Parts & Service: Good Value?

Steffano2002

Hi there,

I booked my Suzuki Bandit 600 in the Priory (official Suzuki dealer) for next Tuesday as it is in desperate need of a service. The following will be done:

- New Brake Pads (front and back)
- New Spark Plugs
- New Chain and Sprockets
- Valve Clearance Check
- Try to fix intermittent electrical fault (when it rains heavily)
- Some other kind of balancing (Carb?) but I forgot what it's called

With an estimate of 6 hours labour, I was quoted €660 EUR for the lot.

What do you think? Am I forgetting something (I did oil & filter myself not too long ago)? Would you consider this crazy expensive, about right or cheap?

Any advice will be greatly appreciated!

Krusty_Clown

Crazy money.. I would expect to pay less than 250-300 quid for all of the above on the BMW, albeit without the chain and sprockets, although it would include other tasks like maintenance of ABS and drive shaft, etc..

Steffano2002

Oups! Forgot one big enough job:

- Carb Heaters (Uprated) - that's €110 EUR excl. fitting...

I still think it's crazy money myself though... Was hoping to get away with less than €500 EUR. And all this the week after I learn I've been made redundant...

Oryx

The plugs for your bike arent the cheapest, and a chain and sprockets will be well over €100. brakes about €20-25 per set maybe. So I can see how they are getting close to that figure. It may be slightly high, but garages around the country are charging approx €35 - €65 per hour labour, so its not outrageous compared to some. Electrical faults are a nightmare to estimate, cos you could fix it in half an hour or it could take half a day.

Im in the bike trade, Im stating my bias now

ps why not get a quote elsewhere?

Dr4gul4

- New Chain and Sprockets

thats gonna cost ya about 200 to 250. i got mine dont a few months back.. nearly had a stroke when i got the bill. and to top it all off she's back in 4 a service now any way

BigCon

Hopefully you won't need the carb heaters until next winter (assuming the worst of the winter's behind us), maybe you could hold off getting them until then?

Garibaldi

I had a new chain and sprockets fitted on the VFR in January, and it cost me €120 in total. Not too shabby.

Oryx

Garibaldi wrote:

I had a new chain and sprockets fitted on the VFR in January, and it cost me €120 in total. Not too shabby.

VFR what cc? And what chain did you get?

bugs

Valve clearances require the engine head to be removed so that you can check if the shims on the valves are within tolerance. This is probably where the labour hours are going. I definetly wouldn't ask for it to be done unless the model you own has a reputation for chewing shims or you can hear a knocking sound from the head.

A carb balance checks the vacuum created from each cylinder into the carbs and adjusts them so they all pull the same amount of air. But unless your bike has an erratic idle or the power feels uneven, i wouldn't bother with that either. A balance improves fuel economy, but its negligible at best.

Beyond the electrical fault, everything else should be within your own ability to replace.
If you get all of it done, the bike should be faultless till the next service is due, but you'd really want to learn how to replace the simpler things, which will save you a packet in the long run

seamus

You'll find in this country that your massive cost is parts.

You could have done all of the above yourself and paid upwards of €500 for the parts.

bushy...

bugs wrote:

Valve clearances require the engine head to be removed so that you can check if the shims on the valves are within tolerance. This is probably where the labour hours are going. I definetly wouldn't ask for it to be done unless the model you own has a reputation for chewing shims or you can hear a knocking sound from the head.

Thats not great advice at all , if the valve clearances need to be checked , they need to be checked. Damaged valve seats/valves in the future would be no fun at all.
Next up , the head doesn't have to be removed just the rocker cover ( and stuff like coils if they are in the way.
Unless something has changed , bandits have little screw&locknut adjusters instead of shims , bit quicker and easier to do .
If it was a bike with shims , they shouldn't "get chewed" ( can wear a tiny bit though) , they are how you set the clearances .
They come in a range of thicknesses , if a valve has too much clearance, you pick the appropriate thicker one one and slip it in n vice versa.
If you wait for noises , it can be too late sometimes . You won't hear a tight clearance , and it may be more damage than a loose (noisy )one.You may end up with knackered rocker and/or camshaft ( from lack of oil film ) and/or knackered valve/valve seat ( from leakage).

bugs

I have no experience with bandits. I still wouldn't happily just hand over money to a garage for any work which they decide is needed. If its a case that its part of the service for that particular mileage, then fair enough.

sutty

Steff, can you give a brake down of the service with the costs for each part? It does seem like alot.

I dropped my bike into Ducati to have it sorted and serviced. No pads and chains n sprockets needed. But I did get a new front tire, At the same time they also had to repair the butterfly valves. I paid just over the 600 mark. Turned out they had put new timing belts on that wheren't needed. So I ended up getting them for free. Just before Christmas, while in a rather heated "discussion" over the phone. It came to light that I had indeed been over charged after that fact and now have 120 credit in the shop. So really the service (6000 miles) was quite cheap for what needed doing. I would suggest double checking it with an other shop too and then just factor in differences like labour costs. But as others said, I can see how the price got so high.

Garibaldi

KatieK wrote:

VFR what cc? And what chain did you get?

800cc and an O-ring thing.

Elfish

bushy... wrote:

Thats not great advice at all , if the valve clearances need to be checked , they need to be checked. Damaged valve seats/valves in the future would be no fun at all.
Next up , the head doesn't have to be removed just the rocker cover ( and stuff like coils if they are in the way.
Unless something has changed , bandits have little screw&locknut adjusters instead of shims , bit quicker and easier to do .
If it was a bike with shims , they shouldn't "get chewed" ( can wear a tiny bit though) , they are how you set the clearances .
They come in a range of thicknesses , if a valve has too much clearance, you pick the appropriate thicker one one and slip it in n vice versa.
If you wait for noises , it can be too late sometimes . You won't hear a tight clearance , and it may be more damage than a loose (noisy )one.You may end up with knackered rocker and/or camshaft ( from lack of oil film ) and/or knackered valve/valve seat ( from leakage).

I agree with this fully. And yep you don't need to go near taking the head off - 15 minute job to take off petrol tank, airbox, coils and then rocker cover.
And the garage shouldn't balance the carbs without checking valve clearances first - balancing carbs without making sure clearances are OK is a waste of time.

If valve clearances are due by mileage, don't ignore them, you're only running risk of bigger problems down the line. If clearances on Bandit done with shims (not familiar myself), if they replace ones, ask for the old ones. Maybe the mechanic might think you're being a dick but at least then you will know they were actually done. Probably easier just to do yourself, I wouldn't trust a garage to do it properly, but that's just me being paranoid when it comes to the bike :cool:

Steffano2002

Firstly, thank you for all your replies! Where do I start...

First off, everything that is being done is because I asked for it. That's everything except the carb balancing which the mechanic suggested as he just had it done on his Bandit and said it made a huge difference to his bike (a friend of his does it with a laptop).

Carb heaters could indeed wait until next summer provided the weather stays warmish from now on. Might actually hold off on that now that I think of it...

What really needs to be done is:

- Chain & Sprockets (you'd all be shouting at me if you saw the state of mine... )
- Brake Pads
- Spark Plugs (for all I know the one's in there now could have been there since the bike was bought...)
- Valve Clearance (bought the Suzuki Bandit manual on eBay and it says it has to be done)
- Try to find that bloody electrical fault (I told him not to spend more than 30 minutes on that though cos I think it may have been carb icing that was causing it and not the rain...)
- Carb Balancing (although this fully depends on cost - if it's ridiculous I'll pass...)

Sutty, I'll ring them back tomorrow to get an exact price breakdown for the above + labour.

Steffano2002

Well, I rang the Priory of Sion back and asked them for a breakdown of price.

Here we go (all prices include VAT):

- Chain & Sprockets: €180 EUR
- Spark Plugs: €30 EUR
- Brake Pads: €75 EUR (€25 EUR x 3)
- Valve Clearance: 2.5 hours (!!!) @ €45 EUR per hour = €112.50 EUR
- Carb Balancing: 1 to 2 hours (!!!) @ €45 EUR per hour = €90 EUR at most

As you can see I won't be getting the Carb Heaters (will wait until next autumn).

Now, does it really take that long to do the valve clearance and carb balancing? I find that extremely long...

As it is, if we assume changing the chain/sprockets, spark plugs, brake pads will take around 2 hours and add the valve clearance and carb balancing I'm looking at €577.50 EUR...

I told him I didn't want to go over €450 EUR so he said "bring it in and we'll do everything we can until we reach €450 EUR then we'll call you".

What do you think? Can you recommend another garage/mechanic (I'll buy the parts if need be) that you trust and that could do the above? I want to get other quotes to see if I'm getting ripped off here...

Hotblack Desiato

Bandit has screw and locknut valve adjusters same as my GPz. If you've done it before it's easily done in 30 minutes once the tank etc. is off. Requires a stone cold engine though. Carb balancing - 10 or 15 minutes again once tank is off (and valves checked if due.) So the labour they're quoting you is a joke.

I had a very bad warranty experience with Priory years ago which is the reason I will never, ever buy a Suzuki again as long as they are the importers.

As others have said, do not skip valve checks, very much a false economy. Carb balancing does improve fuel economy a bit, but it usually makes the bike idle much smoother and respond a lot better to the throttle too, well worth getting done as it's only a few minutes work when the tank is already off!

Steffano2002

You know what Ninja900, I rang BikeWorld (I think that's what they're called) and they rang me back saying that the Valve Checking would take 4 hours! 4 hours!!!

Can anybody recommend somebody who doesn't rip off people for a living???

sutty

You tried mega bikes? I've never had any problems with them. They checked over Oldyellers bike there the other week, it only came to €238inc vat.

All fluids changes,
Electrics checked, (at my request)
New NKG Spark plugs
chain tensioned and lubes
Tires checked for leaks (at my request)
then some other work done too. All working and tested on a 2 and a half hour drive to Waterford the next day. I dont think I have ever had a service go over the 300 mark with them.

Garibaldi

Motorbiking Bournemouth!

Steffano2002

Rang Mega Bikes and they also said it could take 4 hours to check the valve clearance, perhaps more if they find a problem... Anyway, they seem to be the cheapest so I booked the bike in for Tuesday as I desperately need a new chain and sprockets! P!ssed off about it all though...

Luckycharm

As I have said before I would not go anywhere near the big shops as always find they are trying to rip you off. Always go to Delaneys on Harolds cross bridge small family business over 70yrs mine is only a scooter but I know they fix bikes too give them a ring 4971509.

dogpile

Why not purchase plugs/brake pads and chain/sprocket yaself and do them? piece of piss to do:rolleyes:

Steffano2002

dogpile wrote:

Why not purchase plugs/brake pads and chain/sprocket yaself and do them? piece of piss to do:rolleyes:

When you have tolls, yes, I agree. Not the case for me though...

Hotblack Desiato

Steffano2002 wrote:

Rang Mega Bikes and they also said it could take 4 hours to check the valve clearance, perhaps more if they find a problem...

Oh come on! Even if the clearances were adjusted by shims and they had to take the cams out 4 hours is milking it - and often there is a special tool which avoids the need to remove the cams, anyway.

The Bandit is screw-and-locknut so much much quicker to do than shims. I've checked all 16 valves (and adjusted a few) on my GPz in half an hour once the tank and panels were off.

Tools cost money all right but pay for themselves within one or two jobs. You'd be amazed how much you can do with a basic set of good quality spanners and a few sockets, most fasteners on Japanese bikes are 10,12,14 and 17mm hex head, you don't need a whole socket set. You can get a set of allen bits for a few euro (for fairings and panels). Anything else you can pick up as you need it. If you start with the small easy jobs and build up your confidence and tool collection gradually it's all pretty painless. Get a Haynes (or similar) workshop manual for your bike, most routine service jobs are easy enough, and you can still leave in the bike for the harder jobs while saving money by doing the easier ones yourself.

galwaytt

well, I trained as a bike mechanic in the UK in the bad old days, and I'm afraid that as we can all see, it's coming down to labour pricing, really.

First, plugs, chain & sprockets can be done by anyone, and you will save, let's say, 1 hrs labour at shop rates. That's €45, then.

Checking the valves should indeed take under an hour - but not if a lot of them needed adjustment - it's more important they're done right, rather than worked against the clock. 4 hours is nuts. I'd garner for a min of 1 hrs labour (you can't buy fractions of an hour for stuff like this, it's not worked out on a per-minute basis...), but no more than 2. So that's another €90 off that quote you got. €135 saved so far, methinks.

Carb balancing - do not ignore this. It's not hard, and it makes such a difference to creating a smooth running and responsive engine. Again, 1 hour. Another €45 saved there, possibly.

That's €180 saved of that quote.

Of course the only other way to drive a coach and horses through that price is on the labour rate itself, and the only way to do that I'm afraid, is to leave Dublin.........then you're looking at €25-30 p/h.

Steffano2002

ninja900 wrote:

Oh come on! Even if the clearances were adjusted by shims and they had to take the cams out 4 hours is milking it - and often there is a special tool which avoids the need to remove the cams, anyway.

The Bandit is screw-and-locknut so much much quicker to do than shims. I've checked all 16 valves (and adjusted a few) on my GPz in half an hour once the tank and panels were off.

Well, I dropped the bike in the Priory this morning (didn't go with Mega Bikes in the end as they're just too far for me and the Priory is on my way to work). I'll find out this afternoon how much they charged me... I bet you it will be 3 or 4 hours... If only mechanics could be honest people! :mad:

ninja900 wrote:

Tools cost money all right but pay for themselves within one or two jobs. You'd be amazed how much you can do with a basic set of good quality spanners and a few sockets, most fasteners on Japanese bikes are 10,12,14 and 17mm hex head, you don't need a whole socket set. You can get a set of allen bits for a few euro (for fairings and panels). Anything else you can pick up as you need it. If you start with the small easy jobs and build up your confidence and tool collection gradually it's all pretty painless. Get a Haynes (or similar) workshop manual for your bike, most routine service jobs are easy enough, and you can still leave in the bike for the harder jobs while saving money by doing the easier ones yourself.

I fully agree with you. I have to invest in a proper set of tools. FAST! I actually took a basic machanics course last autumn so I know how to change oil/filter, brake discs/pads, spark plugs, etc etc. But I've no tools to do it yet (proper tools don't come cheap)!

dogpile

Steffano2002 wrote:

I fully agree with you. I have to invest in a proper set of tools. FAST! I actually took a basic machanics course last autumn so I know how to change oil/filter, brake discs/pads, spark plugs, etc etc. But I've no tools to do it yet (proper tools don't come cheap)!

I picked up a 100 and odd piece socket set from Argos for 45 quid, good selection of wrenches, Ratchet, Sockets, Extension bar, Spark plug sockets, Hex keys...all decent quality and good enough for minor jobs you can do yaself

The Doktor

Steffano2002 wrote:

I fully agree with you. I have to invest in a proper set of tools. FAST! I actually took a basic machanics course last autumn so I know how to change oil/filter, brake discs/pads, spark plugs, etc etc. But I've no tools to do it yet (proper tools don't come cheap)!

I was in McQuillans in Blanchardstown yesetrday. A mate of mine needed a socket set. He got a nice Draper one for €16. Went from 8mm to 24mm. Rachet, extensions etc. Now it was Draper Value branding on it, and they had other much nicer ones for about €30. You could get really nice ones with heaps of stuff, like screwdriver bits and allen/torx head sockets for about 60.
Tools are not near as expensive as they used to be.
I needed a Torx T8 drive meself, and got one for €3. I mean thats cheap.
Unless you want fancy brand tools, which I cannot justify, you can get yerself a nice set of tools for not a whole lot of money.


http://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-Expert-Metric-Chrome-Vanadium/dp/B0001K9QDQ/sr=1-9/qid=1172579476/ref=sr_1_9/203-2277159-1616745?ie=UTF8&s=diytools

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Magnum-Screwdriver-set-Box-449/dp/B0001GRVCI/sr=1-3/qid=1172579721/ref=sr_1_3/203-2277159-1616745?ie=UTF8&s=diytools

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-Expert-59257-T-Handled-Ball/dp/B0001K9XBG/sr=1-5/qid=1172579751/ref=sr_1_5/203-2277159-1616745?ie=UTF8&s=diytools

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-36000-Hex-Key-Case/dp/B0001K9THE/sr=1-4/qid=1172579751/ref=sr_1_4/203-2277159-1616745?ie=UTF8&s=diytools

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-Expert-64605-Combination-Spanner/dp/B0001K9Z7I/sr=1-12/qid=1172579948/ref=sr_1_12/203-2277159-1616745?ie=UTF8&s=diytools

And amazon can be expensive! You will get most of that stuff in McQuillans or the like cheaper.
All you need then is a pliers or 2 and a plug spanner for your bike and you can do a huge amount of work on your bike.
Other things you can get as you need them, and you can build up ur tool kit that way.

Now if anyone tells you that cheap tools dont cut it, I dissagree (to a point). I had a set of screwdrivers that I use a lot (for my job), They were around £140. The mains ones I used lasted 2 years. So in an emergency I went and got the set of stanley ones shown above. I am still using them 6 years later.

Steffano2002

dogpile wrote:

I picked up a 100 and odd piece socket set from Argos for 45 quid, good selection of wrenches, Ratchet, Sockets, Extension bar, Spark plug sockets, Hex keys...all decent quality and good enough for minor jobs you can do yaself

Might go check them out! I was told Homebase did good tools also at a decent price.

My dream would be to have a proper set of Teng Tools but they don't come cheap...

Steffano2002

Well, got the bike back and here's the verdict:

Asked for the following to be done:

- Valve Clearance Check
- Brake Pads: Front & Back
- Spark Plugs
- Chain & Sprockets

The following was done:

- Valve Clearance Check (seems that way anyway - no way of checking really...)
- Brake Pads: Back Only (Front Pads were "grand" - I think he didn't have time...)
- Spark Plugs (I hope so anyway)
- Chain & Sprockets
- Oil & Filter (Specifically asked NOT do do it)

Here's what the invoice says:

- Labour: €200
- NGK Plugs x 4 = €29.80
- Oil Filter = €10.46
- PIN x 2 = €9.94 (what's that?)
- X RING GSF600 = €105 (what's that?)
- Pads Rear = €20.92
- Filter = €20.14 (what filter is that then? Air Filter?)

Total €396.26 ex. VAT - €449.76 incl. VAT

What I'm pissed off about:

- When I arrived in the shop, the "main guy" I was speaking to was still working on the bike so I asked the young fellow at the desk what time he had started on my bike and he said around 2PM. Got the bike back at 4:45PM thus hourly labour rate was €200 / 3 hours (max) = €66.67 EUR per Hour (I was told on the phone labour was €55 per hour)...

- The Oil and Filter were changed. I asked him why as I made it very clear I did not need it done (I do it myself - had been done 500km ago). He said "the oil didn't look like the right one. It should be semi-synthetic 10W40". I told him that's exactly what it was but he said "We changed it anyway"...

- Front Brake Pads weren't changed. He said it was because they were fine. I know it's because he didn't have time to change them. I dropped my bike at 8:30AM and they only started to work on it at 2PM. He told me it was because he booked another Bandit service, after me, and worked on that bike first...

- I asked them to see if they can find a problem with the electrics but they didn't even have time to change the brake pads like I asked so I knew there was no point in asking about it...

- My bike was filthy when I got it back. Front mud guard and fuel tank were greasy and full of finger/hand prints. Engine was all greasy also. Apparently the first rocker cover gasket they put in was leaking so they had to change it…

I was really tired yesterday evening and I couldn't have been arsed fighting this... I just wanted to get my bike back and run away. I knew it was going to be horrible anyway...
I'll NEVER go there again and would NEVER recommend them to anyone (and anyway, who knows a mechanic you can recommend in this world?). Horrible experience overall (as predicted). I'm just happy it cost €450 EUR and not €650/700 EUR. My bike is running ok now that the chain and sprockets have been changed (the old ones were starting to skip) but I have the feeling it has lost power, especially when I'm high in the revs (7,000+ RPM).

That was my nightmare story anyway. Hope you enjoyed as much as I did...

The Doktor

This is exactly why you need to get your own tools!!!
I mean you asked for the front pads to be done.. they should be done, weather they need it or not. I hate that crap!!
I used to leave my car (work one) into a place to be serviced. I always used to say, "dont clean it. Specially dont clean the inside"... and every time i got it back there was that son of a gun ****e all over the thing.
I now have a toyota, and when I leave that in, they do exactly what I tell them.. its great.. they never clean it!!

I left my new bike into capital honda last year for its first service, and was happy with it. They even cleaned it (even though id rather they didnt but i never told them). How ever from now, I will be doing it myself.

Some of the stuff I have seen is unreal. I saw a guy in one bike shop(which shall remain nameless), taking a bolt out with a socket, and he was banging the ratchet off the tank every time he turned it!!! Id go mad if that was my bike!!!
Get yerself a Service Manual, and DIY.

Steffano2002

I already got the Suzuki Bandit Manual on CD-ROM from eBay and I'm sure as hell going to buy my own tools after that! :mad:

galwaytt

With all that money you spent, you could have had one of these for less...the lift that is, not the bike.........! !




Bit late, I know, but why, oh why, did you pay for stuff not done, and not at the agreed price ???? And he can't charge for the oil if he did it against specific instruction.

Small claim court, a diy claim - even if it's only a 100, it'd be worth getting it back......

Steffano2002

galwaytt wrote:

Bit late, I know, but why, oh why, did you pay for stuff not done, and not at the agreed price ???? And he can't charge for the oil if he did it against specific instruction.

Small claim court, a diy claim - even if it's only a 100, it'd be worth getting it back......

I know, I know... I just couldn't be @rsed... And I know it's because of people like myself that these things keep happening... I learned my lesson (which I knew before dropping the bike anyway). It gave me a good kick up the @rse to get tools anyway!

galwaytt

...speaking of which, I got a deal on Teng Torx and Sline keys at last years show......20 Yo-Yo's iirc..............

Wait 'til after the show before buying, there might be something there..

Steffano2002

galwaytt wrote:

...speaking of which, I got a deal on Teng Torx and Sline keys at last years show......20 Yo-Yo's iirc..............

Wait 'til after the show before buying, there might be something there..

What show are you talking about? The motorbike show on in the RDS thies week-end? Do Teng Tools have a stand there?

galwaytt

yes, the Bike Show !! It wasn't a Teng stand, just some guy selling tools.........