Quality of lecturers

cognos

Does anyone know if there are any rules or standards for appointing lecturers in DCU or in Irish universities in general?

I would expect that to get to lecture in any decent universrity you would have to have either a PhD or plenty of research related to the area you are lecturing in or tonnes of experience in related industry and in addition to that you've taken courses on how to lecture/run a module.

Postgrads or other students are great for tutorials and labs etc. but surley the course organiser/main lecturer should have something more.

This is just something thats being annoying me for a while because it seems that the only requirement to give a module in DCU is that you've completed that module or something similar already.

gizmo

I'm not really sure how it works exactly but I do know for sure that a PhD is not a requirement in order to get a job in lecturing but outside of that. Getting in touch with HR in the college may yield some better answers for you.

cooker3

The standard of lecturers in DCU over 4 years has been really poor tbh.
I had much better teachers in school, the problem being while a lot of them are undoubtedly experts in their chosen field and know everything that they need to know most of them can't teach it well in anyway. I get the sense a lot of lecturers just teach because they have to do it not because they want to.

Will

theres a big difference between lecturing and teaching, teachers are there to drill things into you, lecturers are there to give you the ideas and from there its up to you to do your own work.

baztard

N-Tray wrote:

What a surprise!
Everyone knows DCU is a crap college where they teach youngsters to say "yew knew loike"
" i was like, soooo freaked out and stuff" and
"oh my god, my dad wouldnt pay my car insurance this year i was like its so like, unfair"

I think your getting DCU mixed up with UCD!

Anyway, in my time there I had some brilliant lecturers, who I learned a tonne from. Also had an equal amount of desperate lecturers who couldn't teach or clearly just didn't give a crap. Most lecturers were just OK which is what you get in a publicly funded university I guess.

H2G2

cooker3 wrote:

The standard of lecturers in DCU over 4 years has been really poor tbh.

I think that’s unfair. Plenty of lecturers are committed and give 100% to teaching. Yes, like all professions, there is good and not so good, but sweeping generalisations like this are not fair.

Wilburt wrote:

theres a big difference between lecturing and teaching, teachers are there to drill things into you, lecturers are there to give you the ideas and from there its up to you to do your own work.

This is a very important point that is often overlooked by many students in my experience. A university is not school, students are adults, not school pupils and should be treated like adults who want to learn. After all, a university student chooses to attend university. A reasonable definition of the word lecture is as a discourse on a given subject before an audience for purposes of instruction. It’s a one-way medium, unlike school classes which is supposed to be two-way. A lecture environment (and by extension a university environment) relies on self-motivated students who are both willing to learn and make the effort to invest time in learning. As an aside: attending a lecture is not the same as learning, its just part of the process - another fact often overlooked.

I regularly get the feeling that a significant percentage of students don’t want to be in lectures and don’t really care. To me, it brings up issues of commitment… so maybe its time to start a new thread Quality of Students

Amz

N-Tray wrote:

What a surprise!
Everyone knows DCU is a crap college where they teach youngsters to say "yew knew loike"
" i was like, soooo freaked out and stuff" and
"oh my god, my dad wouldnt pay my car insurance this year i was like its so like, unfair"

Any more crap like this and you're banned.

I should be banning you for mixing DCU up with UCD.

Crucifix

I can't comment on the criteria, but I've never had a lecturer at DCU without a PhD.

cooker3

H2G2 wrote:

I think that’s unfair. Plenty of lecturers are committed and give 100% to teaching. Yes, like all professions, there is good and not so good, but sweeping generalisations like this are not fair.

I have no doubt there are many great lecturers in the college. In my experience the lecturers that I have had for the most part have been poor.

cognos

I've had some really good lecturers in my time at DCU (Eugene Kennedy and Charlie Daly spring to mind, I won't name the really bad ones). But there are some that are very bad and its for different reasons.

There are the ones that have just graduated with their own primary degree and have nothing to offer beyond the notes someone else prepared so they just read them out loud in class.

There are the ones that see lectures as an annoying chore that they have to do to be allowed do their research or whatever.

There are the ones with no skill in presenting a lecture.

And there are the ones with no skill in organising a whole module and assesments etc.

And of course there are some with a combination of the above.

Thats why I was wondering if there were (and assuming that there wasnt) any standards being applied in the selection/training of lecturers.

Another thing I've noticed (in CA) is the problem were each year students have problems with the same lecturer/module and each year the module and lecturer remains the same - is there anything that can be done to higlight a poor lecturer/module and get them replaced? Is there any procedure for students to report poor quality in their lecturers or course?

Will

amz: maybe n-tray is dyslexic
i always say dcu is ucd for dyslexic southsiders me being from the southern end of this county, so its ok im allowed say it if any of you northies say it il have you scalped

well aywho yew know loike i gota do shtuff and loike take moy daddys cor for a spin roysh now, one last point roysh... H2G2 is on the roysh point, students these days roysh are sooo apathetic, you know loike! Lecturers are there to focking do a job, talk roysh! Its up to the individual student roysh to learn from there. Of focking course its makes it easier roysh to attend a lecture if the lecturer is fockin animated, but either way its up to the student to learn the fockin material...its college not clongowes loike!

ah DCU already working its charms on me
(p!ss take btw, just in case)

Crucifix

cognos wrote:

Eugene Kennedy

Legend. Unfortunately not lecturing anymore AFAIK, but when people say good lecturer I think of Eugene Kennedy.

GavMan

Carefull here now boys. some llecturers actually read boards

micromegas

Since I was only a student at DCU for about five months last spring, I can only speak in terms of comparison. I know that the standard fair at my university in America is a Ph. D or Ph. D candidacy. There are a few professors to are givin temporary lecture positions because of their amount of experience in the field. However, most if not all tenured faculty at my university hold a Ph. D in their field.

That said, the differences between how lecturers are at DCU and how they are in the US are vast at times. Not saying it's bad, just quite different. It took a few weeks just to get accustomed to that aspect of studying abroad.

micromegas

Also, none of the lecturers I had at DCU were bad. I was among the last to be taught by John Horgan before he retired, though his teaching style was a bit unorthodox.

athtrasna

micromegas wrote:

Also, none of the lecturers I had at DCU were bad. I was among the last to be taught by John Horgan before he retired, though his teaching style was a bit unorthodox.

John was great - not necessarily at sticking to a subject but inspirational all the same.

Compare that to newer lecturers whose idea of giving a lecture is to spend an hour reading out notes that have been on Moodle all day and then letting the class mouthpieces "discuss" it for another hour :rolleyes: A PhD does not necessarily make a good lecturer!

micromegas

athtrasna wrote:

John was great - not necessarily at sticking to a subject but inspirational all the same.

Compare that to newer lecturers whose idea of giving a lecture is to spend an hour reading out notes that have been on Moodle all day and then letting the class mouthpieces "discuss" it for another hour :rolleyes: A PhD does not necessarily make a good lecturer!

I agree -- John is great. Despite the fact that he's retired and I'm 3,500 miles away, he still answers my e-mails when I have a question about something he would know about. He's been very helpful.

The best lecturer I had at DCU was Eddie Holt. His classes were more like open debates, which I liked quite a bit. Especially being an American, it gave me insight I would not have otherwise gotten.

rugbug86

so you'll just get your forum fix anywhere, huh?!!

heard about that module alright, a few friends of mine were repeating it and failed.

micromegas

i was afraid that gary murphy was going to fail me. luckily he didn't.

Huggles

cooker3 wrote:

The standard of lecturers in DCU over 4 years has been really poor tbh.

Ok, how in the name of God are you able to make a statement like that? You either have a ****load of mates in other courses that cover the entire University Syllabus or you have a time turner a la Hermione Grainger in Harry Potter enabaling yout o be at every single lecture.

Please explain how you can make such a sweeping generalisation?

rugbug86

i'm gonna go out on the limb here and presume cooker is talking about his personal experiences.

personally, i've had a good standard of lecturing - for the most part. i have some super lecturers who i have the utmost respect for, and then i have some tools who can barely read their own notes properly.

thankfully i've had more of the good ones than the bad ones. hope the standard is maintained when i hit final year next year!!

gizmo

Indeed, Rob is more than likely referring to the recent woes which have afflicted the School of Computing.

For instance we have lecturers who:

Complain to the Program Board that the pass rate in a module was too high, subsequently take over the module, do a shoddy (at least in our opinions) job at teaching it and give us the most difficult exam possible. All complete with misleading tips in the run up to it.

Insinuate that its the students responsibility to ensure the lecturers notes are correct.

Model the module on their PhD and mark the paper in such a way that if you disagree with them you'd sure as hell better be able to explain why.

Refuse to remark a paper if you go up to them after an exam. "It's just not my policy".

All of this is worse when you hear from lecturers in other schools who are far more accommodating to their students. It's a problem the School Of Computing has always had really and there seems to be a very small amount of lectures who are really there for our benefit.

Alanthroneus

yeah my lecturer did something to that general effect but the module had absolutly no relevence to my course

StickyMcGinty

i think its hit and miss, i mean Andy Way is prob the soundest lecturer i've had, real decent guy with good notes. Joe Morris is up there aswell as John Murphy, Joe Morris' lectures are pretty boring but his notes are the best in the university that i've come across.

my main worry is that a lecturers notes will be sh1te, if the notes are good you can learn the module yourself even if they're boring/rubbish in a lecture. If they have bad notes, forget about it

in the last year or two though there has been some serious lecturer swapping goin on! hopefully that did graphics this year will be gone next year, any update on that actually?

gizmo

Not as of yet, myself and the other class reps still have a meeting or two left. Hopefully we'll know after those, if not it's a long wait until the program board.

cooker3

Yeah to clarify the lecturers I have encountered in DCU have been poor. I can't obviously speak for anyone else.

H2G2

cooker3 wrote:

Yeah to clarify the lecturers I have encountered in DCU have been poor. I can't obviously speak for anyone else.

Yet again another sweeping generalisation from you. Cooker3, you really must back up statements like this or stop talking rubbish.

So lets review the data…
As a CAIS4 student, you have 9 modules this year, 6 in 3rd year and 12 each in 2nd and 1st year, which gives you the grand total of 39 modules over 4 years. So at most you have had 39 different lecturers, although 30 would probably be a more realistically figure.

So you are telling the world, that of the 30 (or so) lecturers which have taught you in your four years at DCU, there were all poor. Has it ever occurred to you that you may be biased? Read the other comments here, they say at least some good things about DCU (and CA in particular) lecturers.

I can only presume that you have a chip on your shoulder and thus your skewed opinion.

Let me repeat again from my earlier post

H2G2 wrote:

…like all professions, there is good and not so good, but sweeping generalisations like this are not fair.

markpb

H2G2 wrote:

Yet again another sweeping generalisation from you. Cooker3, you really must back up statements like this or stop talking rubbish.

I did CA (CASE as it happens) just over two years ago and I'd broadly agree with Robert. I'm not sure that most of the lecturers are poor but CA compared to the rest of the college has a very poor reputation. I'm not biased (that I know of), I enjoyed the course, I did well, I came back to do a masters, I just wasn't impressed by many of the staff.

Several lecturers told us they didn't want to lecture, it was a condition of their research work. Hurm.

Staff would take time off and neither inform the students in any classes they were missing nor the school office.

They were asked to submit deadlines for projects to the school office so they wouldn't collide but most didn't bother.

Several staff members didn't bother to tell tutors what they were covering or what they expected them (or us) to have done for the tutorials, leaving them guessing from week to week.

In one particularly embarrassing saga, a lecturer quit, was dragged back to take a CA2 module, attended three lectures, missed the next few, took one more lecture and gave us a sample exam which turned out to be, word for word, the exact exam paper.

In another example of sillyness, a lecturer had a falling out with the head of school when his module was dropped. He continued to take it anyway and it wasn't until half way through the semester that the students taking it discovered they wouldn't be able to sit an exam in it.

At least two staff members refused to publish their notes on moodle or their website, preferring to keep it on the N drive which isn't accessible outside DCU. In at least one case it was because the staff member was copying (without any modification) notes from an American college and putting his own copyright notice on each page.

One lecturer gave us an assignment which involved writing shell scripts. These had to be submitted via a web page to a server where they would be run and automatically graded. He didn't believe us until after the deadline that we didn't have access to that machine or even know which variant/version of Unix it was running which made the entire thing an exercise in futility.

When it came to third and fourth year projects, unless the lecturer was really interested in the project, they took little or no time to supervise projects or prepare the student for the demo.

I could go on but it's getting tiresome. Yes, lecturers are not teachers and you're expected to do a lot of work yourself but that doesn't allow them to turn up to lectures, read notes for 50 minutes and then leave. In CA there's no emphasis at being good at you're job, it just doesn't matter.

It's easy to see the difference between a bog standard lecturer and a brilliant one. Charlie Daly, Mike Scott and David Gray stood out in my mind because they taught modules they were interested in, prepared the material well, set interesting and useful projects, gave an indication what extra reading was worthwhile and generally put the work in.

Amz

H2G2 claims to be a lecturer in computing so I would imagine he's a little sensitive. Just in case some of you aren't aware of this, you may want to be more careful about what you post in case it adversly affects your results etc.

Bad form on their part for not directly mentioning their particular interest in this topic on this thread.

cooker3

H2G2 wrote:

Yet again another sweeping generalisation from you. Cooker3, you really must back up statements like this or stop talking rubbish.

So lets review the data…
As a CAIS4 student, you have 9 modules this year, 6 in 3rd year and 12 each in 2nd and 1st year, which gives you the grand total of 39 modules over 4 years. So at most you have had 39 different lecturers, although 30 would probably be a more realistically figure.

So you are telling the world, that of the 30 (or so) lecturers which have taught you in your four years at DCU, there were all poor. Has it ever occurred to you that you may be biased? Read the other comments here, they say at least some good things about DCU (and CA in particular) lecturers.

I can only presume that you have a chip on your shoulder and thus your skewed opinion.

Ok, let me see can I try again to make clear what I mean.
In my 4 years at DCU I have found the overall standard of lecturers poor. This is not to say ever lecturer was bad and that I didn't have good lecturers but averaging out everyone I don't think I have been well served overall.
I in no way meant that every lecturer was bad.

H2G2

Amz wrote:

H2G2 claims to be a lecturer in computing so I would imagine he's a little sensitive.

Yes I am and No I am not, in that order.

Amz wrote:

you may want to be more careful about what you post in case it adversly affects your results etc.

I think that is an unreasonable comment.

Amz wrote:

Bad form on their part for not directly mentioning their particular interest in this topic on this thread

I lurk here, as I am genuinely interesting in student opinion - a balanced opinion, not rant. As an educational professional, it is always interesting and very informative to get student feedback. Boards are a great way to get that.

Amz

H2G2 wrote:

Yes I am and No I am not, in that order.

I apologise if I interpreted your response as being defensive as a result of sensitivity.

I think that is an unreasonable comment.

Why unreasonable?

How can the people posting on this thread be sure of that?

They've no way of knowing because they don't know who you are. I don't do computing, but I'd be damn worried that you might take offence to something I posted on this thread and that as a result you might hold that against me. You may be a professional, but you are only human and it's not unreasonable to presume that should your teaching standards be questioned that this might affect your decisions regarding, or opinions of the students who may have questioned those standards.

I lurk here, as I am genuinely interesting in student opinion - a balanced opinion, not rant. As an educational professional, it is always interesting and very informative to get student feedback. Boards are a great way to get that.

That’s great, but at the same time it’s also a forum for the students to express an opinion about DCU and their experiences there.

All they are are opinions and while you may disagree with them, I can guarantee you that you didn’t like all of your lecturers and didn’t find them all particularly good, or their methods particularly effective. The individuals posting on this thread are no different.

Also the fact that some of the students posting here may be known to you, for whatever reason and their anonymity may not be guaranteed I think it’s unfair of you to feel affronted when I tell people to be mindful when posting about lecturers who may be reading this particularly when that lecturer's identity is not known to them.

steveland?

Those who can, do
Those who can't, teach
Those who can't teach, lecture

andrew163

I'm in second year (CA). I can think of four School of Computing lecturers who stood out as really good (put a huge amount of effort in, were enthusiastic, motivated people), and one lecturer who was (to be blunt) absolutely crap (for reasons that I won't list here as it may indicate his or her identity).

Not a bad ratio, although I'm not even halfway through the degree course yet. I'm sure there are more from both categories to come..

cognos

DCU sells itself as the best university in Ireland and the school of computing sells CA as one of the best computing degrees in Europe but the quality of the course and its lecturers mean that this is just not the case. Given that I chose CA on the basis of those arguments I expect to be lectured by lecturers who are experts in what they are presenting and are skilled at giving lectures and organising a course.

If things continue as they are right now eventually word will get out and the illusion of DCU and CA will be destroyed and people will stop chosing it.

To add some balance:

-I dont expect a teacher but lecturing should be more than reading out the notes.

-I've had some very very good lecturers

-I'm satisfied with the majority of the CA course (I'm in CASE 2 but have also done 2 years in PHA)

Will

i know for a fact that CA graduates, and the course itself are held in high esteem by employers.

Once again its college, not secondary school. You are not spoon fed, up to you to do the work. if you feel a lecturer isnt the best or has no interest, well frankly you cant do sh!t about it, except grit your teeth and do your own work.

I am by no means an ideal student, ive had repeats every year coming through CA. Not from quality of lecturers, due to lack of work on my behalf. I amnt going to blame a lecturer if I fail something, if you do enough work you will pass.

cognos

Wilburt wrote:

if you feel a lecturer isnt the best or has no interest, well frankly you cant do sh!t about it, except grit your teeth and do your own work.

I know its not school and I don't want to be spoon fed anything but this should not be the case.

micromegas

cognos wrote:

I know its not school and I don't want to be spoon fed anything but this should not be the case.

couldn't agree more, cognos. that's an interesting difference between my college experience in ireland and my experience in america. the way lecturers approach their classes are quite different. almost opposite, in fact.

Mr. Brightside

I've spoken with a good few Erasmus and international students and a lot of them seem to think the standard of lecturing and indeed the standard of education in Ireland is a lot lower than in their own countries.

All I know is that in about half of my classes (Business), lecturers just read directly from the notes given to them by the publishing company whose book we were using. This is a very lazy method of lecturing. The other half did their own thing, some were quite good, others not.

micromegas

Mr. Brightside wrote:

I've spoken with a good few Erasmus and international students and a lot of them seem to think the standard of lecturing and indeed the standard of education in Ireland is a lot lower than in their own countries.

All I know is that in about half of my classes (Business), lecturers just read directly from the notes given to them by the publishing company whose book we were using. This is a very lazy method of lecturing. The other half did their own thing, some were quite good, others not.

I would hesitate to use the word 'lower' when comparing the two. The lecturers certainly are as qualified as any I have had here in America, however their approach to teaching is quite different. At DCU, my experience was much more DIY than what I got at my university here -- lecturers spit out notes/lectures and I was expected to know it come exam time. It's not an unreasonable expectation, just not what I'm used to.

Dublin's Finest

micromegas wrote:

I agree -- John is great. Despite the fact that he's retired and I'm 3,500 miles away, he still answers my e-mails when I have a question about something he would know about. He's been very helpful.

The best lecturer I had at DCU was Eddie Holt. His classes were more like open debates, which I liked quite a bit. Especially being an American, it gave me insight I would not have otherwise gotten.

Off topic I know, but both of the above mentioned: top blokes.

Will

i myself am on erasmus this year in france. I see a huge difference between the two colleges. Here they spoon feed you the stuff which really annoys me. Its more like secondary school than anything else. Attendance at labs are obligatory and they treat you like a pleb (maybe thats just the foreign students ) unlike in DCU where labs after 1st year werent obligatory.

The things people are saying about the quality of lecturers really annoys me, im sure its just not a phenomenom (sp?) unique to dcu either. As i keep saying its not secondary school, there is a certain amount of self learning each class, you are an adult in college not a child. If the lecturer is boring so what? deal with it. Im pretty sure its pretty boring for a lecturer too to keep teaching the same stuff over and over again to people.

I do know how painful a boring lecture can be, it really aggravates me when I could have spent aother hour or two in bed instead of attending a boring ass lecture.
Ive been bored in class and asked the lecturer a few questions purposely to stir some interest in the subject. They arent against the idea of answering questions in my experience. Its beneficial for the student and lecturer because one it shows that you are somewhat interested in the subject matter and two the lecturer will feel you are listening to them which makes them feel all gooey on the inside.

I know how boring it is to stand in front of a class and talk to them about a particular subject, whether itsa presentation im doing or a class announcement etc. All i get is blank faces staring up at me, looks of apathy and just general sleepiness. Not the most inspiring of looks i have to say
maybe the quality of student should be looked at?
its up to us as students to be interested in a subject and what we are studying, a few odd questions thrown at the lecturer could provide some entertainment and learning for both parties. just a thought, ive rambled on for too long.

tvr

all valid points if you look over at the UCD and Trinity forums they are complaining to about their lectures.

One thing that does annoy me is lectures who uses publishers powerpoint slide like wtf, do a bit of prep work. Also whats with letting 4 years do tutorials , some of them havent got a clue.

Also whats the story with Pearson Publishers are DCU on commission or something over in the business building 85% of every courses core book is Pearson and most our very poor.

The_Hustler

Just checked the book closest to me and sure enough, Pearson/Prentice Hall

cooker3

Books, what do you use them for?

Stargal

tvr wrote:

all valid points if you look over at the UCD and Trinity forums they are complaining to about their lectures.

Are you sure? I haven't seen anything like that on either forum.

tvr

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055055544

Use the search button there lots more for UCD and Trinity

tvr

cooker3 wrote:

Books, what do you use them for?

Some of us actually do abit of research rather than play poker and fail exams cooker3

fobster

tvr wrote:

Also whats the story with Pearson Publishers are DCU on commission or something over in the business building 85% of every courses core book is Pearson and most our very poor.

Lol and here's me thinking that it's McGraw Hill with the stranglehold. But yeah those two companies basically own the business school.

In one subject our lecturer must have been on commission from McGraw Hill, kept on telling us the book is really great, go buy it now, it's really good.

In fairness though it was a good book. But he reminded us every five minutes or so.

phantom_lord

tvr wrote:

Some of us actually do abit of research rather than play poker and fail exams cooker3

lol

H2G2

tvr wrote:

Also whats the story with Pearson Publishers are DCU on commission or something...

Sadly, no commission. The odd free book or two if you are lucky.
There is actually a very small number of publishers in the 3rd level sector. For example the Pearson group own lots of publishers such as:

• Pearson
• Pearson Education
• Pearson Phoenix
• Addison-Wesley
• Prentice Hall
• Putnam Berkley
• Longman
• Financial Times
• IDC
• Penguin
• Dorling Kindersley
• Puffin
• Ladybird
• Penguin

All of which have "Pearson" on the cover, so its no wonder people think there is bias in publisher choice. BTW, a quick look at McGraw-Hill and you will see they are the same, just a little smaller.