Tribeca 50/1 NL

Vamos

Villian in the hand is 79/34/2.1 and is a terrible player. Top pair is the nuts to him. The table has been playing very loose, everyone is looking to stack him.

Holdem No Limit - $1 BB

SB ($150.25)
BB ($43.25)
UTG ($109.03)
MP ($0)
CO ($176.69) [Hero]
Button ($68.66)

Hero is CO with 5c, 6c
Preflop: (5 players, $1.5)
UTG calls $1 and raises $4, Hero calls $5, Button calls $5, SB folds, BB calls $4

Flop: 2c, 7c, 6h (4 players, $20.5)
BB bets $8, UTG calls $8 and raises $96.03 and is All-In, Hero???

phantom_lord

fold pf, fold now.

ianmc38

Fold.

El Stuntman

phantom_lord wrote:

fold pf, fold now.

.

terrible PF call

just get the hell out of dodge now unless you are in mad gamblor mode

Vamos

Ok, fold preflop. I called preflop because it was more or less guaranteed to be called in at least one other spot and I was tilting slightly. No one finds a call on the flop?

Lafortezza

Is BB or UTG the really bad player?
If it's UTG then I go all-in. Actually looking at stack sizes it doesn't really matter.

El Stuntman

Vamos wrote:

No one finds a call on the flop?

you have second pair and a draw to a weak flush, the BB has shown some strength and the Button has still to act

your flush draw may well be dominated by a higher flush draw and your pair of sixes is most likely useless against an overpair (highly likely) or top pair (or even a set)

this is not the way to stack an idiot! the way to stack an idiot is to isolate them with a good hand....

Vamos

lafortezza wrote:

Is BB or UTG the really bad player?
If it's UTG then I go all-in. Actually looking at stack sizes it doesn't really matter.

Sorry should have made it clearer, UTG is the muppet.

Scotty #

It looks like he doesn't want a call so its fairly likely its a bigger draw than yours.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Lafortezza

Against AA

pokenum  -h 6c 5c  - ah as  -- 2c 7c 6h 
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 7c 2c 6h
cards  win   %win  lose  %lose  tie  %tie     EV
6c 5c  520  52.53   470  47.47    0  0.00  0.525
As Ah  470  47.47   520  52.53    0  0.00  0.475

Against nut flush draw with overs

pokenum  -h 6c 5c  - ac kc  -- 2c 7c 6h 
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 7c 2c 6h
cards  win   %win  lose  %lose  tie  %tie     EV
6c 5c  529  53.43   461  46.57    0  0.00  0.534
Ac Kc  461  46.57   529  53.43    0  0.00  0.466

Against top pair

pokenum  -h 6c 5c  - ac 7s  -- 2c 7c 6h 
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 7c 2c 6h
cards  win   %win  lose  %lose  tie  %tie     EV
6c 5c  468  47.27   522  52.73    0  0.00  0.473
7s Ac  522  52.73   468  47.27    0  0.00  0.527

Against top set.

pokenum  -h 6c 5c  - 7h 7s  -- 2c 7c 6h 
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 7c 2c 6h
cards  win   %win  lose  %lose  tie  %tie     EV
6c 5c  307  31.01   683  68.99    0  0.00  0.310
7s 7h  683  68.99   307  31.01    0  0.00  0.690

Why does everyone want to fold this so quickly?

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

El Stuntman

LuckyLloyd wrote:

If we were gauranteed to be headsup it wouldn't be bad obviously - but there are two people to act behind us.

exactamondo

sikes

calling preflop aint a good idea, maybe if your closing the action and theres a good pot out there.

I couldnt get it in quick enough on the flop tbh. He is a muppet, well capable of doing this with overrcards. If button/BB wakes up with a set so be it. We dont mind another FD calling. It really hinges on the fact that we believe this muppet will play a strong Ax like this, which in my experience they will

cardshark202

Wow at all the folds. I'm snap-calling this one. allinallinallinallinallinallin

El Stuntman

cardshark202 wrote:

Wow at all the folds. I'm snap-calling this one. allinallinallinallinallinallin

there's a surprise

eggie

Pre-flop call is fine against someone with these stats.

Heads up i call in a heart beat, other two in the hand may sway me to fold the flop. Ul.

Edit: big blinds lead looks like a blocking type bet on a bigger draw than you.

Lafortezza

What kind of flop is hero looking to get with 5c6c?
If you won't get $$ in the middle with this kind of flop against this kind of opponent, do you wait to flop the nuts or until you get a Q55 board?

eggie

There are 3 opponents in this hand, not just the maniac - unfortunately.

Hectorjelly

easy call on the flop

Hawk Eye

Just like others have said fold preflop but once that flop comes down I'm never folding. Theres going to be a side pot of $60 (provided button tags along) between you and villian so it doesn't matter what others do behind you. Calling $104 here is not marginal at all with 2nd pair+flush draw and some backdoor straight draws.

RoundTower

eggie wrote:

There are 3 opponents in this hand, not just the maniac - unfortunately.

that makes it better for you if someone else comes along for the ride, you will have a bigger pot and probably they don't have a flush draw.

Hawk Eye

How many big blinds would villian need to have for you even to consider folding?
If he pushes 350BB's+ I might at least think about it.

eggie

RoundTower wrote:

that makes it better for you if someone else comes along for the ride, you will have a bigger pot and probably they don't have a flush draw.

Of course it does - IF? However, the more people that get involved in this pot the more likely they have a bigger draw and our only outs are an inside str8 draw our improving on our pair.

We also making their odds on their draw by calling. I'd just rather have better position in this hand, lot of what ifs for a mid pair/ baby draw. I dont worry about the villain at all here, it the other two in the pot who could be stealing my outs if behind, or have a better made hand (or both). Stack sizes are important. I'm not against a call by any means, just dont think its as str8 forward as our draw is good, go for it.

sikes

what draw do they have that we are not ahead of atm?

A few things from poker stove.

Board: 2c 7c 6h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 53.434% 53.43% 00.00% 529 0.00 { 6c5c }
Hand 1: 46.566% 46.57% 00.00% 461 0.00 { KcQc }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 68.505% 68.51% 00.00% 61038 0.00 { 6c5c }
Hand 1: 31.495% 31.49% 00.00% 28062 0.00 { 88+, ATo+ }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 32.558% 32.56% 00.00% 22932 0.00 { 6c5c }
Hand 1: 26.412% 26.41% 00.00% 18603 0.00 { 88+, ATo+ }
Hand 2: 41.030% 41.03% 00.00% 28899 0.00 { KcQc }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 29.066% 29.07% 00.00% 70866 0.00 { 6c5c }
Hand 1: 04.489% 04.49% 00.00% 10944 0.00 { 88+, ATo+ }
Hand 2: 66.445% 66.45% 00.00% 162000 0.00 { 77 }

Of course if the we run into a set and a bigger fd its not pretty.

eggie

I'm quite neutral to folding or calling here. Poker stove after the hand is quite useless to the OP.

The points I am trying to highlight here are those other than pot odds at the time the action gets to us, it is merely to give the OP a different view and widen his range of thinking to allow a better collective of information (which he previously maybe unaware of) to make better informed decisions.

He wont have the boards experts at his laptop to give the highly descriptive and reasoned "easy call, ship it" reply.

sikes

eggie wrote:

I'm quite neutral to folding or calling here. Poker stove after the hand is quite useless to the OP.

lol

eggie wrote:

The points I am trying to highlight here are those other than pot odds at the time the action gets to us, it is merely to give the OP a different view and widen his range of thinking to allow a better collective of information (which he previously maybe unaware of) to make better informed decisions.

The only points you have made are about people waking up behind you with a better made hand or a FD. But this is only a problem when you are up against a better FD AND a set, as shown by the calculations above, which for some reason you choose to ignore.

Also you made a point about calling a 5x raise preflop against this oppoent,when in EP, as fine. Thats just wreckless.

RasTa

nice flop, call.

RoundTower

Hawk Eye wrote:

Just like others have said fold preflop but once that flop comes down I'm never folding.

Folding preflop here would be terrible, spots like this are among the most profitable in poker. If the stacks were deeper you should consider reraising preflop, depends who the other guys are.

Gholimoli

RoundTower wrote:

Folding preflop here would be terrible, spots like this are among the most profitable in poker. If the stacks were deeper you should consider reraising preflop, depends who the other guys are.

I don’t think folding 56s pre flop on the CO to a raise is terrible and I highly doubt the fact that flat calling raises with is amongst the most profitable situations so basically I will have to disagree with these comments.
I doubt by folding 56s pre flop to a raise you are ever wrong but I can think of plenty of situations where calling with them is wrong

RoundTower

Gholimoli wrote:

I don’t think folding 56s pre flop on the CO to a raise is terrible and I highly doubt the fact that flat calling raises with is amongst the most profitable situations so basically I will have to disagree with these comments.
I doubt by folding 56s pre flop to a raise you are ever wrong but I can think of plenty of situations where calling with them is wrong

did you even read the OP, he said the raiser was a terrible player, etc. Getting in raised pots with position on very bad players is one of the most profitable things in poker, not having 56s.

ianmc38

RoundTower wrote:

Folding preflop here would be terrible, spots like this are among the most profitable in poker. If the stacks were deeper you should consider reraising preflop, depends who the other guys are.

I disagree with your first point with 100xBB stacks. It's usually -EV.

I do often reraise with SCs in position, as you said depending on the tendencies of the other people in the hand.

Hectorjelly

eggie wrote:

Of course it does - IF? However, the more people that get involved in this pot the more likely they have a bigger draw and our only outs are an inside str8 draw our improving on our pair.

We also making their odds on their draw by calling. I'd just rather have better position in this hand, lot of what ifs for a mid pair/ baby draw. I dont worry about the villain at all here, it the other two in the pot who could be stealing my outs if behind, or have a better made hand (or both). Stack sizes are important. I'm not against a call by any means, just dont think its as str8 forward as our draw is good, go for it.

no offence eggie but this is nonsense. We flopped a very strong hand, if someone has a better hand behind us theres nothing we can do; its not worth worrying about

sikes

RoundTower wrote:

Getting in raised pots with position on very bad players is one of the most profitable things in poker, not having 56s.

If we are heads up, obv i agree, however, the game is playing very loose and we expect at least one more caller. Obviously our implied odds go up with another caller, but our bluffing potential goes drastically down. We arent closing the action and people will 3bet pretty lightly here.

Vamos

Results:

I'm surprised at all the folds. I called straight away and got a lot of "wows" from the chatbox when they saw what I had, which is why I posted the hand.
I thought a call was pretty standard against this kind of player.

There was $28 of what could be dead money in the middle already.
If BB had a set I was pretty much neutral EV with him for the main pot and I was fairly sure UTG had an overpair/top pair so I was favourite if there was a large sidepot.
Worrying about a combination of a set and higher flush draw is pretty nitty imo but maybe I'm just too loose.

Anyway button folded and original bettor (BB) folded!. UTG had Ah7h and it held up.

Gholimoli

RoundTower wrote:

did you even read the OP, he said the raiser was a terrible player, etc. Getting in raised pots with position on very bad players is one of the most profitable things in poker, not having 56s.

Yes I did read the OP.villain is descdibed as loose/aggro so you are advocating its profitable to get involved in raised pots with a this kind of opponent with 56s just because we have position?
I not only think this is not a profitable thing to do but im sure it’s a money looser in the long run.you can just wait for a good starting hands to get this opponent and no need to get involved with trash like this.
Most of the time what will happen is that you will flop a draw which he will prise you out of chasing.

sikes

gholi, the villain in the hand is loose preflop, but he is a terrible player. one would assume this would mean he is very easy to read so we want to get heads up with this guy in position

If his original raise preflop was smaller, we could raise to isolate.

Gholimoli

sikes wrote:

gholi, the villain in the hand is loose preflop, but he is a terrible player. one would assume this would mean he is very easy to read so we want to get heads up with this guy in position

If his original raise preflop was smaller, we could raise to isolate.

He is loos and aggressive means he bets a lot, over values his hands a lot etc.
While this is certainly bad play and is very exploitable, reraising to isolate him with 56s is not a way to do it at all.
You say he is a bad player, but what does that mean really?
Does it mean that if you call his pre-flop raises you can take the pot post flop cuz he is bad?
My point is he will bet and bet hard and 56s with those stacks is not a hand to go to war with this guy infact im sure it will be a long term money looser.
This is a cash game with out any antes,which means you can afford to wait for a hand that performs well against his range.
Blind aggression is not exploitable by being blindly aggressive back .
When you reraise with a hand like 56s you have to be able to take the pot down preflop some of the time ,and be able to take the pot down post flop with out hitting some time as well to make it profitable.loose people don’t fold which means none of the above is likely to happen.

sikes

theres nothing that says hes aggressive post flop. he is a terrible player who is easy to read.

clearly we have different views of the villain.

Gholimoli

sikes wrote:

theres nothing that says hes aggressive post flop. he is a terrible player who is easy to read.

clearly we have different views of the villain.

there is nothing to say he is easy to read ,all that is said about him is that he will get stacked with TP and the likes which indicates he goes far with his hands which means he does not fold often.
now how u think this is a good opponent to reraise with 56 is beyond me.

sikes

Gholimoli wrote:

there is nothing to say he is easy to read ,all that is said about him is that he will get stacked with TP and the likes which indicates he goes far with his hands which means he does not fold often.
now how u think this is a good opponent to reraise with 56 is beyond me.

a terrible players profile would usually include easy to read.

my original point was that folding>>raising>>>>calling becuase our call is so exploitable by players left to act.

i will raise in this spot (if we have bigger stacks), becuase if a game is playng loose like this, i am pretty tight. raising gets us heads up with a lose player, and we are the agressor in the hand. There is no mention that he floats or calls with air or bets wrecklessly on the flop, so if he only hits the flop 1/3 of the time this is pretty easy to see why this is a good idea. Add to the times we hit big and he hits top pair, and we are looking good

However, this is the problem with the discussion, we are both making assumptions about a villain we know nothing about post flop, and so this discussion is pretty stupid.

Lafortezza

Gholimoli wrote:

now how u think this is a good opponent to reraise with 56 is beyond me.

Would you do it with deep stacks if you know he'll treat top pair like the nuts?

Gholimoli

sikes wrote:

a terrible players profile would usually include easy to read.

my original point was that folding>>raising>>>>calling becuase our call is so exploitable by players left to act.

i will raise in this spot (if we have bigger stacks), becuase if a game is playng loose like this, i am pretty tight. raising gets us heads up with a lose player, and we are the agressor in the hand. There is no mention that he floats or calls with air or bets wrecklessly on the flop, so if he only hits the flop 1/3 of the time this is pretty easy to see why this is a good idea. Add to the times we hit big and he hits top pair, and we are looking good

However, this is the problem with the discussion, we are both making assumptions about a villain we know nothing about post flop, and so this discussion is pretty stupid.

Im not making assumptions about villain im going by what OP described him which is that he over values hands .some one who over values top pair more than likely does the same with draws middle pairs etc .this kind of opponent is generally loos and you cant get them to fold much.
When you reraise with some trash like 56 you are creating a big pot with a hand that is more than likely behind is .now that on its own is not the problem what is the problem is that we will not fold to your Cbets post flop often do make this profitable.
Whats worse is that he is not passive either ,which means he will bet and bet hard if he hits .this will kill your odds of drawing after the flop and hands such as 56s are drawing hands which often reach their potential after the flop and by the river .you will not get to see the river against this kind of player often for the correct prize.
Also your logic about wanting to get HU with this guy is also wrong IMO.
Again 56 is a drawing hand and you want as many ppl in the hand as possible to give you sufficient odds for drawing post flop.
Raising to isolate him with 56 is silly IMO

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

sikes

Gholimoli wrote:

Im not making assumptions about villain im going by what OP described him which is that he over values hands .some one who over values top pair more than likely does the same with draws middle pairs etc .this kind of opponent is generally loos and you cant get them to fold much.
When you reraise with some trash like 56 you are creating a big pot with a hand that is more than likely behind is .now that on its own is not the problem what is the problem is that we will not fold to your Cbets post flop often do make this profitable.
Whats worse is that he is not passive either ,which means he will bet and bet hard if he hits .this will kill your odds of drawing after the flop and hands such as 56s are drawing hands which often reach their potential after the flop and by the river .you will not get to see the river against this kind of player often for the correct prize.
Also your logic about wanting to get HU with this guy is also wrong IMO.
Again 56 is a drawing hand and you want as many ppl in the hand as possible to give you sufficient odds for drawing post flop.
Raising to isolate him with 56 is silly IMO

we are going around in circles. if villain is as you describe then i agree, we should wait for a hand with show down value,

given the stack sizes. you think we cant outplay this opponent on the flop while i believe that villains who play like this preflop, are quite exploitable post flop, esp by taking the aggression away from them preflop.

Theres a stack size threshold that exists where not raising with any two cards to get heads up against this guy, the villan you describe, is a huge mistake. do you agree?

Gholimoli

sikes wrote:

Theres a stack size threshold that exists where not raising with any two cards to get heads up against this guy, the villan you describe, is a huge mistake. do you agree?

No offence but this is the most ridiculous statement I’ve heard in a while.
I donno where you get this from that raising for isolation with any two is a good play against loose opponents?
Again this is a cash games with no antes and as a result allows you to wait for a good hand and then play him.
His play is exploitable yes I agree but he is certainly not exploited the way you suggest.
Anyway I seem to be repeating my self so im not gonna respond any more unless I see some new argument here.

sikes

Gholimoli wrote:

No offence but this is the most ridiculous statement I’ve heard in a while.
I donno where you get this from that raising for isolation with any two is a good play against loose opponents?
Again this is a cash games with no antes and as a result allows you to wait for a good hand and then play him.
His play is exploitable yes I agree but he is certainly not exploited the way you suggest.
Anyway I seem to be repeating my self so im not gonna respond any more unless I see some new argument here.

we are 100000BB deep. 5 handed. lagtard bets, raises, falls in love with anything and stacks off all the time raises for the umpteenth time in EP.

we reraise to isolate with 72o.

You dont think this is good?

Maybe im wrong. i aint playing much anymore cos i dont have the time with college, so i have started to post more. i want people to disagree. the best threads on here are when people disagreed, and not just for the comedy aspect but becuase they are informative.

Gholimoli

sikes wrote:

we are 100000BB deep. 5 handed. lagtard bets, raises, falls in love with anything and stacks off all the time raises for the umpteenth time in EP.

we reraise to isolate with 72o.

You dont think this is good?

Maybe im wrong. i aint playing much anymore cos i dont have the time with college, so i have started to post more. i want people to disagree. the best threads on here are when people disagreed, and not just for the comedy aspect but becuase they are informative.

let me answer your question with an example that is a lot like yours here:

its the first hand of the WSOP,
UTG goes all in ,and every one calls,
you are on the BB and have AA do you call?
what if you happen to have seen the first flop card and here is an A in it?

what if you happen to see some ones card who has KK and you also happen to see the first flop card which was a K but also had an A but the third one was either a K or an A?

sikes

Gholimoli wrote:

let me answer your question with an example that is a lot like yours here:

anwsering a question with a question. pfft.

Gholimoli wrote:

its the first hand of the WSOP,
UTG goes all in ,and every one calls,
you are on the BB and have AA do you call?

obv

Gholimoli wrote:

what if you happen to have seen the first flop card and here is an A in it?

creame myself.

Gholimoli wrote:

what if you happen to see some ones card who has KK and you also happen to see the first flop card which was a K but also had an A but the third one was either a K or an A?

so i have a 50/50 chance getting 9/1 on my money.

ill get back to you.....

not really sure what that was about,

how about my situation, that raising with 72o for isolation when outrageously deep is +EV against an uber lagtard who stacks off with anything and everything

sikes

sikes wrote:

Theres a stack size threshold that exists where not raising with any two cards to get heads up against this guy, the villan you describe, is a huge mistake. do you agree?

ok i got a bit carried away with that statement, it implies we should do it all the time. we obv shouldnt do it every hand obv, cos the other players will take advantage and it will encourage getting 4 betted preflop.

i think this makes more sense.

Theres a stack size threshold that exists where raising with any two cards to get heads up against this lagtard is +EV.

In fact looking at it that way, its pretty straight forward and shouldnt warrant discussion.

eggie

sikes wrote:

we are 100000BB deep. 5 handed. lagtard bets, raises, falls in love with anything and stacks off all the time raises for the umpteenth time in EP.

we reraise to isolate with 72o.

You dont think this is good?

Maybe im wrong. i aint playing much anymore cos i dont have the time with college, so i have started to post more. i want people to disagree. the best threads on here are when people disagreed, and not just for the comedy aspect but becuase they are informative.

I dont think re-raising with 7 2 against this type of opponent is a good idea, nor with 56s.