What are we capable of?

6th

Ok so after reading an article just now it made me think about a few things:

This month Princeton University will close its ESP lab, after nearly 30 years of research into the paranormal. Set up in 1979 to investigate whether human consciousness could “interfere with sensitive computers and machinery”, the lab has cost a fairly reasonable $10 million, but concluded — after almost three decades — that its studies revealed only a small, yet statistically significant, effect in experiments. Richard Wise-man, a professor of psychology at the University of Hertfordshire, summed up by saying that the lab’s work was interesting, “but ultimately difficult to make practical use of”.

Personally, I find this to be quietly revelatory news. We’ve always been given to understand that the paranormal, should it exist, is a vast, billowing mass of indefinable power, what men ought not meddle in lest they unstitch the very fabric of the Universe. But from the Princeton findings, it seems that the paranormal lacks the capacity to become the new global superpower — usurping the US — if only a few more teenagers got stoned and mucked about with a Ouija board. Instead, it seems that the powers of the paranormal are quite comfortingly mundane. ESP cannot stop a man’s heart or short-circuit a tank. It seems that all that the paranormal is actually capable of doing is to allow people to guess whether a staff member at Princeton is about to show them a picture of a circle, or a couple of wavy lines. That isn’t the tip of an iceberg of paranormal potential which, if trained, could topple governments. It is , we now know, the iceberg. Full Article HERE

So, with more shows and films adding the Hollywood magic to the idea of 'gifts' or special abilities what do people expect when they consider the potential of the human mind?

I've read on a discussion forum (American) where someone will come on and say that they started a fire by concentrating on a match. They said it hurt them to do it and exhausted them - seriously other posters there congratulated them and openly admitted their envy of such Powahs.

Are we a more realistic bunch here? Am I hypocritical to think that such claims are bogus at best?

What are we capable as human beings?

monkeyfudge

New Scientist Magazine gave a brief mention to it's closure this week as well.

Apparently the lab was always something of an embarrassment to Princeton.

Stoner

6th wrote:

Are we a more realistic bunch here? Am I hypocritical to think that such claims are bogus at best?

No and Yes:D maybe this should be in the Heroes Forum!!!!

I think someone being able to start a fire by concentrating on a match is just as possible or impossible as a lot of the stuff discussed here (for example remote viewing), however even though no proof is required for anything discussed here, I guess it would be easier to check this power/gift out so they can be dismissed very quickly, where as it would be a lot more difficult to dismiss you 6th, now that everybody knows who you are.

6th

Its hard to pick out the bits where you are being nice there Stoner

Anyway, I can only believe the things that I have experienced and because I am very questioning I tend to dismiss alot of claims as bogus.

You make the point that its hard to dismiss someone when you know them and its a good point. Having met a fair few people off here I know I wouldnt doubt a fair few people on their claims.

I'm getting more and more interested in the likes of Psychokinesis and what we could be capable of.

6th

Uri Geller claims to bend spoons by PK.

I'm sure Stevenmu will jump in here at some stage as I know its an area he has some interest in.

So can people move things with the power of their minds?

Psi wheel
From Wikipedia

A Psi wheel is pyramid-shaped top-like device consisting of a small piece of paper or foil balanced on the tip of a pointed object commonly used for demonstrating telekinesis. Skeptics advance various counter-explanations; most common are explanations involving air currents caused by the convection of heated air which move the psi wheel.

Construction
There are several designs for the shape of the psi wheel, but the most common is an inverted funnel-shaped pyramid. This psi wheel shape may be constructed by creasing a small (around 2 inch by 2 inch) square of paper or foil lengthwise, heightwise, and diagonally both ways, then bending the square slightly along the creases to reach the desired shape.

Another common type of psi wheel is in the shape of a cross made out of a thin sheet of metal such as aluminum or brass. The arms of the cross are anywhere from 1.25 to 2 inches in length, with a small dimple in the middle so that it can be balanced on something sharp.

This wheel then balances on a small, pointed object such as a thumbtack, needle, or pen cover firmly planted on a flat surface. An object such as a thumbtack or pen cover can stand on its base by itself, however an object such as a needle will need to be rooted in another stable object such as an eraser, sponge, or bottlecap in order to provide it with enough stability to hold the spinning wheel on its tip. Sometimes such psi wheels are placed within small glass or plastic containers to prevent random bursts of air from causing spurious movement of the wheel.

Telekinetic explanations
Some telekinetics claim to be able to successfully manipulate these wheels to perform basic maneuvers on command, such as rotating the wheel around its axis. Some claim to have the ability to then stop the wheel, and spin it in the other direction. Some also claim they can eventually remove their hands from the wheel whilst still causing it to move.

Skeptical explanations
The human body maintains its core body temperature by releasing excess heat through the skin into the surrounding air. Thus when warm hands are placed on either side of the psi-wheel, the air around the wheel becomes warmer than the surrounding air. This hot air rises above the surrounding colder air by convection, causing a small updraft that pushes on the psi-wheel. The positioning of the hands can manipulate the direction of the draft to cause the wheel to rotate. Any heat source, human or non-human, can reproduce this effect with the appropriate positioning.

However, numerous experiments have been done where air currents have been removed from the system. Hand positions do not need to be in the immediate vicinity either.

kshiel

A lot of what is discussed here is spirits/ghosts and various other paranormal experiences. I could be wrong but not a lot of people here have claimed or witnessed someone with powers that can light a match or move an object with their own minds. thats not to say they have not. As stoner said we do not require proof here of our claims and a lot of the time the only proof we can offer is our word, some details of the occurance and maybe even some facts but actual proof no (i say this in a broad sense)

With someone who claims to be able to move things with their mind or through some other paranormal gift should be able to prove they can move it at least. If someone claims to be able to light a fire with only his hand, he should be able to demonstrate it. Moving an object or starting a fire etc are acts that are seen by the eye, weather or not there is some natural explaination will be more than likely debated through experienments as the one in above post.

For me I think I would have to see someone doing it to believe it fully but I like to think I have an open mind and that the possability is there.

6th

Ok I know we normal talk about ghosties & ghoulies here but (and I know Stevenmu will be happy with this) there is alot more to the Paranormal.

If we (those who believe in Spirits etc) believe its all about energy then surely we can use that energy? After all Poltergeist activity falls into Ghosties&Ghoulies but it most cases I suspect it belongs in the PK bucket.

I had success once with causing a EMF meter to spike in my hand during a meditation so why not use the same energy to move a pen?

kshiel

Yes there is more to the paranormal than ghost etc, I dont think anyone is objecting to that, but the point is that someone who can use energy to move an object can in some form prove they can, as its an act visable by the eye. Science etc will more than likely debate how they are doing it but is that to say its not possible, No.

6th

Ok but what about psychics & mediums? They claim to get information by whatever means. Many refuse to be tested but claim 90% success rates. Well if someone claims they can move objects surely they are not saying they can do it whenever they feel like it.

So mediums can be tested and so can people who claim PK - yet we as believers in the paranormal dismiss PK and not remote viewing?

6th

Basically what is the difference between me coming on here and saying I received information froma spirit and me claiming I made my pencil levitate?

I believe the former would be accepted but the latter would be questioned.

Son Goku

6th wrote:

I had success once with causing a EMF meter to spike in my hand during a meditation so why not use the same energy to move a pen?

Funnily enough you couldn't. The EMF taken to move an EMF meter is about 16,000 times lower than what it takes to suspend an object like a pencil.
(It's about 15 tesla for a pencil and 0.001-0.0005 tesla for the EMF meter.)

So if you had the ability to move the EMF, you'd still be miles off suspending the pencil. I'm not sure if this it what you want, but it'd give you an idea of how difficult it is to suspend something.

So it isn't necessarily hypocritical to think you can move an EMF while being sceptical of levitation claims.

6th

I'm nt talking specifics here but surely it would depend on how much the EMF moved as well as the range it covers.

Anyway examples aside do you think people are reaching their potential with regards to potential 'abilities'?

Son Goku

6th wrote:

I'm nt talking specifics here but surely it would depend on how much the EMF moved as well as the range it covers.

EMFs rarely, in my experience, cover over 0.005 Tesla. If you managed to move an EMF that measured up to 0.005 Tesla then you'd have exerted about (back of the envolope calculation) 4 Joules of energy. That's about the maximum.

Anyway back to the main point:

6th wrote:

Anyway examples aside do you think people are reaching their potential with regards to potential 'abilities'?

Hard to say. The brain is so complicated I don't have clue what it can do.

kshiel

While mediums etc can be tested as can people with PK, I still think that a the person claiming PK has a better chance of proving their ability by actually moving the object than a medium saying "here look your dead uncle is standing next to me now", while the medium can or could give details of the person or exact information on the deceased uncle the person they are claiming this information to may not be able to see the actual spirit standing beside them. Take for example trips we've been on, we have both saw and felt very similar things yet other people in the room could see or feel nothing, we can do our best to explain what it looks like and feels like but I dont think it can compare with actually seeing or feeling it. Why meduims refuse to be tested I can only assume their reasons are there own and would vary from perosn to person.

I do believe that a person coming on here claiming to have the ability to move objects etc would be given a fair go, and listened to and asked about a million questions. Maybe its just me but I dont expect people on here to believe what I am telling them or what I have experienced but I can only say that most of the people here who have not experienced paranormal for themsleves seem to have a very good open mind and are willing to hear out what we are claiming.

Stoner

This is all very interesting, and I'm always nice 6th .
I just think that some of the stuff we discuss here is equally "out there" to the casual poster who has dropped in for a read, but some claims are easier to check than others, also lighting a match by looking at it would be handy, but not as interesting as "speaking " to someone who has been dead for 200 years, it's also very easy the check, all you need is a match and the person who said they can do it.

I never considered using an EMF reading as a tool to measure "Work" being carried out, to me its just been a tool for removing electrical devices as a source of EMF so we can say "dont worry about that reading here its the the Storage heading clicking in at 23:00" or something similar

Anyway most of the meters paranormal guys use only measure the field in the one direction and are useless for for actual direct readings unless you took the time to take the reading accross the X,Y and Z axis and did a little calc, but then they would all taken at different times so the compenent forces could be change and we could not work out what "work" could be done as we may not have consistant force over the measurement time.
Therefore we buy the things and use them to indicate on a simple yes or no basis i.e is there a defelction or not.

However, Son GoKu and 6th what if 6th was causing the physical difflection with his mind by moving the needle on the meter with the power of that great mind of his, and not just creating an EMF that was registered on the meter, I guess there are many ways to look at these things.
For some reason I've always thought that moving things with the mind is something that could be possible some day, daft and all as that sounds, and I've tried it more than once, I've even tried to move a marker off my desk just now , but it never works for me.:(