Sindo reporting of young man knocked down & killed in Lucan

HelterSkelter

Just read the Sindo's report now in which they made the false allegations that the young man who was knocked down and killed in Lucan the other night was "known to Gardaí", their codeword for calling him a criminal.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1787941&issue_id=15332

sindo wrote:

It was initially reported that the 24-year-old, who was known to gardai, was the victim of a road accident after he was struck by a car in Lucan, Co Dublin, at approximately 5am.

Then later in the same report...

sindo wrote:

It is understood the 24-year-old victim was known to gardai and had a number of previous convictions.

He is from the Neilstown area of Clondalkin in West Dublin, but investigating officers have so far been unable to establish how he travelled to Lucan.

Does anyone else think it is a disgrace that they can make totally unfounded allegations about a dead person like this? (Was it also the Indo that reported Liam Lawler was in the car with a prostitute when he was killed?). Listening to the news at one today it sounds like they could not have got it more wrong. It seems that if the Indo had bothered to investigate these claims a little they would have realised that they were untrue.

Another thing I would like to know is where they got this information from? Did it come from the Guards? The car who knocked him down was driven by an off-duty Guard.

Another point is why do they have to mention that a person who was killed in an accident had criminal connections at all? If it is not linked to the circumstances of their death then what is the reason for mentioning it? Are we supposed to feel less sympathy for someone killed because they may have criminal convictions?

constitutionus

its just the usual shoddy level of journalism you can expect in ireland these days . the mans mother was on the six one news on RTE fumming at the reports and rightly pointing out that its more than likely because he was just from clondalkin. turns out the guy not only isnt a criminal but was actively involved in helping kids with lukemia having gone through several bouts of it himself when he was a kid.

TBH honest i think its a disgrace. the implication that people in clondalkin wouldnt know anyone in lucan despite the fact the two towns are right next to each other can only be put down to elitist snobbery in the indo and i hope the family sue the **** out of them for defamation. the real focus of this story should be why a off duty gardai was going so fast he didnt see the guy lying in the road. and how the hell did he end up in that position in the first place. theres something deeply dodgy here.

blue4ever

“the real focus of this story should be why a off duty gardai was going so fast he didnt see the guy lying in the road”


Now that’s funny – you’re on screaming the house down about inaccurate reporting – but can’t seen the stop yourself from falling into the same trap.

Who said/has accused him (bar you) of speeding – how do you know. I have seen no reports of him speeding/arests made for the same – or did you ‘come to that conclusion’ – possibly like someone did the same on Saturday night in the Indo?

Not defending the Indo – just saying that if your going to preach about ‘accuracy’ you have to be ‘accurate’

constitutionus

so when your driving through a village main street you cant see a body on the road with enough time to stop driving over him? that was on the news and in case you hadnt noticed im not a journalist getting paid to make up ****e instead of investigating the incident itself. which is what the story is, how the guy died, not wheather or not he's any fictional past history with the gardai.

the fact is the indo printed stuff they knew was false, and if you dont think thats worthy of scorn thats your business but its getting to be a habit with the indo.

mike65

We all have our prejudices.

Mike.

Jackie laughlin

Helter's question about whether we should know the background/record (assuming truth) of an accident victim is worth a thread of its own.

copacetic

I had to laugh when I saw the readership figures on the front page of the sindo. They put themselves in with the 'quality broadsheets' and put the mail/sunday world/ NOTW etc in the 'popular tabloids'.

They are at least as tabloid as the rest of them, if not more so. I'm assuming it is the Sindo that call themselves a quality broadsheet rather that the ABC people though?

blue4ever

constitutionus wrote:

that was on the news and in case you hadnt noticed im not a journalist getting paid to make up ****e instead of investigating the incident itself. which is what the story is, how the guy died, not wheather or not he's any fictional past history with the gardai.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/?jp=MHAUAUIDOJSN

No sorry - your 'newsdesk' was the only one to report speed and some form of Garda cover-up. Can you provide the link to your 'Source'

Secondly – the link there seems to suggest that the Indo reported what they were told by the Garda – that he was know to them – which transpires is incorrect - now, 24/48 hours earlier.

Not really their problem – if we go down the road of ‘cotton wool' reporting the media would be sh1t, stories beginning and ending thus :

‘Mans Dies’

‘Another Man Dies’

‘Woman Found Dead’

Which brings me to the comment by Jackie – in my opinion – 100%

The media buying public have a salacious appetite for either looking through the ‘letterbox’ of someone’s life or counting the money in their pocket.

‘Man Hit by car in Lucan’ and a story written in the same style as the headline wouldn’t raise an eyebrow.

If a story involved a person that had previous – then he/she had previous!

Simple – and if you can say that, to the buying public, that he fact that he had previous wouldn’t make a difference, - wrong – they lap it up!

Same as that ‘PC’ crap I read earlier in the year – John Ward was a lovely man and shouldn’t be known as ‘frog;’ cos it taints ‘our’ view of him! Previous, previous, previous, Frog, Frog, Frog.

Ciaran500

constitutionus wrote:

so when your driving through a village main street you cant see a body on the road with enough time to stop driving over him?

It wasn't on the main street. The road where he was killed was on the opposite side of the Liffey to the village. Its a winding road with alot of blind corners, it wouldn't be hard to hit someone lying on the ground around one of them.

Jip

The accident actually happened on the village side of the Liffey.
The car appeared to come over the bridge over the Liffey from the Clonsilla side and when you come that way you come to a mini roundabout. You can't really see up to the left until you're almost on the roundabout and even at that, you wouldn't be expecting anyone lying on the ground if that's what happened.

Plissken1

Jip wrote:

The accident actually happened on the village side of the Liffey.
The car appeared to come over the bridge over the Liffey from the Clonsilla side and when you come that way you come to a mini roundabout. You can't really see up to the left until you're almost on the roundabout and even at that, you wouldn't be expecting anyone lying on the ground if that's what happened.

You wouldnt see anyone on the ground at that hour of the morning on those roads, And there are always people fighting on the streets on Sunday mornings, so maybe he was attacked. I know I have had a few close shaves walking home in the wee hours around this area. Lucan / Leixlip area is notorious for rows on Sunday mornings, its a pain in the arse actually, i'd rather hop in a taxi.

And you can be sure, someone deos know what really happened, whether they come forward is another thing. As for him being from Clondalkin, loads of people around that area are originally from Ballyer or Clondalkin.

Jackie laughlin

It was 5 a.m. in a well lit main street. Lucan village is not at all disorderly at night. (For the love of God, there's a regional Garda station there!)

Plissken1

Jackie laughlin wrote:

It was 5 a.m. in a well lit main street. Lucan village is not at all disorderly at night. (For the love of God, there's a regional Garda station there!)

HAHAHA

Dont make me laugh, you need to get out more, its a bloody minefield

I have a mate from Ballyfermot who refuses to walk around there at night cos there is so many mouthy gits knocking around. you probably also beleive in the easter bunny if you think its a pleasant place on a Sunday morning, i am afraid all the pleasant people are tucked up in bed, and your left with the Coke heads moving between house parties.

ye welcome to the happy suburbs ! welcome to the coked up urban sprawl !

Jackie laughlin

I live there! I socialise in the village. It is of course not without problems but I cannot think of any public place which is safer at night.

Plissken1

Jackie laughlin wrote:

I live there! I socialise in the village. It is of course not without problems but I cannot think of any public place which is safer at night.

haha ye so do I, try staying out a bit later than midnight, its whole differant crowd, all the pill heads and coke heads go looking for house parties, thats when the fun starts. Same with Leixlip, and soon it will be the same with this so called utopia they are calling Adamstown, thats gonna be a laugh, more housing estates, just what we need. Oh the fun of living in the suburbs of Dublin, thousands of houses, a couple of pubs and a few shops. Its just like England. We even have our own Chav's now.

Ciaran500

Plissken1 wrote:

HAHAHA

Dont make me laugh, you need to get out more, its a bloody minefield

I have a mate from Ballyfermot who refuses to walk around there at night cos there is so many mouthy gits knocking around. you probably also beleive in the easter bunny if you think its a pleasant place on a Sunday morning, i am afraid all the pleasant people are tucked up in bed, and your left with the Coke heads moving between house parties.

ye welcome to the happy suburbs ! welcome to the coked up urban sprawl !

Have to agree with Jackie here, I've lived most of my life in the village and the last 3 years I've been about 2 min walk from the village and I've only ever been attacked once by some group of kids when I was about 13. Never had any other trouble in all my years here and I've walked around here at all hours.

EDIT:

Plissken1 wrote:

haha ye so do I, try staying out a bit later than midnight, its whole differant crowd, all the pill heads and coke heads go looking for house parties, thats when the fun starts. Same with Leixlip, and soon it will be the same with this so called utopia they are calling Adamstown, thats gonna be a laugh, more housing estates, just what we need. Oh the fun of living in the suburbs of Dublin, thousands of houses, a couple of pubs and a few shops. Its just like England. We even have our own Chav's now.

Where do you walk through? Its not unusual for me to be coming home from my friends between 2 - 4 and I see none of this?

luckat

What are the actual facts of the case, please?

(Incidentally, under most libel laws, including those in Ireland, you can't libel the dead. Libel damages compensate for future losses that would be caused by detraction from your character.)

r3nu4l

Plissken1 wrote:

Oh the fun of living in the suburbs of Dublin, thousands of houses, a couple of pubs and a few shops. Its just like England. We even have our own Chav's now.

I'm from Lucan and can say that having lived in Lucan for 23 years, Maynooth for 6 years and England for 2.5 years (do the maths ) I can tell you I'd rather live in Lucan anyday

On-topic, the reporting was absolutely scandalous and I can only wonder if the SIndo will be using that particular source in the future. Knowing the SIndo...probably!

blue4ever

not the issue - its not about liable - seemingly its a witch-hunt about who said what – or who inferred what

look even the comments posted here

‘the copper was speeding’ – no there is no evidence of that
‘well lit road’ – actually where he was hit was not.

So – even the appetite of the posters is that which has them ‘putting a bit of polish on the story’ to win an argument. But on the other hand they are giving out about papers who reproduce wrong facts

It’s the normal two faced sh1t when some people begin discussing the media.

copacetic

blue4ever wrote:

not the issue - its not about liable - seemingly its a witch-hunt about who said what – or who inferred what

look even the comments posted here

‘the copper was speeding’ – no there is no evidence of that
‘well lit road’ – actually where he was hit was not.

So – even the appetite of the posters is that which has them ‘putting a bit of polish on the story’ to win an argument. But on the other hand they are giving out about papers who reproduce wrong facts

It’s the normal two faced sh1t when some people begin discussing the media.

I don't think that is at all fair, the Sindo is a nationally distributed newspaper that calls itself a quality broadsheet and it printed unattributed facts without checking them. Most reporters would actually check 'facts' like this. Blaming it on the source is rubbish, thats just the standard newspaper excuse for printing anything - some guy told us it was true.

That's gutter press coverage.

The posters above are, like you say, posting 'facts' that appear not to be true. However they have a couple of hundred readers who mostly don't believe anything on here, not a hundred thousand..

Trotter

Thats strike 2 for the Indo. I think they should have a huge fine imposed now, something big enough to keep some charities going for years, and big enough that no newspaper will stoop that low in future.

Jackie laughlin

As has been pointed out there was no libel, just familiar sensationalism.

I'm certain that the Gardai will treat this honestly and well. However, their credibility has been shot (no pun intended) to hell in recent years. It is essential that Gardai be investigated by non Gardai.

constitutionus

blue4ever wrote:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/?jp=MHAUAUIDOJSN

No sorry - your 'newsdesk' was the only one to report speed and some form of Garda cover-up. Can you provide the link to your 'Source'

Secondly – the link there seems to suggest that the Indo reported what they were told by the Garda – that he was know to them – which transpires is incorrect - now, 24/48 hours earlier.

Not really their problem – if we go down the road of ‘cotton wool' reporting the media would be sh1t, stories beginning and ending thus :

‘Mans Dies’

‘Another Man Dies’

‘Woman Found Dead’

Which brings me to the comment by Jackie – in my opinion – 100%

The media buying public have a salacious appetite for either looking through the ‘letterbox’ of someone’s life or counting the money in their pocket.

‘Man Hit by car in Lucan’ and a story.

well then why dont we stop calling them "newspapers" then and just call them gossip dailies instead because once you go outside the facts thats all it is.

and by the way i got my info from the gardai press office where they clearly say he was lying in the road and was run over by the car. now unless your saying the driver did that deliberatly then its patently obvious he was going too fast to stop. if you want to fixate on that little issue go ahead but your missing the real story here. why the hell was he lying in the middle of the road?

copacetic

Jackie laughlin wrote:

As has been pointed out there was no libel, just familiar sensationalism.

I'm certain that the Gardai will treat this honestly and well. However, their credibility has been shot (no pun intended) to hell in recent years. It is essential that Gardai be investigated by non Gardai.

is it not libel to say he had 'a number of previous convictions' when apparently he didn't? No expert on libel laws I'll admit, would it be defamation then? or is it just because he died that they can say whatever they want, true or not? Would the family have a case?

I don't think sensationalism is the same as making things up?

HelterSkelter

daveym wrote:

is it not libel to say he had 'a number of previous convictions' when apparently he didn't? No expert on libel laws I'll admit, would it be defamation then? or is it just because he died that they can say whatever they want, true or not? Would the family have a case?

I don't think sensationalism is the same as making things up?

As far as I know they can say whatever they want once you are dead. That's how they got away with claiming Liam Lawlor was with a prostitute at the time of his death.

partholon

HelterSkelter wrote:

As far as I know they can say whatever they want once you are dead. That's how they got away with claiming Liam Lawlor was with a prostitute at the time of his death.

thought the ukranian woman was sueing the hell out of em along with about 5 other papers who picked it up?

copacetic

partholon wrote:

thought the ukranian woman was sueing the hell out of em along with about 5 other papers who picked it up?

she is, but only because she survived obviously enough.

copacetic

HelterSkelter wrote:

As far as I know they can say whatever they want once you are dead. That's how they got away with claiming Liam Lawlor was with a prostitute at the time of his death.

but it would have been libel if he had survived? Could the family make a case for pain and suffering or something? Being sued seems to be the only thing that makes the papers think twice..

HelterSkelter

partholon wrote:

thought the ukranian woman was sueing the hell out of em along with about 5 other papers who picked it up?

Yeah she is, but the media are saying her case is weak as she does not live in Ireland and it was an Irish paper who published the claims in Ireland. Therefore her reputation has not been damaged my the Sindo as this paper is not published in her home country.

partholon

HelterSkelter wrote:

Yeah she is, but the media are saying her case is weak as she does not live in Ireland and it was an Irish paper who published the claims in Ireland. Therefore her reputation has not been damaged my the Sindo as this paper is not published in her home country.

if memory serves she was liams interpretor and did alot of international work therefore she could make a case that they defamed her in the eyes of other potential employers in irish business circles and political parties by maintaining she was a prostitute. ya have to admit not many political types would like to be associate with prostitution even if only by association. she might stick it to em yet for potential loss of earnings

copacetic

partholon wrote:

if memory serves she was liams interpretor and did alot of international work therefore she could make a case that they defamed her in the eyes of other potential employers in irish business circles and political parties by maintaining she was a prostitute. ya have to admit not many political types would like to be associate with prostitution even if only by association. she might stick it to em yet for potential loss of earnings

also I think when the case was postponed a couple of weeks back she had witnesses from various different countries who had read about the story in various online editions of the papers that printed it..

Karmafaerie

Trotter wrote:

Thats strike 2 for the Indo. I think they should have a huge fine imposed now, something big enough to keep some charities going for years, and big enough that no newspaper will stoop that low in future.

Strike 2, are you kidding me!
There was a list a mile long, (well, if it was written in really, really big letters!;) ) a few months ago, of unfounded, sensational lies printed by the Sindo.
Every week, they print some new crap.

blue4ever

unattributed facts:

there seems to be an theory that the Garda ‘let that slip’ – so if that’s he case – what happens then – they have to re-check a normally reliable source – where does that stop

No – reporters, especially ones with a serious deadline would rely on their sources – the Cops – do we now check the cops (no revisionist theories pls)

One, One hundred, one hundred thousand – that’s bo11ox – aka – you argument would suggest that the greater the readership/circulation/listnership/viewership – the more accurate you have to be???? If it said to one person that’s enough.

copacetic

blue4ever wrote:

unattributed facts:

there seems to be an theory that the Garda ‘let that slip’ – so if that’s he case – what happens then – they have to re-check a normally reliable source – where does that stop

No – reporters, especially ones with a serious deadline would rely on their sources – the Cops – do we now check the cops (no revisionist theories pls)

One, One hundred, one hundred thousand – that’s bo11ox – aka – you argument would suggest that the greater the readership/circulation/listnership/viewership – the more accurate you have to be???? If it said to one person that’s enough.

rubbish. any proper media outlet would be expected to check their facts. What do you mean 'more accurate', I'd expect any newspaper just to be accurate. Printing what a guard says when there were guards involved in the accident seems very poor reporting. What do you mean where does it stop? It stops when they have actually checked the facts, if the guy had previous convictions there would be an easily checked record.

As for saying that what someone says on an internet forum and what is printed in national paper are the same thing, well you are entitled to your opinion. What's on here is opinion, what is printed in the Sindo is held up as fact, by themselves.

TheNog

constitutionus wrote:

your missing the real story here. why the hell was he lying in the middle of the road?

It was reported about 3-4 weeks ago that 5 people in 2002-03 ( can't remember which) were confirmed to be killed while they were lying on the road. I assume that some if not most were drunk and fell asleep.

blue4ever

daveym wrote:

rubbish. any proper media outlet would be expected to check their facts. What do you mean 'more accurate', I'd expect any newspaper just to be accurate. Printing what a guard says when there were guards involved in the accident seems very poor reporting. What do you mean where does it stop? It stops when they have actually checked the facts, if the guy had previous convictions there would be an easily checked record.

As for saying that what someone says on an internet forum and what is printed in national paper are the same thing, well you are entitled to your opinion. What's on here is opinion, what is printed in the Sindo is held up as fact, by themselves.

You really are some horses arse – when did you think that a group of people writing differs – a forum – a paper – the former is ‘seemingly’ above liable – the latter not? What’s the difference – you can say what you want the others cannot – you have displayed an amazing knack of checking your facts - none.

The paper was given a ‘tip’ by possibly a (up to then) good source - a cop – he/she said he had previous

– what, Sherlock, would you have done at 6:00am in the morning – presses rolling, people on standby. Tell me – go with the ‘source’ or wait till the fcuking National Library opened at 10.00 on Monday to you ‘check’ a previously good source

Nancy - no spine - no conviction – I’d say you work in the Library and are jealous….

p.s;

I also had the decency to give the establishment the ‘capital’- its accurate – so – it’s Garda not ‘guard’. That’s Gaelic by the way. National Library is really lacking…

copacetic

blue4ever wrote:

You really are some horses arse – when did you think that a group of people writing differs – a forum – a paper – the former is ‘seemingly’ above liable – the latter not? What’s the difference – you can say what you want the others cannot – you have displayed an amazing knack of checking your facts - none.

The paper was given a ‘tip’ by possibly a (up to then) good source - a cop – he/she said he had previous

– what, Sherlock, would you have done at 6:00am in the morning – presses rolling, people on standby. Tell me – go with the ‘source’ or wait till the fcuking National Library opened at 10.00 on Monday to you ‘check’ a previously good source

Nancy - no spine - no conviction – I’d say you work in the Library and are jealous….

p.s;

I also had the decency to give the establishment the ‘capital’- its accurate – so – it’s Garda not ‘guard’. That’s Gaelic by the way. National Library is really lacking…

I'll try to ignore all the personal abuse (very brave by the way) but will report the post.

What 'facts' have I stated that aren't true? I think you will find the forum is liable for what is put on here. The difference is that a reporter is supposed to uphold professional standards and the newspapers say they are self regulating in this regard.

I wouldn't have written the story without the unchecked 'facts' by the way. Not sure why you think they would need to go to the National Library, a quick check of their own court reports online archives would have done the trick.

flogen

blue4ever, attack the post, not the poster.

There is no need nor tolerance for personal abuse on the forum - consider this a warning.

XYZ123ABC

blue4ever wrote:

.....seems to suggest that the Indo reported what they were told by the Garda – that he was know to them – which transpires is incorrect..........Not really their problem – if we go down the road of ‘cotton wool' reporting the media would be sh1t, stories beginning and ending thus :

‘Mans Dies’ ‘Another Man Dies’ ‘Woman Found Dead’

What exactly are you trying to say?

Do you define 'cotton wool' reporting as accurate reporting? And, so you believe accurate reporting to be "sh1t"? So the media should be entirely free to report falsehoods simply to keep the likes of you entertained?

"Not really their problem"? Are you honestly saying it's not a problem for the Indo that they printed nasty falsehoods about a young man who had just died?

Should that not be a shameful problem?

On the same day the Irish Times had a completely anodyne report on the incident, no lies about Derek O'Toole’s life – and you can be damn sure their reporter had access to the same sources as the Indo. But they chose not to publish falsehoods about him. Do you think they might have actually double-checked? Does that make the Irish Times a lesser ‘news’paper in your eyes?

blue4ever wrote:

The media buying public have a salacious appetite for either looking through the ‘letterbox’ of someone’s life or counting the money in their pocket. ‘Man Hit by car in Lucan’ and a story written in the same style as the headline wouldn’t raise an eyebrow. If a story involved a person that had previous – then he/she had previous! Simple – and if you can say that, to the buying public, that he fact that he had previous wouldn’t make a difference, - wrong – they lap it up!

Aren't you missing one teeny point in this theory of yours, ie the victim in this case had NO 'previous'. Absolutely none.

However salacious a section of the public (eg you) might like its media to be, I'd hazard a guess they, on the whole, would like the salaciousness to have even a tiny grain of truth - that's how and why salaciousness works, otherwise it's 100% fiction, and you might as well buy a cheap novel.

blue4ever wrote:

Same as that ‘PC’ crap I read earlier in the year – John Ward was a lovely man and shouldn’t be known as ‘frog;’ cos it taints ‘our’ view of him! Previous, previous, previous, Frog, Frog, Frog.

John Ward had 'previous'.

Derek O'Toole had none.

Why are you even mentioning the two men in the same argument?

Because the Indo told you Derek O'Toole was "known to the Gardai" and had "previous convictions" you accept that as being the truth, even though it's not?

Are those of us who are repulsed by the Indo’s falsehoods about Derek O'Toole indulging in ‘PC’ crap?

An innocent young man, who led a remarkable life (battled back from Leukaemia twice and went on to help others going through the same trauma), dies in tragic and mysterious circumstances, leaving his family shattered. Those offended by the Indo’s slur on this young man are ‘politically correct’ tossers? I’m not religious…..but God help you.

blue4ever wrote:

there seems to be an theory that the Garda ‘let that slip’ – so if that’s he case – what happens then – they have to re-check a normally reliable source – where does that stop

No – reporters, especially ones with a serious deadline would rely on their sources – the Cops – do we now check the cops (no revisionist theories pls)

This is beyond belief. Even if we had the purest police force on earth no reporter worth sh1t would rely on Gardai sources when, at that stage, a Garda was a suspect in the death of a young man.

None of us knows who told the Indo reporter that Derek O'Toole was "known to the Gardai" and had "previous convictions", all we can – and should - do is ask why any one would have told the reporter this, when it was utterly untrue.

What was the motive for passing on this misinformation?

What was the motive for blackening Derek O'Toole's name?

Why would there be any need to blacken Derek O'Toole's name if he was the victim of an entirely innocent road accident?

Derek O'Toole wasn't "known to the Gardai", nor had he any "previous convictions" - therefore, whoever passed on this 'information' was lying. Fact.

I ask again: why did they lie?

If - I repeat: if - the information was given to the reporter by a Garda source do you not think the reporter should have double-checked it in light of the fact a Garda was a suspect in the victim's death at that stage (ie the file is to be passed to the DPP)? That’s what any reporter worth their salt would have done.

Spare me the bull about deadlines - you don't publish unless you can be sure your facts are right. They were utterly and completely wrong in this case. Fact.

As for all the crap posted here about Lucan.........presumably by people who have never lived there: you get a few rowdies spilling out of the pubs in the village at closing time, after that it's infinitely quieter than the supposedly posh south Dublin suburb I now find myself living in. So, no, there aren’t any marauding gangs looking to beat up passers-by – check your newspaper archives for such assaults in Lucan village, you’ll find next to none.

And no, the incident didn’t happen on the far side of the Liffey, where the roads are windy, it happened just across the road from the original Lucan post office – those who actually know Lucan will know the exact spot.

A few questions:

Why, as claimed, was Derek O'Toole lying in the middle of the road when his friends say he left their house in Lucan “walking in a straight line” and not paralytic drunk?

Why was Derek’s mother told it was a taxi driver who phoned for an ambulance, and not the off-duty Gardai in the car?

A Garda breathalysed the Garda who was driving the car that ran over Derek O'Toole. Is there any possibility of an independent analysis of the results of that test? No, I’m not making any allegations, I’m simply asking if it is possible, legally, for an independent person to be used in this case, just so Derek O'Toole’s family can be assured of a lack of prejudice.

Because it was 5 o’clock in the morning there seems to be an assumption that Derek O'Toole was drunk. Why is the same assumption not being made about the occupants of the car?

Why did the Gardai (ie their spokesman) say it was a “tragic accident” while admitting that their investigation was “not yet complete”?

I’ve crossed that road a million times, at the exact spot where Derek O'Toole died. It’s a dangerous spot because it’s close to the turn from the bridge over the Liffey. You’re always wary and fearful of cars speeding around that corner. I can easily understand how a pedestrian could be hit there. But the danger is only in crossing from that side of the road to the old post office side – which Derek O'Toole didn’t have to do. His friends lived on the old post office side of the road, so he would have been crossing that road from the safe side, ie where you have full view of cars turning from the bridge over the Liffey, to hail a taxi travelling in his direction.

I can say no more, my post will only be deleted, but the O'Toole family have the absolute right to an independent enquiry – if they don’t get it, well, we can all despair.

HelterSkelter

Fair play XYZ123ABC, very well said.

Jip

XYZ123ABC wrote:

And no, the incident didn’t happen on the far side of the Liffey, where the roads are windy, it happened just across the road from the original Lucan post office – those who actually know Lucan will know the exact spot.

As I clarified, what seemed like an age ago at this stage.

santosubito

XYZ123ABC wrote:

What exactly are you trying to say?

Do you define 'cotton wool' reporting as accurate reporting? And, so you believe accurate reporting to be "sh1t"? So the media should be entirely free to report falsehoods simply to keep the likes of you entertained?

"Not really their problem"? Are you honestly saying it's not a problem for the Indo that they printed nasty falsehoods about a young man who had just died?

Should that not be a shameful problem?

On the same day the Irish Times had a completely anodyne report on the incident, no lies about Derek O'Toole’s life – and you can be damn sure their reporter had access to the same sources as the Indo. But they chose not to publish falsehoods about him. Do you think they might have actually double-checked? Does that make the Irish Times a lesser ‘news’paper in your eyes?



Aren't you missing one teeny point in this theory of yours, ie the victim in this case had NO 'previous'. Absolutely none.

However salacious a section of the public (eg you) might like its media to be, I'd hazard a guess they, on the whole, would like the salaciousness to have even a tiny grain of truth - that's how and why salaciousness works, otherwise it's 100% fiction, and you might as well buy a cheap novel.



John Ward had 'previous'.

Derek O'Toole had none.

Why are you even mentioning the two men in the same argument?

Because the Indo told you Derek O'Toole was "known to the Gardai" and had "previous convictions" you accept that as being the truth, even though it's not?

Are those of us who are repulsed by the Indo’s falsehoods about Derek O'Toole indulging in ‘PC’ crap?

An innocent young man, who led a remarkable life (battled back from Leukaemia twice and went on to help others going through the same trauma), dies in tragic and mysterious circumstances, leaving his family shattered. Those offended by the Indo’s slur on this young man are ‘politically correct’ tossers? I’m not religious…..but God help you.



This is beyond belief. Even if we had the purest police force on earth no reporter worth sh1t would rely on Gardai sources when, at that stage, a Garda was a suspect in the death of a young man.

None of us knows who told the Indo reporter that Derek O'Toole was "known to the Gardai" and had "previous convictions", all we can – and should - do is ask why any one would have told the reporter this, when it was utterly untrue.

What was the motive for passing on this misinformation?

What was the motive for blackening Derek O'Toole's name?

Why would there be any need to blacken Derek O'Toole's name if he was the victim of an entirely innocent road accident?

Derek O'Toole wasn't "known to the Gardai", nor had he any "previous convictions" - therefore, whoever passed on this 'information' was lying. Fact.

I ask again: why did they lie?

If - I repeat: if - the information was given to the reporter by a Garda source do you not think the reporter should have double-checked it in light of the fact a Garda was a suspect in the victim's death at that stage (ie the file is to be passed to the DPP)? That’s what any reporter worth their salt would have done.

Spare me the bull about deadlines - you don't publish unless you can be sure your facts are right. They were utterly and completely wrong in this case. Fact.

As for all the crap posted here about Lucan.........presumably by people who have never lived there: you get a few rowdies spilling out of the pubs in the village at closing time, after that it's infinitely quieter than the supposedly posh south Dublin suburb I now find myself living in. So, no, there aren’t any marauding gangs looking to beat up passers-by – check your newspaper archives for such assaults in Lucan village, you’ll find next to none.

And no, the incident didn’t happen on the far side of the Liffey, where the roads are windy, it happened just across the road from the original Lucan post office – those who actually know Lucan will know the exact spot.

A few questions:

Why, as claimed, was Derek O'Toole lying in the middle of the road when his friends say he left their house in Lucan “walking in a straight line” and not paralytic drunk?

Why was Derek’s mother told it was a taxi driver who phoned for an ambulance, and not the off-duty Gardai in the car?

A Garda breathalysed the Garda who was driving the car that ran over Derek O'Toole. Is there any possibility of an independent analysis of the results of that test? No, I’m not making any allegations, I’m simply asking if it is possible, legally, for an independent person to be used in this case, just so Derek O'Toole’s family can be assured of a lack of prejudice.

Because it was 5 o’clock in the morning there seems to be an assumption that Derek O'Toole was drunk. Why is the same assumption not being made about the occupants of the car?

Why did the Gardai (ie their spokesman) say it was a “tragic accident” while admitting that their investigation was “not yet complete”?

I’ve crossed that road a million times, at the exact spot where Derek O'Toole died. It’s a dangerous spot because it’s close to the turn from the bridge over the Liffey. You’re always wary and fearful of cars speeding around that corner. I can easily understand how a pedestrian could be hit there. But the danger is only in crossing from that side of the road to the old post office side – which Derek O'Toole didn’t have to do. His friends lived on the old post office side of the road, so he would have been crossing that road from the safe side, ie where you have full view of cars turning from the bridge over the Liffey, to hail a taxi travelling in his direction.

I can say no more, my post will only be deleted, but the O'Toole family have the absolute right to an independent enquiry – if they don’t get it, well, we can all despair.

May I give an explanation of what I believe led to the Indo saying Derek O'Toole was a criminal when he wasn't?

I want to say, first of all, that I don't work for the Indo, but I am a reporter and I do have experience in this particular field.

The reporter got a sniff that the driver of the car was a Garda. He got that confirmed.

He then got the deceased's name, age and address confirmed from one source.

But, obviously, that source wouldn't check PULSE, the Garda computer for him, to see if Mr O'Toole had any convictions.

So he gets another source to check that: he finds that there is a Derek O'Toole, who, like the deceased, is 24, on the system.
He has minor convictions, public order, etc.

So he assumes it's the same guy.

Unfortunately, it wasn't. The 24-year-old Derek O'Toole who died and has no record is from Clondalkin. The 24-year-old Derek O'Toole who does have a criminal record has an address in another part of Dublin. Hence the **** up.
It wasn't a conspiracy, it wasn't a plot to blacken the deceased's name. It was a deadline induced mistake.

I certainly have been there, done that and bought the T-Shirt.

HelterSkelter

Thanks for the reply santosubito.

So according to the second source, the other Derek O'Toole with the minor convictions is from another part of Dublin. Did the reporter know at the time that the Derek O'Toole who was killed was from Clondalkin. If so, why didn't this ring any bells?

santosubito

Well, I anticipate the conversation went along the lines of: A: "Will you see if there is anything on a fella called Derek O'Toole?"
B. "What age is he?"
A: "24"
B: "Ah, yeah, here he is: 24-year-old, several convictions for XXX."
Not a common name: same age; time pressures, etc...

***of course he should have asked for confirmationon the address...***

santosubito

And, as is often the case, people are seeing a massive conspiracy here when the reality is more prosaic: it was a mistake.
There's another point I'd like to make in respect of XYZ's post.
The Irish Times did an anodyne piece because their crime reporter was off and an ordinary reporter was doing the story.
If the Times learned that an off duty Garda had been driving the car, they would obviously have reported that.
But they wouldn't have ****ed up on the known to Gardai line - that was, in my opinion, a one in a million booboo.

lostexpectation

santosubito wrote:

May I give an explanation of what I believe led to the Indo saying Derek O'Toole was a criminal when he wasn't?

I want to say, first of all, that I don't work for the Indo, but I am a reporter and I do have experience in this particular field.

The reporter got a sniff that the driver of the car was a Garda. He got that confirmed.

He then got the deceased's name, age and address confirmed from one source.

But, obviously, that source wouldn't check PULSE, the Garda computer for him, to see if Mr O'Toole had any convictions.

So he gets another source to check that: he finds that there is a Derek O'Toole, who, like the deceased, is 24, on the system.
He has minor convictions, public order, etc.

So he assumes it's the same guy.

Unfortunately, it wasn't. The 24-year-old Derek O'Toole who died and has no record is from Clondalkin. The 24-year-old Derek O'Toole who does have a criminal record has an address in another part of Dublin. Hence the **** up.
It wasn't a conspiracy, it wasn't a plot to blacken the deceased's name. It was a deadline induced mistake.

I certainly have been there, done that and bought the T-Shirt.

don't believe a word of it, way to convient for the gardai, just like the liam lawyer thing was a dead induced mistake, its all about motivation to make mistakes

santosubito

lostexpectation wrote:

don't believe a word of it, way to convient for the gardai, just like the liam lawyer thing was a dead induced mistake, its all about motivation to make mistakes

Well, that's fine. But answer this: do you really think the Gardai would blacken Mr O’Toole’s name by saying he was a criminal, when it was obvious his parents would come out and say it was wrong?
It would be a pretty stupid strategy, would it not?

lostexpectation

santosubito wrote:

Well, that's fine. But answer this: do you really think the Gardai would blacken Mr O’Toole’s name by saying he was a criminal, when it was obvious his parents would come out and say it was wrong?
It would be a pretty stupid strategy, would it not?

well the whole getting you statement out first is not a stupid stragety Im sure you would agree, the whole once its out there thing, and the 'journo' did get the info from the gardai obviously not a neutral source, doubly so in this case, the xeroxing of garda statements by some journos is pretty stupid also. why didn't the journo ask the parents then? if he didn't have time to double chekc leave it out, but then motivation comes back in, muddy the waters protect the gardai

santosubito

lostexpectation wrote:

well getting you statement out first is not a stupid stragety Im sure you would agree, the xeroxing of garda statements by some journos is pretty stupid also.

No, I wouldn't agree at all. Getting the truth out first is a goodn idea, peddling a lie is stupid and comes back to bite you on the arse.

Victor

blue4ever wrote:

“the real focus of this story should be why a off duty gardai was going so fast he didnt see the guy lying in the road” Now that’s funny – you’re on screaming the house down about inaccurate reporting – but can’t seen the stop yourself from falling into the same trap. Who said/has accused him (bar you) of speeding – how do you know. I have seen no reports of him speeding/arests made for the same – or did you ‘come to that conclusion’ – possibly like someone did the same on Saturday night in the Indo?

There is an obligation to be able to stop within the distance you can see.

XYZ123ABC wrote:

None of us knows who told the Indo reporter that Derek O'Toole was "known to the Gardai" and had "previous convictions", all we can – and should - do is ask why any one would have told the reporter this, when it was utterly untrue.

Its quite possible that he was "known to the Gardai" - but for the right reasons - his charitable work. Then euphamisms get out of hand.

Then again the first reports of the May Day (Reclaim the Streets) 'riot' in 2002 reported that a garda had his arm broken - no gardai were injured (other than those sensative to swear words and spitting).

In the first reports of the May Day (EU expansion) 'riot' in 2004 reported that a garda was hospitalised - she was realeased after 3 hours. "Hospitalised" indicates serious injury sufficient to be admitted in hospital.

Gardai and / or the Garda Press Office know how to spin stories to suit themselves.

XYZ123ABC

santosubito wrote:

I want to say, first of all, that I don't work for the Indo.

I’ll take your word for it santosubito, but I am intrigued by your history of defending the Indo whenever someone on these boards has complained about the paper.

Have they, in your eyes, ever got it wrong?

Why do you feel the need to repeatedly state "I don't work for the Indo" when no one has suggested you do? (see this thread and the one where you defended the paper with some passion, and repeatedly attacked its main rival, The Irish Times). I'm beginning to think you protest too much!

santosubito wrote:

I am a reporter and I do have experience in this particular field.

I do too, I worked for newspapers, television and radio in current affairs for 15 years before moving to pastures news. So I’m painfully familiar with the business of checking and double-checking sources, and not using information unless it could be 100% vouched for. It’s a quaint and old-fashioned journalistic tradition.

santosubito wrote:

May I give an explanation of what I believe led to the Indo saying Derek O'Toole was a criminal when he wasn't? The reporter got a sniff that the driver of the car was a Garda. He got that confirmed. He then got the deceased's name, age and address confirmed from one source. But, obviously, that source wouldn't check PULSE, the Garda computer for him, to see if Mr O'Toole had any convictions. So he gets another source to check that: he finds that there is a Derek O'Toole, who, like the deceased, is 24, on the system. He has minor convictions, public order, etc.

So he assumes it's the same guy.

You never, ever make assumptions in a matter as serious as this. Never. You might take a chance if you are writing an earth-shattering piece about the identity of Brian O’Driscoll’s new girlfriend, not on something this important. If you do, you should find a new job.

Your ‘explanation’ is actually nonsense. PULSE produces a ‘Derek O'Toole’ so the Garda and the reporter make assumptions. Yes, Derek O'Toole is a very unusual Irish name, it’s highly unlikely there would be more than two on PULSE. :rolleyes:

santosubito wrote:

It wasn't a conspiracy, it wasn't a plot to blacken the deceased's name. It was a deadline induced mistake.

Do you know this for a fact, or, like the Indo, are you just making assumptions?

santosubito wrote:

I certainly have been there, done that and bought the T-Shirt.

You blackened the name of a man who had just died by making false allegations against him?

Is that why you are being so supportive of the Indo, because you can relate to their brand of journalism?

santosubito wrote:

Well, I anticipate the conversation went along the lines of: A: "Will you see if there is anything on a fella called Derek O'Toole?"
Not a common name: same age; time pressures, etc...

Not a common name??!! In Ireland?! I alone know three Derek O’Toole’s!

santosubito wrote:

***of course he should have asked for confirmation on the address ***

Yes santosubito, that would have been nice.

santosubito wrote:

And, as is often the case, people are seeing a massive conspiracy here when the reality is more prosaic: it was a mistake.

I repeat: how do you know this? My third hand information is quite, quite different. But because it's third hand I wouldn't rely on it. Again, quaint.

santosubito wrote:

But answer this: do you really think the Gardai would blacken Mr O’Toole’s name by saying he was a criminal, when it was obvious his parents would come out and say it was wrong? It would be a pretty stupid strategy, would it not?

For someone who claims to have worked as a crime reporter your naivety is extraordinary.

Surely you know how these things work? You plant a seed. You leak inaccurate information that leads to all that ‘no smoke without fire’ jazz. Yes, it could be proved that Derek O'Toole had no previous convictions, it certainly couldn’t be proved that he wasn’t “known to the Gardai”. So his name is blackened: "What was that bowsie up to? Probably no good".

I ask you again: if this incident was an accident and no more, and if the driver of the car acted as he should have acted after the accident, why was there any need to leak information about the victim that blackened his name?

santosubito wrote:

Peddling a lie is stupid and comes back to bite you on the arse.

Indeed, as the Donegal Gardai discovered. But it still didn’t stop them.

What that case should have taught us all, including you, is to ask questions. And then ask some more. If the answers are satisfactory we accept them and move on. If there is any doubt we don't let up until the truth is out.

I would have thought you learnt that in journalism?