalition with FF, they won't be asked as Labour will be larger and happier to join the Soldiers Of Fortune er Destiny.

As for Greens v Shinners, they have an obvious overlap in urban areas esp Dublin but ultimatly the likely SF voter will put 'republicanism' ahead of environmental concerns. That said this is a transferable vote system to many will give thier number two to the other party.

Mike.

Rock Climber

is_that_so wrote:

Now this is indeed the same demographic group that Sinn Fein tap into. With Green issues so prominent are the Greens not likely to reap a dividend?

There are a lot of D4 types that vote green that wouldn't vote SF in a month of sundays.
Green therefore has the best of both worlds.

marco murphy

the likely SF voter will put 'republicanism' ahead of environmental concerns.

The enviornment is high on Sinn Fein's agenda. It is possbile to have Republicanism AND environmentalism on top.

johnnyskeleton

Rock Climber wrote:

There are a lot of D4 types that vote green that wouldn't vote SF in a month of sundays.
Green therefore has the best of both worlds.

There are also a lot of hard working honest types, freedom loving pacificst types, otherwise apolitical types, happy go-lucky types, etc that wouldn't vote SF in a month of sundays.

SF like to put themselves out as a working class party, but I don't believe it. Right of centre parties like FG and PDs might not do anything to improve the lot of people on low incomes, but it is my opinion that neither would SF. There are certain rumours about what SF have done vis a vis crime prevention in areas where the gardai have failed but, even if they are true, they are not a long term way of dealing with crime. The only way to combat crime is by social improvements and a legitimate and accountable police force.

is_that_so

Rock Climber wrote:

There are a lot of D4 types that vote green that wouldn't vote SF in a month of sundays.
Green therefore has the best of both worlds.

You clipped off the bit about young voters. :rolleyes:
Agreed. D4 and other areas of affluence are prime territory for the Greens.
I am speculating here as to how voters who are "left" or "anti-establishment" might view the two parties and whether they would consider both. I believe that they will and in that scenario, IMO, for a number of voters the Greens would be perceived as more attractive.

marco murphy

There are certain rumours about what SF have done vis a vis crime prevention in areas where the gardai have failed but, even if they are true, they are not a long term way of dealing with crime. The only way to combat crime is by social improvements and a legitimate and accountable police force.

Which is exactly what Sinn Fein campaign for. Anti-social behaviour is linked to deprivation and a lack of amenities. It is a direct result of government failure to invites in working class communities. Sinn Féin proposes that each local authority should establish Community Policing Partnerships, one per policing district, as committees of the council where CPP members elected by the local authority would have the opportunity and responsibility to reflect community concerns and priorities and to make recommendations. There would be a monthly public meeting between CPP and District Superintendent, at which he or she would present reports and answer questions.

johnnyskeleton

Poblachtach wrote:

Which is exactly what Sinn Fein campaign for. Anti-social behaviour is linked to deprivation and a lack of amenities. It is a direct result of government failure to invites in working class communities. Sinn Féin proposes that each local authority should establish Community Policing Partnerships, one per policing district, as committees of the council where CPP members elected by the local authority would have the opportunity and responsibility to reflect community concerns and priorities and to make recommendations. There would be a monthly public meeting between CPP and District Superintendent, at which he or she would present reports and answer questions.

As long as it is above board, accountable, and not based on fear and violence, community policing can be a good idea. However, I don't think SF are working hard enough to dispel the more sinster rumours, and this concerns me. I don't for a second doubt that SF TDs, counsellors etc are all upstanding citizens, but I think they should stress their peaceful aims more clearly to some of the people who support them. Otherwise, the good name of the party gets dragged through the mud, and I would hate to see a tacit acceptance of unaccountable community policing by a prominent political party.

That said I think SF did very well in the Stormont elections (where the situation is different) and I think there will be some changes for the better in Northern Irish politics.

Múinteoir

Poblachtach wrote:

The enviornment is high on Sinn Fein's agenda.

Pretty much every other party has jumped on that bandwagon of late. Funny, they (all the other parties) weren't talking about the environment until the Greens were doing well in the polls and winning Dáil seats. Interesting pattern.

Zaphod

Going by the last election, SF took seats primarily from Labour/DL in Kerry North, Dublin SW and Louth. You can choose between a "loss" for FF or Labour in Dublin SC when it was increased from 4 to 5 seats.

The Greens gained at the expense of FG in Dublin South, Cork SC, Dún Laoghaire, and arguably in Dublin Mid West.

So while they seem to be broadly similar in terms of social and economic policies, they would also seem to be appealing to different strands of the electorate.

csk

johnnyskeleton wrote:

As long as it is above board, accountable, and not based on fear and violence, community policing can be a good idea. However, I don't think SF are working hard enough to dispel the more sinster rumours, and this concerns me. I don't for a second doubt that SF TDs, counsellors etc are all upstanding citizens, but I think they should stress their peaceful aims more clearly to some of the people who support them. Otherwise, the good name of the party gets dragged through the mud, and I would hate to see a tacit acceptance of unaccountable community policing by a prominent political party.

What more can SF do to dispel "sinister rumours" ? I am sure people who support the party are well aware of their policies already and seeing as SF policies are readily available on their website I do not see what more they can do ? As the election campaign gets under way I am sure SF candidates will have more opportunities to get their message across to the public, as will all parties.

Of course the only way "the good name of the party" would "get dragged through the mud" would be if say, people were to propagate these unsubstanitated "sinister rumours" on say, a website or something.

marco murphy

Your last point should be noted CSK, how true

Pretty much every other party has jumped on that bandwagon of late. Funny, they (all the other parties) weren't talking about the environment until the Greens were doing well in the polls and winning Dáil seats. Interesting pattern.

Well I suppose we should thank the greens for bringing it to our attention.

However, I don't think SF are working hard enough to dispel the more sinster rumours, and this concerns me.

Theres that many rumours.... What exactly?

johnnyskeleton

Poblachtach wrote:

Theres that many rumours.... What exactly?

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/1999/01/13/opinion.htm
http://www.justice.ie/80256E01003A02CF/vWeb/pcJUSQ68LQ9R-en
http://www.ireland.com/focus/election_2002/profiles/leaders12.htm

While I will not state what I have heard (as that would be me perpetuating the rumour) it seems to me that SF revel in the reputation of being tough on drug dealers and other criminals. This type of toughness, if true, is unaccountable and irreversible if they have made a mistake.

Rock Climber

csk wrote:

What more can SF do to dispel "sinister rumours" ? I am sure people who support the party are well aware of their policies already and seeing as SF policies are readily available on their website I do not see what more they can do ? As the election campaign gets under way I am sure SF candidates will have more opportunities to get their message across to the public, as will all parties.

I'm sure they will and of course most of those who already vote Sinn Féin either don't care about the IRA and prefer to thank community workers with a vote for their masters.
You can't rely on the community workers outside of disadvantaged areas to increase your vote.

Of course the only way "the good name of the party" would "get dragged through the mud" would be if say, people were to propagate these unsubstanitated "sinister rumours" on say, a website or something.

I don't know what this is all about.
Theres nothing rumorous about a connection with the IRA or praise for the good work of the likes of the Adare killers.
Again people who currently vote Sinn Féin will either ignore those types of associations or they will be of the view that the likes of people who killed in Adare are heroes.
Both types of people are minorities.
You are not going to significantly break out of that voting section and into mainstream politics with the help of community workers and the history of the IRA behind you.
You need credible policies.

Jackie laughlin

"What more can SF do to dispel "sinister rumours" ?" i) Give evidence/confess to An Garda and PSNI on crime, especially murders and conspiracy to commit murders. ii) Disband the IRA or say what it is for.

Any political ideology can have a green perspective.

There is a danger that young voters will be unaware of SFIRA's blood-soaked history. They have come to maturity thinking that G. Adams is a peaceful statesman. The media have been compliant in the lie for fear of upsetting the "peace process".

Community policing is very dangerous. Our Gardai working in the community is not what SFIRA have in mind; community rule is what they intend. Yes, An Garda has failed disgracefully in conceding the rule of law in deprived estates to vigilantes.

flamingo

It always makes me laugh the assumptions people make about the people who vote for particular parties ... it really isn't as clear cut as some people here seem to suggest!

For example, I know people who vote FF (God forgive them!), although they would most certainly see themselves as not fitting in with the 'FF' set or adhering to the 'FF' outlook on life ... similarly, it's a tad oversimplifying the case to say that "young voters will be unaware of SFIRA's blood-soaked history" . People's reasons for voting are typically many and varied - well, people who actually take their politics seriously, and think about what they're doing, rather than simply voting by party allegiance.

All that said, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the Greens!

Múinteoir

Another thing to note about the SF/Greens dimension, is that the Green are the only other party in the South along with SF of course, who have elected reps. in the North as well, with their three councillors and one MLA.
Still a small number, but it's still more than all the other southern parties have together. It'd be great to see the Greens be the party to eventually break the sectarian voting divide.

Villain

Sinn Fein will have Gerry Adams as their representative on RTE for pre-election debates which according to sunday papers isn't going down well with Labour, he may not be running for election himself but he is the Party Leader and has every right imo. I think its more to do with his ability to debate than where he is running for election.

csk

Rock Climber wrote:

I'm sure they will and of course most of those who already vote Sinn Féin either don't care about the IRA and prefer to thank community workers with a vote for their masters.
You can't rely on the community workers outside of disadvantaged areas to increase your vote.

I don't know what exactly you are getting at ? I was referring very specifically to the "sinister rumours" "vis a vis crime prevantion" that Johnnyskeleton was bringing up and the notion that Sinn Féin are not doing enough to stress "their pecefule aims to the people who support them".

As I am sure you are aware from the most recent elections up North, the people have overwhelmingly endorsed Sinn Féin. Included in this I am sure are quite a number of fromer SDLP supporters who would have had reservations about actvities of the Provisional IRA back in the day. IMO to say that all Sinn Féin supporters "don't care about the IRA" is to engage in silly stereotyping.

I don't know what this is all about.
Theres nothing rumorous about a connection with the IRA or praise for the good work of the likes of the Adare killers.
Again people who currently vote Sinn Féin will either ignore those types of associations or they will be of the view that the likes of people who killed in Adare are heroes. Both types of people are minorities.

Me neither! Again that is unfair stereotyping. You are the one bringing up associations with the PIRA, which has, according to no less a source than my Government "stood down" (for lack of a better term).

You are not going to significantly break out of that voting section and into mainstream politics with the help of community workers and the history of the IRA behind you.
You need credible policies.

I agree 100% and this is the process Sinn Féin are engaged in. However your dismissal of the tremondous work that Sinn Féin does in the community is rather unfair and seems to be down to a crude political subjectivism that wants to dismiss anything good that Sinn Féin does.

csk

Jackielaughlin wrote:

Community policing is very dangerous. Our Gardai working in the community is not what SFIRA have in mind; community rule is what they intend. Yes, An Garda has failed disgracefully in conceding the rule of law in deprived estates to vigilantes.

I agree An Garda Síochána has been massively under funded in the fight against crime and this has allowed crime to rise in this country, I fear we have Tánaiste Mc Dowell to thank for that.

However, it is not community rule that Sinn Féin want, it is communitiy policing as outlined by Poblachtach a few posts back.

In my own area (a small rural Town) in the past there was a kind of de facto community policing in place as the Gaedaí were well known and an integral part of the community. My area in recent times has experinced a population explosion which has almost double or even trebled. The gardaí have become aloof from the community and anti-social behaviour has been on the increase. A need to get back to the roots of An Garda Síochána is in need imo and this seems to be all Sinn Féin proposes.

As regards your point on disbanding, the last IMC report states, the PIRA "has disbanded “military” structures, including the General Headquarters
departments responsible for procurement, engineering and training, and it has
stood down volunteers and stopped allowances. Continuing inactivity itself
leads to further erosion of capability". It is important to note it is an ongoing process.

marco murphy

JonnySkeleton
There is obviously an Anti-Sinn Fein agenda going on here.
Just to point out, the links you provided, are out of date by a number of years.
Infact, the IRA had'nt even ended it's campaign with your first link, therefore I dont really think it's relevant to the 'rumours' being discussed.

Give evidence/confess to An Garda and PSNI on crime, especially murders and conspiracy to commit murders. ii) Disband the IRA or say what it is for.

What crimes has Sinn Fein to confess to?
What evidence has Sinn Fein to give?
What murders has Sinn Fein been involved in?

The IRA is just a body, without structure, and Iam sure is being disbanded if not already.
It will just fade, so don't worry. By the way, what good is an unarmed army.

There is a danger that young voters will be unaware of SFIRA's blood-soaked history.

Iam sure we can rely on you to not think about the future and bring up the past.
Or perhaps they are too aware of the only people working in their communities.

Community policing is very dangerous. Our Gardai working in the community is not what SFIRA have in mind; community rule is what they intend.

Perhaps a link to this element of a policy would be in order.

Rock Climber

You don't seem to realise poblachtach that Sinn Féin has many different banana skins to slip on that main stream parties don't.

Imagine not thinking the abduction and murder of a mother of 10 is a crime.
Thats outrageous.

While most of the electorate have probably accepted that murdering by the IRA is over,the whole thing is too fresh and Sinn Féin spokespersons haven't in them to condemn their own when they look on them as heroes.

Most of the country don't look on them in the same way,you'll have to get over that fact and it is a fact.

As regards an anti Sinn Féin agenda round here-thats a cop out.
Theres plenty of anti FF and anti FG posters here and I don't see their supporters crying.
They debate.

csk wrote:

However your dismissal of the tremondous work that Sinn Féin does in the community is rather unfair and seems to be down to a crude political subjectivism that wants to dismiss anything good that Sinn Féin does.

Thats not what I was saying.
I was pointing out that their community work has limitations-it's appreciated in the areas they have so far gone into but you won't find a need for the local SF guy arranging the fixing of evegutters in the majority of more upmarket estates or dealing with money lenders or with pushing for no 163's medical card for instance.
To break out into the other 60 or 70% of the population,you won't do it love bomb style with the community workers ,you will need popular policies.

Time Magazine

Rock Climber wrote:

Theres plenty of anti FF and anti FG posters here and I don't see their supporters crying.

You don't see it because we hide it so well.

On a serious note: yes, Poblachtach, I have an "agenda" with Sinn Féin in the same vein that I have a serious agenda with Robert Mugabe and Omar al-Bashir. I consider them an extremely dangerous political organisation with ridiculous policies, morally-corrupt leaders and a seditious recent history that makes my skin crawl.

How the hell anyone can support a party that equivocate over murder I do not know. Supporting working-class communities? Wasn't Robert McCartney working class? It's interesting how this ties into the aforementioned Omar al-Bashir. It's the Janjaweed murdering scores of thousands in Darfur, isn't it? Isn't it?

Quite frankly if Sinn Féin get into government, I'm getting a plane.

marco murphy

You don't seem to realise poblachtach that Sinn Féin has many different banana skins to slip on that main stream parties don't.

Yes I understand there are issues. But you must understand that the IRA has now called off it's activities, even more significant, as the killing of Mr. McCabe was not sanctioned by the GHQ.

Imagine not thinking the abduction and murder of a mother of 10 is a crime.
Thats outrageous.

Well if you want to dwell on that, its up to yourself.
However, that was at a time of huge conflict in the Six Counties, therefore no one really knows the facts.

marco murphy

How the hell anyone can support a party that equivocate over murder I do not know. Supporting working-class communities? Wasn't Robert McCartney working class?

Thats whole different debate.
On the second point.
Robert McCartney, working class? Yes, and also a Sinn Fein supporter.
Sinn Fein could do no more, by asking people with information to come forward, expelling six members and this further exceeded by the signing up to policincy.
The IRA, expelled the three members believed to be involved.


And how you can compare republicans to the Janjaweed is beyond my belief.

A Dub in Glasgo

Ibid wrote:

You don't see it because we hide it so well.

On a serious note: yes, Poblachtach, I have an "agenda" with Sinn Féin in the same vein that I have a serious agenda with Robert Mugabe and Omar al-Bashir. I consider them an extremely dangerous political organisation with ridiculous policies, morally-corrupt leaders and a seditious recent history that makes my skin crawl.

How the hell anyone can support a party that equivocate over murder I do not know. Supporting working-class communities? Wasn't Robert McCartney working class? It's interesting how this ties into the aforementioned Omar al-Bashir. It's the Janjaweed murdering scores of thousands in Darfur, isn't it? Isn't it?

Quite frankly if Sinn Féin get into government, I'm getting a plane.

You will be bringing up the Nazi comparison soon

There are a lot of people in the mainstream parties who support violence in one shape or another. Some of them actually provide logistics to slaughter. How can they do that and still get people to vote for them?

johnnyskeleton

Poblachtach wrote:

JonnySkeleton
There is obviously an Anti-Sinn Fein agenda going on here.
Just to point out, the links you provided, are out of date by a number of years.
Infact, the IRA had'nt even ended it's campaign with your first link, therefore I dont really think it's relevant to the 'rumours' being discussed.

I typed "ira punishment beatings north kerry" into google.ie and these were some of the results. I'm not sure if there are newspaper articles on the type of community policing that I've heard about.

In any case, I don't accept your logic that the papers being a few years old changes much. The Khmer Rouge were ousted in 1975 and AFAIK were disbanded in 1998, but that would not make me vote for Pol Pot (were he still alive) even if he smiled and invited me to a nice Q&A session with all my likeminded friends down the ole abandoned school building.

ibid wrote:

Quite frankly if Sinn Féin get into government, I'm getting a plane.

I'm inclined to agree. Bertie's comments last year that he would never go into government with SF suggest to me that that is something he is seriously thinking about (or else why say it?). I don't subscribe to any anti-Sinn Féin agenda, but I do have an anti-Sinn Féin bias. This is because they are in a different league to every other political party in the South.

johnnyskeleton

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

There are a lot of people in the mainstream parties who support violence in one shape or another. Some of them actually provide logistics to slaughter. How can they do that and still get people to vote for them?

Since this thread is Greens v. SF, I should say that the Greens do not support the US use of Shannon.

Poblachtach

Poblachtach wrote:

However, that was at a time of huge conflict in the Six Counties, therefore no one really knows the facts.

LoL.
The questions and answers programme wasn't back then.

A dub in glasgo wrote:

There are a lot of people in the mainstream parties who support violence in one shape or another. Some of them actually provide logistics to slaughter. How can they do that and still get people to vote for them?

Because they condemn murder in all circumstances perhaps eg when was the last time we went to war without UN approval?
Besides yours is fennickity logic as anyone working for a U.S company here supports the war in Iraq on that basis through taxes or users of BT broadband.

A Dub in Glasgo

Tristrame wrote:

Because they condemn murder in all circumstances perhaps

Besides yours is fennickity logic as anyone working for a U.S company here supports the war in Iraq on that basis through taxes or users of BT broadband.

Economics is an amazingly convienent excuse for slaughter

marco murphy

I typed "ira punishment beatings north kerry" into google.ie and these were some of the results. I'm not sure if there are newspaper articles on the type of community policing that I've heard about.

Again if you bothered to read my earlier post about community policing.
And, again those articles are out of date.

The Khmer Rouge were ousted in 1975 and AFAIK were disbanded in 1998,[/quotes]
Comparing the Khmer Rouge to Sinn Fein is rediculous, as is Pol Pot to Gerry Adams.



I do believe that the Greens and/or FF would go into coalition with Sinn Fein.
We all have our opinions, but I think people should move on from the war and perhaps it might take a lot longer than that, but the voters will decide.

A Dub in Glasgo

johnnyskeleton wrote:

Since this thread is Greens v. SF, I should say that the Greens do not support the US use of Shannon.

I would say they do not but that is not the question asked of the poster who brought the thread away from Greens v SF

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Economics is an amazingly convienent excuse for slaughter

By the same token so is humanity,Christianity,Islam and dozens of other seemingly otherwise supposedly benign entities.

I would say they do not but that is not the question asked of the poster who brought the thread away from Greens v SF

It is almost a subject of it's own alright but I'm going to allow it to continue because it's relevant to what makes SF different to the Greens.

johnnyskeleton

Poblachtach wrote:

Comparing the Khmer Rouge to Sinn Fein is rediculous, as is Pol Pot to Gerry Adams.

I do not mean to make a comparison between SF and KK nor between Pol Pot and Gerry Adams, but I want to highlight that where a party has a history of violence, and when I don't really believe that they will reform, I would not vote for them.

Especially when other parties are offering the same or similar policies but without the questionable history.

A Dub in Glasgo

Tristrame wrote:

By the same token so is humanity,Christianity,Islam and dozens of other seemingly otherwise supposedly benign entities.

Who said they were not?

Villain

Ibid wrote:

Quite frankly if Sinn Féin get into government, I'm getting a plane.

I hope that plane is fueled and ready to go because there is a very good chance Sinn Fein will be in Government by the end of the month.... oh wait sorry thats north of the border it doesn't count :rolleyes:


Also I always love the way some people have no problem with Sinn Fein being in government north of the border governing the other 6 counties of this Island but hell will freeze over before they would accept it in the other 26 counties, I mean you are either against them or your not imo.

Liam Byrne

I have to laugh at Sinn Fein people who trot out the "under-resourced Gardai" as an issue.

As far as I can remember, the Gardai would be up at least one member were it not for some individuals in Adare who apparently wanted our money.

While that action apparently wasn't sanctioned by anyone in particular or related to SF, IT WAS NEVER CONDEMNED by anyone from SF either, and to add insult to injury SF also actively campaigned to get these murderers released, as well as getting photographed with them, etc, etc.

There have been lots of other dodgy and reprehensible actions done in the name of "the struggle". IMHO this was usually just a convenient cover, and anyone loses my respect as soon as they injure or murder any innocent individual. There are also lots of those events that I won't claim to know enough about, other than the fact that they do not represent my views or my opinion of what republicanism or Irishness is.

But on the murder in Adare alone, it is fair to say that any "anti-Sinn Fein agenda" is self-imposed by them; they chose their stance on it, and they have to live with people's opinion of that stance. If they reckon they're going into the Government which hires and controls the same police force that they decide it's OK to shoot and murder, they can p**s off, in my book.

Bertie came close to selling out on this subject too, so he's not exactly high in my opinion either.

Bottom line is that you vote for the people who best represent your views; any common socialist ground between SF and GP might be a nice-to-have, and might be a nice alternative to the high-inflation, low quality of life, shop-around, money-driven privatisation agenda of the current political parties, but that comes much lower on my list of priorities than respect for law and order and people's rights.

I said before that I'd be on the plane - like Ibid - if an unrepentant SF got into Government.

North of the border is a little different, as there were two sides to most stories there - I'm not condoning anything, just saying that you can't point fingers because there were too many at the same thing and not giving a b*****x about innocent people; I was always anti-violence and hated people claiming they were doing it for Ireland or disgracing the Irish flag or associating us all with extremist views, but the murder in Adare was a HUGE eye-opener since it was the murder - by supposedly "some of our own" :rolleyes: - of a representative this state and its people - the state and people that SF now supposedly want to represent.

marco murphy

I don't really believe that they will reform, I would not vote for them

I don't see where you're coming from.
The IRA has declared its war over. Sinn Fein has signed up to policing. They have done well in the A. Elections therefore ready for government. Isn't this reform?

Very good point Irish1, however, there remains a monority, realistically, and on this forum, that pretty much doesnt give a ****e about the 6 counties.

johnnyskeleton

irish1 wrote:

Also I always love the way some people have no problem with Sinn Fein being in government north of the border governing the other 6 counties of this Island but hell will freeze over before they would accept it in the other 26 counties, I mean you are either against them or your not imo.

It does at first glance seem strange, but you have to remember that:
1. Just because people have no problem with SF in the North does not mean they support SF in the North.

2. People are obviously more tolerant to the shortcomings of their neighbour's government than they are of their own. I would not want, for example, French taxation policy, but I have no problem with the French taxing the hell out of each other if they like.

3. Politics in the North are more extreme (for want of a better word) than in the south. The best example I can give is that government ministers in the North do not necessarily have to know anything about their department. For example, the minister for education does not have to be well educated or have any particular educational policies. IMO, the assembly is not really concerned with school dinners and the like.

4. Because the troubles still need to be resolved, SF have to be part of the solution. If the major parties in NI politics were replaced by, for example, Labour, the Tories and the Liberal Democrats, the peace process would fall apart.

5. There is only one real issue in NI politics, the rest is largely window dressing. In the South most people don't care that much about that issue, and are more concerned with peace and prosperity than they are about nationalism.

By the way, the you are either with us or against us is George Bush logic.

johnnyskeleton

Poblachtach wrote:

I don't see where you're coming from.
The IRA has declared its war over. Sinn Fein has signed up to policing. They have done well in the A. Elections therefore ready for government. Isn't this reform?

The Chinese Government has declared that it is helping to bring Tibet into the 21st century (after 50 years ago declaring that it was helping them to achieve liberty from themselves). They have also stopped executing Tibetan monks, provided that they don't say anything about politics or mention the Dali Lama. Isn't this also reform?

flamingo

johnnyskeleton wrote:

The Chinese Government has declared that it is helping to bring Tibet into the 21st century (after 50 years ago declaring that it was helping them to achieve liberty from themselves). They have also stopped executing Tibetan monks, provided that they don't say anything about politics or mention the Dali Lama. Isn't this also reform?

not really the same thing, is it?! i mean, the fact that SF and the IRA have both moved significantly in the last number of years is really not up for debate - except by the DUP. Two national governments have supported and praised the moves made by SF / IRA ... who has endorsed or overseen the 'reforms' of the Chinese?!

Fair enough, they might not have refomed enough to satisfy you, but your comparison is just ridiculous.

Time Magazine

Poblachtach wrote:

Robert McCartney, working class? Yes, and also a Sinn Fein supporter.
Sinn Fein could do no more, by asking people with information to come forward, expelling six members and this further exceeded by the signing up to policincy.
The IRA, expelled the three members believed to be involved.

Reckon his sisters voted for SF last week?

And how you can compare republicans to the Janjaweed is beyond my belief.

I am a republican. Sinn Féin, despite their protestations, do not have a monopoly on republicanism. In fact I'd argue I'm far more of a republican than the average SF member.

I'm not comparing republicans to the Janjaweed. I'm comparing the relationship between SF and IRA to the Sudanese government and the Janjaweed.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Economics is an amazingly convienent excuse for slaughter

Do you want to extrapolate on that point, or just leave it as meaningless as it stands?

irish1 wrote:

I hope that plane is fueled and ready to go because there is a very good chance Sinn Fein will be in Government by the end of the month.... oh wait sorry thats north of the border it doesn't count

And thank f*ck the North doesn't set policy in this country. Yes, I'd flee if Ian was in government too.

Also I always love the way some people have no problem with Sinn Fein being in government north of the border governing the other 6 counties of this Island but hell will freeze over before they would accept it in the other 26 counties, I mean you are either against them or your not imo.

There's no contradiction. Despite my preference for the SDLP, SF have a democratic mandate in the North and they should govern. Now, imo, the North is a hole filled with bigoted discrimination and even worse weather than the South. I wouldn't live there, even for the £5,000 subsidy the Crown gives to each citizen each year because they can't provide for themselves. (AKA I'm preferring the economic and social climate in a country where SF are a fringe party.)

csk

Liam Byrne wrote:

I have to laugh at Sinn Fein people who trot out the "under-resourced Gardai" as an issue.

I suppose since I mde the point that is directed at me? I don't know about you but I would have thought with an election coming up that the under-resourcing of An Garda Síochána, the quality of life where people commute upto six hours daily, live in a sh!t cardbox house in the middle of nowhere they can barely afford, sh!t infrastructural planning, sh!t public transport, immigration, the environment etc. are the important issues. Surely that is what we should be tackling and not mindless ranting and whataboutery?

There have been lots of other dodgy and reprehensible actions done in the name of "the struggle".

There have been lots of dodgy and reprehensible actions done in the name of "the Union". You have had the luxury of never having experienced them. Why do you think that might be ?

If they reckon they're going into the Government which hires and controls the same police force that they decide it's OK to shoot and murder, they can p**s off, in my book.

The same was said bout Fianna Fáil, the guards would mutiny, the army would stage a coup, there would be bloodbaths, anarchy all manner of ****e.

Fianna Fáil went on to become the biggest party in Ireland, who have been in Government for how much time? 75% or more isn't it?
Maybe most people's problem is not what happened in the past but what could happen in the future.

North of the border is a little different, as there were two sides to most stories there - I'm not condoning anything, just saying that you can't point fingers because there were too many at the same thing and not giving a b*****x about innocent people; I was always anti-violence and hated people claiming they were doing it for Ireland or disgracing the Irish flag or associating us all with extremist views, but the murder in Adare was a HUGE eye-opener since it was the murder - by supposedly "some of our own" - of a representative this state and its people - the state and people that SF now supposedly want to represent.

So basically what that piece of logical gymnastics says is "I'm going ot point all the fingers I want, you are not allowed though, because adding context would ruin my point". :rolleyes: However I will say, yes North of the border is very different. Irish people (yes "some of our own"!) were denied the very basic of rights. What's more the British state in order to uphold its law, sponsored death squads to murder innocent Irish people for no other reason than they were Irish. What's even more disgusting is that they also honoured, if that's the right word, those responsible for Bloody Sunday. Private Lee Clegg was also realeased from prison, no one campaigned for him, there was no democratically backed Agreement under which he was allowed early release, just well because the British obviously felt he did nothing wrong or something.

Mindless whataboutery goes both ways, neither however, deal with anything substantial apart from glorified whinging.

marco murphy

I am a republican. Sinn Féin, despite their protestations, do not have a monopoly on republicanism. In fact I'd argue I'm far more of a republican than the average SF member.

Really? And you base that on what? How exactly are you republican?

is_that_so

So this has turned into yet another thread with trenchant diametrically opposed arguments about SF. I think this sums up their problem. To their supporters they are the only choice, to everyone else the jury is at the very least, out.

They are good on all things republican, they always have an answer as to how the North should be run but to my mind somewhat suspect on what should happen here. To date SF has been about establishing a Dail presence, now they are looking to make that a major presence with aspiration, long or short-term for government.

On that basis their policies will be open to a lot more scrutiny and even ridicule. In some respects that is an acknowledgement that they are perceived as a threat to other parties.

Attacking Sinn Fein policies is what happens in democracy the way FF, FG ,Labour or any other party is attacked. That's politics. Unfortunately some SF supporters view it an attack on their core beliefs.

They will be put on the spot by politicians, journalists and the public. The semantic gymnastics and ambivalence that they used in the North will not work here. We don't believe FF and we will certainly not believe any party that tells us to "do what you feel comfortable with" and not "go to the police".
They will have to add real flesh to their policies,defend them and provide justification and credibility for them. So far they haven't proven themselves able to do so and they, like every other party, can expect a grilling on what their policies will actually do for us.

Whatever way you look at the contribution Sinn Fein have made, for many voters the position of the North will be consigned to history for now,either because they will be part of an assembly or direct rule will have replaced it. As one commentator mentioned over the weekend it is important and worthy but terribly dull stuff. Even so the legacy of what they were connected to hangs over them in the minds of many people, which was really what prompted the original question and therefore the suggestion that for some it's easier to vote for the Green Party over SF.

Liam Byrne

I suppose since I mde the point that is directed at me? I don't know about you but I would have thought with an election coming up that the under-resourcing of An Garda Síochána, the quality of life where people commute upto six hours daily, live in a sh!t cardbox house in the middle of nowhere they can barely afford, sh!t infrastructural planning, sh!t public transport, immigration, the environment etc. are the important issues.

I agree 100%, but that's not the point that I was making. I don't know whether you conveniently ignored the remainder or reasoning behind my point or whether it was a genuine error, but let's assume that it was genuine.

Under-resourced Gardai ARE a genuine problem - no question; my point was that at least part of the reason Gardai are under-resourced is that they have had members shot and have had to chase after, shall we say, "certain individuals and organisations" committing crimes.

There have been lots of dodgy and reprehensible actions done in the name of "the Union". You have had the luxury of never having experienced them. Why do you think that might be ?

Let me guess - you're saying that I have my "freedom" because of the recent bunch of criminals ? No way, Jose! My grandmother used to make the distinction that the "old IRA" never hurt or killed anyone innocent.....that's distinction #1.

Also (distinction #2) what the UK do is of less interest to me - they're not claiming to be "on my side", so they haven't implied that they have my support. But I'm sick of SF & Co claiming that their version and vision of Ireland is what we should all be hoping for. There are lots of people doing lousy things worldwide, and we'll criticise them, sure, but I'll come down twice as strongly on anyone who does lousy things and then claims that they have my support, or are doing it for me, or that I'm less Irish because I don't agree with them.

Like Poblachtach's post above, querying "how exactly are you republican" ? Why query that ? How, exactly, is Poblachtach republican ? And what do we say if his explanation of how he views himself as republican differs from what we think is republican ? Who has the right to say/judge ?

Is it George Bush's definition (blow the bo****x out of anyone who disagrees with us) ? That if you're don't agree with him or support him, that you're somehow against him and against his view of "freedom". If so, count me out.

Or is it the French version - "Liberty, Equality and Fraternity" ? That's more like what I believe it to be, and therefore, in that definition, I'm definitely one.

But I'm sick of having to explain my views by saying "yes, but I'm not an extremist or advocator of violence".

To be fair to SF, given the progress they've helped to achieve in dragging their backward-facing supporters into the 21st century, there are a few things in SF's approach that do reflect some of my views, but until they agree that people who do bad things - particularly to innocent bystanders - should be accountable and punished, they are of no interest to me; I can't justify voting for a group with whom I have fundamental differences of opinion on matters of life and death and justice.

Think Iraq.....whatever about the fact that the "war" there is illegal and immoral, there is an argument that if two armies want to go at each other, then let 'em off......but when innocent Iraqis are being killed and tortured, then those involved are just as lawless as any other criminals.

When SF accept this, then I'll accept them.

In the meantime, as pointed out by a few posters, the Greens have good social policies but "without the baggage".

csk

Liam Byrne wrote:

I agree 100%, but that's not the point that I was making. I don't know whether you conveniently ignored the remainder or reasoning behind my point or whether it was a genuine error, but let's assume that it was genuine.

Under-resourced Gardai ARE a genuine problem - no question; my point was that at least part of the reason Gardai are under-resourced is that they have had members shot and have had to chase after, shall we say, "certain individuals and organisations" committing crimes.

Yes I did ignore the majority of your post, Why? because it mindless whataboutery for whataboutery's sake.
I could have took you up on some more points but why bother? when all you want to do is ignore my point and instead use it as lauchpad for your own spiel.

Let me guess - you're saying that I have my "freedom" because of the recent bunch of criminals ? No way, Jose! My grandmother used to make the distinction that the "old IRA" never hurt or killed anyone innocent.....that's distinction #1.

Eh no actually. I'm saying you never had to experience the reprehensible things done to uphold the Union because you have the privilege to live in an Irish State. A rather large portion of the Irish Nation don't have that privilege.
Your distinction #1 is historically innacurate.

Also (distinction #2) what the UK do is of less interest to me - they're not claiming to be "on my side", so they haven't implied that they have my support. But I'm sick of SF & Co claiming that their version and vision of Ireland is what we should all be hoping for. There are lots of people doing lousy things worldwide, and we'll criticise them, sure, but I'll come down twice as strongly on anyone who does lousy things and then claims that they have my support, or are doing it for me, or that I'm less Irish because I don't agree with them.

Yes I agree, what the UK does is of no interest to me either, take Iraq for example couldn't give a continental fcuk. However, what happens to Irish people is of interest to me. I get the distinct impression from the above that you may think it's the 70's again or else that we are talking about Republican Sinn Féin a whole different party. Sinn Féin are claiming no more than any other political party at this stage.

Like Poblachtach's post above, querying "how exactly are you republican" ? Why query that ? How, exactly, is Poblachtach republican ? And what do we say if his explanation of how he views himself as republican differs from what we think is republican ? Who has the right to say/judge ?

Why don't you read what Poblachtach is responding to. He is querying it because someone else very specifically said that they were more republican than the average "shinner".

But I'm sick of having to explain my views by saying "yes, but I'm not an extremist or advocator of violence".

So you come on and use someone else's substantive point as launchpad for your own whataboutery that explains you views!???
I, for the record, am not one of those either.

To be fair to SF, given the progress they've helped to achieve in dragging their backward-facing supporters into the 21st century, there are a few things in SF's approach that do reflect some of my views, but until they agree that people who do bad things - particularly to innocent bystanders - should be accountable and punished, they are of no interest to me; I can't justify voting for a group with whom I have fundamental differences of opinion on matters of life and death and justice.

Yes credit where credit is due and what makes that achievement all the more remarkable is that they have done it all despite the backward faced opposers who seem hell bent on dragging them back to the to the past at every opportunity.

Think Iraq.....whatever about the fact that the "war" there is illegal and immoral, there is an argument that if two armies want to go at each other, then let 'em off......but when innocent Iraqis are being killed and tortured, then those involved are just as lawless as any other criminals.

When SF accept this, then I'll accept them.

I'm sorry but that makes no sense to me.

Rock Climber

is_that_so wrote:

So this has turned into yet another thread with trenchant diametrically opposed arguments about SF. I think this sums up their problem. To their supporters they are the only choice, to everyone else the jury is at the very least, out.

They are good on all things republican, they always have an answer as to how the North should be run but to my mind somewhat suspect on what should happen here. To date SF has been about establishing a Dail presence, now they are looking to make that a major presence with aspiration, long or short-term for government.

On that basis their policies will be open to a lot more scrutiny and even ridicule. In some respects that is an acknowledgement that they are perceived as a threat to other parties.

Attacking Sinn Fein policies is what happens in democracy the way FF, FG ,Labour or any other party is attacked. That's politics. Unfortunately some SF supporters view it an attack on their core beliefs.

They will be put on the spot by politicians, journalists and the public. The semantic gymnastics and ambivalence that they used in the North will not work here. We don't believe FF and we will certainly not believe any party that tells us to "do what you feel comfortable with" and not "go to the police".
They will have to add real flesh to their policies,defend them and provide justification and credibility for them. So far they haven't proven themselves able to do so and they, like every other party, can expect a grilling on what their policies will actually do for us.

Whatever way you look at the contribution Sinn Fein have made, for many voters the position of the North will be consigned to history for now,either because they will be part of an assembly or direct rule will have replaced it. As one commentator mentioned over the weekend it is important and worthy but terribly dull stuff. Even so the legacy of what they were connected to hangs over them in the minds of many people, which was really what prompted the original question and therefore the suggestion that for some it's easier to vote for the Green Party over SF.

That about sums it up from a neutral observers point of view.

This thread has done it's stuff and is being closed