Ireland Cover

Diamondmaker

There is always a lot of talk on this. Assume Eng starting 15 is now our no 1 team. Whether you like it or not lets just assume it, as it is looking this way now. Its also hard to argue with 99% of it anyway so for the sake of discussion lets just lok at cover. The Hot Tpoic to be!

Dempsey Murphy
Horgan Trimble
BOD ???
Darcy ???
Hickie Trimble
ROG Wallace
Stringer Boss
Leamey Foley/Heaslip
Wallace Gleeson
Easterbunny Best
POC MOD/Hogan
DOC MOD/Hogan
Hayes Best
Best Flannery
Horan Best

We are ,ost F*cked if BOD or Darcy goes. This has led to on more than one occasion to Shaggy coming to centre. This not only robs us of his immense talents on the wing but puts him into position that he just is not suited to and just cant compete at the hioghest level in.
It obviously also leads to a less experienced winger coming in leaving us weak in 2 positions, instead of 1 if say, Trimble went direct to centre and kept Shaggy as is. Not ideal but is this better than the former, I believe so.

Arguably its better to have Wallace come in for ROG than to have to do the above for either centre. At this stage I guess EOS is just gonna gamble on fitness of his OH for next 6 months.

We then have plenty of good options right up to and including, arguably, the 2locks.
Hooker even goes as deep as Sheehan and Jackman and we can also call on the immense Leicester duo of Cullen and Jennings if required bith very experienced and of international caps also.
Front row cover lacks international experience and due to the Greene, Wright and Freddie for the provinces, there is a lack of at least HERC experienced cover in these positions also. We have Best here to cover both and who else?

So EOS has options everywhere to some decent degree apart from the 2 centres. As BODs absence has shown he is the most irreplaceable player I feel. We have seen what heppens when we disrupt the whole backine thro the loss of a centre twice recent years.

Given that EOS feels he needs to win all the games he seems to be gambling on ROGs fitness and well, he just has no real options in the centres.
I think the ROG and Wallace issueis secondary to what do we do if we lose a centre issue, Wallace can kick goals and perhaps open the backs with a more running game if we had to but we have seen no one in recent years even come close to replace BOD or Darcy. These are more critical to find cover in by Sept than giving Wallace time. Its 2 players and the odds of losing one are obviously double the odds of losing ROG.

All in all if you look at each position we have good/great cover in all but Centres, Prop and OH. Injury free so far finegers crossed. It also takes luck to win a WC!

daveirl

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RuggieBear

lewis and Quinlan for the centres

Diamondmaker

Trimble to centre is about as good as Horgan give or take . No offfence but hes got to do better than Shaggy does there.

The big difference is the stauts quo remains with the rest and Shaggy stays where the rest of the worlds wingers fear him.

Its a good squad, and when we look further than the squad there is talent there too, and experienced UK talents at that also.

Diamondmaker

RuggieBear wrote:

lewis and Quinlan for the centres

I now you are a fan of Lewis but he has even less exerience than Wallace for ROG.

RuggieBear

he's the best number 13 after BOD we have.

Diamondmaker

RuggieBear wrote:

he's the best number 13 after BOD we have.

..........Spose.....waits the BazMurf Munster backlash, but I think your roish!:D

Either way both are less experienced than PW ( who can play a nifty centre IMO ) therfore I feel this position is more a concern than ROG cover.

daveirl

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RuggieBear

daveirl wrote:

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Lewis was played out of position. He is a wing/outside centre not a 12.

Chucky the tree

If we lose ROG were done for, i'd put argentina ahead of us to make it out of the group.

daveirl

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Chucky the tree

NZ will still have a great chance without Carter, and would still be favourites.

Marshy

No but thats true, they're very much relying on DC. We're clearly not alone in depending on ROG at 10.

shmaido

what about kearney as cover for fullback and wing, at this stage i'd prefer to see him as cover for Girve rather than murphy, as class as he is, his hot and cold bouts have been proven to be a liability, harsh I know... and I know there's an argument for having someone with international exeriance as cover, but in murphy's case it doesn't seem to help him, the big attributes that u'd expect to see from experiance is correct decision making and consistancy, sadly murphy has shown niether.

davyjose

daveirl wrote:

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They've played without Carter numerous times and still been dominant.
Is Michalak not France's first Choice, and out injured (I could be wrong, about this. Either way I think Fly-half is easily the French's weak spot)

zAbbo

Michalak, was first choice, I can't see him regaining that, with the form that Skrela has shown, who adds a certain degree of dependability.

If ever there was an unpredictable player, Freddie is that man, extremely talented, only 24, already has one RWC under his belt, and is moving to Super14 next season but has the ability to self-destruct on the field.

Back on topic, as to who are our covering players, I've been impressed with Best at hooker, and he is starting on merit, while we may not have the playing population, what we do have now are players capable of making impact from the bench. The likes of Neil Best, Jerry Flannery, Trimble and MOD. As mentioned other players that should come through like Heaslip, Ferris and speedster Fitzgerald.

The fact that there are no teams who can afford to lose key players in key positions.

Erin Go Brath

Cover wise, we really are in decent shape. However ROG, BOD, Darcy and the Bull Hayes, are the most important playes, at least when you factor in replaceablility (dunno if thats a word), or lack of a decent replacement. Personally I feel a lot more confident of our chances when we have both centres fit and well. These two are always immense for Ireland, and we're not the same team without them imo. We have seen a lot of good cover emerge for all other positions though, so the future looks rosy as long as those guys stay fit!

daveirl

daveirl wrote:

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Luke Mcallister is more than capable of taking Carters place. Not nearly as good but by international rugby standards he's a bloody solid 2nd choice.

daveirl

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Funkstard

So is Mick O'Driscoll ahead of Malcolm O'Kelly in the 2nd row backup? How old is he?

daveirl

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Chucky the tree

shmaido wrote:

what about kearney as cover for fullback and wing, at this stage i'd prefer to see him as cover for Girve rather than murphy, as class as he is, his hot and cold bouts have been proven to be a liability, harsh I know... and I know there's an argument for having someone with international exeriance as cover, but in murphy's case it doesn't seem to help him, the big attributes that u'd expect to see from experiance is correct decision making and consistancy, sadly murphy has shown niether.

Kearney has never played international rugby, and hasnt played alot in the HEC cup, no chance he will make it, and he doesnt deserve too either.

I think ROG is the most important player too keep fit. I'd rather have him then BOD.

GreenHell

The most important player in this team is the Bull. We have no tested international cover for him if he gets injured.

2nd row, backrow we have excellent cover.

Half backs - We needed and have needed since the last world cup, a rival to ROG. Wallace is coming to the party a bit late in his career. Don't wish the guy foul but I don't think he will stand up under the pressure.

Midfield - Trimble is decent cover, Horgan OK, Wallace again can play 12. Would like to see guys like Lewis and Murphy edge closer to the international team but probably don't have the time to bridge the gap before the world cup.

Wings - We have talented backs, trouble is they are untested at international level.

Fullback - Dempsey/Murhpy - outside of this we are again struggling but we do have talented youngsters coming through, again we don't have enough time to give these guys international game time.

This might sound like the typical EOS bashing, and I'm not a fan of his but it is worrying that we have don't minimal preparation for a second tier of international players, you only need to look at the all backs and what france are doing now in preparation for the world cup. Because of this deficit I think we will struggle to make an impact outside of our group in the world cup. I'd very much like to be proven wrong, we have a brilliant bunch of players.

tHE vAGGABOND

lads - lets be honest with ourselves. We have 5 or 6 players we just cant be without. If we lost either munster props, PoC, RoG, either center we are much less of a team than what we are now..

Loose some of our top class backup players and we become paper thin [at pretty much every position if we are honest]..

People forget, that many of our rival nations have more people playing rugby than we have have people living in Ireland. We are doing very well indeed to have as much cover as we have..

But with our best team I really do think we have a great chance of winning the whole lot in France in September. If we can keep the standard of last week's play up no team in black shirts will stay with us

Chucky the tree

NZ would of racked up about 60 points against last weeks english side.

GreenHell

tHE vAGGABOND wrote:

lads - lets be honest with ourselves. We have 5 or 6 players we just cant be without. If we lost either munster props, PoC, RoG, either center we are much less of a team than what we are now..

Loose some of our top class backup players and we become paper thin [at pretty much every position if we are honest]..

People forget, that many of our rival nations have more people playing rugby than we have have people living in Ireland. We are doing very well indeed to have as much cover as we have..

But with our best team I really do think we have a great chance of winning the whole lot in France in September. If we can keep the standard of last week's play up no team in black shirts will stay with us

Agreed, but I do think our reluntance to blood new players has left us in a situation which could be very very messy if we had lost even 3 players from our starting 15.

Conor_8

Chucky the tree wrote:

NZ would of racked up about 60 points against last weeks english side.

Far as I remember they scored a bit less than 60 against a weaker English side last Autumn...

Conor_8

This is an important topic with the world cup in mind.

At centre we have talented, but inexperienced options in Trimble, Murphy and Lewis. Eddie should have dealt with this lack of experience by now.

ROG would be a huge loss. Wallace lacks the tactical ability and experience of ROG. Remember we now have one of the best 10s in the world right now.

Stringer has gotten a lot of flack over the years, but his absence in the French game was obvious. A great backline is nothing without quick ball. The fact that Shaggy had no time on the ball was down to Boss.

BUT Props are where the biggest problem lies. John Hayes and Marcus Horan should be wrapped up in cotton wool until September!

Diamondmaker

tHE vAGGABOND wrote:

lads - lets be honest with ourselves. We have 5 or 6 players we just cant be without. If we lost either munster props, PoC, RoG, either center we are much less of a team than what we are now..

If we are to purely work on the positions that we have some relative cover in PW cant be considered too bad, at the very least, he could cover for ROG with perhaps more passing than tactical kicking This may not be a bad thing if the back line was otherwise intact and could negate any pre planning tactically from an opposing team.
Also his debut showed he can kick ( a debut to a full LSD.RD can be considered to be quite a pressure occasion to an individual which he handled well ), even ROG would have struggled to get 10/11 given some of the kicks he converted.

POC we have MOD, internationally not too experienced as above but we know what hes made of and could stop a gap, obviously losing POC is more than just losing a great lock its all the rest also though.

Props no real cover full stop. The best is only tested from a lot of ML and HCup losing from Best, a REAL trrouble position.

Centres no tested cover at all, messing about with Horgo must never be done again. ANy time we have played without either things have been a mess. EOS must not persist with trying SH there.
Trimble may be able to do a job but god I would rather PW in for ROG than Trimble for either centre.

Everyother position is better to great, but I think we have a better cover for ROG and POC than Centres and the Props easily.

We wont produce one centre let alone 2 like the boys in the next 10 years, 20, 30...... ????
Has anyone ever seen 2 so good at the same time in both the same club + country???

shmaido

Chucky the tree wrote:

Kearney has never played international rugby, and hasnt played alot in the HEC cup, no chance he will make it, and he doesnt deserve too either.

I think ROG is the most important player too keep fit. I'd rather have him then BOD.

how is he supposed to get the experiance if isn't given the chance, he's certainly got the talent, its not like i'm expectiing him to take over the fulback position but just merely as cover and gradually get the experiance over time, i'm not sure what you mean about not deserving it though, look at mick o'driscoll, how much game time has he had, HEC level or international level (or even magners level), does he desreve it?

zAbbo

Diamondmaker wrote:

We wont produce one centre let alone 2 like the boys in the next 10 years, 20, 30...... ????
Has anyone ever seen 2 so good at the same time in both the same club + country???

I'd be surprised if we don't create one, someone like Fitzgerald has the attributes to play FB/Wing/Centre

Diamondmaker

zabbo wrote:

I'd be surprised if we don't create one, someone like Fitzgerald has the attributes to play FB/Wing/Centre

I hope he does too....I notice himself and quite a few other Leinster boys are in the elite academy as earmarked for extra "grooming" towards the Full team.

Leinster: Luke Fitzgerald, Jamie Heaslip, Trevor Hogan, Robert Kearney, Kieran Lewis, Ronnie McCormack
Connacht: Daniel Riordan
Munster: Barry Murphy
Ulster: Tommy Bowe, Stephen Ferris, Roger Wilson, Bryan Young

Good to see 2 props 4 or 5 potential centres but no OHs!!

Chucky the tree

shmaido wrote:

how is he supposed to get the experiance if isn't given the chance, he's certainly got the talent, its not like i'm expectiing him to take over the fulback position but just merely as cover and gradually get the experiance over time, i'm not sure what you mean about not deserving it though, look at mick o'driscoll, how much game time has he had, HEC level or international level (or even magners level), does he desreve it?

Let him play some magners/HEC rugby, then throw him give him international games. I cant think of many second rows that would challenge for a subs spot. Maybe Mal again, but i'd prefer to give Leo cullen a chance if before Mal.


has Kearney not lost his place at FB to fitzgerald?

maxi-twist

Chucky the tree wrote:

has Kearney not lost his place at FB to fitzgerald?

There swapped back and forth at leinster.

Doubt we'll be seeing fitzgerald at centre he played there for a while during the sct last year without accomplishing much but as soon as he changed to fullback he looked very threatening.I believe he's much more at home at full back.

Id still pick kearney ahead of his due his his kicking, and slight bit more experience.

Sangre

Kearney has been on great form of late. Although LB has been injured.

redmca

We all are agreed on the areas lacking cover, OH, Props, Centres.

What EOS has to do after the Scottish game (where defeat is unthinkable) is to forget the 6-nations and blood some of the possible alternatives in the Italy game, in particular Paddy Wallace, Trimble in the centre alternating with BOD and GD on the bench. Maybe rest at least 1 of the front line props.
In fact, if the game in Murrayfield goes well, some of these changes should start well before the 60th minute

I think Mick O'Driscoll isn't World Cup material. Leo Cullen deserves a chance, and a fit Mal O'Kelly must make the WC squad either way.

Even more so on the half-mad trip to Argentina, EOS must protect our irreplaceable assets from the ultra-physical Pumas.

Who would pick the back row for the WC squad, what a fantastic wealth of talent. Pick 6 (probably) from:
Wallace, Leamy, Easterby, Best, Gleeson, Quinlan, Heaslip, Ferris, Jennings, probably missed 1 or 2 ..........