Collusion or no??

morningstars

On the bubble of an Irish Open GF Feeder, 6 players left, cash for 5th and 4 seats for the GF

Blinds are 1,200, 2,400

I have over 10,000, the smallest stack has 5,000, the other 4 have 20,000 plus

I've decided to try and blind out the small stack for the cash.

Every things going fine, till the small stack on BB gets 1 call and the rest fold.

The small stack checks after the flop to the big stack.....who then promptly folds....giving the small stack a pot of 6,000

I was kinda shocked for a minute, then I typed "Manager" into the chat box to see what would happen, and sure enough, the big stack started "What? What do you mean?"

PP doesnt think it was collusion......

My question is, any you experienced players spot this as cheating.

Should I pack my bags and move on if PP dont come up with something?


Comments

M

RasTa

Yeah it sure sounds like collusion

Mr. Flibble

Smells like soft play alright. Nothing PPP can do as its impossible to prove. I would be pissed if my ac or winnings were frozen because I misclicked.

a147pro

very very annoying. possibly not collusion. sometimes as a joke you might fold a hand to a shortstack but you'd want to be a monster (which clearly he isn't). there is the fact that a shortstack like that would prob only complete those blinds, or check the flop with a monster.

was it for a ticket to the actual event or for another satellite?

Jesus Wept

morningstars wrote:

On the bubble of an Irish Open GF Feeder, 6 players left, cash for 5th and 4 seats for the GF

Blinds are 1,200, 2,400

I have over 10,000, the smallest stack has 5,000, the other 4 have 20,000 plus

I've decided to try and blind out the small stack for the cash.

Every things going fine, till the small stack on BB gets 1 call and the rest fold.

The small stack checks after the flop to the big stack.....who then promptly folds....giving the small stack a pot of 6,000

I was kinda shocked for a minute, then I typed "Manager" into the chat box to see what would happen, and sure enough, the big stack started "What? What do you mean?"

PP doesnt think it was collusion......

My question is, any you experienced players spot this as cheating.

Should I pack my bags and move on if PP dont come up with something?


Comments

M

I can't see this been collusion, because if it is, its horribly pointless bad.

If they were colluding, the short stack would just bet and the other player would fold, folding to a check would be the worst collusion ever, I guess the player who folded to the check just had zero hand/draw, and low cards, and wasn't bothered going through the hand,

pretty bad form, silly thing to do in a sat, annoying, but very unlikely to be collusion in my opinion.

morningstars

Thanks for the replies.

I assumed as I have been a good customer of PP that they might say "Heres a seat in the GF" or some such. ( its not as if it costs them any money )

I cant prove it is collusion, they cant prove its not.


But surely the priority for them is to keep me as a customer?

I used to think they were the best out there, but it seems that like BT and their ilk, when you make too much money, and have too many customers, you start to not give a crap if you loose a few..... pity that.

M

bohsman

They can see both players hole cards so will know that its not collusion, also as mentioned above its far too obvious. Sure if its not costing them anything they should just give all of us a seat.

califano

wrote:

The small stack checks after the flop to the big stack.....who then promptly folds

'Folding in turn without a bet into them'.
I had this conversation with ppp-pitboss at the IPC. I have to say i dont like the option to be able to do it but if the software allows it then the company has to condone it otherwise they would just change that detail in the software(my words). On other poker networks a player cannot fold in turn without a bet into them(i.e the software will not allow it).

Recently the very same thing hapenned in my favour 3 handed in a stt when i was the short stack. The chip leader obviously did it because he didnt like the amount of suckouts the second chip leader doled out throughout the game.

Mr. Flibble

On the river at least I think you should always have the option of folding. If you think there is very little chance of winning the pot you shouldn't be forced to give up info about your hand.

For instance, if I played a 3h4h passively on a 2h5hXxXx board and had 4 high on the river I will want to muck.

PPP-Pit Boss

We try in most cases to emulate live poker. You can fold if you are checked to in live poker so why not online?

A ticket into the GF costs us exactly what the buyin to the tournament costs.. in case there is any doubt about it.

As for the case in question, we reviewed it there does not appear to be any collusion in evidence. As you know we are far from shy about dealing with it when and if we find it.
There are a dozen reasons why the player might have decided to fold unless we can find evidence to suggest it was suspect then we are not about to ban the player.
If we did however he would be banned quicker than a naked man in a ladies toilet believe me.

Big stack limped UTG with two suited cards (CLUBS) There were three other players still to act before the BB (who was the short stack). All three players including the SB folded leaving the two in question.

The flop came down three diamonds big stack has none of it and two cards of the wrong suit. BB thinks about it then checks, UTG mucks.

morningstars

PPP-Pit Boss wrote:

We try in most cases to emulate live poker. You can fold if you are checked to in live poker so why not online?

A ticket into the GF costs us exactly what the buyin to the tournament costs.. in case there is any doubt about it.

As for the case in question, we reviewed it there does not appear to be any collusion in evidence. As you know we are far from shy about dealing with it when and if we find it.
There are a dozen reasons why the player might have decided to fold unless we can find evidence to suggest it was suspect then we are not about to ban the player.
If we did however he would be banned quicker than a naked man in a ladies toilet believe me.

Big stack limped UTG with two suited cards (CLUBS) There were three other players still to act before the BB (who was the short stack). All three players including the SB folded leaving the two in question.

The flop came down three diamonds big stack has none of it and two cards of the wrong suit. BB thinks about it then checks, UTG mucks.

Is boards.ie an extension of Paddy Power?

I have more information now about the incident ( specifically the cards involved ) through the last post than I got through my email correspondence with Paddy Power.

Is it better to come here for Paddy Power customer support than through official channels??

This post smacks of Paddy Power worrying more about reputation than its customer.....

Dodgy......

M

PPP-Pit Boss

I quite often address concerns regarding PPP here.
Not really sure what else to say. My reply was not meant to offend you just, that I spotted your post and thought I should look into it myself.

morningstars

Thanks for that, I appreciate the time.....but

You did address the board in general....

And you did supply more information than I received in my official correspondence....

I'm probably wearing blinkers because of the incident, but it is'nt the way I'd do business myself...

When I posted here I wasnt looking for an interjection from a PP Pit Boss.

Is it that you dont have confidence in your colleagues to handle it?

Surely you must be aware that I was in official touch on the matter?

Surely your only reason for posting here was reputation firefighting???


Although I think that, of course, I cant prove that...


Later

M

MickL

i can see thread of d year comming up :)

Camone

Doubt it i s collusion, if they were trying to ship chips, the shortstack wudve put in a bet and his mate wouldve foled so as not to arrise suspicion

hotspur

rounders123 wrote:

On other poker networks a player cannot fold in turn without a bet into them(i.e the software will not allow it).

That's not true I open fold on the flop in digust all over the online poker world.

ITT-Pat

PPP-Pit Boss wrote:

We try in most cases to emulate live poker. You can fold if you are checked to in live poker so why not online?

In live poker, if a player mucks after being checked to and therefore surrendering the pot to an opponent, does the opponent not have to show his hand in order to claim the pot??

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Mr. Flibble

ITT-Pat wrote:

In live poker, if a player mucks after being checked to and therefore surrendering the pot to an opponent, does the opponent not have to show his hand in order to claim the pot??

It depends where you are. There have been many many discussions about this happening on the river on this forum. Some people/rules state yes and other no. Never, as far as I remember, has it come up about it happening before the river. I presume a discussion about it would be similarly inconclusive. FWIW, I think that players should not have to show their cards unless they want to fend off another set of cards fighting for the pot.

green123

it is wrong for ppp pit boss to come on here and give details on the hand

i was in a similiar situation and the manager would not give me any info

double standards

if its ok to say it here, then you managers should give the player in question the info

ionapaul

I would have thought posters would be happy that this forum was read by employees of PPP and that players concerns were directly addressed here!

green123

ionapaul wrote:

I would have thought posters would be happy that this forum was read by employees of PPP and that players concerns were directly addressed here!

its just annoying that when you ping a manager for details / follow up they tell you they cant discuss it and yet it can be discussed here ????

hotspur

Generally speaking if you ping a chat support person at a poker site they couldn't even tell you which direction the sky is. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the "can't discuss it" replys given translate as "I haven't a clue what I'm doing and am confused by card games and the interweb". Pitboss can give answers because she knows what she's doing.

mewso

Paddy Power post here often to clarify things and if it helps their reputation so be it. It's a mutual benefit thing. If we want to question motives we could question the idea of angling for a free ticket to a tournament in a discussion forum PP are know to read.

morningstars

musician wrote:

.....if we want to question motives we could question the idea of angling for a free ticket to a tournament in a discussion forum PP are know to read.

Who do you think you are? Are you blind? Can you not read English?

I made it perfectly clear in my posts that I wasnt looking for PP interjection here, this is my 27th post on boards.ie, how am I supposed to know who does or doesnt post here?????

Is there a sharing of information between boards.ie and PP.com???? I never gave my details.

I was venting here...... you are good at that too, judging by your previous posts on here....

What gives you the right to come on here and question my ethics??

Angling for a free ticket?? I drink wine that costs more than one of those tickets....

PP have lost a customer.

And the next time you want to question my motives, please PM me and we can talk about it in private, instead of hiding behind an online persona...

Angling for a free ticket...... **** you....

I expected a token gesture, they declined, I move on...

******

M

5starpool

It'll be at least a week before you make your 28th post either. We like civilised discussion on boards, not angry abusive rants. It's up to you to let us know when your week is up too as we are a forgetful type of people here.

TY.

mewso

Who do you think you are? Are you blind? Can you not read English?

I made it perfectly clear in my posts that I wasnt looking for PP interjection here, this is my 27th post on boards.ie, how am I supposed to know who does or doesnt post here?????

Fair enough I was wrong but I wasn't accusing you of murder or anything.

Is there a sharing of information between boards.ie and PP.com???? I never gave my details.

There is no sharing of information. They simply post here to answer queries as they did here.

I was venting here...... you are good at that too, judging by your previous posts on here....

Not sure what posts you mean.

What gives you the right to come on here and question my ethics??

I'm not questioning your ethics. As a moderator of this forum I have to be suspicious alot of the time. Theres nothing personal here. If I'm wrong then fine.

And the next time you want to question my motives, please PM me and we can talk about it in private, instead of hiding behind an online persona...

Angling for a free ticket...... **** you....

Wow is all I can say. I was suspicious and I was wrong. Have I really tarnished your reputation or something? In future perhaps you might tell me I'm wrong and not explode with abuse.

Lazare

morningstars wrote:

Who do you think you are? Are you blind? Can you not read English?

I made it perfectly clear in my posts that I wasnt looking for PP interjection here, this is my 27th post on boards.ie, how am I supposed to know who does or doesnt post here?????

Is there a sharing of information between boards.ie and PP.com???? I never gave my details.

I was venting here...... you are good at that too, judging by your previous posts on here....

What gives you the right to come on here and question my ethics??

Angling for a free ticket?? I drink wine that costs more than one of those tickets....

PP have lost a customer.

And the next time you want to question my motives, please PM me and we can talk about it in private, instead of hiding behind an online persona...

Angling for a free ticket...... **** you....

I expected a token gesture, they declined, I move on...

******

M

Man, you have issues.

Give Bops a PM, I believe he's a very good psychologist.

Fatboydim

Next to PPP – Pit Boss I am probably the most qualified to add to this discussion. I assume OP won’t be able to reply but will be able to read this thread. I also declare my interest in PPP as obviously I write a column for them.

Let me be quite clear about this… If there was any collusion involved the players concerned would have been disqualified and the prizes distributed accordingly. How do I know this? Because it happened to me. That’s how I got to know the people at PPP in the first place.

Like Morningstars I suspected collusion at the final table of a qualifier into another event. In my case the Dublin EPT. I pinged the manager and didn’t expect to hear anything other than – “No it’s ok, there was a rational explanation.” I was told that they would get back to me. – The next day PPP – Pitboss called me and told me they were investigating the matter and that they were not happy with what they had seen.

I learned later how much effort went into this investigation. It’s simple enough to accuse someone online of cheating. It’s easy to get wound up about a perceived injustice. But Pit Boss had to prove beyond any legal question of doubt what had gone on. That also meant convincing the powers that be on other skins of the Tribeca network – as the players accused were not PPP players. And please bare in mind that the evidence I had was far more obvious. We’re talking short-stack raising high. Chip –Leader calling. Shortstack bets. CL [Who had been very aggressive] folds. This happened several times. I never learnt the exact holdings of the players but I was told that having seen the hands it was not normal for a player to fold given the holdings he had. IE: Something like folding TPTK. And certainly not the player’s usual style.

Any reasonable person would have concluded that it was collusion. However the legal stance was “soft play” - the players were banned and the ticket went to me as third place finisher and the money went to the fourth placed finisher. Yet even though this was absolutely the right decision there were still people who were worried about the concept of players being banned and disqualified. However I know which site I would rather play on. PPP is about as safe and straightforward as they come.

In your case Morningstars there obviously was nothing untoward. Daft maybe… But how do you know that the player wasn’t heads up on another table at the time? Or he may have had several tables up and had just decided he was folding so he could concentrate on another hand. I see that happen all the time. And PPP would know exactly what was going on.

At the end of the day you’re probably more annoyed that yourself that you were that close to a ticket and didn’t get one. Perhaps you were drinking one of those very expensive bottles of wine at the time. I’d certainly love to share a glass of whatever it was with you as my most expensive bottle was a €300 bottle of Margaux.

It would be a damn shame to remain in a tizzy and not play the Irish Open because of it - as with a 2 million prize pool you could stock a sensational cellar.

mewso

I've un-banned morningstars due to my part in the debacle. This does not mean everyone can tell me to **** off even if I deserve it (which I normally do)

morningstars

musician wrote:

I've un-banned morningstars due to my part in the debacle. This does not mean everyone can tell me to **** off even if I deserve it (which I normally do)

Thanks musician, if only for the chance to say I appreciated your previous post.

I certainly did fly off a chunk there

I hope I can explain why, if it means anything.

The original incident was still bugging me, even though I'm sure ( as explained by fatboydim ) it was thoroughly investigated.
As a customer, you sometimes feel you are the only customer, and I felt a little dismissed by PP, even though they have been very helpful in the past.

What worried me, was the appearance on this thread of somebody who was in full possession of all the facts. I mean facts I hadn't even received by official email.

Now..... PP are in possession of very sensitive information on us all, none of which any one of us would like to be made public.


So heres me, in my anonymous guise on boards.ie, venting about an incident, when along comes someone who can connect this thread, with my account, and does it quite publicly.

Further more......I have no idea who this person is, their relationship to boards.ie, or even their position in PP.

Does this person know boards members? Does this person socalize with boards members?


Am I the only one who finds this a little worrying?

OK, boards ID's are throw away....... but still...

So thats it, I guess I felt somewhat usurped....in the scheme of things.


I do apologize for any Neanderthalness.....



M

morningstars

Fatboydim wrote:

Perhaps you were drinking one of those very expensive bottles of wine at the time. I’d certainly love to share a glass of whatever it was with you as my most expensive bottle was a €300 bottle of Margaux.

It would be a damn shame to remain in a tizzy and not play the Irish Open because of it - as with a 2 million prize pool you could stock a sensational cellar.

Thanks fatboydim, appreciate the post...

Its Château Lafite Rothschild Pauillac 1996 for me, though I've never seen as black a wine as the Margaux, looks great in the glass....


M

bohsman

PPP have been known to give out too much info on occasion but its still good to have them on here by times and theyll certainly fight on your behalf if they feel theres collusion as itll get another player in PPP gear at the event.

Lazare

morningstars wrote:

Am I the only one who finds this a little worrying?



M

I'd imagine so.
You mentioned in your OP that this occured in an open feeder, I'd guess that collusion accusations are pretty infrequent on PP, therefore it wouldn't be too difficult for PPPpitboss to put two and two together. As for her browsing/posting on boards.ie, why wouldn't she? We are her target market after all.

5starpool

bohsman wrote:

PPP have been known to give out too much info on occasion but its still good to have them on here by times and theyll certainly fight on your behalf if they feel theres collusion as itll get another player in PPP gear at the event.

Cynic....

morningstars

Now that I'm no longer a member of the PP "flock", I'd like to share some thoughts.....if you dont care about my thoughts....then hit the back button now.....please...really

Before I start, I'm not angling for anything, and I'm not writing this for PP to read... seriously.


I moved house recently, and changed from digital to cable, sky rang me and wanted to know why I had switched, they then offered me many lovely things...which I wont mention here as it may be misconstrued as an attempt to angle something....

Now......I gave them something like 53 euro a month.....and they actively chased me up to keep my custom.

Now today I close my account on PP without so much as a whimper.

Considering I probably drop 300 a week into my account, I find it pretty strange I'm allowed to just walk away......

Before I get quoted here, I'm not bitter against PP, or trying to get back at them, there are too many poker rooms out there for that, I just think its weird that a "fish" like me can be allowed to simply pack up and leave....

If one of my customers did such a thing I'd be all over them like a rash, if only to find out why they want to leave in the first place....

Interested in the thoughts on this:

Has PP too many customers now?

Am I dealing too low in the deck?

Should I just **** off? :rolleyes:


M

Lazare

morningstars wrote:

Considering I probably drop 300 a week into my account, I find it pretty strange I'm allowed to just walk away......



M

:eek:

No offence M, but have you considered that maybe it's altruism on PP's account.

morningstars

Lazare wrote:

:eek:

No offence M, but have you considered that maybe it's altruism on PP's account.

PP exists because of people like me.....I doubt altruism is high on the weekly meeting agenda

Thanks for the sentiment though....

M

Fatboydim

morningstars I would say it's probably down to the fact that Poker can be seen as addictive. Imagine if you had a gambling problem. Imagine if you had a drink problem and a publican was phoning you up and asking why you don't drink in his establishment anymore? I would say it's because of these reasons that PPP and other companies do not chase customers who leave.

However I often find that if I don't play on a site for a while you get an email with some kind of freeroll or small deposit made into your acount if you return. But I would suggest that if you have suggestions to make to PPP or complaints then PM PPP Pit Boss as she will always reply to you and will always do her best to answer any questions you have.

morningstars

Fatboydim wrote:

But I would suggest that if you have suggestions to make to PPP or complaints then PM PPP Pit Boss as she will always reply to you and will always do her best to answer any questions you have.

Hi fatboydim,

Point taken on the gaming problem idea, maybe PP and others practice ethical considerations...

But I'm obviously not making myself clear again, I have neither complaint nor questions for PP, as I have been in touch with them through official channels, which I wont comment on here...

My observations are general, and possibly a comment on how silly it is to practice loyalty for a particular company when none of the same is reciprocated.....


M

hotspur

morningstars wrote:

If one of my customers did such a thing I'd be all over them like a rash, if only to find out why they want to leave in the first place....

morningstars wrote:

Should I just **** off? :rolleyes:

I'm gonna guess...yes.

Hectorjelly

I played on VC for something like 2 years generating god knows how much rake, and they always treated me pretty poorly. I was surprised when I left they made no attempt whatsoever to keep my custom.

HiCloy

Hectorjelly wrote:

I played on VC for something like 2 years generating god knows how much rake, and they always treated me pretty poorly. I was surprised when I left they made no attempt whatsoever to keep my custom.

Agreed. They never reply to support emails either. Now i've cleared the bonus I'm definitely off again

Bandana boy

Interesting points here
I am now exclusively playing on GJP
But in the last 2 years i have generated over $8k of rake on 4 different sites including over $15K on PPP and in this time Poker Stars have been the only one to try induce me back
Party Poker have in fact done the opposite they e-mailed me to say they where going to start charging me a fee on my unused account ensuring i withdrew and will now never go back

morningstars

hotspur wrote:

I'm gonna guess...yes.

Definition of rhetorical :

* concerned with effect or style of writing and speaking; "a rhetorical question is one asked solely to produce an effect (especially to make an assertion) rather than to elicit a reply"


M