Anglican/Catholic Unity

Mrs. MacGyver

Read in the Irish Daily Mail that there is a leaked report by ARCIC concerning the proposal that Catholics and Anglicans unite under the pope. Just wondering what peoples obs are, what obstackles are there to Christian unity, will it happen in our lifetime or is it just an unobtainable vision???

See below extract of article:

Catholics under the leadership of the Pope are to be published this year.

The proposal, is designed to encourage Christian unity. It has been discussed by senior bishops of both Churches and is being reviewed by the Vatican.

If agreed, it would see Anglicans reunited with the Roman Catholic Church just under five centuries after the Protestant split from Rome.

In a document titled Growing Together In Unity And Mission, the Anglican-Roman Catholic Commission for Unity and Mission, set up in 2000 to try to bring both Churches together, outlines how they could unite and calls for a "full, ecclesial union".

Such a historic reunion is seen as highly unlikely, not least because of turmoil among Anglicans themselves over gay ordination.

Divisions have erupted on that issue as archbishops of the 38 provinces of the Anglican Communion meet in Tanzania, with primates at the conference sending a message of support to orthodox members of the US Episcopal Church who are opposed to its ordination of gay bishop Gene Robinson.

Seven of the conservative primates have refused to share communion with Episcopal Church leader Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori.

But the Anglican-Roman Catholic Commission claims that there is enough common ground between the two Churches to make a "call for action" to unite them.

It also outlines ways in which the two sides could be amalgamated.

These include Anglicans accepting the Pope as universal primate, inviting lay and ordained members of both denominations to attend each other’s gatherings, and inviting Anglican bishops to accompany Catholic ones on visits to Rome.

It has also suggested that special protocols be drawn up to handle the movement of clergy from one Church to another and it lays out the common teachings for children at the Sunday schools of both churches.

Juza1973

When I came to live in Ireland I was the guest of a Protestant family. Mrs X (it's an original fake name ) told me one day that she was in a project to "unite Catholics and Protestants, at least in Ireland". She didn't want to came into detail, but on many Masses the Priest say that they did such and such with the Church of Ireland. Since he seems to spend a lot of time here, I thank my brothers in Christ for feeding the Priest in our place

BrianCalgary

Instead of unity amongst the churches, as in coming under one earthly umbrella, I look forward to a day when Christian denominations can work together to bring the love of Christ to a community.

Anglicans and Catholics I think have far too many diiferences for a merger to happen.

With regard to other denominations, sometimes there is just a minor issue of how to do things which has created the division. We as Christians have to recognize those divisions and respect them, while maintaining the cornerstones of the faith, ie. resurrection, grace through faith, trinity, salvation through Christ.

Juza1973

BrianCalgary wrote:

With regard to other denominations, sometimes there is just a minor issue of how to do things which has created the division. We as Christians have to recognize those divisions and respect them, while maintaining the cornerstones of the faith, ie. resurrection, grace through faith, trinity, salvation through Christ.

I think your position is very wise and that it could give more fruits to the cause of Jesus Christ.

Mrs. MacGyver

I also agree with Brian. We can contribute in different ways ti bring the light of Christ to the worlld. Im my parish ecumenism is practised where possible, especially during the Christian weeks of unity where we attend each other's churches. When I was doing my thesis i explored the role of the laity in both communities and as a result the catholic community have set up a parish forum with many levels to address the lack of community and togetherness (comunity & togetherness are prevalent in the CofI) so i was glad they adopted measures towards improving community spirit as a result. More Christian communities could learn from this.

Bradidup

Catholics & Anglicans uniting???, the Bible (Gods Word) mentions of it!!!!!!!. Be Warned!!

1 Timothy 4.
4:1. Now the Spirit manifestly saith that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error and doctrines of devils, :2. Speaking lies in hypocrisy and having their conscience seared, Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving by the faithful and by them that have known the truth.
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0001/0001_01.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0082/0082_01.asp

Michael G

I think this is overstated and some of the views in this link might explain why. The resistance in the Anglican Church to permissiveness towards homosexuals comes mainly from Evangelicals and they are the ones least likely to want to come back to Rome.

Excelsior

I think evangelical Anglicans (I'm thinking of people like JI Packer, Alister McGrath and NT Wright) have done more for unity than many of the mainstream liberals in the communion Michael.

I'm a dirty dissenter however and we weren't invited into the conversation (no hard feelings though *sob*) but I think ARCIC is at its best when it goes behind the rhetoric of past historic battles to show how much we have in common (like it did in Mary: Grace and Hope). For me, talk of reunifying is just adding a new (and even more fantastical) layer of rhetoric when what is needed (as Ms.McGyver pointed out) is fellowship and shared mission between Christians on a local level.

Michael G

Ecelsior, the modern Catholic Church in Ireland, since the Second Vatican Council, is now in practice as near to Lutheranism as you can get. They have either tacitly or explicitly discarded most if not all of the "Catholic" elements that offended Irish Anglicans, such as the doctrine of Transubstantiation, the Sacrament of Confession and the veneration of Mary. Only a small number of traditionalist Catholics still hold those beliefs. (The Pope does too, but that does not have much influence at the level of Irish parishes.) So basically the Irish Church is de facto now an Anglican province. Perhaps you will find that reassuring.

Excelsior

Michael, I don't find it reassuring, nor do I agree with it. I don't see how it has much relevance to my suggestion that substantiative progress that has been made in the ecumenical agenda has been fostered on the Anglican side by the evangelical contingent who realise that the shared mission of Christians from diverse backgrounds is a crucial aspiration presented to us in the Scriptures.

We are all simply Christians. The traditions we follow and the routes we walk are important and not bad things but I think Ms McGyver came very close to expressing things the way I see it- unity is expressed not institutionally, but missionally on a local level as we pray, worship and serve together.

Michael G

Excelsior, first of all my apologies for spelling your username wrongly in my last post. Vanity compels me to say that it was careless typing, not illiteracy.

Secondly, you evidently know much more about it than I do and I certainly don't dispute what you say about the evangelical contribution to ecumenism. I must confess, however, that I am not an enthusiast for ecumenism as it is conventionally understood. I believe in mutual respect between Christian denominations, but I am against compromises in Catholic teaching and tradition, and I believe that these have happened widely in the Irish Catholic Church in the last forty years, often – though not always – in defiance or disregard of Rome. I may as well come clean: basically, I am a very conservative Roman Catholic.

philologos

I wouldn't agree with it (I'm an Anglican), I don't believe that the Pope is infallable and I never will. I believe that the union would be incapable in that respect. Christian unity doesn't need to happen, people should be free to have flexibility in what way they practise their faith. That is the reason why Christianity is so accessible to so many people, because there are so many different ways to practise it.

Michael G

Then I think you and I agree on that. There is no middle ground where we can all unite. It is better that we stay apart, and agree on those things we agree on, and disagree about the rest in a friendly and courteous way.

Mrs. MacGyver

Jakkass wrote:

I wouldn't agree with it (I'm an Anglican), I don't believe that the Pope is infallable and I never will. I believe that the union would be incapable in that respect. Christian unity doesn't need to happen, people should be free to have flexibility in what way they practise their faith. That is the reason why Christianity is so accessible to so many people, because there are so many different ways to practise it.

I don't agree with papal infalibility either as we have one soverign in heaven, i don't think i could ever accept it either. I agree that we should focus on what is common to both though.

Excelsior

All four of us have Jesus in common, right?

I don't mind that Michael believe in transubstantiation while I as a Presbyterian believe in trans-significance. Michael, you may not wish to share communion with me but we can share mission, worship and service together.

I agree that lowest-common-denominator ecumenicism of the form we saw post Vatican II in the World Council of Churches and so on is a sham. As I have said, I think "reunification" is unneeded rhetoric. But my high view of the church as the bride and body of Christ compels me to plead ceaselessly with other Christians wherever I find them (even those silly Baptists! ) to at least pray and worship together.

philologos

yes we can have services together, I never said that wasn't acceptable. What I'm saying is the churches should remain seperate (to maintain a choice of how to practise Christianity), while coming together at key events to show how Christians can maintain relations with eachother in the community. As has been happening in various areas, but needs to be done in more.

Michael G

Jakkass wrote:

What I'm saying is the churches should remain seperate (to maintain a choice of how to practise Christianity), while coming together at key events to show how Christians can maintain relations with eachother in the community.

I don't know that it is about maintaining a choice of how to practise Christianity. Each of us believes that some or all of the others are partly wrong. However I can happily live with the kind of ecumenism you are all describing. I have happily attended Protestant services, and been grateful to be allowed to do so. Choral Evensong on Sundays in Christ Church played an important part in my own return from agonisticism to faith, and I would like to go again — not so easy now, since I no longer live in Dublin. Have any of you attended the Traditional Latin Mass in St Audoen's in High Street?

philologos

Each of the churches have their own particular way of practising the Christian faith, some churches may be rather traditional, while other churches may encourage concerts etc to display their faith as we've seen with some of the new emerging churches. I mean that each of them have their own way of praising God and pleasing Him. I believe that should be welcomed as different peoples personalities prefer different ways of worship. I believe seperation will continue to allow people a choice. Whereas ecumenical services should be encouraged.

Excelsior

I've been to St. Audeons and Dun Laoghaire Michael.

Michael G

Excelsior wrote:

I've been to St. Audeons and Dun Laoghaire Michael.

Good for you, Excelsior. I wonder if you have also been to Masses in the new rite, and what your impressions were of one against the other.