Your move

pok3rplaya

Vill is very aggressive semi-reg. He's kinda bad and loose and likes to stab at pots. 35/22/1.6


***** Hand History for Game 5734812530 *****
$600 NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, March 04, 17:48:29 ET 2007
Table Table 125474 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: sb_101 ( $1473.20 )
Seat 6: HectorSalazar ( $625.35 )
Seat 5: lolImAmerican ( $923.50 )
Seat 4: NightPatrol ( $248.65 )
Seat 3: AAarrrrIN ( $728 )
Seat 2: tiltno ( $600 )
lolImAmerican posts small blind [$3].
HectorSalazar posts big blind [$6].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to lolImAmerican [ Jd Jc ]
sb_101 folds
tiltno raises [$21]
AAarrrrIN calls [$21]
NightPatrol folds
lolImAmerican raises [$87]
HectorSalazar folds
tiltno calls [$69]
AAarrrrIN folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5s, Tc, 7d ]
lolImAmerican ???

ocallagh

140 and fold to a push.

Or if you are feeling gambly, check push.

phantom_lord

Well I'd check...

lazlo

140 and fold to a push.

Or if you are feeling gambly, check push.

Good advice.

Although, given your description of the opponent I would lean more towards a check-push.

ocallagh

phantom_lord wrote:

Well I'd check...

well there is a slight difference. In this instance we know our villain is very loose which changes things. Against a regular player I might even check fold this one to be honest. And if they check behind me on the flop I make a stab on the turn for 140 and then fold to a push. [edit: this would be against a good TAG player]

pok3rplaya

I didn't say very bad and loose, I've seen him do some weird stuff before and he splashes around a little bit.

pok3rplaya

As in if I check I can see hime bluffing but I won't stack him with any two all day.

ocallagh

pok3rplaya wrote:

As in if I check I can see hime bluffing but I won't stack him with any two all day.

You have over represented your hand. I would continue this line with 140 on the flop and hope to take it then and there. If he comes back at you I defo fold.

If he's not as bad as you say then maybe check push is not the right option, but against bad loose players it's probably better than betting 140.

lazlo

given the pot odds he is being offered preflop(which could have improved had the next player taken the new price he was being laid), plus the advantage of position as well as a reasonably good grasp of your range he could be very liable to play a broad range of holdings against you here. I'd check and hope that he gets 'creative' with his hand.

cardshark202

I would often just call preflop. Since you re-raised, your next move should largely depend on how you had been playing. If you had been squeezing a lot, then I think you should bet a lot of the time, if not then I think you should often check here.

robinlacey

these kinds of situations are why i rarely reraise with JJ or TT preflop
check push is pretty dodgy i think,i'd probably check call

fuzzbox

I prefer check/push to check/call
If we are ahead then he has a live draw of some description

If he bets then there is gonna be 300 or so in the middle, and the time for dancing is over.

Bet/fold has merits as does check/push.
I dont like check/call as discussed above.

Gholimoli

I lead for half the pot here (maybe slightly more) and be done with the hand should I encounter any resistance.
By this move you are representing JJ+ and it will be very hard for him to play back at you if he can’t beat that.

ianmc38

Bet fold for me. Not keen on check push at all.

robinlacey

i don't see the merits of the check push,it'll get value from exactly AT,and makes it easy for all the rest of his range to stack you,or fold

check calling allows him to bluff at you,if you're going to get your chips in by check pushing you may as well check call instead,check pushing makes it too easy for him to make the right move.

i think with QQ check pushing would be a bit better but JJ isnt in great shape here...
i would probably c/call the flop,and make a decision on the turn,sometimes calling and sometimes folding...

phantom_lord

yeah, I don't like check pushing at all, I think c/c is best and reevaluate turn.

Ste05

Yeah, I like a bet fold here too. IMO he's unlikely to bluff raise AI here, unless of course we've been splashing around alot lately, but as Cardshark says what I'd do would depend on how I was perceived and how I'd been playing lately.

I think you really have to bet here with nearly everything you could possibly be 3 betting from the SB with. You would bet usually with AA or KK (I presume) so I really think you need to do the same with everything else, to protect the value of those hands in the future on low raggy flops.

pok3rplaya

check/minraise and call a push anyone?

phantom_lord

pok3rplaya wrote:

check/minraise and call a push anyone?

that a joke?

pok3rplaya

No not at all, I think it's a very valid option in this spot.

phantom_lord

pok3rplaya wrote:

No not at all, I think it's a very valid option in this spot.

Yeah ok, looking at pot/stack sizes it makes sense.

RasTa

What? So if you check and he bets say $120 your going to min-raise? Then he pushes, What do you learn?

phantom_lord

the pots~190ish i think, so he's betting at least 160+, a min raise sticks him in an awkward spot and pretty much commits him to the hand. I think that's the idea behind it.

we're not trying to learn anything,

RasTa

So why not just push the flop instead of all this check/min-raise?

phantom_lord

RasTa wrote:

So why not just push the flop instead of all this check/min-raise?

cause ak/aq and other stuff are more likely to call, i think.

pok3rplaya

Well think about what he does with AA and AK.

If he has AK and we minraise then we leave him with only one way to win and that is to push and hope that we fold. He can't profitably call our raise and folding will feel very weak since we only minraised. Hence if he pushes we can put him on AK and we call.

Compared to when he has AA he will be more likely to just flat call our minraise because pushing makes it more likely that we might fold. So when he calls behind we can puthim on AA and shut down for the hand.

ocallagh

pok3rplaya wrote:

Well think about what he does with AA and AK.

If he has AK and we minraise then we leave him with only one way to win and that is to push and hope that we fold. He can't profitably call our raise and folding will feel very weak since we only minraised. Hence if he pushes we can put him on AK and we call.

Compared to when he has AA he will be more likely to just flat call our minraise because pushing makes it more likely that we might fold. So when he calls behind we can puthim on AA and shut down for the hand.

I'm not so sure. You could just as easily say:

AK will fold becase he puts you on QQ/KK/AA.
AA will push because he puts you on QQ/KK and the pot is big enough.

pok3rplaya

Well if AK folds then thats not so bad we don't mind that.

If he has AA he knows we are drawing to 2 or less out most of the time.

ocallagh

pok3rplaya wrote:

Well if AK folds then thats not so bad we don't mind that.

If he has AA he knows we are drawing to 2 or less out most of the time.

Your line in this hand (assuming you do check min-raise the flop) is incredibly strong. I would say very few opponents would push with something we are ahead of which makes calling a push very -EV.

If all the hands we are ahead of fold, but AA calls, then we have made a mistake and lose money, and check min raising that flop maximises our losses! It's much more expensive than a regular continuation bet.

There may be an argument for check min raising, but I'd have to be playing with the opponent a while to realise it might be the case. ie: You assume your opponent is highly clued into your game, and realises you have used every available opportunity throughout this hand to show strength, which he takes as a sign of weakness and he may well push with AK (whereas if he had AA he would call hoping not to lose you), thus making it an easy call with JJ. Is this what you mean?

pok3rplaya

Thus is the state of Party 600/1kNL IMO.

cardshark202

So if you check-minraise and he just calls, are you putting any more money into the pot?

Goodluck2me

i dont know why everyone is talking about AA/KK/QQ/AK here, there was a huge thread on this not so long ago about people 3 betting light he doesnt and we dont have to have a monster here.

discliamer im not saying this is a good/valid option more a theory:
If we open push here what calls us?
if we crai what calls us?
If we bet what calls us? what re-raises us?

NickyOD

I liked ocallagh's line in the first reply to the OP. Leading out for around €150, but I hate check pushing and open pushing is insane.

Goodluck2me

NickyOD wrote:

I liked ocallagh's line in the first reply to the OP. Leading out for around €150, but I hate check pushing and open pushing is insane.

obviously open pushing is insane - i just want to see what calls us,

pok3rplaya

cardshark202 wrote:

So if you check-minraise and he just calls, are you putting any more money into the pot?

no

pok3rplaya

goodluck2me wrote:

i dont know why everyone is talking about AA/KK/QQ/AK here, there was a huge thread on this not so long ago about people 3 betting light he doesnt and we dont have to have a monster here.

Huh? Neither of us have to have monsters here. It is still a possibility and therefore must be considered.

goodluck2me wrote:

discliamer im not saying this is a good/valid option more a theory:
If we open push here what calls us?
if we crai what calls us?
If we bet what calls us? what re-raises us?

1) Only stuff that beats us.
2) Only stuff that beats us + maybe one or two confused hands that we beat. This line is not about the hands that call us though.
3) Handsthat call beat us mostly. Hands that reraise are sometimes monsters and sometimes we get bluffed off the best hand by AK/AQ/89s (far too much for my liking).

Goodluck2me

pok3rplaya wrote:

Huh? Neither of us have to have monsters here. It is still a possibility and therefore must be considered.



1) Only stuff that beats us.
2) Only stuff that beats us + maybe one or two confused hands that we beat. This line is not about the hands that call us though.
3) Handsthat call beat us mostly. Hands that reraise are sometimes monsters and sometimes we get bluffed off the best hand by AK/AQ/89s (far too much for my liking).

Ok now for the same questions above, what folds?

AmarilloFats

From what Pok3rplaya said Id say he could have any PP AQ! AK maybe some 89s JTs types...I think he flat calls w/ QQ and I think its a likely holding here.

Would he play KK AA like this...?? Dunno.

If you lead at pot.
he will fold missed PP 22, 33, 44, 66
Sometimes call w/ 88 99
raise w/ QQ! KK AA
not sure what he'd do with set..Accrordin to my PT he has check minraised with big hands a few times.

If you check I think he'll check with most hands he would have folded to a bet, AND CHECK SOME THAT WOLD HAVE called with. Hence I think you lose value here. I mean you 3 bet preflop then checked into a single villain is very stong.

I don't think He takes stabs with hands that would fold to a check raise often enough for this to be profitable. OR call a check raise with hands you beat to make it profitable.


For these reasons I don't like a check raise, min or otherwise.
I vote for leading at this flop 2/3 pot.

pok3rplaya

Whats your SN?

pok3rplaya

Hand from a second ago:

***** Hand History for Game 5745304175 *****
$600 NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, March 07, 17:37:56 ET 2007
Table Table 125474 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: KajserSoze ( $591 )
Seat 4: mayolas ( $709.40 )
Seat 5: ttiger98 ( $499.50 )
Seat 6: cwchcl ( $1741.37 )
Seat 3: lolImAmerican ( $783.45 )
Seat 1: beerwijk ( $275.32 )
>You have options at Table 125870 (No DP) Table!.
mayolas posts small blind [$3].
beerwijk posts big blind [$6].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to lolImAmerican [ Td Tc ]
KajserSoze folds
lolImAmerican raises [$18]
>You have options at Table 125870 (No DP) Table!.
>You have options at Table 126328 Table!.
>You have options at Jackpot #1304620 (No DP) Table!.
mayolas raises [$57]
beerwijk folds
lolImAmerican calls [$42]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6s, 5d, 2h ]
mayolas bets [$66]
>You have options at Table 126328 Table!.
lolImAmerican raises [$200]
>You have options at Table 127244 Table!.
mayolas is all-In [$583.40]
lolImAmerican calls [$449.40]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3d ]
** Dealing River ** [ Qs ]
lolImAmerican shows [ Td, Tc ]a pair of Tens.
mayolas shows [ Qc, Ad ]a pair of Queens.
mayolas wins $1422.80 from the main pot with a pair of Queens.

RasTa

Shocking stuff.

valor

why did you raise the flop? to induce the push?

pok3rplaya

ya

valor

run better

for the original hand, i would check given the "likes to stab at pots" read, although if i felt he might bluff push I would bet
this is a very image/flow dependent spot