FG Leader Announces Six-point Plan to help Schools Deal with Immigration

Dontico

Plan Includes More English-language teachers, Overhaul of Teacher Allocation System, Modernisation of Teacher Training for New Classroom Challenges.

The Fine Gael Leader Enda Kenny TD has today (Thursday) unveiled a
six-point plan to help schools deal with the challenges posed by
immigration. Kenny’s announcement came as part of a visit to Scoil
Mhuire in Lucan where 20% of the 350 pupils are non-Irish Nationals.
That share rises to 40% for the Junior Infants class. Other schools have
higher levels of international children in their classes.

"Recently I spoke of the challenges Ireland faces due to immigration "
in education, crime, road safety and economy. There is no question that
the current system is not being managed well. Immigration can be good
for Ireland, but the Government is not regulating it. As a result our
services are under severe strain. We need a system that is good for the
Irish and good for the immigrants. Right now, we have a system that is
not serving the interests of either.

"To make that system work better in our schools today I am recommending,
among other proposals:

1· an urgent increase in the number of English Language teachers,
2· a total overhaul of the flawed system of allocating English language
teachers to schools with large numbers of international children, and
3· a modernisation of teacher training to equip teachers with the skills
required to teach a more diverse group of students.

“More detail on these and my other proposals are set out below.

"œSince raising this issue, I have been contacted by many parents and
teachers who have told me of the considerable difficulties they face in
providing a proper education to all of their enrolled children Irish
and foreign national alike.

"I have visited a number of schools to see, at first hand, the impact
immigration is having in the classroom. This morning I visited Scoil
Mhuire in Lucan, meeting with teachers and pupils there. This school,
and many others, have been left without the supports they need to meet
the challenges that come with immigration.

"Some schools now accommodate children from up to 30 different
countries, from Afghanistan to Zambia. It is clear from my visits that
the issue of immigration is one of the most pressing that teachers face
today.

"We need to ensure that foreign-national children many of whom have
little or no English - can progress in our education system, whilst at
the same time making sure the education of Irish children is not held
back. This is a big task, especially when schools find themselves facing
this monumental task with little additional support.

"Our current approach is not working non-Irish national children who
lack English language competence are not benefiting from their schooling
the way they should, and some Irish children are falling behind in their
education due to the extreme pressures on individual teachers time.
Due to these pressures some children will, without doubt, find it
difficult to keep pace with their class work and the demands of the
curriculum as they get older.

"To address this issue, I have today set out a six-point plan to help
schools deal with the challenges that come with immigration:

1. Employ badly needed additional English-language teachers
without delay.

2. Overhaul the rules governing the allocation of English teachers.
Schools with a higher enrolment of children for whom English is
not their first language should be entitled to a higher number of
teachers.

3. Scrap the 'two-year' rule, which states that as soon as a child
has benefited from language support for two years this support
must end, regardless of need. Instead, after receiving this
support for two years, children should be assessed, and where
additional support is needed it should be sanctioned.

4. Update teacher-training courses to better equip teachers for the
modern classroom. Out-of-date teaching courses do not focus on the
challenges associated with teaching English as a second language,
or the real issues teachers face in communicating with pupils who
lack fluency in the language.

5. Enhance support to those currently teaching. Teachers must have
enhanced access to courses such as those provided by Integrate
Ireland Language and Training (IILT), which is funded by the
Department of Education and Science to provide training and
resource materials to assist schools in meeting the needs of
pupils for whom English is a second language.

6. Address the English-language needs of foreign national parents.
English classes should be provided during school hours on campus
for parents of international children. This is an important aspect
of allowing families to integrate into Ireland, and fostering
links between Irish and foreign national parents.

"The Minister for Education and her Department are out-of-touch with the
real needs of schools on this issue. The problems that teachers are now
experiencing should have been foreseen. The current difficulties are a
recipe for trouble, and I am concerned that if left unchallenged these
problems will hamper the educational development of both Irish and
foreign national children."

And now from Dontico. sounds logical to me.

Dontico

Dontico wrote:

And now from Dontico. sounds logical to me.

This place is neither the FG billboard or the FG discussion forum.
It's the politics forum and it's where you come to discuss things political-NOT post a long policy advertisement for one party.

Your one line contribution is not acceptable,so please present your own disscussionable thesis on this shortly or this thread will be locked.

Soap boxing is not allowed here.

Also if you are going to post articles verbatim put article tags in the thread title AND a LINK to the source of the article.
I want to see that pronto.

InFront

The only things I would say about that is it's a pity that it doesn't form part of a larger document on primary school education: specifically how they're going to deal with pupils with dyslexia and related conditions, pupils with other special needs, and standardised testing, and how they're going to bring about more structural resources like classrooms and related facilities.

Enda Kenny is correct though, there can be no question but that the current situation isn't being managed well at all. The Minister is indeed out of touch, well-intentioned though she seems. His willingness to scrap the two year rule isn't anything wonderful or grand: it's common sense. The same with employing TEFL teachers without delay - that's not some complicated new innovation - just common sense.

When you think of the nature of this plan, which is something any primary school teacher could have written in an afternoon (and Kenny is himself a former primary school teacher) you can see how obviously the current Minister and her predecessors in FF have been dragging their feet.

So my net point is this is a fool-proof solution to solving the immigration concerns with relation to PS resources. There's nothing there that could be criticised. But it would be good to see it as part as an overall comprehensive package on education. Resource difficulties pertaining to foreign pupils is not the only concern that parents have, and I wonder whether this is an attempt to have another go at an immigration debate on behalf of our good friend Mr Kenny.

Dontico

Tristrame wrote:

This place is neither the FG billboard or the FG discussion forum.
It's the politics forum and it's where you come to discuss things political-NOT post a long policy advertisement for one party.

Your one line contribution is not acceptable,so please present your own disscussionable thesis on this shortly or this thread will be locked.

Soap boxing is not allowed here.

Also if you are going to post articles verbatim put article tags in the thread title AND a LINK to the source of the article.
I want to see that pronto.

i was talking to a FG TD about immagration. he e-mailed a copy of endas speach to me so its not from a site but i'll check if there is a link on it.

i can explain my view very quickly.
i think it is logical.
why?
there is a problem with non-nationals not able to speak english. the problem should be solved on the basis that everyone in this country should speak english. its easier for employees and its easier for those looking for work.

the question i put across to people by posting this, is, why shouldnt the problem be fixed? or do they see anything wrong with this proposal? is there anything better that should be done.

ballooba

Didn't the INTO have a big meeting last week (in Lucan ?) to try and get these problems onto the agendas of the main political parties.

It's hard enough for kids being uprooted, never mind if it's to somewhere they don't speak your language. They would have trouble mixing with english speaking kids never mind learning. Although kids would pick up languages quicker?

WRT technology, a few of my friends are doing the Hibernia teaching course. Some of the technical stuff they do is off the wall, and not in a good way. I was watching the BBC's dedicated teacher's channel one day and they were displaying the technologies used by teachers there.

Now I'm not sure how widespread these are in the UK but some of the teachers had electronic blackboards which could accomodate pre-programmed routines and kids could come up and interact with the blackboard in front of the class. It gave the impression that primary schools in the UK were assigned IT Assistants?

tallaght01

Tristrame wrote:

I want to see that pronto.

hahahah u gotta love all the bigman talk on boards.jaysus.

Hope to see somebody taking the issue of immigrant kids in schools seriously in the future though.
There's decent evidence that if you're gonna put money into kids' future, then early schooling is the way to do it. It even has better payback in terms of their health than investing directly in healthcare. Until somebody is depending on votes from immigrants, then I don't believe their plight will be taken seriously, but at least a FG policy might start the debate.

InFront

I happened to be at a FG campaign meeting not too long after the Rabbitte/ Kenny immigration kite was flown, you should have heard the mumbling discontent when it was pointed out that no, most immigrants cannot vote in the General Election, just the local elections!!

Still, the way the party are approaching this reflects an honest, decent approach to catering for the needs of all students, not just the Irish pupil. They are looking to deal with integration, as opposed to immigration.

However, I'm really doubtful about a general election being the time to have the debate. I would be slightly wary about it becoming an election issue, due to the sensitivities involved.

ballooba

tallaght01 wrote:

hahahah u gotta love all the bigman talk on boards.jaysus.

He's the moderator. He has to read everything on this forum. Not a pleasant job.

tallaght01 wrote:

There's decent evidence that if you're gonna put money into kids' future, then early schooling is the way to do it.

Yeah, this occurred to me. If these kids don't get the resources they need early on then they will go on to seccondary where the problems will be compounded. Often a frustrated kids becomes a disruptive kid.

metrovelvet

If these kids don't get the resources they need early on then they will go on to seccondary where the problems will be compounded

If these kids havent learned English by then, no one can blame the system. Children of immigrants all over the world learn the native tongue and do so in a reasonable amount of time.

Scrapping Irish as a requirement however, would be a good start, or at least make it optional. Seems silly to have it, when more people here speak Polish.

Also -they should do something for native English speakers whose educations will be compromised by having to share classrooms with teachers who have to slow down for children who have not learned English. How frustrating this must be for bright, gifted children.

InFront

metrovelvet wrote:

If these kids havent learned English by then, no one can blame the system. Children of immigrants all over the world learn the native tongue and do so in a reasonable amount of time.

Without putting words in his mouth, I think it's obvious that he means that not getting a good start in primary school leaves its relics. It puts you on a path to disregarding the importance of education, or corrupting the commitment to learning. That's why a high quality educational system begins in low infants, not secondary school.

Scrapping Irish as a requirement however, would be a good start, or at least make it optional. Seems silly to have it, when more people here speak Polish.

I agree with that, Enda Kenny has already proposed it.

they should do something for native English speakers whose educations will be compromised by having to share classrooms with teachers who have to slow down for children who have not learned English. How frustrating this must be for bright, gifted children.

Bright and gifted children on both sides, actually.
Can you imagine what it is like for a bright, gifted, precocious young Polish or Nigerian child not to be able to communicate his abilities?

This does tackle that - both for domestic students, and international students. helping the newcomers is helping the Irish students.

ballooba

metrovelvet wrote:

If these kids havent learned English by then, no one can blame the system. Children of immigrants all over the world learn the native tongue and do so in a reasonable amount of time.

InFront got it in one. They have things to learn other than language. The children of immigrants need and deserve equal opportunity.

metrovelvet wrote:

Also -they should do something for native English speakers whose educations will be compromised by having to share classrooms with teachers who have to slow down for children who have not learned English. How frustrating this must be for bright, gifted children.

I'm not sure I would put it like that. If the resources for non-english speaking kids were there in the first place then teachers would not be over-stretched. Reducing class-sizes would help in this regard too.

metrovelvet

Without putting words in his mouth, I think it's obvious that he means that not getting a good start in primary school leaves its relics. It puts you on a path to disregarding the importance of education, or corrupting the commitment to learning. That's why a high quality educational system begins in low infants, not secondary school.

Of course it does. But how much is the government expected to do. A good quality education begins with the ethics at home. Parents have to crack the whip and make their kids do extra reading and writing to catch up. The education ethic has to start at home. Othereise how else are they supposed to learn the other subjects being taught?

Can you imagine what it is like for a bright, gifted, precocious young Polish or Nigerian child not to be able to communicate his abilities?

Im sure its incredibly frustrating if not infuriating for them, but no doubt far more temporary for them. When you're young it doesnt take long to learn a language fluently. And when you're young and bright- it takes even less time.

ballooba

metrovelvet wrote:

Of course it does. But how much is the government expected to do. A good quality education begins with the ethics at home. Parents have to crack the whip and make their kids do extra reading and writing to catch up. The education ethic has to start at home. Othereise how else are they supposed to learn the other subjects being taught?

Plenty of Irish kids get no support at home. I have met and worked with lots of them. I don't see how it's particularly relevant to immigrant families or the learning of english.

metrovelvet wrote:

Im sure its incredibly frustrating if not infuriating for them, but no doubt far more temporary for them. When you're young it doesnt take long to learn a language fluently. And when you're young and bright- it takes even less time.

Exactly, so if they get the support early on it shouldn't be needed for as long. Two years may however be insufficient time for some kids.

is_that_so

ballooba wrote:

Plenty of Irish kids get no support at home. I have met and worked with lots of them. I don't see how it's particularly relevant to immigrant families or the learning of english.

Exactly, so if they get the support early on it shouldn't be needed for as long. Two years may however be insufficient time for some kids.

The purpose of language support is to allow pupils come up to the same level as the native speakers, not to substitute their learning. It is not the same as teaching an adult from scratch. Two years is actually a very long time for any language learner, exposed to a language on a daily basis, especially when they are already in a learning environment.

As for the proposal I think it is sound and a very sensible approach to the problem, providing that it is fully implemented.

metrovelvet

ballooba wrote:

Plenty of Irish kids get no support at home. I have met and worked with lots of them. I don't see how it's particularly relevant to immigrant families or the learning of english.

.

So why are you bringing up Irish kids who get no support if you don't see it as relevant?

Irish kids dont need to play catch up - they have the home advantage. And no doubt those who get help at home from parents will have an advantage to those who dont.

I went to school with a lot of children of immigrants, from both poor families like Cuban immigrants to the kids of UN Diplomats [who often knew three or four languages from their travels], and often it was these kids, and jewish kids also, known for having a home education ethic, who succeeded way above and beyond the "natives."

Probably the main issue with immigration and schools here is overcrowding. Like everything else the infrastructures are bursting at the seams.

The parents need to be pressured and motivated to make their kids learn English at home, even if it means 1/2 hour a day of extra reading or listening to the radio.

InFront

Originally posted by is_that_so
Two years is actually a very long time for any language learner, exposed to a language on a daily basis, especially when they are already in a learning environment.

How many fluent Irish speakers do you know?

But you are correct, two years will usually be enough for language support - it may be a lot less.
All that Kenny is saying is that if after two years the child still needs a help in some areas, that such a resource should be available to him or her. If the child doesn't need it - great. But the backup should be there.

Remember that a lot of kids are arriving here with something like Urdu or Arabic or Mandarin, for example, and not only is it a whole new vocabulary, it's a completely new language system beginning with the ABC - or actually the very concept of an alphabet - and this may be in 4th or 5th class.

Originally posted by metrovelvet
The parents need to be pressured and motivated to make their kids learn English at home, even if it means 1/2 hour a day of extra reading or listening to the radio.

Yes, the parents have a big role to play. Unfortunately, that can't be taken for granted, and in the best interests of the child - and all of the other pupils - better professional resources are needed. I would be careful about attaching any educational ethos to any particular ethnic groups,

is_that_so

InFront wrote:

How many fluent Irish speakers do you know?

The teaching of Irish has suffered and to my mind still suffers from the fact that it is a pure academic subject. The language needs to live and be used , in the way that Gaelscoileanna use it at primary level.

InFront wrote:

Remember that a lot of kids are arriving here with something like Urdu or Arabic or Mandarin, for example, and not only is it a whole new vocabulary, it's a completely new language system beginning with the ABC - or actually the very concept of an alphabet - and this may be in 4th or 5th class.

Proper language teaching and language support resolves this surprisingly quickly.

Tea drinker

I think Irish drifted into this discussion on the basis it is academic to life in modern life, and broadly speaking this is correct. This is a side issue however, even if related a little.
I think 2 years is plenty of time to learn passable english for an adult, if they are learning intensively at least at the start and using it daily after this. Children can learn things quickly, however anyone who was educated in Ireland thru national - secondary school learned it for the duration of their education, and even after this the I still get insulted for my english on Boards!:D So I guess some asessment (as proposed) is a good idea.
I think that a huge burden is with the parents (any parents) to ensure their kids are equipped with the skills they need for their future. For those who can vote it is their responsibility to use it in a fashion which helps their family. As discussed in other threads here it is the kids of immigrants who feel displaced/ no connection whatever. Their parents have a reson to be here: came here to get money or better life, but the kids didn't make any decision to be born here. Kids (rich or poor) whose parents fail them are more likely to face difficulties other kids don't have; getting on socially or professionally. I guess the parents need to have at the very least passable English otherwise they are unlikely to be a great role model. I can fully understand kids having problem with language, but an economic migrant, coming here to work in an english speaking society (long term) it is inexcusable to not have English.

ballooba

metrovelvet wrote:

So why are you bringing up Irish kids who get no support if you don't see it as relevant?

You brought up home support for learning english which I agree is very important. It's not a substitute for support at school, but then again I don't think you were advocating a view that it's up to the parents.

metrovelvet wrote:

Probably the main issue with immigration and schools here is overcrowding. Like everything else the infrastructures are bursting at the seams.

The schools were already overcrowded before this. Language barrier or not our schools are way overcrowded and have been for a while. This is another issue that has been raised by INTO and which has to be addressed.

metrovelvet

InFront wrote:

How many fluent Irish speakers do you know?,

I know a few, but they come from Gaeltacht areas. Perhaps the government should start extra programmes for those kids who dont?

InFront wrote:

Yes, the parents have a big role to play. Unfortunately, that can't be taken for granted, and in the best interests of the child - and all of the other pupils - better professional resources are needed. I would be careful about attaching any educational ethos to any particular ethnic groups,

In places like NYC where there are many groups which have established themselves, various habits have been pointed to as either the cause of successes or the causes of failures in different ethnic groups. For example, there are reasons why Irish-Americans as a whole have not become as rich as Italian Americans. There are reasons however, for the success that they did have, and it is not an education ethic, it is an attraction to hierarchy they inherited from the church so they are drawn to careers like the police force [where there is ranking] and religion. An education ethic, is often attributed to the cause of the success of jewish immigrants, after all they want their women to be educated since they spend most time with the children, and as we can see in the Torah they have enshrined debate, criticism and commentary.

There is not much a teacher can do, if your parents are going to let you slack off.