BSG 3x14 The Woman King [**SPOILERS**]

Talisman

Synopsis from TV.com: The Sagittarons allege that a doctor is discriminating against them. As Helo investigates, he becomes concerned that the doctor may even be murdering patients. Meanwhile, Athena unwittingly brings Hera to the doctor for treatment.

Bonus scene on YouTube.com

mcgovern

It was good, but what had the name to do with the actual episode?
Helo is the main character in this episode.

Suaimhneach

King was the name of the son who died. "The woman King" is a direct quote from when Helo is talking to Odama about her son who was murdered.

I thought it was a good episode. Charachter developement, though subtle was quite good. Them playing around in the bar, seeing into the home life of Helo and Sharon with the baby.

Interesting as always to see how the battle rages between civilians. Humans vs Cylons, but then Capricians vs sagitarians vs Librians, etc.

Interesting to see Six kissing mid air. Strange that they dont think it weirder. I wonder will they ever actually explain the charachters in the mind of Baltar and Six... real, fake, imagination etc.

I need more though... One episode is just never enough.

sioda

Thought this ep was going to be pure filler till the 6 baltar scene which just raised the whole ep imo.

So now we know that the 6 on galactica is baltars original 6.

Thought the character development was good as well.

The bar has definitely given a new opening into each character

c0y0te

It was a so-so episode for me. Liked it, but felt it was let-down in a number of areas.

Still - the one thing which really bugs me is when

El Presidente and her aid are not ony watching, but recording 6 as she has her conversation with her chip-Baltar. If they are recording her, why can't they hear her side of the conversation?

Still - it's good news about Season 4, if only for 13 episodes :rolleyes:

Stark

I gave it a 3, which was quite generous of me in my opinion 3. Pure filler. At least last week's had a decent B-story.

Also, the racial overtones rivalled "Crash" for sheer brick through stained glass window subtly.

monkeyfudge

It was filler, but probably the best filler episode they've done this season. Helo is a very strong character and carried the episode really well.

Something that struck me though while watching the scene where Zarak was warning the president was about the people who want to avoid the original series in case it contains spoilers for future plots in this series... They should also probably avoid watching any news bulletins about Iraq as well.

BopNiblets

Decent episode, although casting evil dude from X-Men as a doctor was a dead give away, as soon as I saw him I pointed and shouted "He did it! Or he's a Cylon! EEEEVIL!"

Damn, even when Tighe gets punched in the face he kicks ass!

And there would have been helltopay if they killed off Dee, she's sexy too!

Talisman

I gave it a 3. Another Helo is the pillar of the community episode - I'm wondering if they are building him up for a dramatic fall from grace. For me it was more Star Trek TNG-esque than BSG - nothing really happened apart from the Six being monitored scene. On a positive note there are only six episodes remaining in season 3.

Stark

I thought the episode where he killed the infected cylons was his big character assassination ep.

iguana

Worst episode ever. It was incredibly poorly thought out and flies in the face of everything we have ever been told about Sageteraans.

The Sageteraans were an exploited race, who had spawned a dangerous terrorist movement led by Tom Zarek. At no point were we ever told that they were hardcore religious freaks who reject modern medicine. And they certainly don't reject warfare as they were introduceed to us as terrorists and terrorist sympathisers so the assertation that they refused to fight on new Caprica was crap.

And why in an episode about Sageteraans, which they had Richard Hatch for, did he not have any involvement in the situation?

The thing is the story would have made a lot more sense if it had been about the Gemnons. We have always been told that they are the hardcore religious race. And as we already know that they rejected abortion, telling us that they reject other medical procedures on religious grounds wouldn't have been completely left of field. And saying that they wouldn't fight on New Caprica would have been vaguely believable, at least more so than telling us that the people Tom Zarek is the quorum leader of wouldn't fight.

But obviously they wanted to put Dee in danger for a dramatic ending, which again made no sense as no matter how racist the doctor was he is unlikely to let the Admirals daughter-in-law die.

Hera's illness and treatment also made no sense. If she was sick she would be taken to Doc Coddle for observation and tests. She is the first of her kind and there is no way on earth they would automatically allow a doctor who would have little knowledge of her biology to just give her a drug.

monkeyfudge

I really don't like the whole bonus scene gimmick....

Are these scenes supposed to be canon or not? Also the sound quality on that youtube clip is terrible, is there any better quality ones out there?

Rollo Tamasi

terrible episode, totally irrelevant

good post by iguanu on all that was wrong with tonights episode

Jack B. Badd

It was quite simply awful. The whole thing with "Helo being totally convinced of the doctor's guilt without any evidence, everyone else being convinced of the opposite and, lo and behold, it turns out Helo was right in the first place" was just crap. No episode would be better than this rubbish.

Overheal

I liked the episode well enough but they did something really, really stupid: the doctor references Karl as a Vyper Pilot...................


.............thank you, for advertising the dubious lack of action in this segment of the season. I sorely miss Exodus.

iguana wrote:

Worst episode ever. It was incredibly poorly thought out and flies in the face of everything we have ever been told about Sageteraans.

The Sageteraans were an exploited race, who had spawned a dangerous terrorist movement led by Tom Zarek. At no point were we ever told that they were hardcore religious freaks who reject modern medicine. And they certainly don't reject warfare as they were introduceed to us as terrorists and terrorist sympathisers so the assertation that they refused to fight on new Caprica was crap.

What you just did: we call that racism in the business. Except this is a fictional group of people so I'm gonna let you go. Keep in mind what you said just gave away your view on Muslims
Also: since when does something have to be explained to you to be canon in this series? Frack, I thought you wouldve caught on by now.

And why in an episode about Sageteraans, which they had Richard Hatch for, did he not have any involvement in the situation?

Again: he was a terrorist: they were the pacifists. Thats like Osama sitting at the dinner table with Bhudda...or something.

The thing is the story would have made a lot more sense if it had been about the Gemnons. We have always been told that they are the hardcore religious race. And as we already know that they rejected abortion, telling us that they reject other medical procedures on religious grounds wouldn't have been completely left of field. And saying that they wouldn't fight on New Caprica would have been vaguely believable, at least more so than telling us that the people Tom Zarek is the quorum leader of wouldn't fight.

You are on a roll, fiend: Real world example -> You just combined the Catholic Church and Jehovas Witnesses and labeled them as one group. Smooth.

But obviously they wanted to put Dee in danger for a dramatic ending, which again made no sense as no matter how racist the doctor was he is unlikely to let the Admirals daughter-in-law die.

It couldve worked: 1) there was a lot of discussion (especially by the cast) before the season really first aired about who was going to die this season (cos of Billy....NOT BILLY! Noooooooooooooo..........) they all figured it might become a kindof 'trend'. Many fans still anticipate this.
2) The doctor was clearly not in control of his ethics: they couldve gone either way about it, but in the end chose the 'she was valuable' route. Fair play, made a bit more sense I'll agree.

Hera's illness and treatment also made no sense. If she was sick she would be taken to Doc Coddle for observation and tests. She is the first of her kind and there is no way on earth they would automatically allow a doctor who would have little knowledge of her biology to just give her a drug.

I can't actually recall what that old guy was up to this episode as a matter of fact...anyway, I'm sure that due to the limited supply of the drug it was all relocated to the hangar: treatment wouldve been administered there for the sake of convenience.
What REALLY doesnt make sense about her getting sick imho is GETTING SICK AT ALL? Shes the cure to cancer for crying out loud!!!

Jack B. Badd

They also had Helo looking through a bunch of files with (shock, horror) perfectly rectangular pieces of paper in them. Lazy since they made such a big deal out of all the paper having the edges removed in the past episodes. Sloppy work overall.

Overheal

Maybe medical records are meant to be different???

Trust me, better to let that detail lie: there are real-life Comic-Book-Guys in the US that will give them plenty of hell over this....please don't sink to that level

*[I shudder at the thought of a Star-Trek convention...]*

Jack B. Badd

Trust me, better to let that detail lie:

And I should trust your humble opinion on this one because...?

Tbh I pointed out the error with the paper to draw attention to the sloppiness of the work on this episode (which was in particularly crap). I'm honestly surprised at the low standard of work on this one.

iguana

Overheal wrote:

What you just did: we call that racism in the business. Except this is a fictional group of people so I'm gonna let you go. Keep in mind what you said just gave away your view on Muslims

What?

Overheal wrote:

Also: since when does something have to be explained to you to be canon in this series? Frack, I thought you wouldve caught on by now.

It contradicted what was already explained to us.

Overheal wrote:

Again: he was a terrorist: they were the pacifists. Thats like Osama sitting at the dinner table with Bhudda...or something.

Zarek was the landslide winner of the Sageteraans vote for a quorum leader. His politics were obviously in line with theirs or they wouldn't have elected him.

Overheal wrote:

You are on a roll, fiend: Real world example -> You just combined the Catholic Church and Jehovas Witnesses and labeled them as one group. Smooth.

Catholics are far from the only religious group who have a problem with abortions on faith grounds. And the Sageteraans in this episode appeared to have a huge amount in common with the Christian Scientist Movement, hence the comments re; doctors not understanding the relationship of the mind and the body.

Overheal wrote:

What REALLY doesnt make sense about her getting sick imho is GETTING SICK AT ALL? Shes the cure to cancer for crying out loud!!!

There is a point there, except that Hera was sick on the cylon ship. Which suggests that while she may cure certain illnesses there are ways that she can become ill.

Overheal

Good point about Zarek. I dunno, I didnt read insofar with regards to the episode: I was just more upset with the lack of action in the last few weeks. (Pegasus, Noooooooooooooo....)

My point about the Gemnons being that because they are anti-abort shouldnt be genarlising them as the CSM

I havent looked but I'll bet me left one that info on the different colonies can be found on wiki..

Ivan

I just assumed Hera getting sick was as a result of Helo getting a vaccine. Vaccine's are a small dosage of the virus injected into your blood stream to cause your body to create anti-bodies. Since she's a baby and potentially has a funky immunity system she could quite easily have become infected.

Though to what end, I'm unsure, perhaps as an attempt to regain Helo's trust.

I really thought they had killed off dee and I was amazed at the balls of the writers and grateful that she was finally gone

Yes, overall a bit cliché, somewhat melodramatic and corny but quite an excellent filler imho. Certainly beats the crap out of the boxing episode.

I did find Adama basically throwing Helo out of his office as quite uncharacteristic. Though the scene's with Tighe, Sharon and Helo were great.

Also, I always thought the whole paper edges thing was a giant joke, or did I miss something?

How do you remove the edge off of something that has a dimension?

Finally, Zarek was wasted but the warning he served was made all the more poignant by the fact he was only in the episode to deliver it.

I'm looking forward to the next few episodes, should be a blast

mcgarnicle

Overheal wrote:

Good point about Zarek. I dunno, I didnt read insofar with regards to the episode: I was just more upset with the lack of action in the last few weeks. (Pegasus, Noooooooooooooo....)

My point about the Gemnons being that because they are anti-abort shouldnt be genarlising them as the CSM

I haven’t looked but I'll bet me left one that info on the different colonies can be found on wiki..

It is pretty obvious that Iguana was just pointing out that previous episodes had already established certain traits for each race. 1- The Sagittarans, having elected Zarak, a known terrorist, are not exactly peaceful religious heads. 2- The Geminons, having been opposed to abortion, are more of the religious moral persuasion. Therefore it would have made far more sense for them to portray the Geminons as religious... A fair point I think you will agree?

Also, equating his opinion (that establishing the Sagittarans as terrorist sympathisers only to later portray them as pacifists to the point of not resisting persecution was a bit silly) to him being an anti Muslim racist is perhaps the single most idiotic post I have ever read on this entire website.

As for this episode, I too thought it was rubbish. The whole Christian Science metaphor has been done far better on Babylon 5, including a doctor forcing treatment onto his patients... although for different reasons.

The added dimension of tying this disease, which blatantly parallels AIDS, to a group of people who are despised by the majority (homosexuals?) was pretty crass, if slightly more interesting. There is no hint of subtlety or deftness to this show. I can almost imagine Ronald D. Moore writing his scripts with a paint roller, the plots are so obvious and the characters are so stale.

The bar scene was telling in that it clearly established that every one of the main characters is blatantly racist, honestly, why are we meant to care if these dregs survive or not? Seriously imagine a show where a group of Germans had reason to believe that Josef Mengele was killing Jews at some hospital, their reaction was to laugh about how smelly and ignorant Jews are... the only one to object was one German who happened to be married to a Jew who, as it seems, agrees with the racial prejudices being flung at her people. Would viewers root for this disgusting bunch every week as they tried to establish a new Nazi homeland? Helo has already been shown to be the only one with clearly defined morals and while his previous actions in killing the infected cylons were perhaps interesting, his role in this episode was not in the least surprising or engaging. He is clearly the only person on that ship that seems to be genuinely humane, although he is still an unmitigated bore... like all the other characters.

Tigh was again shown to be a slow-witted bully, lacking any leadership skills whatsoever. The sooner we see him regularly drunk the better, leave him in the gutter where he belongs... although I would imagine it would be pretty crowded on Galactica.

The rest of the ep made no impact on me. The whole Six and Baltar thing has fallen off pace and seems pointless at this stage, she wants to be a human but to do that she has to be totally selfish? The more I watch this show the more I genuinely think that either A - the humans are actually not humans at all but some evil angst machines or B - Ron D. Moore has led a very depressing and sheltered life and this is his way of letting us know just how much he hates the entire human race.

Honestly from watching the cylons and the humans now it is hard to tell who is bad and who is good. This is not the result of any good writing challenging our predefined prejudices, but is rather the result of portraying the main human protagonists as totally unrealistic, despicable arseholes. Moore has achieved ambiguity in who is good or bad only by creating a totally unrealistic vision of humanity.

Ivan

mcgarnicle wrote:

It is pretty obvious that Iguana was just pointing out that previous episodes had already established certain traits for each race. 1- The Sagittarans, having elected Zarak, a known terrorist, are not exactly peaceful religious heads. 2- The Geminons, having been opposed to abortion, are more of the religious moral persuasion. Therefore it would have made far more sense for them to portray the Geminons as religious... A fair point I think you will agree?

Also, equating his opinion (that establishing the Sagittarans as terrorist sympathisers only to later portray them as pacifists to the point of not resisting persecution was a bit silly) to him being an anti Muslim racist is perhaps the single most idiotic post I have ever read on this entire website.

As for this episode, I too thought it was rubbish. The whole Christian Science metaphor has been done far better on Babylon 5, including a doctor forcing treatment onto his patients... although for different reasons.

The added dimension of tying this disease, which blatantly parallels AIDS, to a group of people who are despised by the majority (homosexuals?) was pretty crass, if slightly more interesting. There is no hint of subtlety or deftness to this show. I can almost imagine Ronald D. Moore writing his scripts with a paint roller, the plots are so obvious and the characters are so stale.

The bar scene was telling in that it clearly established that every one of the main characters is blatantly racist, honestly, why are we meant to care if these dregs survive or not? Seriously imagine a show where a group of Germans had reason to believe that Josef Mengele was killing Jews at some hospital, their reaction was to laugh about how smelly and ignorant Jews are... the only one to object was one German who happened to be married to a Jew who, as it seems, agrees with the racial prejudices being flung at her people. Would viewers root for this disgusting bunch every week as they tried to establish a new Nazi homeland? Helo has already been shown to be the only one with clearly defined morals and while his previous actions in killing the infected cylons were perhaps interesting, his role in this episode was not in the least surprising or engaging. He is clearly the only person on that ship that seems to be genuinely humane, although he is still an unmitigated bore... like all the other characters.

Tigh was again shown to be a slow-witted bully, lacking any leadership skills whatsoever. The sooner we see him regularly drunk the better, leave him in the gutter where he belongs... although I would imagine it would be pretty crowded on Galactica.

The rest of the ep made no impact on me. The whole Six and Baltar thing has fallen off pace and seems pointless at this stage, she wants to be a human but to do that she has to be totally selfish? The more I watch this show the more I genuinely think that either A - the humans are actually not humans at all but some evil angst machines or B - Ron D. Moore has led a very depressing and sheltered life and this is his way of letting us know just how much he hates the entire human race.

Honestly from watching the cylons and the humans now it is hard to tell who is bad and who is good. This is not the result of any good writing challenging our predefined prejudices, but is rather the result of portraying the main human protagonists as totally unrealistic, despicable arseholes. Moore has achieved ambiguity in who is good or bad only by creating a totally unrealistic vision of humanity.

Hah! I mean seriously. You akin someone else claiming that Iguana's post regarding him being racist towards muslims was idiotic and you then go on to draw parallels between anti-Sagittaranism with nazism? Touché sir. I applaud your testicular fortitude...

To paint a race of explorers/refugees/whatever as a bunch of happy go lucky, hippy bunch of free loving, up their own assholes is exactly what was wrong with Star Trek.

People are not perfect. Irrespective of how perfect a single person might be, people are arrogant, ignorant, sexist, mean spirited, stupid and most of all racist.

A Sagittaran denouncing her people can be defended based on the circumstances. Dee is looking at their customs and beliefs from two sides. Those that were taught/enforced upon her as a child and those her military career taught her to realise were narrow minded and borderline childish. Its a difficult thing for people to feel accepted and alot of people will do an awful lot to fit in. Dee had to be the hardest on the Sagittarans as otherwise she may have been judged as a sympathiser to what are essentially "backward" thinkers.

By the same vein, sharon was willing to encourage her husband to drop it if only she could be the one with the group looking in. Being accepted is a vital part of the human psyche and I think this episode portrays it well.

I think alot of people who watched this episode missed alot of the subtle undertones to the story. Too caught up in the cliché of it all. With the amount of sci-fi doing the rounds these last few years its hard to be original. Some writers have stopped bothering and are going for unique story telling and character development. Battlestar Galactica and Heroes for example.

Stories dont have to be unique to be entertaining.

mcgarnicle

Ivan wrote:

Hah! I mean seriously. You akin someone else claiming that Iguana's post regarding him being racist towards muslims was idiotic and you then go on to draw parallels between anti-Sagittaranism with nazism? Touché sir. I applaud your testicular fortitude...

Were you watching the show? Surely you caught the whole Mengele angle in the show; it was not subtle (what a surprise). If you didn’t go look him up and you will see why I drew the Nazi comparison. The reason I “akinned” the claim about Iguana was because it was completely nonsensical.
The characters in this ep were clearly racist and willing to look the other way to a doctor doing wrong and a people suffering just because the victims were Sagitarans, sounds a lot like the Germans under Hitler to me.

Ivan wrote:

To paint a race of explorers/refugees/whatever as a bunch of happy go lucky, hippy bunch of free loving, up their own assholes is exactly what was wrong with Star Trek.
People are not perfect. Irrespective of how perfect a single person might be, people are arrogant, ignorant, sexist, mean spirited, stupid and most of all racist.

I never mentioned anything about Star Trek. I won’t enter the whose Sci Fi show is better debate but in my opinion TNG is far superior, relevant and intelligent than BSG, that’s just my opinion though and not really part of this thread. Also, if BSG wants to portray real humans why not show them when they are not on edge, being arseholes. A lot of humans actually are not disgusting dregs, as I’m sure you will agree… where are these people in BSG?

Ivan wrote:

A Sagittaran denouncing her people can be defended based on the circumstances. Dee is looking at their customs and beliefs from two sides. Those that were taught/enforced upon her as a child and those her military career taught her to realise were narrow minded and borderline childish. Its a difficult thing for people to feel accepted and alot of people will do an awful lot to fit in. Dee had to be the hardest on the Sagittarans as otherwise she may have been judged as a sympathiser to what are essentially "backward" thinkers.

Well I’m sure a self-hating Jew has reasons, in his/her own head, for whatever views they hold. It doesn’t make them right and if what you say is true it is even more an indictment of the rest of the characters that she feels pressurised into hating her own people.
She didn’t want to appear as a “sympathiser” to a people being racially abused/ exterminated? Yes clearly that excuses her behaviour. I think it would have made a lot more sense to show her stand up to these people, I doubt anyone is really quite so pathetically week willed as to laugh at their own people’s suffering so as to fit in with a small group of drunken dirt bags.

Ivan wrote:

By the same vein, sharon was willing to encourage her husband to drop it if only she could be the one with the group looking in. Being accepted is a vital part of the human psyche and I think this episode portrays it well.

Well that only shows that Sharon has no more morals than the rest and renders a lot of the cylon diatribes on humanity moot.
Being accepted is important to a point; to sell out your own people for the sake of being accepted by racist pigs is pathetic. This episode portrays nothing well except how week the Dee character is, we already knew the rest were dirt bags although I will admit laughing at the plight of the Sagitarans took them to a new low. Hardly what it was meant to achieve.

Ivan wrote:

I think alot of people who watched this episode missed alot of the subtle undertones to the story. Too caught up in the cliché of it all. With the amount of sci-fi doing the rounds these last few years its hard to be original. Some writers have stopped bothering and are going for unique story telling and character development. Battlestar Galactica and Heroes for example.

Sorry “subtle undertones” surely you are joking… could you point out one subtle element in this entire episode? There is next to no sci-fi about these days so I don’t see where you get this idea that it is hard to be original. Besides I’m not complaining about the lack of originality, I was just pointing out that a different show (Babylon 5, for the record a show that had a far more balanced and realistic portrayal of humanity than either BSG or Star Trek, although I still prefer Star Trek), had done this theme before and done it far better at that.

I am unaware of any real character development in BSG, I know that stuff happens to a lot of characters but they are the same people they were at the start of the series… I’m not complaining about this, I don’t think I am fundamentally any different to how I was three or four years ago, my problem is that all the characters have been wretches from the beginning.

Ivan wrote:

Stories dont have to be unique to be entertaining.

I never said they had to be unique; they have to know what they are doing though. The more I watch BSG the more I think Ron Moore has no idea whatsoever where he is taking this show. He has portrayed all but one of the main human characters as either racist or unwilling to stand up to racism in this episode, yet I’m sure in a further episode we will have to listen to some talk about how these are good people ie Starbuck’s rant to Cat a few eps back.

Seriously I cannot understand how someone can watch this episode and still claim this is a well-written show.

Pugsley

A weak episode, only thing of about the episode is that it showed us that Helo is a solid charecter and can carry an episode very well, if it wasnt for a very solid performance from Helo this episode would have got a 1 from me, instead I gave it quite a generous 3.

Goodshape

Dreadful episode. What are they playing at? Next one looks fairly dull too.

TerrorFirmer

Watchable but very weak episode. And next weeks one, going on what they showed in the end of e14, looks like utter drivel entirely.

User45701

Alright episode, didn't relay remember it had to watch it a 2nd time.

It was the first real filler they have had since the black market episode so i didnt mind it that much