HH - poor play or thats poker baby!

EARMUFFS

1-2 live cash game.I'm on the button. 9 players. 8 limpers pot 16. I limp with 87o/s.Flop comes 5h 6s 9h. SB makes it 10. BB calls. Folded around to mp who also calls 10. I raise pot(80) I have 55 left. Bad move? Folded around to mp who goes all in in (110). 30 extra to me so i call. MP hasn't played that many hands and i'm only at the table 45mins max.6h on the river loses me the pot. Did i overbet? Is there any way he's folding here no matter what i do. He shows Ah 8h.

ianmc38

you raised the pot with the nuts. thats rarely ever a bad thing especially on a draw heavy board like that. move to bad beat sticky.

Ste05

Poor play TBH, you should have made a smaller re-raise and then folded when the other guy went all in.

phantom_lord

Ste05 wrote:

Poor play TBH, you should have made a smaller re-raise and then folded when the other guy went all in.

lol?

gocall01

Ste05 wrote:

Poor play TBH, you should have made a smaller re-raise and then folded when the other guy went all in.

Can you please explain the reasoning here, not sure I'm getting it.
The nuts have been floped but you want to be able to get away from it!
I realise the flush came but...

The PSB was perfect here IMO, I would have just pushed probably.
The mistake was made by the flush drawer percentage-wise, althought it's never easy to take when they hit.

Over time the PSB/push bet will make you money here surely!

God, if I'm wrong I think I've just found a leak!

EARMUFFS

Ste05 wrote:

Poor play TBH, you should have made a smaller re-raise and then folded when the other guy went all in.

Thats what i thought after MP's all in.
Smaller reraise though? My hand can't get any better so by raising the pot i wanted to scare off any flush draws.
Say i raise it to 40(pot is 46). MP goes all in with his 110. Another 70 to win 196 with the nuts? Folding there doesn't seem that good a play.

Ste05

There's flush draws out there, he could have trips, if we raise like the OP did here, we're committed to the hand and will have to call the Push. And there are sooooo many turns and rivers that will beat us. Where as if we raise small we can fold knowing that he either had a flush draw or trips and would have probably outdrawn on the turn or River. I'm sure by now you all realise I don't put money into the pot without the MORTAL nuts. This is a good example of how to get away from marginal hands.

If we min-raise and are called, we can then safely fold when the flush comes on the turn or the board pairs.

sikes

lol

gocall01

Finally, I've seen the error of my ways.
Oh, and also the laced with sarcasm sticker!

Ste05

Ste05 wrote:

I'm sure by now you all realise I don't put money into the pot without the MORTAL nuts (or at least a chance to have the MORTAL NUTS by the River).

FMP.

stevvie

i usually just read these posts but this one has angered me so much i had to create an account.Ste are you actually saying that this poster should have slow played the nuts so he could see a scare card and get away from it??you call this a ''marginal hand'' its the nuts!!i think it was played properly and it was unlucky the flush hit on the river.i thought boards was a good place to get advice but then i see this post with comments like these- ''there are sooooo many turns and rivers that will beat us.'', ''if we raise small we can fold knowing that he either had a flush draw or trips and would have probably outdrawn on the turn or River.''this is ridiculous advice, if you were completely joking fair enough

ianmc38

Ste05 wrote:

There's flush draws out there, he could have trips, if we raise like the OP did here, we're committed to the hand and will have to call the Push. And there are sooooo many turns and rivers that will beat us. Where as if we raise small we can fold knowing that he either had a flush draw or trips and would have probably outdrawn on the turn or River. I'm sure by now you all realise I don't put money into the pot without the MORTAL nuts. This is a good example of how to get away from marginal hands.

If we min-raise and are called, we can then safely fold when the flush comes on the turn or the board pairs.

LOL!!!

Paul Tergat

stevvie wrote:

if you were completely joking fair enough

I'd say he was!

unlucky OP, got it in with the nuts - can't do any more!

Ste05

Sorry if I angered you Ste (nice name BTW ) I don't think I ever said he should slow play them, I said he should have raised, but smaller. That way he could get away from the hand. Slow playing would have been just suicide. He has a very marginal nut hand. Nothing too great so he needed to bet.

With the chances of him being up against a FD or a set, there's like a better than 2:1 chance that he gets outdrawn. What odds of you being outdrawn does it take before you fold a good hand.

stevvie

ok i agree its a scary board for the nuts but i think that warrants a big bet. i can see where you're coming from but i just dont agree with it. you'll still be favourite to win the hand against a set or flush draw. i'm very happy to get all my money in against a flush draw with the nuts it's not ideal but he's playing catch up. there was a bet of 10 and a call the pot is 80 whats he meant to bet...40??with the way the hand played out the OP was always busting on this hand because of the huge flop for the Ah 8h, he still had the nuts on the turn and im not sure if the villain was folding

leaba

Ste, it's a cash game. You gotta play the odds. You seem to be applying some warped form of tourney life thinking to this. The dude has the nuts...someone wants to gamble a draw with him...he should be doing this all day long...

Ste05

leaba, are you referring to me or stevvie??

I never even thought about the Tournament Life angle, hmmm, interesting. Obviously if it had of been a tournament he should have went all-in on the flop, with a huge over-bet in order to make sure that no-one could possibly call him and hopefully knock out all the FD's and give all sets a really hard decision that hopefully they'd fold to. Certainly all my thoughts and analysis was geared towards a certain type of cash game mentality that I'm trying to understand a little better so I can incorporate it into my game.

ROCKMAN

The only advantage with a smaller re-raise on the flop i can see,is u gamble on a rag turn card and push all-in making it harder to call to see the river, However i think he was always going to ship it to any raise...

leaba

I was referring to you Ste...I think you might be taking the p*** too now by the way but just in case you're not.

"hopefully knock out all the FD's and give all sets a really hard decision that hopefully they'd fold to"

Forget about cash game/tourney. Why would you want someone with a set to fold when you are by far the favourite to win the hand?

sikes

ste is just highlighting the thought process of so many players.

CelticPhantom

I think one thing that was not taken into account here is the villian's stack size.

The pot was €160, and it cost him €80 to call. Therefore the pot was offering him odds of 33%.

Normally if you have a draw on the flop you must consider what the odds are of making your hand on the next card, giving him ~20% (9 cards x 2.2) to make the flush - this is way short of the pot odds and would be incorrect to call. However if he was to call this would leave him with €30 so he was pot committed and therefore would have to go all-in. Since he is going all-in he will get to see the turn and river. Therefore to calculate the odds of him hitting his hand he must take into account the two cards to come (9 cards x 4). The odds of him hitting his nut flush were 36%.

The fact that he had better odds of hitting his hand than the pot odds made his play correct. Even if you had pushed all-in the pot odds would have been 36 2/3%, which although marginally incorrect he would probably have called anyway.

The mistake here is in not realising that since he will be pot commited on the flop he can calculate the odds for making his hand on the next two cards, which made it right to call/go all-in.

If you bet €40 one the flop his Pot Odds are 25%, and the chances of him making the nut flush on the next card are 20% - if he is calculating pot odds then he will probably fold. If he calls and you push on the turn the pot odds are 23 2/3% and he is incorrect to call.

Note : These observations are based on knowing what his cards are.

Regards,

Fintan

Ste05

leaba wrote:

Forget about cash game/tourney. Why would you want someone with a set to fold when you are by far the favourite to win the hand?

Because I don't want to lose the pot?? Take it down now and lock in a profit....

leaba

Ahh now I see...I've just undergone an immense Paradigm shift thanks to your replies to this thread. It's wet here.

CelticPhantom

EARMUFFS wrote:

Flop comes 5h 6s 9h. He shows Ah 8h.
Is there any way he's folding here no matter what i do.

Short answer = NO (At least not if he knows his pot odds).

My last post did not take into account that he has the Nut Flush draw AND the nut straight draw. He can hit any of the non-heart 7's to make the nut straight (He does not know that you have a 7).

This gives him 12 outs. He will make the nuts if he hits a 7 or a heart. The odds of him hitting the nuts if he goes all-in on the flop are 48% (in the next 2 cards), while his pot odds would be 36 2/3% if you put him all-in on the flop.

Even if you bet €40 on the flop, the pot odds are 25% and his odds of hitting the nuts are greater (26 1/2%). So he should call. Then if you put him all-in on the turn the pot odds are 23 2/3% and his odds of hitting the nuts on the river are still 26 1/2%. So he should call.

If you bet €40 on the flop, and the turn comes a non-heart, you are bound to bet and the pot odds will compel him to call.

I do not think there was anything that you could have done in this situation.

Regards,

Fintan

Ste05

leaba wrote:

It's wet here.

I'm sure I'm missing something here, care to explain??

peeko

lol, the nuts is the worst hand you can have in Texas Hold all

leaba

Should've included a ...

CelticPhantom

Ste05 wrote:

Because I don't want to lose the pot?? Take it down now and lock in a profit....

In a cash game you want to get the most money when you are favourite (think maximising profit). The amount of extra money that you win will more than compensate for the times that you lose over the long run.

I can understand this thinking in a tourney where one bad beat can kill you, but cash games require a longer term view.

Regards,

Fintan

Goodluck2me

gocall01 wrote:

Can you please explain the reasoning here, not sure I'm getting it.
The nuts have been floped but you want to be able to get away from it!
I realise the flush came but...

Your absolutely right here Ste05. i dont know how these people dont get it. sure the flush came so the proof is there you were right...:rolleyes:
i reckon a min-raise ont he flop was the best way to show strength and still get away from it. you can represent a set and hopefully, knwoing the fitz cash game someone would probably fold a smaller set => makign it less liekly your straight is out-drawn. i totally agree with everyting else though ste barr the 40 bet. super analysis!

Goodluck2me

CelticPhantom wrote:

In a cash game you want to get the most money when you are favourite

that is actually incorrect - cash games you want to get as much money in when you are a favourite AND/OR getting the odds to do so. otherwise if you were getting 5-1 on a flush draw against one opponent you would fold as technically you arent the favourite.

sikes

this thread needs to be locked, and a sub forum for sarcasm opened.

Ste05

sikes wrote:

and a sub forum for scarasm opened.

What's that, some kind of Scar appreciation forum. There is this one which I suppose might come close??
[EDIT: Ha Ha, got there before your edit!!!]

CelticPhantom wrote:

I can understand this thinking in a tourney where one bad beat can kill you, but cash games require a longer term view.

Absolutely, that's why I offered the different lines for cash and for tournament plays.

Tournament = Protect our Life at all costs.

Cash = Be aggressive but think about the long term, big lay downs are really where the money is made. Win with your big hands, lay down the second best ones... E.g. here.

I think goodluck2me put it quite well with this quote:
"that is actually incorrect - cash games you want to get as much money in when you are a favourite AND/OR getting the odds to do so. otherwise if you were getting 5-1 on a flush draw against one opponent you would fold as technically you arent the favourite."

Long term this is a losing hand. May look nice now, but not so hot in the morning... Haven't we all been there... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

sikes

yeah i fixed my spelling!

the second quote wasnt me ste, you bad man.

Ste05

Oooops, I suppose I'll get off my high horse now...

ianmc38

Yeah if he shows you the flush draw, fold the straight because he has a straight draw too, so essentially you're hoping for a chop.

phantom_lord

stevvie wrote:

i usually just read these posts but this one has angered me so much i had to create an account.Ste are you actually saying that this poster should have slow played the nuts so he could see a scare card and get away from it??you call this a ''marginal hand'' its the nuts!!i think it was played properly and it was unlucky the flush hit on the river.i thought boards was a good place to get advice but then i see this post with comments like these- ''there are sooooo many turns and rivers that will beat us.'', ''if we raise small we can fold knowing that he either had a flush draw or trips and would have probably outdrawn on the turn or River.''this is ridiculous advice, if you were completely joking fair enough

lol

Goodluck2me

ianmc38 wrote:

Yeah if he shows you the flush draw, fold the straight because he has a straight draw too, so essentially you're hoping for a chop.

exactly, at last someones puts it how i never could!:)