IPSA & Club Guns

Bananaman

Folks,

I mentioned in a previous thread that I was refused my IPSA membership, even though I have completed my IPSC competion license course and passed the exam, due to the fact that I do not own a firearm.

My main reason for this was, for a long time, I didn't know what I wanted so I used loads of club guns until I decided what I liked.

Then I had hassle getting permission to install a safe as I rent my house.

Now that that is done I will have to go all the rigmarole and possibly months until a refusal for no reason and repeat ad infinitum to get my FAC.

And then finally I can re-apply to get my membership and hopefully not have to tick another box somewhere I dunno about.

I digress.

I was speaking to someone over the weekend who is in the same boat as me - no FAC, has the competion license but was refused IPSA membership.

I have two questions.

I am not looking for anyone to expose any details about themselves but just wondering if I am alone in the world in this respect - coz I think not

1) Are a lot of people in this boat i.e. is the IPSA picky about who it lets in?

I've checked their website to see if they have a calendar to see when their AGM is as I would be interested in hearing what they do, where they do it and who they do it for. No dice - they don't publish any dates

2) The IPSA membership application form contains a section to enter your PULSE number but also has a box for "Not in Pulse" - which I ticked.
This seems to be the reason that I was refused membership - if so I have to wonder why it is there.

Has anyone else out there without a PULSE number been afforded membership of this lofty organisation?



And just an aside - I noted, with some worry I might add, this little gem in their mission statement

"It is our intention to begin sending suitably qualified shooters to international competition in the very near future."

Should that not say something like

"It is our intention to begin supporting Irish IPSC qualified shooters at international competition in the very near future."

les45

Dear Mr Bananaman .

Many thanks for your most recent enquiry in relation to membership of the IPSA . I note in particular your intention to compete in competitions both here on the Island of Ireland and abroad . Indeed this is our principal objective , to send teams abroad to represent Ireland in International Competitions . Can you advise how you intend to compete at these competitions ! , what firearm would you take to France if you were selected to Shoot as part of the Irish Standard or Production Team ! . What firearm you would use to take part in the various selection shoots planned for the next few months throughout Ireland ?. The IPSA is not a club, there are many first class clubs out there , Hilltop have a first class facility with I understand club guns available to their members . And if you decide to continue in the sport and you are in posession of a FAC for the sporting firearm you intend to use in any of the dynamic shooting sports , then the association would be delighted to receive your application . The sport of Dynamic pistol is in its infanacy , our Range Officers have taken their IROA Level 1 exams , we have two Instructors assessors that have put in long hours and many miles away from their families to gain the necessary qualifications to teach and assess students in Dynamic Pistol. I cant speak for any of the other shooting organisations but I assume when the ICPSA send a team abroad or to Northern Ireland each member must be in posession of a FAC for their shotgun , the PP1500 guys that shot in Austria the same . We are a competitive association and to compete you must have the necessary tools to do the job , if we open the membership to all comers with no set criteria for membership then we are leaving the association , its members and IPSC open to attack . The posession of a FAC is a clear demonstration to us and to the Dept Of Justice and the Gardai that our members are serious about their sport , I make no apologies as to the current rules . If and when our membership decides to change this then you will be the first to know . Our AGM will be in April in the Tullamore Court Hotel .

John FitzGerald RD IPSA.

Bananaman

John,

Thanks for the update.

My reason for posting these questions was the quite alarming (and varied) amount of time and frustration being experienced by people as part of the FAC application process - my main concern was that I could be in a limbo situation for an indefinite period of time whereby I could not compete in an IPSA sanctioned event, in my own club, until that process is complete.

This seemed somewhat unfair to me seeing as I have done, in my own opinion, all that is necessary for me to compete in an IPSC event, in my own club and have begun steps to be capable of competing in same outside of my club.

I agree with your point in that in order to travel, to another club or to another region, I would, obviously, require an FAC which is why I have begun the process.

I am really looking forward to the further development of Practical shooting sports in Ireland, not simply handgun but also shotgun and rifle.
I am hooked on the sport of practical pistol and simply want to ensure my ability to train, progress and compete as much as possible to the point where
I am of a standard to compete at a higher level.

I am under no illusions that I would be of a standard to attend this years shoot in France. I have experienced the facilities and a couple of events in Hilltop and agree that they are first class. My own aim is to attend as many local shoots as possible, when feasible I intend to enter as many Irish shoots as possible to see what the standard of Irish shooters is - I only have experience of people who have attended Hilltop and was very impressed.
I can only aspire to the standard of some of the people I have watched.
If with experience I feel I can seriously compete in that group then I would look further afield. I am looking forward to the further development of the facilities on that and other sites around the country.

Once my FAC has come through I will re-apply to the IPSA.

B'Man

Bananaman

John,

If possible, I would appreciate it a motion could be tabled at you next AGM to have IPSA recognise for membership people such as myself who do not have an FAC.

There are a number of reasons that a person may not have an FAC, not least of which is that they simply do not want to own a firearm. I agree with your earlier point that owning e.g. a 9mm pistol is a clear statment of intent to take a sport seriously. For some people, this may simply not be feasible e.g. someone who has teenage kids and does not want to have a firearm in their house, safe or no safe.

I assume we do not want to go down the road of people storing their own firearms in a club as lets face it why can't we all do that!!!

If these people are members of a facility which can furnish them with club issued firearms for the purpose of attending a competiton license course or a competiiton on the site of that facility I feel that those people should not be discrimintated against.

If your membership do not agree with me then so be it.

B'Man.

les45

The AGM will give the members a chance to debate and vote on this proposal . I look forward to receiving your application in due course.

John

macnas

I might table a motion myself, that the IPSA refuse to accept as members those applicants of a 'go off half cocked' disposition.

vlmaxis

macnas wrote:

I might table a motion myself, that the IPSA refuse to accept as members those applicants of a 'go off half cocked' disposition.

Is this another taste of elitism in the Tullamore area?:mad:

macnas

You'll have to explain that a little further vl, I'm not getting your point.

Sparks

And just to try to forestall anything nasty, can we keep this civil?

vlmaxis

macnas wrote:

You'll have to explain that a little further vl, I'm not getting your point.

I dont get nasty Sparks, I just get mad.
My point Macnas is this, as soon as someone has a problem with an organisation, there is allways someone there who can't stand anyone rocking the the boat. Bananaman has made a valid point and if thats a 'go off half cocked' disposition, then thats sad.

vlmaxis

les45 wrote:

Dear Mr Bananaman .

Many thanks for your most recent enquiry in relation to membership of the IPSA . I note in particular your intention to compete in competitions both here on the Island of Ireland and abroad . Indeed this is our principal objective , to send teams abroad to represent Ireland in International Competitions . Can you advise how you intend to compete at these competitions ! , what firearm would you take to France if you were selected to Shoot as part of the Irish Standard or Production Team ! . What firearm you would use to take part in the various selection shoots planned for the next few months throughout Ireland ?. The IPSA is not a club, there are many first class clubs out there , Hilltop have a first class facility with I understand club guns available to their members . And if you decide to continue in the sport and you are in posession of a FAC for the sporting firearm you intend to use in any of the dynamic shooting sports , then the association would be delighted to receive your application . The sport of Dynamic pistol is in its infanacy , our Range Officers have taken their IROA Level 1 exams , we have two Instructors assessors that have put in long hours and many miles away from their families to gain the necessary qualifications to teach and assess students in Dynamic Pistol. I cant speak for any of the other shooting organisations but I assume when the ICPSA send a team abroad or to Northern Ireland each member must be in posession of a FAC for their shotgun , the PP1500 guys that shot in Austria the same . We are a competitive association and to compete you must have the necessary tools to do the job , if we open the membership to all comers with no set criteria for membership then we are leaving the association , its members and IPSC open to attack . The posession of a FAC is a clear demonstration to us and to the Dept Of Justice and the Gardai that our members are serious about their sport , I make no apologies as to the current rules . If and when our membership decides to change this then you will be the first to know . Our AGM will be in April in the Tullamore Court Hotel .

John FitzGerald RD IPSA.

I understand your fears and concerns, but on your application form it states that you need not one but two members to propose you to join the IPSA, surely this is sufficient enough to know who you are taking on, or do you not trust your members judgement?, if so why bother having it on the form?.
I agree with Bananaman, there are a lot of people who want to shoot mainly here in Ireland and are not bothered about international competitions at the moment, maybe in the near future when we feel up to it or in some cases when we can afford it.
I don't see the logic in not allowing people to join the organisation when they have been granted their competition licence, especially when they have been proposed by existing members. Maybe you should change the application form so you must be proposed by a committee member or two.

les45

I acknowledge that our membership application process is strict , funny thing is out of 126 applications we have declined 4 , and in all cases they are most welcome to reapply when they hold a FAC ,. I am not sure where the referance to Tullamore came from , perhaps it stems from the fact that a number of competitions are scheduled for the MNSI ranges , we had hoped to run our first selection shoot at Hilltop on the 24 Th March , but due to a prior booking that date is not available . The committee of Hilltop have assured me that they will revert in due course with dates in their calander. As RD for the association I look forward to Hilltop and MNSI as well as other clubs in Ireland hosting IPSA Sanctioned Competitions . I make no apologies to anyone for this rule , nor would I ask any member of the association to sign off on a individual . As I stated if our membership decides to change this rule ,so be it .They will get a opportunity to discuss this topic at our AGM in April .

Sparks

Just out of interest and not taking a swipe at anyone; Les, was the idea of club shooters wanting to compete with club guns in strictly club matches (nothing international-level or possibly even national-level) actually thought about when the rule was drafted?

macnas

vlmaxis wrote:

I dont get nasty Sparks, I just get mad.
My point Macnas is this, as soon as someone has a problem with an organisation, there is allways someone there who can't stand anyone rocking the the boat. Bananaman has made a valid point and if thats a 'go off half cocked' disposition, then thats sad.

I get mad too, when people start threads, quoting websites, posting links and using the board for their rants, beginning with a full blown bitching session and after receiving the reasonable explanation, it's all okay and that seems fair enough. I understand Bananaman's frustration, I went throught the same process myself, I was initially refused a FAC but I eventually got it and I'm sure he will too.

As for 'rocking the boat', it ain't no boat, it's an association with rules and a constitution.

Bananaman

John,

out of 126 applications

That's quite a lot - would all or most of those be active members??

If a level III competition was held what % of those would be likely to compete??

I was of the impression that it was much smaller than that in the Republic.

If a large proportion of those were to enter a competition that would be some days shooting - a real "sit up and take notice of this sport" type of event.

And as a matter of interest - I understand if you don't want to disclose stats in a public environment - what % of those would be in the different classes - I'm assuming that standard would be the majority - do we have many in Open or Production class? Is Revolver a common class in Ireland?

B'Man

Bananaman

Macnas,

In fairness boards is a good place to vent your concerns - initially I believed myself to be alone in my predicament - then I found that I actually knew someone else in the same situation and then wondered if this was a common occurence - enter boards - a good spot to trawl for such information.

beginning with a full blown bitching session and after receiving the reasonable explanation, it's all okay and that seems fair enough

This is exactly the case - better to have that than keep it bottled up and bitch away in a corner with nobody knowing that it was a concern.

Basically I am very happy with the outcome of this thread in that this concern/issue will be put to the membership of the IPSA at their AGM (If I get my FAC and membership before then I may be there ).

If they deem it of merit and it changes - great - if they do not then I have no real comeback and will simply have to roll with it and await my FAC - basically the situation I am in now.

IPSA will be happy in that they will have followed their consitution and fairly ruled on an issue. I will be happy in that my concern has been aired and ruled upon.

Nuf said.

B'Man

les45

To answer the various questions as posed , the club gun situation never arose , it has now and it will be discussed at the AGM .

In relation to our current membership , we have to the best of my knowlede two members with open guns , and a 65 /35 split between standard and production , of the membership 85% split between MNSI and NITSA with the balance made up off members from various clubs . I would hope that this will change with a new ranges being built in both Cork and Kerry with expressions of interest in Dynamic Shooting from the principals of both clubs already in the pipeline . And the final point I do hope Bananaman you get your FAC and I will be the first to congratulate you and hopefully shoot on a squad with you in the future . RE the level 3 , keep the June Bank Holiday clear for 2008 .

Sparks

the club gun situation never arose , it has now and it will be discussed at the AGM .

Thought that might be the case. If you get a new body set up by a group of people who started off looking at international matches, you'd expect scenarios like this one to be missed. It's no big deal so long as the body's progressive enough to listen to the stakeholders, as is being done here.

Vegeta

Have to say this is a refrshing thread.

Poster puts problem to shooting body, shooting body takes on board what poster has said and will raise issue at AGM. All too often these decend into the biggest bitch fests ever (myself included).

How grown up of us. Well done to les45 and B'man. I hope it works out for you both

Bananaman

I just heard that the AGM of the IPSA is being held this week.

Just want to highlight this issue again so it can be addressed.

les45

A very detailed and well presented motion is on the agenda for tomorrows nights AGM .

John

Sparks

Is it confidential?
C'mon John, don't tease!

sidneyreilly

You taking up practical Sparks:D

les45

No , all our members have being circulated with the agenda , sleeping bags and flasks are the order of the day / night.

Sparks

sidneyreilly wrote:

You taking up practical Sparks:D

No, still get my buzz from the ISSF stuff Sidney
But it's interesting from an admin point of view to watch an alternative to the A-shouts-at-B, B-shouts-at-A, nothing-changes model

les45

And we still have to shoot that match Mark! I am looking forward to tomorrow evening , we have a long agenda so hopefully we will get home before daybreak .

Bananaman

And behind door number 2...........?

How did it go?

Can I re-apply before my FAC comes back?

B'Man

les45

No change in relation to application process, great turnout for the AGM with 40 Members attending , meeting lasted 3 Hrs , lots of healthy debate and discussion. No Rows / shouting /or verbal abuse. Bryan will circulate the minutes to all members in the next few days .

JohnFitzGerald RD IPSA

dimebag249

Heres an off-topic... topic. Any hopes of anyone setting up for practical shotgun? There's like a couple hundred licensed pistols in the country, tens of thousands of shotguns that'd need only minor work to make them suitable for practical. Wouldn't it make more sense to have set up the sport that many more people can participate in, or am I reading the situation all wrong? Thanks guys.

sidneyreilly

1,250 pistols last count! Good point though!

dimebag249

But how many in a caliber that can be used in practical matches Sidney? I think you can't use .22's, and a lot of those pistols would be rimfire's. Stick a mag. extension, maybe rifle sights on any automatic shotgun, and you're set up. Besides, a lot of people might want to try practical without going to the undeniable expense and potential difficulty of obtaining a fullbore pistol licence. I'm just wondering is there a reason why the practical shooting assoc. set up for pistols first.

Clare gunner

ASFIK practical shotgun is going to be run this year by the IPSA.[Sorry I couldnt make the AGM:( ]
I'd agree with you that if prac shotgun was got going as well,it would encourage more membership.As dimebag said there are more scatterguns out there than pistols at the moment.But I can see the point of starting with pistols,as a point to get a foothold into Ireland with more "controversial" type weapons.By rights the ones next should be semi rifles.

dimebag249

Thanks CG, that is a good reason I hadn't really considered. Let's hope that practical shooting will be seen as good reason for allowing full-bore semis and pistols.

les45

PSG is most definitly on the cards for this year with a RO / Instructor course at a advanced stage of planning for the end of June:D . Full bore practical rifle is not on the IPSA Agenda now or in the near future .

John FitzGerald RD IPSA.

Clare gunner

Les,
It is one facet we would want to get moving,as if there is Anything that will end up on the restricted list it will be semi pistols and rifles!!No point in giving them any excuses to make life more difficult for us methinks.

packas

While it would be great to have practical rifle I think the main constraint for centre fire practical rifle shooting in Ireland would be suitable ranges:(

Bananaman

Can I Join IPSA if I have a shotgun license?

Clare gunner

Not necessarily,three gun matches can be shot in the 100/150 metere max range.
It is up to the course organiser on what scenarios are set up for rifle useage.
Doesnt have to be huge distances either for practical rifle,you are not really punching paper,but knocking lots of things down.:)

Bananaman

I'd "assume" packas means backstops.

As most practical pistol is shot in the 10-20 yard range (although it can be out to 60 yards I believe) the backstops need to be suitable for that. e.g. most of the practical bays I've seen (Hilltop) are ~ 20 yards deep so the backstop is ~30-40 feet - a few of them are deeper and higher but you get the idea.

If you go out to 60 or 100 yards you would need them to be higher to prevent someone putting one over the back wall.

B'Man

Vegeta

Bananaman wrote:

I'd "assume" packas means backstops.

As most practical pistol is shot in the 10-20 yard range (although it can be out to 60 yards I believe) the backstops need to be suitable for that. e.g. most of the practical bays I've seen (Hilltop) are ~ 20 yards deep so the backstop is ~30-40 feet - a few of them are deeper and higher but you get the idea.

If you go out to 60 or 100 yards you would need them to be higher to prevent someone putting one over the back wall.

B'Man

Don't you need higher backstops for pistols though. Does any have some specs from practical rifle ranges abroad

Bananaman

Seeing as you are running courses to become an R.O. or Instructor for Practical Shotgun I would be very interested in looking into that.

Is this already fully subscribed? Is it open to the, Shotgun License holding, public?

It sounds very interesting and I know a lot of guys who would like to "try" it, without having to commit to the expense of getting the gun, subscribing to the IPSA etc until they had decided if it was a sport they were interested in.

I'd have to a minimum of an R.O., ideally an Instructor, to be able to even take them out for a look and let them "try" a few shots at steels etc.

B'Man.

Clare gunner

Looking at the few I have seen in the US the backstops dont seem to be more than 5meters high.These are the same ones used for full auto and Destructive devices shoots as well.Alot of them are three walled as well from the backstop.Again PR is not about distance shooting all the time,but rather mass of targets you knock in the greatest possible speed.