Live 1/1 Omaha Hand

Marq

A hand from 4.30 am in the Fitz 50 Omaha game.
The game is eight handed, and although it's usually 4 or 5 on the blind the game isn't playing extremely big.

Stacks:
Hero SB €350 (image: less than sober but hasn't made any mistakes)
BB €35
MP1 €600 (good LAGGGGGG)
MP2 €400 (hasn't reraised PF in our time at the table, seems TAG, but not necessarily good)

Action: Preflop
SB (Hero) posts 1, BB posts 1, UTG raises to 4 blind. UTG+1 calls 4, MP1 reraises to 20, MP2 re-reraises to 50, folded to hero who has AcKc9xTx.

Hero calls (comments????),

BB calls all-in for 35
MP1 calls.
Everyone else folds.

Flop (Main Pot 150, side pot 45):
Qc-7c-3x

Hero????


Very interested in comments on whether to bet or check this flop.

Flipper

I suppose I play a bit LAG, but here's my line. Call pre-flop is totally fine. You've flopped the nut flush draw some running straight draws and two over cards which are definatly no use. I would be 100% the MP2 has AAxx and MP1 could have a huge range - maybe mid-rundown cards. The stacks are a bit shallow for the play I would make...

My Play: Check raise all in on the flop. You'd have to assume that a weak player with AA will like this board and will pot it. Only danger is that he will have €155 left (if he does pot it) and will call for sure. With the exception of MP1 having QQxx or 77xx, there's not a lot of hands he can have that this flop suits. Best situation is that he'll bet scared and make an €80ish effort at the flop - Perfect for you as you can pot and give him plenty of cash behind to fold.

Other play (I might do this too but would depend on read on opponents left to act):
Pot the flop yourself and commit yourself if you get raised. If you just get called (for some mad reason), check fold the turn (unless you catch an improver (8 or J) and maybe if you get a discount.

I'm sure people will disagree with this but a 4:30am, I'd wanna play a big pot and have a chance of getting a real touch on the night!

BigCityBanker

Flipper wrote:

I'm sure people will disagree with this but a 4:30am, I'd wanna play a big pot and have a chance of getting a real touch on the night!

Flipper re your thread about where its all going wrong for you. Its not a race, were not sprinting to the line, we dont have to get a killing in every session, its nice if we do but its not necessary. I can relate this to gambling very easily, last race of the day a punter goes for a big touch? Why? They want a big one!! I say why not wait until tomorrow. I think you need to consider this in your overall play. Play poker, dont gamble - there is a difference.

Marq

Flipper wrote:

The stacks are a bit shallow for the play I would make...

If the stacks are much deeper I like the check-raise line, but as played the stacks are now very shallow. Also there is a player all-in, does this change things?

Doc Farrell

here's my pennys worth.

you have 300 left. you have to believe that you are behind. you have the monster flush draw but need runner runner for the straight.

if it was the 15 euro Saturday special I would chuck my chips in happily. if I was my hero Sammy Farha or a crazy student I would push chips.

but the most I'm going to do is bet 50 to try to see a cheap card. In fact I'd probably check and when the inevitable bet into me happens I would have to think hard about calling. because as expensive as the turn card is, once you call 100 on the turn you are pretty much committed to seeing that river.

so, I would play it tight I think and possibly fold to a pot bet on the flop.

if I decide to play then I'm reraising the rest of my 300 left over.

but I want to see cheap cards because, as I said in the first sentence, I have to know that I'm behind to a crappy pair of aces or possibly mid card trips.

its a gamble gamble situation for sure!

(I think you decided to play Marq and once you did you committed all your chips, if I were sitting there hour after hour I probably would too)

RoundTower

I would bet. Given your description I think there's a good chance he'll fold here which is what you want, but I doubt you will get a free card if he does have AAxx. Flipper if we bet the pot we can't exactly check fold the turn for our last 100 in a 600 pot.

Given the small reraise preflop I suppose there is a chance he will bet small on the flop if you check, which would allow him to fold to a raise. But in general I'd want to know more about the player before trying to checkraise him off for so little more.

cardshark202

I think preflop is a fold. I don't think you're deep enough to make this call vs an obvious AAxx. As played I prefer leading for pot to check-raising given the stack sizes.

Marq

Doc Farrell wrote:

(I think you decided to play Marq and once you did you committed all your chips, if I were sitting there hour after hour I probably would too)

I wasn't the hero in this hand, in fact, I was the cut-off and folded some unconnected rags pre-flop.

Hectorjelly

I think thats an awful call preflop, not even being sure of closing the action.

Doc Farrell

Marq wrote:

I wasn't the hero in this hand, in fact, I was the cut-off and folded some unconnected rags pre-flop.

ah jeese.... and to think of the brain cells I used up over the last five minutes...

RoundTower

Hectorjelly wrote:

I think thats an awful call preflop, not even being sure of closing the action.

yes and no, just before reading this I had this conversation with noted out of work degenerate bottom feeder cardshark202

Reggie says:
i think preflop is a fold in marq's hand
David says:
yeah i think so
David says:
in theory
David says:
but in practice i would never fold it in the 50 game
Reggie says:
why not?
David says:
because i have a suited ace
David says:
obv
Reggie says:
lmao
Reggie says:
its a losing play though so you should fold from now on
David says:
metagame
Reggie says:
lol lol lol in that game there is no metagame
David says:
of course there is
David says:
if people think you are nuts and they will never get you off a pot preflop
David says:
they will play differently
Reggie says:
i dont see much metagame value in calling there unless you plan to back it up by calling all sorts of ****e preflop for any amount
Reggie says:
i don't buy it
David says:
well its 50 euro
David says:
and its nearly the end of the night
Reggie says:
i think using metagame as an excuse is a bit of a cop-out
David says:
of course you should be calling all klinds of ****e
David says:
if it was online I would fold instantly

The_Chopper

Hectorjelly wrote:

I think thats an awful call preflop, not even being sure of closing the action.

I agree with this - I think calling preflop is a loosing play. You're more than likely up against AAxx or a hand like AKQJ both have you in bad shape.

However with that flop I do think you have to go with - I would just lead the flop.

fixer

do you really think that re-raise from MP2 means AAxx? in *that* game at 4:30am?

cardshark202

fixer wrote:

do you really think that re-raise from MP2 means AAxx? in *that* game at 4:30am?

Read original post.

fixer

I did. a guy who hasn't raised pf and isn't very good doesn't necessarily mean he's tight. He re-raises less than full pot here, does that sound like a TAG play? Doesn't to me, he might now be bored and feeling picked on, so he wants into some of the action.

kpnuts

I agree with others that I think this hand is a fold pre-flop given the action. However, as played, I think my line would be to check-call on flop and tank pretty much any turn that isn't a non-club Ace, 2, 3 or 7.

If turn = 4/5/6, he can put u on wrappy hand for turned str8. If turn =8/9/T/J it gives u pair and/or gutshot draw, so extra outs to go with ur NTD.

If turn = Q, he can put u on turned trips.

Only turns we don't like (or can't realistically pretend to like, having check-called on flop) are the case Ace, cards that pair the board lower than Q and deucy brick of bricks.

I'm on tilt, hope this made some sense.

Hectorjelly

I dont see why you would bet this flop. We have no pair and presumambly wont win the main pot unless we improve to a straight or flush, so betting just gives us less value if the guy folds. If we had a queen in our hand I think I would prefer a bet.

cardshark202

We bet because we want AAxx to fold. We might win the main pot by just hitting one pair.

opr

cardshark202 wrote:

We bet because we want AAxx to fold. We might win the main pot by just hitting one pair.

Is AAxx ever folding this flop to a bet ?

Edited to say - I know nothing about this silly 4 card game. It is a question not a statement

Opr

5starpool

opr wrote:

Is AAxx ever folding this flop to a bet ?

Edited to say - I know nothing about this silly 4 card game. It is a question not a statement

Opr

He really should unless he has something to match that flop too.

RoundTower

cardshark202 wrote:

We bet because we want AAxx to fold. We might win the main pot by just hitting one pair.

exactly, this is very important.

Gholimoli

cardshark202 wrote:

I think preflop is a fold. I don't think you're deep enough to make this call vs an obvious AAxx. As played I prefer leading for pot to check-raising given the stack sizes.

.

Doc Farrell

so how the hell did it end Marq?
he hit his flush only to be beaten by a full house on the river. am i right?

biteme

I got called by j8c from the original raiser. didn't see the rest of his hand.
clubs hit on the turn and my nut flush held up and won the whole pot.

I agree preflop is terrible call. Can't remember why I made it. Was pretty sure the raiser to 20 would only call the 50 though. Wouldn't make the preflop call again there. I led the flop expecting to get through and take down the side getting my original call back and have a free shot at the middle against the all in player.

Marq

As I say I wasn't involved in this hand, but there was much discussion about it afterwards. The Hero obviously called preflop, and then bet the full pot from first position.

I dislike how she played the hand from start to finish. I can understand murray's "I have a suited ace in the fitz fifty game" reasoning to some extent (I think we've all thought that many times, and it's often paid off), but I think that given the re-raiser's likely range, the call's failure to close the betting, and the fact that there will very likely be a player all-in that creates a very small sidepot, this is a clear fold out of position.

I think the presence of the sidepot and being out of position against two pre-flop aggressors are the most important reasons for folding, as they mean that if you hit the flop in any meaningful way the hand is going to be extremely difficult to play and get value out of.

On the flop, with the nut flush draw and nothing else, I think that an all-in player complicates things for us. With the stack sizes as they are, you're probably going to play for your stack if there's any action on the flop. Betting to get rid of AA is good, but the problem is that 1) our opponent doesn't always have AA here, so you're risking a lot against a possible white elephant, and 2) with a player all-in, and a possible two callers behind us, we are most likely to need to improve to win, and it's 2:1 against you doing so.

I think that betting is only correct if you are 90% sure that the re-re-raiser has AA, and the first re-raiser has no interest in this flop whatsover.

If the stacks are much deeper, or there isn't a player all-in, or you have a queen in your hand, or you're playing five card draw, then the situation is very different, and you probably should bet. But none of those things are the case, so I prefer checking. One thing I do like about checking is that in this particular situation (particularly in this game) if you hit the nut flush for free at some point in this hand, you might well get action from a worse hand.

But I really do think that the worst part about the hero's play is pre-flop. Setting yourself up for a situation where no matter what you do you're faced with a tough decision on the flop has to be had for 15% of your stack.

Oh, and Hero won hand when she hit the nuts on the turn.

Lafortezza

She? lol

DapperGent

Hectorjelly wrote:

I think thats an awful call preflop, not even being sure of closing the action.

I was pretty critical of the preflop call at the time (well not at the time later while having a smoke) both becuase our hero's hand is pretty rubbish and because the action can be reopened by our LAG. Looking at it again I think hero can be almost 100% certain that the action will be closed with a call of the extra €30 by the LAG. If LAG is any good he really can't reopen the action with any hand other than AA or KK and given how tight MP2 has been preflop I think a good LAG here doesn't rerereraise KK anyway. Also hero's holding of AK makes 2x AA impossible and KK somewhat less likely. He could get cheeky with 4567 or something but I can't see any compelling reason for him to. I think another raise here is totally unlikely.

I'm still 50/50 about the call though given that the hand is shít, out of position and almost certainly dominated. Nice odds though. I fold this sober.

The flop spot is why I really like a preflop fold. You've got yourself OOP in a huge pot against a player who will see all five cards, a likely AA/KK and a LAG with a totally undefined hand. I can see the arguements for an open pot but I really don't think I get that aggressive here. I play this ABC now, check and fold to a full pot, call any smaller bets that give me the odds. I do think you can hit the nuts and still get paid. You have clubs + 3 non club jacks to have either the nuts, or a draw thats coin tossing with set on the turn. I definately get passive here.

biteme wrote:

I agree preflop is terrible call. Can't remember why I made it.

Cos you was drunk!