Do Irish employers discrimiate?

Raekwon

This is a very tricky one. I was going to start this thread in 'Accessibility & Mobility & Disability' but I thought that I would get more thought provoking responses here. But if any Mods want to move it to a more appropriate forum then feel free.

So, here it is. My cousin is 27 and working in IT. He moved to England three years ago, got a decent job in a large multinational but due to certain circumstances over there, plus the fact that he missed his family & friends, he decided to return to Dublin.

He has minor hearing loss in his left ear, but this is not really that much of a problem for him as he uses a digital hearing aid and can hear quite well, especially on the telephone.

The problem is he has been back in Ireland since October 2006 and he has still not found employment. He has been to around 15 interviews but nobody has been willing to hire him. I am bemused by this He is a very intelligent guy who has an MCSE and over three years experience as a Desktop Support Engineer in the UK. He has recently gone for 1st line support roles over here, which I think is beneath him, but his confidence has obviously been shaken from the recent job rejections so he would be willing to go below his level of expertise. But still nothing.

He is understandably feeling pretty down now and is blaming the fact that he has a slight hearing defect for his lack of work, which everybody has reassured him that this is not the case. He also stated that the fact that he wears a hearing aid in interviews might look bad and put employers off, even though he tells them that he hearing is pretty good and he even hears & answers questions very well. Btw, I put 'Irish' employers in the title because he had a job in the UK, but he seems to be in limbo over here, even though there is an employment boom in this country.

Anyway, I wanted to hear other peoples views on this? Do you think he is being discriminated against? Or do you know of anyone else who feels that they are being discriminated against with a minor disability (ie: hearing defect, speech impediment, etc.) Does all of the following; 'affirmative action', 'equal opportunities', 'discrimination act', etc. etc. actually mean anything or is it just there to save face?

mick.fr

That would be silly if they were actually doing this.
Maybe the way the CV is written is not great ? This is definitely an issue here.

I had some difficulties at some stage myself and get some advise on my CV and the day after some companies who even refused to see me a few weeks/months before called to get an appointment after I sent them my updated CV.

He could also maybe try to work as a field engineer ? Help desk is bad, really bad. He should try to get out of help desk otherwise he will stay stuck in there for a while. And employers do not recognize really technical skills when you coming from here. Simply because you have no production experience. Which is true if you did that only.

Eoin

Off the top of my head, it doesn't immediately sound like discrimination. If he only has minor loss in one ear and his hearing aid corrects this, then I think it would have been obvious to the interviewer that it wasn't an option.

It could be a simple case of companies not wanting to hire someone who is over-qualified for a 1st line support role. Has he asked for feedback from any of the interviews?

Also, quite frankly, I know people in IT who have gone an awful lot longer than 3 or 4 months before finding work. It's a lot easier to find work when you're already in a job.

Raekwon wrote:

Does all of the following; 'affirmative action', 'equal opportunities', 'discrimination act', etc. etc. actually mean anything or is it just there to save face?

Slightly OT, but I would consider "affirmative action" and "equal opportunities" opposites of each other.

leeroybrown

Of course some employers discriminate but I would say that the majority employers would be unlikely to discriminate on the basis of partial hearing loss in one ear. My opinion would be different in the case of someone who had a speech problem due to hearing loss as I think this would affect someones chances.

Even if there is a certain element of truth in your friends suspicion he should try to use it to spur him on to improve his CV, skills, interview technique, etc. As eoin_s says above he should continue to apply for the jobs he is properly qualified for and he will eventually be the best candidate and hired.

Finally, I'm also a believer that in most circumstances "affirmative action" is discrimination and a case of giving up on mandating equality.

Raekwon

mick.fr wrote:

Help desk is bad, really bad. He should try to get out of help desk otherwise he will stay stuck in there for a while.

eoin_s wrote:

It could be a simple case of companies not wanting to hire someone who is over-qualified for a 1st line support role.

Sorry I should have clarified the types of roles that he has been looking for in greater detail. He is a Desktop Support Engineer (with an MCSE, A+, Network+) and has been looking for Desktop Support & Field Engineer roles since he got back to Ireland last October. (Btw his CV is excellent hence he has been called for around 15 interviews already).

Up until a few weeks ago he has dropped his standards considerably and gone for 1st/2nd level technical support as he thinks maybe it would be easier to get his foot in the door of a company this way and work his way up to where he belongs (his thinking, not mine).

I just find it strange that such a qualified & experienced individual is finding it so difficult to find 'any' sort of job.

Some people might not think this is discrimination straight away, but let me ask you something, if my cousin had 100% perfect hearing, which obviously would result in him not needing to wear a hear aid, do you think he would be more employable?

cee_jay

He should approach some of the companies he has had interviews with and ask for feedback.
It might be he is not selling himself enough in the interviews, or coming across well during the interview.
Get feedback and ask for pointers on how he could improve

mickoneill30

Raekwon wrote:

Up until a few weeks ago he has dropped his standards considerably and gone for 1st/2nd level technical support as he thinks maybe it would be easier to get his foot in the door of a company this way and work his way up to where he belongs (his thinking, not mine).

I just find it strange that such a qualified & experienced individual is finding it so difficult to find 'any' sort of job.

1: No point applying for jobs that are obviously beneath him. Employers (smart ones anyway) will realise that at the first sign of a better job he'll be off or if that's not the case he'll end up bored.

2: I was in a similar situation last year. I came back to Ireland and needed a job. It took me a couple of months to get a decent job. I had piles of interviews (at least 3 or 4 that I was sure I did great in) and I was beginning to get fed up. The answer is to apply for every job that he can do. Keep a record of each and follow up each CV you send out.

3: Part of the time your mate has been looking in has been the silly season. Managers off, offices closed, people not worrying about hiring.

4: Your mate will get a job. In my situation I finally got a job. Since then I've gotten about 1 - 2 emails / calls from agencies each month asking about my situation for some good positions. It's always the way. They put your CV on file and start contacting you when you do get a job.

Slutmonkey57b

You'll find that Irish employers tend to be a bit lazy about hiring - they don't want to do the slog of interviewing every applicant that comes in, so they cherry pick a few of them, and if they don't see what they're looking for straight away, they'll just hang on til the next batch come in. Irish employers also have no interest whatsoever in making sure their workplace is properly staffed, so even if they're totally fcked for staff, they still won't bother employing someone unless their dream candidate falls into their lap. Also bear in mind that Irish employers go on "gut feeling" a lot when it comes to candidates, and they are quite happy to use criteria like "doesn't look like much fun in the pub" as a basis for marking a candidate unsuitable. Your cousing should rest assured that as soon as he does find a job, three or four employers he sent cv's to 3 months ago will suddenly call him desperate for interviews.

Eoin

Raekwon wrote:

Sorry I should have clarified the types of roles that he has been looking for in greater detail. He is a Desktop Support Engineer (with an MCSE, A+, Network+) and has been looking for Desktop Support & Field Engineer roles since he got back to Ireland last October. (Btw his CV is excellent hence he has been called for around 15 interviews already).

Up until a few weeks ago he has dropped his standards considerably and gone for 1st/2nd level technical support as he thinks maybe it would be easier to get his foot in the door of a company this way and work his way up to where he belongs (his thinking, not mine).

I just find it strange that such a qualified & experienced individual is finding it so difficult to find 'any' sort of job.

Some people might not think this is discrimination straight away, but let me ask you something, if my cousin had 100% perfect hearing, which obviously would result in him not needing to wear a hear aid, do you think he would be more employable?

I honestly don't know if that's the case. There are so many other factors that it could be. Not that I'm condoning that they may be discriminating against him, but it sounds like they would have very little to discriminate against in the first place. He is only affected in one ear, and the hearing aid makes up for that by your account. Surely his ability to communicate to them in the interview would have settled any of their concerns? Again - I am NOT condoning if they would discriminate against him if it didn't.

I don't know if it is allowed or not, but do you know if any of the interviewers commented on his hearing aid, and asked if it would affect his ability to do the job?

Like I said, 3 or 4 months is not an overly long time to be looking for a job. When you don't have a job during a job search, it can seem 10 times as long than if you are looking for another job while working.

It sounds good that his CV is up to scratch, but maybe his interview skills are lacking? I would certainly recommend getting feedback from some of the interviewers.

nesf

Just because he hasn't found a job yet doesn't necessarily mean that he has been discriminated against. He just mightn't have been suitable for any of the jobs, had poor interview skills or whatever. It does happen sometimes with people who you'd think should be flooded by job offers.

Was he upfront about his hearing? Did he assure his interviewer that it wasn't an issue/made jokes about it/whatever. It can make a difference and tbh there's no set way to do it. Sometimes it's best to get it out of the way in the cover letter, sometimes it's best to wait until the interview.

*shrugs*

CiaranC

I may know of something, I'll send you a PM

Raekwon

Yeah that is all very true. Btw, I think his tactic of applying for jobs beneath his expertise is a bad move, and I told him so, but he assures me that he is applying for suitable roles on a regular basis also. Plus I send him suitable roles that I see on Irishjobs.ie etc all the time, as does his mates.

As for his interview skills, he did a few mock interviews with FAS before Christmas and they said that he seemed very confident and gave all the right impressions. I also think that it is important to mention that he is always very forward about his hearing aid (mainly because he noticed people always look at it) so he always reassures employers that there is noting to worry about on that score.

To add to other posters views, the rejection IS spurring him on (although his confidence is shaken alittle). He never was one to let things get him down before, he did an MCSE on his own time and money and even moved to another country for a better opportunity. Give the guy some credit, he has always opened doors for himself through hardwork and determination. He is even thinking about doing a course in a programming language to give himself an even better edge over the competition. So the incentive to succeed is there, he just needs an employer to look past his disability and give him an opportunity.

Raekwon

eoin_s wrote:

I don't know if it is allowed or not, but do you know if any of the interviewers commented on his hearing aid, and asked if it would affect his ability to do the job?

I don't think that this is allowed, I think they could be opening themselves up for a law suit there afaik. Anyway, nobody has ever mentioned it, but like I said he always tells interviewers about his hearing aid and reassures them that he can hear with it in and that is will have no effect on his ability to do his job.

Eoin

Raekwon wrote:

I don't think that this is allowed, I think they could be opening themselves up for a law suit there afaik. Anyway, nobody has ever mentioned it, but like I said he always tells interviewers about his hearing aid and reassures them that he can hear with it in and that is will have no effect on his ability to do his job.

Cool. Personally I think it's PC gone overboard - I think it would be a quite reasonable question to ask, but glad to hear that he is answering a question that they are probably afraid to ask.

mickoneill30

To be honest. There are plenty of muppets going for interviews out there and there's plenty of competition. Where I am now they try and get the best person for the job (they still hired me though). If it means waiting for months to go through piles of candidates then that's what they do. There are plenty of jobs out there but that doesn't mean employers aren't choosey about who they put in them (I had 5 interviews for this job, I was about to give up).

I don't agree with the poster above saying that Irish employers are lazy. Irish employers want to make money and an employee is an investment. They're going to take their time over any position that is in any way complicated.
Your friends disability in one ear makes no difference to any IT job that I've ever been in or seen and if it was me interviewing it wouldn't be a factor. There are plenty of reasons to get ruled out in interviews, overconfidence, too qualified, not qualified enough, weak or embellished CV, lack of people skills, looking for too much money or just having somebody a bit better than you going for the same job.

You say he's getting called to a lot of interviews because of his CV. That's good. I had a mate who used to be called for lots of interviews and then wondered why he never got the job. After looking at his CV and questioning him I wouldn't have hired him either. He put piles of technology on his CV (even if he barely knew it) and when he was asked about these systems it was obvious he was weak. Get your mate to put a skills matrix at the end of his CV. Something simple like
Windows XP - 4 years experience - Confidence level 8.
Active Directory - 2 years experience - Confidence level 5.
Get him to do that for everything relevant.

I think your friend needs to make sure that none of those above are reasons for not getting these jobs and needs to keep plugging away. By focusing on his hearing he may be missing the real reason he's not getting these jobs. This is an anonymous forum and most people have said or implied that his hearing wouldn't be an issue for them.

Raekwon

eoin_s wrote:

Cool. Personally I think it's PC gone overboard - I think it would be a quite reasonable question to ask, but glad to hear that he is answering a question that they are probably afraid to ask.

It 'could' be reasonable for an interviewer to ask anything that they seem fit to ask a potential employee............but then again, where do you draw the line?

Employers have a responsibility not to let their judgments get misguided while hiring. If they even appear to be slightly prejudice against a candidate, be it because of the candidates sex, sexuality, race, religion or in this case disablity, then there is obviously a problem IMO.

In the case of my cousin, I think that his hearing defect could have been a determining factor behind some of the employers decision not to hire him. Maybe I am sensitive about the subject because it is close to home, but I do think discrimination/prejudice exists in the Irish work place and this statement, in some way, sums it up:

leeroybrown wrote:

Of course some employers discriminate but I would say that the majority employers would be unlikely to discriminate on the basis of partial hearing loss in one ear. My opinion would be different in the case of someone who had a speech problem due to hearing loss as I think this would affect someones chances.

Mr. Presentable

Discrimination is part of the decision making process and not to be confused with prejudice. As an employer in the environs of the IT industry I look for, in order

Ability to do the job (not necessarily qualification)
Willingness to adapt/train as required
Dependability
Personality
Loyalty
Non smoker

I'm not interested in whether a person has a disability so long as it will not impact their ability to do the job and they can get up the stairs to our offices. In fact, and I will look it up in a free moment, there may even be a grant for employers who take on disabled. I know in the Civil Service, for example, they have quotas they must reach in the employment of the disabled (3% I think).

Your cousin does not to me seem like he's disabled enough to effect his work, so I doubt that's an issue.

In my case, although I would not be allowed to ask if you are a smoker and disqualify you as a candidate if you are, I will know from your odour and disqualify you anyway. What I'm saying is, it could be one of many reasons, not least of which is a plentiful supply of potential employees who'll work for less money.

As a previous poster said, keep chipping away at the stone and eventually you'll see the elephant!

Eoin

Raekwon wrote:

It 'could' be reasonable for an interviewer to ask anything that they seem fit to ask a potential employee............but then again, where do you draw the line?

A tricky grey area. Should a furniture removal company be allowed to ask someone in a wheelchair how they would be able to manage moving furniture for (an extreme) example? But that's a topic for another thread.

Raekwon wrote:

Employers have a responsibility not to let their judgments get misguided while hiring. If they even appear to be slightly prejudice against a candidate, be it because of the candidates sex, sexuality, race, religion or in this case disablity, then there is obviously a problem IMO.

In the case of my cousin, I think that his hearing defect could have been a determining factor behind some of the employers decision not to hire him. Maybe I am sensitive about the subject because it is close to home, but I do think discrimination/prejudice exists in the Irish work place and this statement, in some way, sums it up:

As I have said twice on this thread, and at least one other person has also mentioned, get him to ask for feedback from his previous interviewers, particularly the ones where he thought he did well. I really don't think there is nearly enough evidence - from you have posted so far anyway - to think it's discrimination.

mickoneill30's post is bang on the money by the way.

BC

nipplenuts wrote:

I'm not interested in whether a person has a disability so long as it will not impact their ability to do the job and they can get up the stairs to our offices.

Legally, a disabled person does not have to be able to get up the stairs. It is your responsibility as an employer to provide access to the office for the person in question. While i'm sure it happens a lot in practice, legally you can't refuse to hire the person because they can't get up the stairs due a disability. Thats your problem not theirs.

Raekwon

Well I met up with my cousin yesterday to have a few beers/watch some footie and he informed me that he is seriously considering moving back to the UK. He apparently had a few phone interviews with some UK companies at the end of last week and they seemed rather keen to meet him, plus he was in contact with his former boss and they could have something lined up for him.

Also I took into consideration some points taken from this thread and I asked him did he get any feedback from the interviews and he said that he did, but only from a few that he was really interested in. He asked them all was his hearing an issue and most of them said that it wasn't an issue, but it is debatable if they were being honest about that or not. Interestingly he said that one company he called looking for feedback actually told him over the phone that they had some reservations about him because of his hearing but in the end it didn't matter because they hired a 'stronger candidate' instead..............one that has 100% perfect hearing no doubt. He never told me that until yesterday and that has only strengthened my belief that employers here discriminate.

I think that my cousin is only the tip of the iceberg though, there must be thousands of Irish people with different types of minor disabilities struggling to find work because of an infliction that they are unfortunately burdened with. It must be tough!