FZR 250 on a provisional licence?

wb

I have had a provisional licence for about 5 years now. Up until september, I was driving mopeds. I changed it to a provisional motorcycle licence, and bought a Yamaha FZR 250. I got insured without much problem - it was just a matter of paying a bit extra.

I have since been told by a guy in the local that It is not legal for me to drive an FZR 250 without a full licence :eek: and that the insurance companies don't ask questions when you hand over the money as they won't have to pay out if I'm not legal.

Is this true? I've searched the web, but can't seem to find out.

Am I riding illegally?:(

Hotblack Desiato

By bike licence I presume you mean A and not A1? A1 is restricted to 125cc.

A provisional Class A licence (and a full class A licence for the first two years after passing your test) is limited to a power output of 25kW (33hp). Pretty sure the FZR is over that (45 ish?)

There is a power-to-weight ratio exception in Irish law, where more power is allowed so long as the power-to-weight ratio is below 0.16kW/kg, but an FZR is unlikely to be heavy enough to qualify there either.

So yes, illegal, but the Gardai don't really have any way of enforcing the law...

Oryx

If you want to be totally legal, get the bike restricted. (An adjustment is made, usually in the carb, to reduce power).

The law is a bit up in the air, and up to now the guards havent been doing much on this, but I have noticed them clamping down slightly in this area. Its not that they are doing spot checks, but if you are being a muppet and they stop you for something else, they may ask you to prove your entitled to ride the bike, I know of this happening. And bear in mind if you do pass your test youre still on a restricted bike for two years afterward.

wb

Thanks guys. Yep it's a provisional A licence. How do I find out if the bike is restricted (I don't think it is)

Sorry for the lack of ignorance here!

Niall06

You are fine on that bike.
Two years ago I went to a Dublin dealer and asked what bikes he had that were suitable for provisional.
I bought a FZR250 from him and the insurance was also arranged through the dealers.
You will have no problem.

Sputnik

You are fine on that bike.
Two years ago I went to a Dublin dealer and asked what bikes he had that were suitable for provisional.
I bought a FZR250 from him and the insurance was also arranged through the dealers.
You will have no problem.

Ehh no, not unless it was already restricted. The FZR250 produces about 33kW's of power. That's roughly 45BHP, so he's over the limit.

The insurance companies don't give a toss, they'll take your money they just won't honour the policy.

ambasite

Sputnik wrote:

Ehh no, not unless it was already restricted. The FZR250 produces about 33kW's of power. That's roughly 45BHP, so he's over the limit.

The insurance companies don't give a toss, they'll take your money they just won't honour the policy.

any idea if this is the same for cbr250? AON or dealer never mentioned.

Sputnik

any idea if this is the same for cbr250? AON or dealer never mentioned.

Fraid so. The CBR250 is putting out 40-45 BHP(29.5-33kW) depending on the model.

wb

The cbr250 is a popular first time bike. I wonder just how many people are out there on provisional licences, with unrestricted bikes.

ambasite

so, if i arrive at the test center on it, will i be let do the test?

Chunkylover

You shouldnt really have a problem doing the test if that is you main worry, I was on a cbr250 for a while and never had any issues with the gardai (was even stopped at a checkpoint and all they asked me to do was show my licence (2nd provisional at the time))

I did my test on a restriced gt650 and there where no questions asked wheather it was restricted or not

As was said before, if you act the muppet on one, youll get pulled over and you may be the unlucky one who gets to have all the gardais' frustration taken out on that day

bugs

I have never heard of a tester refusing to let someone do the test because of the power of their bike. They make you sign a waiver before you take the test to confirm you have insurance on the bike and you are entitled to ride it. I did my test on an rvf400. To put that in perspective, i had borrowed a mates bros 400 so i would be fully legal. However, after riding it around and realising it was a total donkey of a bike to ride, i took in my own bike.

*(bros 400's in general are not lemons, but his was)

ambasite

bugs wrote:

*(bros 400's in general are not lemons, but his was)

did it have an adverse effect on your repoductive organs? this lad was not too impressed by the 'tank banging' of the Bros :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx7up9syaEk

murphaph

KatieK wrote:

If you want to be totally legal, get the bike restricted.

Totally legal wrt what law?

KatieK wrote:

The law is a bit up in the air

Oh, that one!

KatieK wrote:

Its not that they are doing spot checks, but if you are being a muppet and they stop you for something else, they may ask you to prove your entitled to ride the bike, I know of this happening

What law allows them to do this? (Hint:none). Gardai can ask for licence, tax and insurance details wrt motorcycles. Nowt else. If they want to test the power output of the bike and then attempt to prosecute you under an unfinished law the DPP will soon set them straight. That's probably why nobody has ever been convicted under thos 'law'. I've read our legislation in this area and I've read the UK legislation and they are worlds apart. Ours is a joke, written by a schoolboy.

Oryx

Im not a lawyer, Im a biker.:)

The point I was making to the OP was, if you want to avoid hassle with the gardai, have a restriction cert in your pocket with your other docs. Whether the 'law' is written by a schoolboy or not, I am aware of cases where bikers have been asked to produce evidence they are riding the correct power bike. And to avoid the risk of landing in court, they are doing so.

Im aware that the law here has never been tested in court, it remains to be seen if the weight of a bike (as in pw ratio) is dry, kerb or with rider. So it is a legal nightmare, but I wasnt getting into that for the purposes of the OPs query.

Idleater

murphaph wrote:

What law allows them to do this? (Hint:none). Gardai can ask for licence, tax and insurance details wrt motorcycles. Nowt else.

Actually I believe they can ask you what they like. You of course don't have to answer but that may reflect badly and they may pursue the questioning further, at a station.

Anyway, they are I believe allowed to ask if you have a License to drive the vehicle which you are currently on.

If you answer "yes" and for example you are riding an unrestricted bike that does not comply with your license, then you are in fact lying to a Guard. How they know that you are lying is up to them, but it does not change the fact that legally you are riding against the law.

Next thing to be aware of, is that while it is stressed here that members of the Gardai do not have the ability to test your bike for compliance with the license that you hold, insurance companies will have no problem finding out if the bike was within the agreed terms of insurance that you took out with them.

They will of course pay out any third party claims, but they will most likely seek to recoup those costs from you as you were not insured to drive the vehicle which you did not have a valid license category for.

L.

murphaph

But if I am asked by a guard do I hold a licence for the 80bhp bike I ride I can honestly say "yes" because the law allows a power output <= 33bhp OR a power to weight ratio of <0.16kW/kg. The type of mass used in that ratio was never defined in law (as it was in the UK and probably the rest of the EU!) so you can claim laden weight, and therefore add in my (not insubstantial) mass, plus fuel and whatever may be in my top box etc. etc. bringing the mass up so much as to fall within the power to weight restriction. The problem is the law is 'incomplete'. It needs to be amended to make it remotely enforcible and my insurance is perfectly valid as it falls under this incomplete law also. The law doesn't allow any 'fuzziness' when it comes to things like this. It is, or it isn't and in this case, it isn't. I don't ride my bike because I think I can bluff the Gardai, I ride it because the law allows me too. I would not ride a bike that didn't fall under the 0.16kW/kg when laden weight was taken into consideration as then I would not fall under either restriction and would certainly be riding without a licence.

Idleater

murphaph wrote:

But if I am asked by a guard do I hold a licence for the 80bhp bike I ride I can honestly say "yes" because the law allows a power output <= 33bhp OR a power to weight ratio of <0.16kW/kg.

Sorry, but you are wrong on that.

The restriction is overall bound by the 25kw ceiling.

See here.

citizens information wrote:

Category A driving licences carry a restriction. This restriction limits the licence holder to motorcycles (with or without a sidecar) subject to a power limit of 25Kw. This restriction continues for two years after you complete your motorcycle driving licence test for this category and you have obtained a full driving licence for this category. This restriction was introduced for anyone applying for a Category A driving licence after 17 November 1999.

L.

Hotblack Desiato

nereid wrote:

Sorry, but you are wrong on that.

The restriction is overall bound by the 25kw ceiling.

See here.

Rubbish! They have no clue with regard to bikes. Look here where they claim that a restricted licence is "approx 300cc" when we all know that there's no relationship between cc and power. I've emailed them several times in the last few years trying to get them to remove that grossly misleading statement but they don't want to know. The actual legislation is S.I. 352/1999:

S.I. 352/1999 wrote:

17. A person granted a provisional licence for the first time on or after the commencement of these Regulations to drive vehicles in category A and who on obtaining a certificate of competency in that category is subsequently granted a driving licence in that category, shall, until a period of two years after the grant of the latter licence, be restricted to driving only those vehicles in the said category which have a power output not exceeding 25 kW or a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0.16 kW/kg, or in the case of vehicles in the said category with sidecars, with a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0.16 kW/kg.

Hotblack Desiato

KatieK wrote:

The point I was making to the OP was, if you want to avoid hassle with the gardai, have a restriction cert in your pocket with your other docs.

A restriction certificate isn't worth the paper it's printed on, and the Gardai know this.

Anyone with a decent quality printer could do one up in a few minutes.

Anyway, the law only requires you to meet the power (or power/weight) limit. It doesn't require you to have proof of this - and anyway short of a dyno run there is no way to prove that restrictors are still in place.

Tax and insurace are different - it's not enough to be taxed and insured, the law requires you to have proof that you're taxed and insured.

Whether the 'law' is written by a schoolboy or not, I am aware of cases where bikers have been asked to produce evidence they are riding the correct power bike.

What guards ask for can be funny - I've been asked for an insurance disc on a bike.

murphaph

Cheers for linking ti that S.I. ninja. It saved me the bother! That litle "or" is the problem!