[Article] Row over Cork airport debt coming to a close

MG

As reported on RTE today:

“Row over Cork airport debt coming to a close
The row over who will pay the €220m debt at Cork Airport is approaching an end. The Government has instructed the Dublin Airport Authority to retain €120m of the debt and Cork Airport Authority to take on the remainder.
In July 2003 when the then Transport Minister Seamus Brennan announced plans to break up Aer Rianta and create three independent airport authorities for Dublin, Cork and Shannon, he promised that the Cork Airport Authority would commence business debt free.
At the time, work was just about to begin on a major expansion of facilities in Cork, including a new terminal building, a multi-storey carpark and a new internal roads system. The project ultimately cost €180m.
Since then there's been huge controversy over who would pay the debts at Cork Airport, which currently stand at around €220m.
The Cork Airport Authority pointed to Seamus Brennan's pledge that it would begin operating debt free; but the Dublin Airport Authority argued that under company law Cork's independence would be delayed by years if Dublin was forced to pay the debt.
RTE News has learned that the Government is on the points of imposing a solution which will see the Dublin Airport Authority retain €120m of the debt and the Cork Airport Authority taking on €100m in debts. It's understood that Cork Airport Authority has begun drawing up a business plan based on having debts of €100m.”

Seems strange to say that the row is coming to a close, wonder where this spin came from. Listening to Simon Coveney on the radio this morning, it sounded like this “resolution” was only a new stage in the row.

Sounds like the North County Dublin election hopefuls have make some noise. A sad day for competition and for the consumers of Ireland.

MLM

An airport the size of Dublin can easily handle 220 million euro of debt, particularily as they are selling off the hotel chain. But 100 million euro of debt will cripple an airport the size of Cork. I hope the people of Cork have the sense to tell Fianna Fail where to go in the upcoming election.

Schuhart

Examiner has coverage here. I’m not sure if this is the right decision, notwithstanding the need to invest in Dublin Airport which, in fairness, has been allowed to run into a brick wall before any sign of action.

I take it with Cork that either the Government can inject capital on a commercial basis, if there’s a case, or on a non-commercial basis if it can be justified on some basis consistent with state aid rules. The idea that the only solution is stuffing every passenger passing through Dublin with the cost. There are quite rational reasons for not lumbering Dublin with the debt, and if memory serves losses on the hotel chain was yet another draw on Dublin’s resources historically so the idea that Dublin is on the receiving end of some bonanza by its sale looks questionable.

But the real bizarre question is Shannon. They got a terminal they don’t need, a payroll packed to the gills and a rule that forces every second transatlantic passenger through their door regardless of whether they want to, and regardless of that same policy choking the development of air services to the US (not as if it’s a large market or anything).

How do they get away with it?

FlutterinBantam

Schuhart wrote:

Examiner has coverage here. I’m not sure if this is the right decision, notwithstanding the need to invest in Dublin Airport which, in fairness, has been allowed to run into a brick wall before any sign of action.

I take it with Cork that either the Government can inject capital on a commercial basis, if there’s a case, or on a non-commercial basis if it can be justified on some basis consistent with state aid rules. The idea that the only solution is stuffing every passenger passing through Dublin with the cost. There are quite rational reasons for not lumbering Dublin with the debt, and if memory serves losses on the hotel chain was yet another draw on Dublin’s resources historically so the idea that Dublin is on the receiving end of some bonanza by its sale looks questionable.

[HTML][/HTML]But the real bizarre question is Shannon. They got a terminal they don’t need, a payroll packed to the gills and a rule that forces every second transatlantic passenger through their door regardless of whether they want to, and regardless of that same policy choking the development of air services to the US (not as if it’s a large market or anything).

How do they get away with it?

Heh heh..welcome to semi state philosophy my man...You see, some absolute stupid dolt in Govt. gave these guys a gaurentee that there woud be no redundancies in Dublin/Shannon/Cork if they agreed to split up Aer rianta into three seperate companies. Now the situation is that Snn is vastly over staffed and the dudes down there know they have the Company and Govt. over a barrell!.So they wont stir until they exact the last cent of TAXPAYERSmoney . No sir, they will clock in every day,doss around, chew the fat and hold any energies they have for their other jobs,like farming ,taxis, various nixers around the place.

Thats the way she works in the semi states son.

Watch this space!!!

dowlingm

MLM - DUB will have 120m of ORK's debt, it's own debt, and presumably a similar amount to ORK of SNN's debt. How is DUB runway 10R/28L going to be paid for?

MICKEYG

MLM wrote:

An airport the size of Dublin can easily handle 220 million euro of debt, particularily as they are selling off the hotel chain. But 100 million euro of debt will cripple an airport the size of Cork. I hope the people of Cork have the sense to tell Fianna Fail where to go in the upcoming election.

Why dont we pay for another new termninal for VCork????
This is ridiculous. Each airport should get its own debt and should be let sink or swim. Allowing a company to get into debt when they know they will not need to pay for it is a recipe for disaster.

As for the SNN boys, looks like the generous offer is gone. They may be forced to take less than they were offered - good for them. When the SNN stopover is gone they will be up the sh*ts and I for one will be delighted.

FlutterinBantam

dowlingm wrote:

MLM - DUB will have 120m of ORK's debt, it's own debt, and presumably a similar amount to ORK of SNN's debt. How is DUB runway 10R/28L going to be paid for?

It won't have to be ..but 10L/28R will have to be paid for.:rolleyes:

Nuttzz

ah the cork boys go on about the "real" capital but want the dubs to bail them out

Victor

dowlingm wrote:

MLM - DUB will have 120m of ORK's debt, it's own debt, and presumably a similar amount to ORK of SNN's debt. How is DUB runway 10R/28L going to be paid for?

DAA will retain the moeny from the hotel sale (€300m?) and still has the foreign operations.

I think its fair to say that DAA saddled Cork with an overdone terminal.

MLM

MICKEYG wrote:

Why dont we pay for another new termninal for VCork????
This is ridiculous. Each airport should get its own debt and should be let sink or swim. Allowing a company to get into debt when they know they will not need to pay for it is a recipe for disaster.

As for the SNN boys, looks like the generous offer is gone. They may be forced to take less than they were offered - good for them. When the SNN stopover is gone they will be up the sh*ts and I for one will be delighted.

Public infrastructure should be payed for by the Government as happened with the previous terminal. It was only when the Government decided to break up Aer Rianta that this mess came about due to certain stipulations regarding company law. The bottom line is that decisions like this are going to affect both Cork and Dublin negatively in the long run. Due to the crippling debt Cork will find it much more difficult to compete for business, business which will have to go elsewhere i.e. Dublin, adding to the overcrowding farce that is a daily occurance at that airport. Sooner or later the CEO's of rich American companies that keep our economy growing, are going to get fed up waiting, at Dublin Airport, on the M50, or wherever, and move operations to a country where governments don't make a balls of simple basic issues like this one. MacDougal's (sorry, it's late and I can't remember how to spell his name) 2.5 billion euro from stamp duty that we don't need anymore because we're all so rich can cover the bill ten times over.

MG

Victor wrote:

DAA will retain the moeny from the hotel sale (€300m?) and still has the foreign operations.

I think its fair to say that DAA saddled Cork with an overdone terminal.

Sensible posting. Now that the terminal is there, the main priority should be to fostercompetition between the airports for the benefit of consumers, not to stifle it.

Schuhart

Victor wrote:

DAA will retain the moeny from the hotel sale (€300m?) and still has the foreign operations.

Is it fair to say that this is not the full picture, as the hotel chain is currently making a loss - presumably why its being sold - and someone has to pay to keep Shannon going, which presumably won't be Cork.

That said, if its true that passenger charges won't cover even half the debt, quite clearly the sense of the investment is questionable.

MLM wrote:

The bottom line is that decisions like this are going to affect both Cork and Dublin negatively in the long run. Due to the crippling debt Cork will find it much more difficult to compete for business, business which will have to go elsewhere i.e. Dublin, adding to the overcrowding farce that is a daily occurance at that airport.

I think this is actually the sensible assessment.

If the investment in Cork is justifiable on commercial grounds, then the Government can presumably just inject capital. If its not, can they not find some justification consistent with state aid rules - which is what they'd do for Knock. In any case, even forcing the DAA to take half the debt is presumably a state aid that needs justification. If a subsidy is justified in principle, then presumably it can come from tax revenue.

On an aside, despite the understandable desire of Cork people to stuff Dublin for entertainment, does it have to be pointed out that Shannon is gobbling up a considerable amount of money for no good reason, that could otherwise presumably reduce the Cork debt. There's plenty of options other than stuffing every passenger travelling through Dublin for no obvious reason.

MICKEYG

MLM wrote:

Public infrastructure should be payed for by the Government as happened with the previous terminal. It was only when the Government decided to break up Aer Rianta that this mess came about due to certain stipulations regarding company law. The bottom line is that decisions like this are going to affect both Cork and Dublin negatively in the long run. Due to the crippling debt Cork will find it much more difficult to compete for business, business which will have to go elsewhere i.e. Dublin, adding to the overcrowding farce that is a daily occurance at that airport. Sooner or later the CEO's of rich American companies that keep our economy growing, are going to get fed up waiting, at Dublin Airport, on the M50, or wherever, and move operations to a country where governments don't make a balls of simple basic issues like this one. MacDougal's (sorry, it's late and I can't remember how to spell his name) 2.5 billion euro from stamp duty that we don't need anymore because we're all so rich can cover the bill ten times over.

So home buyers will pay for the terminal? Cork can well afford the debt. They have the terminal after all. If they want Dublin to have the debt then fine but let Dublin own the terminal as well. Cork will always have an airport, passengers are not going to drive 200 miles to Dublin. The problem here is that Dublin has to pay for everything when it has enough need for the capital on its won to build a terminal that will remove the congestion. You can't have it both ways.

bk

MICKEYG wrote:

So home buyers will pay for the terminal? Cork can well afford the debt. They have the terminal after all. If they want Dublin to have the debt then fine but let Dublin own the terminal as well. Cork will always have an airport, passengers are not going to drive 200 miles to Dublin. The problem here is that Dublin has to pay for everything when it has enough need for the capital on its won to build a terminal that will remove the congestion. You can't have it both ways.

That isn't true, as a Corkonian I can tell you that Cork people frequently drive, fly or get the train to Dublin to get a flight out of Dublin airport. This is because far more flights and destinations are served from Dublin. So yes increasing flights from Cork will reduce usage (and overcrowding) at Dublin.

MG

MICKEYG wrote:

So home buyers will pay for the terminal? Cork can well afford the debt. They have the terminal after all. If they want Dublin to have the debt then fine but let Dublin own the terminal as well. Cork will always have an airport, passengers are not going to drive 200 miles to Dublin. The problem here is that Dublin has to pay for everything when it has enough need for the capital on its won to build a terminal that will remove the congestion. You can't have it both ways.

I think the point Victor made is valid here - it was effectively the DAA who planned and managed the building of the Cork terminal so they can't wash their hands of it especially when they are picking up hundreds of millions from the sale of the hotels.

For me that is reason 1. Reason 2 is that the whole idea of splitting the airorts was to foster competition so giving Cork a level playing field will help it develop into a competitor.

Naturally there is also the issue of that promise......

I really don't think this should be seen as a Cork-Dublin issue (though if it was we could solve the problem by building a Toll bridge at the airport and getting the taxpayer to buy it back!;) )

Schuhart

bk wrote:

So yes increasing flights from Cork will reduce usage (and overcrowding) at Dublin.

Indeed, but that's not where your point needs to end.

On the one hand, I think it is in order for MickeyG to query why Cork is incapable of meeting even half the cost of the terminal. It would seem reasonable that local income should be able to meet at least some of the capital cost.

On the other hand, we have to consider whether the level of business attracted to Cork from Dublin would be such as to make any noticible impact on congestion.

tbh, I think this is really just a side issue - but worth exploring, even if just to eliminate it.

MLM

MICKEYG wrote:

So home buyers will pay for the terminal? Cork can well afford the debt. They have the terminal after all. If they want Dublin to have the debt then fine but let Dublin own the terminal as well. Cork will always have an airport, passengers are not going to drive 200 miles to Dublin. The problem here is that Dublin has to pay for everything when it has enough need for the capital on its won to build a terminal that will remove the congestion. You can't have it both ways.

Well I always thought that the reason we pay tax is to pay for stuff like this. Before Aer Rianta was broken up some people, consultants probably, did a study of each airports commercial viability. Dublin was predicted to turn a healthy profit. Shannon was predicted to be a basket case, and Cork was predicted to have borderline profitabilty in the short to medium term. This did not take into account the terminal debt, which means Cork Airport's future commercial viability is at stake.

jank

Cork can well afford the debt

Can you care to elaborate over this?

FF and the PD's are going to get some hammering in Cork over this and many other local issues.

Schuhart

jank wrote:

Cork can well afford the debt

Can you care to elaborate over this?

I've an open mind on the need for a subsidy in Cork, which might be paid in any number of ways apart from shtumping passengers moving through Dublin. But is the onus on making a case not the other way around?

On the face of it, if a terminal is built you'd expect the first port of call to recoup the cost would be on passengers passing through it. What's the basis of the case for saying that even half the debt is too much?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Schuhart

If we’re really short of €100 million for Cork, can anyone explain why €27 million of it ended up here?

The Government has announced €27m in funding for Ireland West Airport in Knock today.

The announcement Transport Minister Martin Cullen was made under the new Capital Expenditure Grant Scheme for Regional Airports and marks the single largest investment in the history of the airport.

Zoney

Schuhart wrote:

If we’re really short of €100 million for Cork, can anyone explain why €27 million of it ended up here?

Because they'd rather do that than finished upgrading the N17 and N18 quickly, opening the Western Railway Corridor, and linking the Limerick-Ennis line to Shannon Airport.

Shannon Airport has no need to be a basket case - it's location means it can serve a large swathe of the country, were it not for the pathetic transport links: No rail; Road; N18 DC between Limerick and Ennis aside, it's pretty poor after that; N18 north, N17, N69, N21, N20 (after Croom), SRR and N7 not complete yet, and no proper northern link from North Tipp to Clare. Things will be better even just with the completion of the N7 SRR and Lim-Nenagh, but that alone won't be enough. Just to re-enforce the point - the N18 north of Ennis is so bad you could not recommend to someone in Galway to travel via Shannon. Until recently (and for decades) it was even worse until the Ennis bypass opened, and not even so long ago, the Newmarket-on-Fergus bypass.

Oh - and it should be renamed Limerick Shannon Airport so as people internationally even have a hope of figuring out where it is!

It's not like most of the country wouldn't love to avoid the hell-hole that is Dublin Airport. People would be perfectly content to leave that to the eastern quarter of the population if Shannon and Cork had proper transport links to the regions.

And we wouldn't even have so many regional airports (e.g. Knock) if it wasn't for our outrageously bad transport system, which nationwide, will still be describable as that even with the completion of the "inter-urbans" (that phrase meaning of course, just the Dublin-based intercity routes).

Schuhart

Zoney wrote:

And we wouldn't even have so many regional airports (e.g. Knock) if it wasn't for our outrageously bad transport system

I think that suggests that some degree of thinking was behind the dotting of the West with airports. In fairness, large tracts of the country just don't have the potential to amount to much, if by 'much' we mean ready availability of high quality jobs.

The country has no shortage of locations and when you make the case for Shannon having a future if we build transport links to it from everywhere, I can't help thinking of that old line about "we're making a movie. All we need is a camera, actors, a script, a director, money .... "

Galway could offer an amount of synergy if their airport was moved to a location where it could take jets. Would that cost any more than linking Shannon to the rest of the universe? Knock produces an amount of rhetoric to the effect that they want to replicate the whole Shannon industrial zone, notwithstanding their strategic location in the middle of the Gobi desert.

If we're looking for an alternative location to Dublin, the obvious choice is Cork. I've never seen the reason to shtump the country because once upon a time flying boats used to land at Foynes.

Victor

Schuhart wrote:

On the face of it, if a terminal is built you'd expect the first port of call to recoup the cost would be on passengers passing through it. What's the basis of the case for saying that even half the debt is too much?

Sure. Cork Airport agreed to a €35m terminal, but Aer Rianta Technical Consultants (now part of DAA) spent €100m+ on it.

bjd

Victor wrote:

Sure. Cork Airport agreed to a €35m terminal, but Aer Rianta Technical Consultants (now part of DAA) spent €100m+ on it.

and its s**t. No viewing gallery, long walk in the rain when the plane parks, built for 3 million passengers which was exceeded just as it opened so roll on the charter flights in the summer and we'll see what happens

bertie promised there would be no debt - end of story - and that twit M Cullen calling landing Cork with 100m overspend caused by dublin the "sale of the century" just indicates the contempt FF hold for Cork - and dont forget when it comes to votes, Ned o Keefe, Noel O FLynn and Michael Martin publicly stated they thought it was RIGHT that FF break their promise to leave the airport with 100m of debt

Schuhart

Victor wrote:

Sure. Cork Airport agreed to a €35m terminal, but Aer Rianta Technical Consultants (now part of DAA) spent €100m+ on it.

I’m open to reason, but hopefully you’ll understand this needs more explaining.

For example what exactly do you mean by ‘Cork Airport’ agreeing to a €35 million terminal. If this was a decision made when it was all Aer Rianta, do you mean local management said €35 million or is this a reference to the CAA board saying something - and does that €35 million actually relate to some concrete plan or is it just a ‘we’ll give you €35 million for it’ without any particular relationship to the cost of what was delivered.

I suppose what causes me to wonder is the dim memory of either CAA and/or Cork based public representatives complaining that the terminal didn’t have enough airbridges – which doesn’t sound like concern at the cost. Also, you’ll appreciate the figure of an estimate of €35 million being increased to €100 million doesn’t seem to actually relate to what’s happened – which seems to be that a couple of hundred million was spent, most of which will be paid by DAA.

As I said, I am open to reason on this point. In terms of a solution, I think there needs to be some link draw between the possible need to inject €100 million into Cork airport and the allocation of nearly that amount to Knock and other regional airports, really just to be pissed against the wind. Collectively, those airports simply don’t have the potential to contribute meaningfully to national development. Cork and Dublin do, and it’s a shame to see a situation allowed to emerge that snookers both of them.

MG

Schuhart wrote:

If we’re really short of €100 million for Cork, can anyone explain why €27 million of it ended up here?

Guessing, but as it's part of the BMW region, it may be entitled to direct state aid under EU rules where Cork and Dublin would not be.

Zoney

Schuhart wrote:

The country has no shortage of locations and when you make the case for Shannon having a future if we build transport links to it from everywhere, I can't help thinking of that old line about "we're making a movie. All we need is a camera, actors, a script, a director, money .... "

Nonsense. These are national primary roads (or secondary in the case of the N69) that need to be upgraded anyway! The Western railway corridor is to be reopened anyway (at least the intercity line between Limerick and Galway). Shannon Airport, Limerick (whatever about it being a small city, it is one and an economic centre), and some measure of infrastructure (DCs on N18, N19, and soon the N7), already exist - making the "other locations" argument moot.

My point is more that it would have been a far better means of supporting the airport than pumping money in directly (and indeed about the only option today). It can't even be regarded as just state support for the airport, because it is merely upgrading transport links that are major even without the airport. It would nevertheless increase the cachement area, simple as that. End result, airport is pretty much self-sufficient, and Limerick and the Midwest are repositioned as a vital regional economic hub (the kind of thing the NSS was supposed to deliver).

This Atlantic Corridor just can't happen fast enough - business between Galway, Limerick and Cork, three cities quite near to each other really, is absurdly curtailed by the poor transport links. Have you seen the road through Gort or Buttevant? If you've experienced the worst of the N9 Dub-Waterford you'll know what this is like.

bill_ashmount

Schuhart wrote:

In fairness, large tracts of the country just don't have the potential to amount to much, if by 'much' we mean ready availability of high quality jobs.

This is the attitude that continues to see Dublin get more congested, spreadout and choked every year.

Large tracts of the country DO have the potential to amount to much if attitudes change. High quality jobs do not all have to be based in Dublin. Skilled people would be quite willing to move to other areas. It would benefit the whole of the country and ultimately would improve the lives of people in Dublin as well.

Schuhart

Zoney wrote:

Shannon Airport has no need to be a basket case

Clearly Limerick City has a role to play in regional development. It would strike me that if Shannon has a role to play, it’s in that context. But I don’t see the point of trying to re-engineer reality just so we can keep everyone’s cousin on an expensive workfare scheme. We’ve already allowed Shannon to isolate us from a potentially lucrative market because of the SIBNAL mindset (“Shannon – Ireland’s Barrier to the North Atlantic”). If the airport has a point, when does anybody expect this will become apparent?

MG wrote:

Guessing, but as it's part of the BMW region, it may be entitled to direct state aid under EU rules where Cork and Dublin would not be.

But Waterford Airport seems to get €22.3 million out of this fund, which suggests that being in the BMW Region is not essential (presumably, particularly if you’ve a Minister responsible for the relevant portfolio). I’m, as always, open to reason, but I don’t see why the issue isn’t about Cork Airport simply getting a cash injection either as a commercial investment by the State or a subsidy justified on whatever basis Waterford got its money.

bill_ashmount wrote:

This is the attitude that continues to see Dublin get more congested, spreadout and choked every year.

Large tracts of the country DO have the potential to amount to much if attitudes change. High quality jobs do not all have to be based in Dublin. Skilled people would be quite willing to move to other areas. It would benefit the whole of the country and ultimately would improve the lives of people in Dublin as well.

In fairness, you are missing the point and illustrating the mindset that actually causes the problem. I think an amount of the problem comes from seeing things in terms to diverting stuff from Dublin, rather than trying to cultivate what makes Dublin attractive in a couple of other locations.

That key feature – as identified in the Spatial Strategy – is scale. There simply is no point in seeing every two bit town as a potential development centre. That mindset, by default, creates a situation where jobs tend to concentrate in Dublin. If we concentrated on a small number of concentrations in the regions, we might notice a difference. That involves accepting large tracts of the country just don't have the potential to amount to much, if by 'much' we mean ready availability of high quality jobs, exactly as I have said.

Bards

from http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0227/cso.html

New figures from the Central Statistics Office show that the southeast was

the poorest region in the country in 2004.

The report, which measures disposable income per person in the State's eight regions, found that the southeast was 8.8% below the State average.

The Dublin region had the highest income per person, at almost 12% above the average.

A county breakdown showed that only Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Kildare had an income per person above the State average.

The lowest county figure was for Donegal where average disposable incomes were almost 15% below the average.

=====================================================
The S.E is far worse off than the BMW region and yet BMW have two large Cities in Galway & Limerick with 2 Universities, 2 International airports & 1 regional, (Knock got more than Waterford from the latest grant funding) All other regional airports get PSO money too except Waterford explain to me how that is fair

and yet nearly everyone on here harps on about how well waterford is doing... It is only in the last 5 yearts since we got cabinet representation that we are catching up... yes catching up with our peer cities.. not surpassing... so please less of the "Everything is going to Waterford"

Zoney

Schuhart wrote:

We’ve already allowed Shannon to isolate us from a potentially lucrative market because of the SIBNAL mindset (“Shannon – Ireland’s Barrier to the North Atlantic”).

Yes, this hasn't been sensible. How can one justify this without even having decent transport links so people from a large cachement area can get to the Airport?

Until 2001 or so, the only remotely sensible road in or around Limerick (and between there and Galway) was the N18 between the city and Shannon. That's it. Total cachement area was realistically not much more than Limerick - which is pop. of what? 100,000? North Tipp and the Midlands should be able to access the airport via N52 and N7 (again, current projects Limk-Nenagh and Limk SRR will fix a lot of this). People in Cork should have a choice between Cork or Shannon - with decent roads (completion of Limerick Southern Ring Road , which is happening, and Croom-Mallow which is on the long finger) Shannon would be 2 hours away at most.

Things will be better for Shannon even just in a couple of years with the completion of Limerick Southern Ring Road and Limerick-Nenagh dual carriageways, and not long after, Ennis-Athenry. But it could well be too little too late. Considering the survival of the airport thus far, imagine if it had had the expanded cachement area from the beginning? It wouldn't have needed anything like the amount of State support. The Midwest would be in far less danger of regressing to a basketcase region too if it had had decent transport links at an earlier stage.

It's absurd people worrying about the cost to the whole country of upgrading the "Atlantic Corridor" road and rail. This forgets that in the longer term there will be less need to support those regions and indeed they will be contributing more to the national economy. Imagine if Cork and Galway were little more than 2hrs30 from each other with Limerick and Shannon inbetween. It'd make far more of a difference than the "inter urbans" to Dublin, I'll tell you that.

Schuhart

Zoney wrote:

People in Cork should have a choice between Cork or Shannon

Just a thought - what happens if Limerick people, faced with the same choice, decided to give their business to Cork? As it stands, its seems to have more passengers than Shannon (i.e. comparing to real Shannon passengers, and not hijack victims).

Zoney wrote:

It's absurd people worrying about the cost to the whole country of upgrading the "Atlantic Corridor" road and rail.

Its never absurd to worry about cost, but what is absurd is the tolerance for chucking money at something just because its there. That said, clearly decent links between the regional cities are necessary. I don't think anyone has a particular problem with links between Cork/Limerick/Galway. Its when that starts getting extended around until the 'corridor' turns into a fantastic journey all around the island for no apparent reason other than to convince people in Letterkenny that our piles are bleeding for them.

I can recall reading threads here about the Western Rail Corridor, most of the cost of which relates to relaying a tramway between (I think) Claremorris and Collooney. But most of the people arguing in favour of the concept were, like yourself, talking about Limerick and Cork.

Zoney

Schuhart wrote:

what happens if Limerick people, faced with the same choice, decided to give their business to Cork?

I think it would be more a case of giving business to Cork at the expense of Dublin.

That said, based on my two most recent experiences, I might well consider greater inconvenience in getting to Cork even with current transport links, because Dublin Airport was hell. Talk about dysfunctional.

merlante

Schuhart wrote:

But Waterford Airport seems to get ¬22.3 million out of this fund, which suggests that being in the BMW Region is not essential (presumably, particularly if you’ve a Minister responsible for the relevant portfolio).

The South East region is in a worse state than the BMW region as has been pointed out. The BMW region only exists to wrangle funds out of the EU anyway. If it were geographically feasible (and if the government really wanted to chance its arm), the SE would have been lumped in here too.

The recent funding awarded to Waterford Airport is once off capital funding that will upgrade facilities that haven't been touched in decades. The airport runway will be extended in order to cater for medium haul flights. With this investment in facilities, the airport is expected to achieve passenger numbers in excess of 300,000 within a decade (as other airports are achieving). Without it, Waterford Airport would not be able to fully serve the region.

This is by far the biggest grant that Waterford Airport has ever seen. It will not be happening again any time soon. I do not think or expect that regional airports such as Waterford are in receipt of funds that should be reserved for the international airports of Dublin, Cork or Shannon. These airports receive real funding on an ongoing basis, as they should.

I am continually amazed at how much attention every penny spent in Waterford receives, when other cities and regions seem to receive a steady flow of investment on a continuous basis without so much as an eyebrow being raised.

If people think that Waterford is being 'spoiled' with this 'cash from the minister' they might want to head down to Waterford Airport and take a look at the facilities themselves and then tell us that the investment is not justified!

Schuhart

Zoney wrote:

I think it would be more a case of giving business to Cork at the expense of Dublin.

But isn’t that a little ostrich like? If you envisage Cork people travelling to Shannon – effectively a smaller airport – why not the idea of services consolidating in Cork? And is the idea of an airport putting, say, 5 million passengers per year be a more convincing alternative to Dublin’s 20+ million than two airports – one with 3 million passengers, and the other with maybe 2 million (real) passengers?

merlante wrote:

I am continually amazed at how much attention every penny spent in Waterford receives, when other cities and regions seem to receive a steady flow of investment on a continuous basis without so much as an eyebrow being raised.

I’m mainly raising it here to point out that being in the BMW region does not seem to be a requirement for funding, if the political will is there. However, your post sparked a few more thoughts.

merlante wrote:

I do not think or expect that regional airports such as Waterford are in receipt of funds that should be reserved for the international airports of Dublin, Cork or Shannon. These airports receive real funding on an ongoing basis, as they should.

The point is, of course, where is this real ongoing funding of which you speak? I’m not commenting one way or the other on the value of this investment in Waterford. But compare it pro rata to Cork (taking your figure of 300,000 pa and comparing it to Cork’s 3 million). This is the equivalent of Cork getting a cash grant of €200 million – basically enough to get its new terminal for free, without any need to hamstring the DAA with a debt. Compare it to Dublin, and consider the references you'll see frequently to €1 billion being invested there as if those resources were being raised by taxing farmers in Mayo rather than by charging the people using the facility. The Waterford investment, pro rata, would be the rough equivalent of the State giving the DAA a gift of €2 billion – more investment than they would know what to do with, and no need to persuade any regulator of the need to raise passenger charges if they want to both invest in Dublin, pay for new terminals in Cork and Shannon and subsidise Shannon.

When you consider it in these terms, I think its clear that terms about the ‘generous’ treatment afforded to Dublin or any other city are massively misplaced. Large sounding numbers like ‘€600 million for Luas’ are allowed to cloak the chronic underinvestment Dublin in particular. I honestly can’t understand why reality isn’t allowed to surface more frequently. For example, why is anyone allowed to say Knock Airport is a success and not reflect on its utter meaninglessness in the context of regional development? Does public discussion always have to be as superficial as a PR handout?

merlante

Schuhart wrote:

The point is, of course, where is this real ongoing funding of which you speak? I’m not commenting one way or the other on the value of this investment in Waterford. But compare it pro rata to Cork (taking your figure of 300,000 pa and comparing it to Cork’s 3 million). This is the equivalent of Cork getting a cash grant of €200 million – basically enough to get its new terminal for free, without any need to hamstring the DAA with a debt.

Maybe it is an unusually large investment package in terms of a regional airport to be made in one go, however, averaged over the past 20 years and over the years that are to come, it's not all that much.

I am sure that if you compared the Cork Airport of 20 years ago and the Waterford Airport of 20 years ago to their modern counterparts it would be clear that Cork has been heavily prioritised for investment. I have no problem with this if Cork is providing the function of one of the state's main/international airports. But Waterford Airport needs a serious upgrade, and it is only correct that it is receiving it.

You have to understand exactly how little funding Waterford Airport received up until recently. A few years ago it was on the verge of closure because the facilities were so poor (and the investment non-existent) that it struggled to facilitate/attract airlines. Now the situation is being rectified, and passenger numbers are increasingly strongly year on year, proving that the airport is far from a white elephant.

Schuhart wrote:

Compare it to Dublin, and consider the references you'll see frequently to €1 billion being invested there as if those resources were being raised by taxing farmers in Mayo rather than by charging the people using the facility. The Waterford investment, pro rata, would be the rough equivalent of the State giving the DAA a gift of €2 billion – more investment than they would know what to do with, and no need to persuade any regulator of the need to raise passenger charges if they want to both invest in Dublin, pay for new terminals in Cork and Shannon and subsidise Shannon.

Dublin Airport has massive congestion problems, but it is far from a third world airport, which is where Waterford is coming from. Nobody is saying that Waterford should be built as a major state airport, but the facilities that are there should be as modern as any other.

Schuhart wrote:

When you consider it in these terms, I think its clear that terms about the ‘generous’ treatment afforded to Dublin or any other city are massively misplaced. Large sounding numbers like ‘€600 million for Luas’ are allowed to cloak the chronic underinvestment Dublin in particular. I honestly can’t understand why reality isn’t allowed to surface more frequently. For example, why is anyone allowed to say Knock Airport is a success and not reflect on its utter meaninglessness in the context of regional development? Does public discussion always have to be as superficial as a PR handout?

Knock Airport always seemed like a joke to me. Waterford Airport has a city nearby, and a large populous region of 450,000 people. Big difference.

Still I take your point about Dublin, but I don't worry about Dublin Airport. It's problems will be sorted -- the media will see to it.

Zoney

Schuhart wrote:

But isn’t that a little ostrich like? If you envisage Cork people travelling to Shannon – effectively a smaller airport – why not the idea of services consolidating in Cork? And is the idea of an airport putting, say, 5 million passengers per year be a more convincing alternative to Dublin’s 20+ million than two airports – one with 3 million passengers, and the other with maybe 2 million (real) passengers?

How would you consolidate services in Cork? Do you seriously envisage people from Galway and the west, Clare, North Tipp, and Limerick all having just two alternatives of Dublin or Cork? With regard to Galway and the West, would you recommend Knock instead? If we're cutting back on airports, would it seriously make sense to keep Knock and lose Shannon? The facilities at Shannon could cater for vast amounts of traffic. I'm sure people here could rant about that, but it would serve no purpose; the fact is that Shannon is over-specified and should be used rather than moaned about. It can be far far better utilised just by putting in place transport links that are needed *anyway*!

dowlingm

The problem with Waterford Airport is its location - if it had been built NE of Waterford near the Rosslare/New Ross road and rail links it might have done better previously instead of a boreen - it might have kept the rail link to New Ross open perhaps!

Now that Waterford's roads are improving and the runway will take a B737/A320 maybe so will its prospects.

Schuhart

Zoney wrote:

Do you seriously envisage people from Galway and the west, Clare, North Tipp, and Limerick all having just two alternatives of Dublin or Cork?

I'd leave that to Darwin. I think the point is just that Shannon seems bereft of a case, and we're hardly short of potential airport locations. Yes, its a crying shame that money was spent there for no obvious reason and no apparent hope of any return. I suppose I just don't see a need to throw good money after bad.

In fairness, if the workforce in Shannon was showing more than simply a desire to keep its collective snout in the trough without any consideration for the cost on the rest of us then the case might have a more fertile context. But, to be honest, people in the West do need to ask themselves how they allowed things to come to a pass when their largest airports are at Shannon and Knock.

With regard to Galway and the West, would you recommend Knock instead?

I wouldn't recommend Knock, but equally I've never understood what local politics stood in the way of Galway Airport taking up that offer to move to a site where they could develop. Consider Galway with a proper airport vs a Limerick chained to Shannon. Sit back, and watch gravity create a single concentration on the West coast - making an irrelevance of all that 'corridor' nonsense.

merlante

dowlingm wrote:

The problem with Waterford Airport is its location - if it had been built NE of Waterford near the Rosslare/New Ross road and rail links it might have done better previously instead of a boreen - it might have kept the rail link to New Ross open perhaps!

Now that Waterford's roads are improving and the runway will take a B737/A320 maybe so will its prospects.

Indeed, although the real problem has been a complete lack of investment down through the years. Now with the M9, N25 improvements, bypass, outer ring road, and airport road upgrade, the access will be quite good, especially when compared with Dublin.

For years we had an airport with inadequate facilities, sitting in the middle of nowhere on a country road. There is no point in having an airport if the facilities are poor, there is no prospect of expansion and the access is terrible.

Victor

Last time I checked, this thread was called "Row over Cork airport debt coming to a close"

Bards wrote:

The S.E is far worse off than the BMW region and yet BMW have two large Cities in Galway & Limerick with 2 Universities, 2 International airports & 1 regional

Limerick isn't in the BMW region and neither is Shannon.

Schuhart

Victor wrote:

Limerick isn't in the BMW region and neither is Shannon.

He’s right, you know. Nor is Kerry – although Farranfore is getting €17.7 million. Which means heading on for half of this €86 million is being spent outside of the BMW region.

I’m the most reasonable of people when I make an effort. Can anyone now explain why, in principle, Cork Airport cannot be given a direct State investment/grant of €100 million seeing as how regional airports which, combined, are of less national significance have been given an allocation of the same ballpark amount?

Calina

You can be absolutely certain that someone will find away of saying "Europe won't allow it".

merlante

Schuhart wrote:

He’s right, you know. Nor is Kerry – although Farranfore is getting €17.7 million. Which means heading on for half of this €86 million is being spent outside of the BMW region.

I’m the most reasonable of people when I make an effort. Can anyone now explain why, in principle, Cork Airport cannot be given a direct State investment/grant of €100 million seeing as how regional airports which, combined, are of less national significance have been given an allocation of the same ballpark amount?

If only politics in this country was so simple. :cool:

Is it not the case, though, that this money, or some of it, is coming from Europe and has been designated for regional airports?

It may well also be the case that the government want to chasten Cork Airport with a debt in order to compel it to become more efficient and financially responsible. It is not always the best idea to throw money at a company that is in debt. In any case, I'd say that as soon as Cork starts to make inroads into the debt, the government will clear the balance at some point.

Also, granting funding to clear a debt is a more questionable use of public funds that granting funding for capital investment. Clearing a debt may or may not lead to Cork's continued expansion and growth, building out straight forward facilities in regional airports -- up to a point that is consistent with the role of regional airports -- invariably will lead to expansion and growth.

Zoney

If Cork can't be given money directly, why not do the same thing I'm suggesting for Shannon? Just provide it with more passengers by the simple option of providing transport links that should be there anyway.

In the most extreme case, provide light rail from the city centre to the airport, and ensure all sides of the city and outlying areas can easily access the city centre using public transport. The latter should already be the case (but isn't).

In the long term this would do a lot more good than handing €100 million to the airport directly, even were such a thing permissable. It would benefit all manner of business in the area. €100 million would surely buy a fair bit of transport.

Schuhart

merlante wrote:

Is it not the case, though, that this money, or some of it, is coming from Europe and has been designated for regional airports?

Fine, then lets start calling Cork a 'regional' airport. Knock styles itself as an 'international' airport whenever it fancies, but it doesn't stop it getting a fat cheque.

merlante wrote:

Also, granting funding to clear a debt is a more questionable use of public funds that granting funding for capital investment.

I think you need to reflect on this statement. The debt was incurred because capital investment was funded by borrowing money rather than by Government injecting capital. My understanding is that the Government has a perfect right to own companies and make commercial investments in them - we're members of the EU, not the USSR. All that's blocked under EU rules, as I understand it, is support that distorts markets - say, chucking money at Knock even though it should never have been built.

Zoney wrote:

If Cork can't be given money directly, why not do the same thing I'm suggesting for Shannon? Just provide it with more passengers by the simple option of providing transport links that should be there anyway.

I've no problem if, given €100 million, the CAA said 'actually, the best thing we could do with that money is build a Luas from here to the city centre'. But I doubt that's the case. Has anyone raised a particular problem with access to the airport? (Subject to the usual old ****e of locations for infrastructure usually being decided on any basis other than where people might actually need it.)

Zoney wrote:

€100 million would surely buy a fair bit of transport.

I suppose, looking on it slightly differently, we've already collectively spent €100 million on a lump of transport in the shape of half a new Cork terminal. The question is how to pay for it, while considering the national implications of the most likely candidate as alternative growth centre to Dublin being hamstrung with a debt laden airport vs the prospect of financially screwing our main national airport through which the overwhelming bulk of passengers to our fair island pass. Apologies on the long sentence, but hopefully the point is clear. We seem (many of us) comfortable with the idea of pissing the same amount of money away on regional airports, but struggle at the thought of using a similar amount of money where it might do some good.

Put another way, why not leave Knock and Farranfore blowing in the wind and spend the money yielded on public transport in Cork and/or Limerick? Why the easy acceptance of direct State grants for Sligo Airport, and the reluctance about Cork?

bjd

its the DAA the lumped Cork with 100m for the terminal - anyself respecting commercial manager would have been able to vastly reduce costs on that terminal project, there was no need at all for that spend. Its poor management and all the FF'rs are now changing their tune from what Seamus Brennan said, i.e. that the airport would be debt free. If only the Bert would call a snap election. I dont even WANT to vote for Simon Coveney seeing as he had the cheek to get voted into Europe and now hoovers up 2 salaries but I damned well wont be voting for FF.

merlante

Schuhart wrote:

I think you need to reflect on this statement. The debt was incurred because capital investment was funded by borrowing money rather than by Government injecting capital.

If Waterford Airport racked up, say, a 10 million euro debt., building facilities it felt it needed, I wouldn't automatically expect the government to bail it out. (The current spend being unprecedented and unlikely to be repeated.)

Should Cork have even been developed as an International Airport, given there was already one at Shannon? It's all fine saying that Cork Airport is there now and doing well, but it seems that it hasn't been paid for.

As for Knock, it can call itself whatever it wants, and good luck to it, but under no circumstances should it receive a level of investment on a par with Cork or Shannon. Three international airports is enough. Knock is a regional airport.

Hotblack Desiato

bjd wrote:

its the DAA the lumped Cork with 100m for the terminal - anyself respecting commercial manager would have been able to vastly reduce costs on that terminal project, there was no need at all for that spend.

So maybe if Cork were managing it from the start knowing that there'd be only limited funding available from Dublin, there would have been a better outcome for all concerned.

It's pretty hard from where I'm standing to justify the idea of Cork getting a 'free' facility off the backs of the passengers going through the black hole of Calcutta a.k.a. DUB. If State investment in Cork can be justified on regional aid grounds then by all means go for it, let the taxpayer in general pay for it then, rather than asking DUB passengers to pay more for the privilege of using inadequate facilities so that some other airport can be upgraded.

Its poor management and all the FF'rs are now changing their tune from what Seamus Brennan said, i.e. that the airport would be debt free.

Like every other of the frequent announcements made by Brennan in Transport, it was gobsh*te. Surely he knew, or should have known, that huge investment was needed in Dublin.

If only the Bert would call a snap election.

You make it sound like 3 years away, not 3 months. Any issue of burning local importance can be kept alive for 3 months, surely.

I dont even WANT to vote for Simon Coveney seeing as he had the cheek to get voted into Europe and now hoovers up 2 salaries but I damned well wont be voting for FF.

A topic for Politics, but FG's abuse of the dual mandate rather dents their credibility as a 'more ethical than FF' (c'mon guys, how hard can that be?) party.

Schuhart

bjd wrote:

its the DAA the lumped Cork with 100m for the terminal

The main comment I can recall from Cork based public representatives was about insufficient air bridges, which does seem to undermine that ‘arms length’ approach to the issue. I know Victor has mentioned something about €35 million, but I’m not clear what that relates to exactly – although I am open to any clarification.

merlante wrote:

If Waterford Airport racked up, say, a 10 million euro debt., building facilities it felt it needed, I wouldn't automatically expect the government to bail it out.

Indeed, but you’ll understand that the situation seems to be less about unauthorised expenditure and more about separating the debt from the asset that would be expected to pay for it. You seemed to be drawing a distinction between capital expenditure and debt, which doesn’t apply in this case as what is at stake is simply capital expenditure. Its Shannon that has the problem with meetings its day to day costs.

merlante wrote:

Should Cork have even been developed as an International Airport, given there was already one at Shannon?

Given that Cork handles more real passengers, I think the question makes more sense the other way. Does Shannon have any role, given the existence of Cork? Why have an airport as some kind of commemoration of the days when jets could barely get across the Atlantic?

ninja900 wrote:

If State investment in Cork can be justified on regional aid grounds then by all means go for it, let the taxpayer in general pay for it then, rather than asking DUB passengers to pay more for the privilege of using inadequate facilities so that some other airport can be upgraded.

Spot on. Its simply ludicrous to have the fate of Dublin and Cork Airports linked in this way while much the same money is pissed away for no return on regional airports.

ninja900 wrote:

Like every other of the frequent announcements made by Brennan in Transport, it was gobsh*te. Surely he knew, or should have known, that huge investment was needed in Dublin.

Absolutely, and most apt that the chickens are coming home to roost right now.