Human rights & politics in Zimbabwe

dicebar

Hey,

When are the next elections up for in Zimbabwe?
I know Robert Mugabe is no good but does anyone know what the opposition parties are like in Zimbabwe? Is there any room for oppostion parties.

I see the life expectancy is 222 out of 225 countries but aids is a big contributing factor. I saw some mad stuff on utube though in relation to protesters being beaten.

Anyways there is a talk on Human Rights in Zimbabwe in DCU on March 8th, at 6pm in QG21, the business building.
Am trying to read up on Zimb before heading in to it.
Operation Marambatsina is soo wrong. How are UN inspectors not recommending actions against the Zimb. government, or are they and I have just missed it?

Zambia

dicebar wrote:

When are the next elections up for in Zimbabwe?
I know Robert Mugabe is no good but does anyone know what the opposition parties are like in Zimbabwe? Is there any room for oppostion parties.

I see the life expectancy is 222 out of 225 countries but aids is a big contributing factor. I saw some mad stuff on utube though in relation to protesters being beaten.

It was recorded by the bbc that several villages are denied foodstudffs till they vote and any election is not worth the paper its not submitted on.

Beating by authorities happen all over Africa to a lesser extent, I also assume you mean the average life expectantcy is 39 years old

You mean Operation Operation Murambatsvina (Drive Out Trash) as it means Shona. Just an attempt by Mugabe to drive out his opposition.

I would suggest using wickipedia and reading up on

Federation of Rhodesia And Nyasaland
Rhodesia and UDI
Zimbabwe
Robert Mugabe
ZAPU (Matabele old opposition) opposition to Mugabes ZANU PF (Mashona)
ZANU PF
and the present Movement for Democratic Change

If the present UK goverment had toppled President Mugabe instead of Saddam I would vote labour for life.

purple'n'gold

If the present UK goverment had toppled President Mugabe instead of Saddam I would vote labour for life.

Amen to that, its criminal to see a once self reliant country reduced to penury and its people starving because of the actions of an idiotic murderous cave man.

dicebar

yeah if they were to strike oil in zimbabwe i think there wopuld suddenly be a lot more international attention

spanner

Its a country that always has Fascinated me, A country with such good infrastructure and large natural wealth, it was second only to south africa in standard of living in south africa,

Mugabe seemed quite happy for the first 15 years of his reign to allow Whites to continue to own vast tracks of land and deal with big business. Zimbabwes economy during the 80s was much healthier compared to war torn Rodesia in the 1970s.

It seemed that when he needed the rural vote he began the process of intimating whites from the land. Which many people began to lose confience in the countries economy

cozmik

dicebar wrote:

Hey,

Is there any room for oppostion parties.

I hope this answers your question

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/africa/article2352779.ece

mike65

The pity is the kind of people who could form an effective mass oppostion have largely left (2 million have fled mainly into South Africa), meanwhile the agricultural output of some neighbouring countries has increased as farmers moved into Mozambique, Zambia, Nigeria etc.

However it looks like the Junta in Harare has realised its "error"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/zimbabwe/article/0,,1982144,00.html

Mike.

jawlie

purplengold wrote:

If the present UK goverment had toppled President Mugabe instead of Saddam I would vote labour for life.

Amen to that, its criminal to see a once self reliant country reduced to penury and its people starving because of the actions of an idiotic murderous cave man.

While it is always attractive to want to believe that its all the fault of one "idiotic" or evil man, the truth is rarely so simple or convenient. The facts are that the disgusting Mr Mugabe could not rule the country without the help and connivance of many others, including the police force and the army, and other African countries.

It is an uncomfortable truth, and we in the west have decided to do not more than wring our hands and express moral outrage.

When South Africa was racist, we in the wesdt imposed sanctions and jumped up and down and picketed embassys. That was when white men were racist towards black men.

Now that South Africa is again a racist state, with government dictated racist policies, there isn't a peep out of anyone in the west. Funny, isn't it?

InFront

No, not particularly funny. Neither is it true to say 'not a peep out of anyone in the west'. There wasn't terribly serious support for South Africans until the end-stage of apartheid, it wasn't all blown away with one quick moral outrage in Europe and a Wine Boycott, it was mostly down to the South Africans.
The most important opposition to Mugabe will be within Zimbabwe and not western leaders taking the moral high ground on conscientious politics when it is European and American behaviour towards Africa in general that aggravates these situations.
If you read in this mornings IT about the attack on the opposition leader, they make the point how this should actually rally people around the opposition. That is what is needed.

It's also not true to attribute Mugabe's regime to a particularly common political outlook in Zimbabwe, there are moderates within the Zanus who aren't happy with his continued regime, there are reports of serious in-fighting amongst them.

DadaKopf

Ireland is playing against Zimbabwe in cricket today. I haven't found any evidence of a protest going ahead, just talk of one.

I think it's a disgrace nothing more concerted is being done in a sport that, I imagine, would have massive symbolic value for the opposition in Zimbabwe, and by a country with little to lose by doing so.

InFront

I don't think I'd agree with that at all, if the Zimbabwe players wanted to do it themselves as before, that's obviously fine. I just don't think it's our place to be dragging their Government's politics onto the cricket pitch. Especially if it had been in the context of a defeat: 'not only do we beat you guys in the cricket, we're also tut tutting at your country'. I wouldn't care if we were playing Iraq, politics has a time and a place and it isn't in sport.

DadaKopf

It would show solidarity with the opposition.

InFront

It wouldn't really be solidarity though, the armband and the political mess has already been pretty disastrous and divisive for the unity of Zimbabwean cricket, I don't see how us having adapted it would have been helpful or useful at all. Politics is for politicians and sports is for sportsmen.

FTA69

purplengold wrote:

If the present UK goverment had toppled President Mugabe instead of Saddam I would vote labour for life.

I think the Brits did enough damage in Africa already.

purple'n'gold

FTA69 wrote:

I think the Brits did enough damage in Africa already.

When the brits were in Africa there was law and order and food for the people. Most African countries are incapable of running their own affairs. Sad to say and not politically correct, but alas true.

runswithascript

I bought chillies in Tesco recently imported from Rhodesia [sic] and only discovered this when I came home. Should I not buy them, or would I be depriving those in power enough to not worry about the little of my money which may have made its way to the common man?

mike65

South Africa could end Mugabes rule in a day but that country is led by a moral coward.

Mike.

DadaKopf

purplengold wrote:

When the brits were in Africa there was law and order and food for the people.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

purple'n'gold

DadaKopf wrote:

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

??? Black africans are really good at looking after themselves? please explain?

mike65

Dadakopf going for "Poster of the Year" award there.


Mike.

jawlie

I read in today's SA Mail & Guardian that the cricis in Zim deepens. Having paid a brief visit to Zim last September, I can only weep for the people there, and hope it brings Mugabe's ruinous and disgusting regime to a speedy end.

Mugabe's recent years are a textbook example of the path followed by all dictators, and the extent of the atrocities carried out under his orders will probably never be known. His callous disregard for the truth, and for the dignity and sanctity of his fellow humans is disgusting. I hope he will end up being tried for his crimes against humanity and hope Zim can rebuild itself to support, once more, its people.

Mick86

Zambia232 wrote:

If the present UK goverment had toppled President Mugabe instead of Saddam I would vote labour for life.

Why?

jawlie wrote:

It is an uncomfortable truth, and we in the west have decided to do not more than wring our hands and express moral outrage.

When South Africa was racist, we in the wesdt imposed sanctions and jumped up and down and picketed embassys. That was when white men were racist towards black men.

Now that South Africa is again a racist state, with government dictated racist policies, there isn't a peep out of anyone in the west. Funny, isn't it?

What would you do? Organise a petition? Impose sanctions? Invade one or both countries and depose their governments?

gbh

Another example of Mugabe's tyranny.

http://allafrica.com/stories/200707090031.html

mike65

The Sunday Times had a grim feature yesterday.

Mike.

purple'n'gold

gbh wrote:

Another example of Mugabe's tyranny.

http://allafrica.com/stories/200707090031.html

I'v just read that article, you couldnt make it up. It's absolutely pathetic.

mike65

More today, still with 4,000% inflation I guess everyone is due a rise....

Shops across Zimbabwe were surrounded by thousands of shoppers today as enforced price cuts led to panic buying and empty shelves.

The desperate scenes came as it emerged that President Mugabe's Government has told businesses on the verge of collapse that they must increase wages for their staff.

The nation has been plunged deeper into a humanitarian crisis by a crackdown on price increases, which has brought the economy close to total collapse. Mr Mugabe branded inflation the country’s main enemy and slashed prices for food, supplies and fuel two weeks ago.

The President has accused shops and services of profiteering and banned them from raising prices. As a result of the cuts, a wave of panic buying has swept the country leaving many businesses on the verge of collapse, with no money to buy new stock.

Obert Mpofu, chairman of the Cabinet Taskforce on Price Monitoring and Stabilisation, told businessmen that despite being forced to halve their prices and sell at a loss, they were expected to increase their workers’ wages. Business owners refusing to cut prices for bus journeys, supplies and services have faced arrest and fines.

Zimbabwe’s top cleric urges Britain to invade

Mike.

nonbeliever

dusf wrote:

I bought chillies in Tesco recently imported from Rhodesia [sic] and only discovered this when I came home. Should I not buy them, or would I be depriving those in power enough to not worry about the little of my money which may have made its way to the common man?

Jaysus I wouldnt eat em. They'd be nearly 30years gone-off if they came from Rhodesia!

eoin5

purplengold wrote:

When the brits were in Africa there was law and order and food for the people. Most African countries are incapable of running their own affairs. Sad to say and not politically correct, but alas true.

Oh come on purple, you really think that !?! Do you think that ZANU would rise up just for the fun of it in the first place. What would an invasion do to stop the AIDS and the drought?

Its true that they arent looking after themselves too well at the moment but when Mugabe is ousted and with help from the UN they'll manage ok again, but it will take a very long time. The main problem is to get Mugabe out of power, it doesnt look like an easy task with the vote rigging and the disorganised opposition. The last thing we need though is another botched attempt to turn a dictatorship into a capitalist uptopia.

Voipjunkie

Zambia232 wrote:

If the present UK goverment had toppled President Mugabe instead of Saddam I would vote labour for life.

Any UK government has no place in Zimbabwe as a former colonial power it would merely play into the hands of the current government that the opposition is an imperialist counter revolutionary plot.
Any UK involvement is only likely to strengthen the current regime

purple'n'gold

eoin5 wrote:

Oh come on purple, you really think that !?! Do you think that ZANU would rise up just for the fun of it in the first place. What would an invasion do to stop the AIDS and the drought?

Its true that they arent looking after themselves too well at the moment but when Mugabe is ousted and with help from the UN they'll manage ok again, but it will take a very long time. The main problem is to get Mugabe out of power, it doesnt look like an easy task with the vote rigging and the disorganised opposition. The last thing we need though is another botched attempt to turn a dictatorship into a capitalist uptopia.

I’m sorry to be so politically incorrect. But please name me one sub Saharan country that is successful, economically, socially and politically.

El Stuntman

purplengold wrote:

I’m sorry to be so politically incorrect. But please name me one sub Saharan country that is successful, economically, socially and politically.

Botswana

eoin5

purplengold wrote:

I’m sorry to be so politically incorrect. But please name me one sub Saharan country that is successful, economically, socially and politically.

Botswana is one alright, but a lot of the other countries are doing something right. Although there are still many horrible things happening in the country, Uganda is getting their act together and have made serious progress in the last 15 years with their economy and the fight against AIDS. Its not all doom and gloom for those African countries managing themselves.

lostexpectation

mike65 wrote:

More today, still with 4,000% inflation I guess everyone is due a rise....




Zimbabwe’s top cleric urges Britain to invade

Mike.

****ing colonialist

purple'n'gold

El Stuntman wrote:

Botswana

Granted, compared to other sub Saharan African countries Botswana
Is doing ok, but it still has a horrendous aids problem.

El Stuntman

purplengold wrote:

Granted, compared to other sub Saharan African countries Botswana
Is doing ok, but it still has a horrendous aids problem.

horrible AIDS problem, I agree.

btw the reason for its stability is that De Beers runs the country

lostexpectation

El Stuntman wrote:

horrible AIDS problem, I agree.

btw the reason for its stability is that De Beers runs the country

and you call that economically, socially and politically successful.

mike65

Steady on! I think any sub-Saharan country thats not starving and at war is doing quite well, don't look for perfection.

Mike.

El Stuntman

lostexpectation wrote:

and you call that economically, socially and politically successful.

yes, by African standards it's highly successful. Most Africans would love to live in Botswana.

It's crazy to try and apply First World standards to Africa, I've eventually learned that over many years of travelling there.

lostexpectation

El Stuntman wrote:

yes, by African standards it's highly successful. Most Africans would love to live in Botswana.

It's crazy to try and apply First World standards to Africa, I've eventually learned that over many years of travelling there.

Having company run a country is akin to a fascist corporate state.

I'd call it a continuing failure, a fascist corporate state, colonism 2.0.

El Stuntman

lostexpectation wrote:

Having company run a country is akin to a fascist corporate state.

I'd call it a continuing failure, a fascist corporate state, colonism 2.0.

sure that's your opinion, by all means go nuts on the labelling...

but, go to Gaberone and have a look around, talk to people. The country is peaceful, stable, relatively wealthy with reasonable standards of education. By African standards (I've highlighted this, as it's the point you are missing), this is a considerable achievement...

here, read this:

"Through fiscal discipline and sound management, Botswana has transformed itself from one of the poorest countries in the world to a middle-income country with a per capita GDP of more than $11,000 in 2006. Two major investment services rank Botswana as the best credit risk in Africa. Diamond mining has fueled much of the expansion and currently accounts for more than one-third of GDP and for 70-80% of export earnings. Tourism, financial services, subsistence farming, and cattle raising are other key sectors. On the downside, the government must deal with high rates of unemployment and poverty. Unemployment officially was 23.8% in 2004, but unofficial estimates place it closer to 40%. HIV/AIDS infection rates are the second highest in the world and threaten Botswana's impressive economic gains. An expected leveling off in diamond mining production overshadows long-term prospects."

mike65

Ah El Stuntman you quoted from the CIA World Factbook and lostexpectation might view that with suspicion.

Mike.

El Stuntman

mike65 wrote:

Ah El Stuntman you quoted from the CIA World Factbook and lostexpectation might view that with suspicion.

Mike.

lol

I like that factbook thingy and use it quite often for professional reasons

what would be a suitably above-board alternative source? Al Jazeera?

gbh

El Stuntman wrote:

here, read this:

"Through fiscal discipline and sound management, Botswana has transformed itself from one of the poorest countries in the world to a middle-income country with a per capita GDP of more than $11,000 in 2006.

This per-capita GDP tells us very little. It might well be accounted for by huge exports of diamonds by DeBeers with profits going to that company. It is very likely that the ordinary person on the street is on a good deal less than $11,000 per year. Indeed such a disparity between the statistical per-capita GDP and the real GDP of the average citizen is a classic sign of exploitation of countries by mining companies.

El Stuntman wrote:

On the downside, the government must deal with high rates of unemployment and poverty. Unemployment officially was 23.8% in 2004, but unofficial estimates place it closer to 40%. HIV/AIDS infection rates are the second highest in the world and threaten Botswana's impressive economic gains. An expected leveling off in diamond mining production overshadows long-term prospects."

Just a normal African country then highly dependent on non-sustainable mining.

gbh

The more you research sub-saharn African countries, the more you see that their problems are caused by disastrously bad or corrupt government. Take Swaziland as another example. The king bought each of his 10 wives a $90000 BMW a few years ago and a $500000 car for himself. I think he is building a massive palace for himself to add to the several he already owns. Presumedly these things are paid for out of the national treasury. Yet most of the population are highly dependent on food aid and many women have been forced into prostitution to get food which is leading in turn to an epidemic of Hiv/Aids. So one man is directly responsible like Mugabe for the running down of his country.

purple'n'gold

gbh wrote:

The more you research sub-saharn African countries, the more you see that their problems are caused by disastrously bad or corrupt government. Take Swaziland as another example. The king bought each of his 10 wives a $90000 BMW a few years ago and a $500000 car for himself. I think he is building a massive palace for himself to add to the several he already owns. Presumedly these things are paid for out of the national treasury. Yet most of the population are highly dependent on food aid and many women have been forced into prostitution to get food which is leading in turn to an epidemic of Hiv/Aids. So one man is directly responsible like Mugabe for the running down of his country.

Ah, yes, African “royalty” they really know how to party. You cant beat a bit of class.

DadaKopf

gbh wrote:

The more you research sub-saharn African countries, the more you see that their problems are caused by disastrously bad or corrupt government. Take Swaziland as another example. The king bought each of his 10 wives a $90000 BMW a few years ago and a $500000 car for himself. I think he is building a massive palace for himself to add to the several he already owns. Presumedly these things are paid for out of the national treasury. Yet most of the population are highly dependent on food aid and many women have been forced into prostitution to get food which is leading in turn to an epidemic of Hiv/Aids. So one man is directly responsible like Mugabe for the running down of his country.

I have researched it. It's my job. And it's not that simple, actually. First of all: Africa is a continent, not a country.

gbh

DadaKopf wrote:

I have researched it. It's my job. And it's not that simple, actually. First of all: Africa is a continent, not a country.

I think we all agree Africa is a continent.

Maybe you would like to enlighten us with the knowledge acquired during your research...

DadaKopf

Well, for one, that you can't blame all of Africa's problems on corruption and bad government because, firstly, Africa's a continent with many different countries with different cultures, histories and regimes, and secondly, there are so many other reasons.

I don't have all the answers, but my comment is a corrective to yours.

However, I would say that the root cause of global poverty is power and the unjust structures created by the powerful against the weak.

Voipjunkie

DadaKopf wrote:

However, I would say that the root cause of global poverty is power and the unjust structures created by the powerful against the weak.

Largely the legacy of imperialism of the last couple of centuries and the current form of imperialism.

DadaKopf

I'd say that has a lot to do with it. Also geography and disease burden.

gbh

Ok but going forward, I think the Zimbabwaen government is not being isolated enough. Despite everything Mugabe still has a few supporters among leaders in and outside of Africa and is still treated as a dignatory when he travels around the continent. Its time his government was ignored by other leaders until he leaves office. I suppose some of them are afraid of setting a predecent of removing leaders.