Whats my move?

modmuffin

Satellite in S/e last tuesday €100 1 rebuy game

Villain in this hand John (with shaved red hair), good player, we've been at eachothers table a lot in recent weeks so would know a fair bit about eachothers game.

9 handed, blinds 75/150
I have 3.2k
john has about 6.5k
Neither of us have used our rebuy.

I raise utg+1 to 450 with JcJs
John min reraises to 900 from the co.
I call.

Flop (2025) 10d 9h 5d

I check, John bets 900

Action? Comments?

Hitman Actual

modmuffin wrote:

We've been at eachothers table a lot in recent weeks so would know a fair bit about eachothers game.

What does his min-raise mean?

Killme00

The min raise preflop in a bit strange...i smell a rat....i think i would fold....although he could have had AK preflop and wanted to get you all in, in a race..and because that didnt work he is c betting...hmmmmmm too complicated i still fold like a cheap hoe

sikes

its not a min raise.

i dont know who john is, but whats your plan by calling preflop?

If you are playing for a set, fold. Otherwise its your dream, non set making, flop and you can stick it in.

modmuffin

In the Sporting emporium this is the minimum he can raise

His raise confused me, he would generally reraise about 3.5 times the initial raise with QQ+ & AK, and calls with JJ & AQ

He knows the min raise will slow me down, it will also chase out a couple of loose players who will probably call the 450 from the blinds, so I put him on AA or AK. a medium pair was also a possibility
He is definately reraising more with KK & QQ

I called to see a flop & re-evaluate, I have a rebuy so i dont mind getting it in on a low flop

i checked to him because i believe he will cont bet 100% of the time with AK but will check behind with AA or a flopped set a lot of the time.

Hitman Actual

sikes wrote:

its not a min raise.

900 more to OP? So 1350 total?

With a quick look at the stack sizes, I don't think you should have called with the intention of folding on a non-A/K/Q flop. You definately weren't getting the implied odds for set value. Preflop I might push to his raise, and hope to get called by 99-TT, AK, AQ; only 3 hands have us 80% killed. When you just call, push that flop, or push now after picking up some money on a possible c-bet, if he does that a lot. He's probably priced in to call with overcards, but he might make a mistake by folding. And if he has an overpair, he was always ahead anyway.

kebabfest

I dont think John would make a pre-flop move like with anything else than QQ.
If he had AK it would have been a reraise all-in.
What was your table image like ? He might have been using that to his advantage.

jbravado

Ive played with John a good bit,solid player as you say very tight for the most part although he seems to be loosening up his range lately(the emporium effect).

I think there is almost no chance of you having the winner in this spot.You have to call preflop.Im not sure what line Id take now.Fold is probably best unless you want to take a card and commit yourself to firing at a scare card.

Hitman Actual

jbravado wrote:

I think there is almost no chance of you having the winner in this spot.You have to call preflop.

This makes no sense. If he was ahead preflop, he's still ahead now. If he thought villains raise pre was an OP, then he should have just folded then.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Hitman Actual

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I think that if you are determined to go to the bat with this hand I like a call and a check to him again on the turn. This is because you might induce him to fire another bullet at the pot when you are ahead. If you shove now then he will fold AK / AQ and under pairs that have not hit the board (you still have a rebuy so I don't mind gambling on the fact that he won't pair up to an overcard on the turn).

I doubt this guy is putting in any more money unless he improves, or he's ahead already. If we shove now we should get him to fold AK/AQ. And he's not putting in any more money with underpairs unless he hits his 2 outer. If you call, you're committed on any turn (but so is he, I suppose). But still, I like a push now.

modmuffin

My image would be quite good, he knows im not raiseing without a decent hand in this spot

i pushed for my remaining 2300 or so.......(mistake in op, my stack should be 3.2k)

I didnt really have a clue where i stood, but it was a good flop for me & the fact that its a rebuy definately influenced my decision

He called with AK & didnt improve

It was an unusual hand & im not sure how well or poorly either of us played it

sikes

modmuffin wrote:

In the Sporting emporium this is the minimum he can raise

ah, fair enough so.

there is nothing wrong with folding or pushing. But you have to go with your read. You are beating AK and 88 from what you say and losing to everything else.

Preflop you do have the odds to play for a set.

225+450+900=1575 so >3/1 pot odds and we have a 2.5k stack behind.

I never call. he is not bluffing again, and if we want him to bluff, we are giving him another free card to beat us. just horrible

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Hitman Actual

Now that I think about it, I'm totally confused over the stack sizes/raise amounts. I thought villain would be getting 4/1 on a push, hence why I'd like him to fold AK/AQ.

kebabfest

Have to say Surprised about the way the hand panned out.
I am surprised about John's AK play pre-flop. Obviously trying to disguise AA or KK.
Your pre-flop call is fine if you put him on AK, but not if you put him on AA-QQ.
On the flop you have to call in my opinion.
Too often you see people making a mistake preflop by calling, but then not re-evaluating on the flop. In a tourney recently I was at a table with a guy who called a raise and a reraise with As6s. (God knows what he was thinking)
Anyhow the flop comes with 2spades and yet he still folds !!
Now this is an extreme example, but I think you get where I am coming from.

modmuffin

lenny_leonard wrote:

Now that I think about it, I'm totally confused over the stack sizes/raise amounts. I thought villain would be getting 4/1 on a push, hence why I'd like him to fold AK/AQ.

Sorry for the confusion!

My push on the flop makes it 1400 more to him with the pot at 5225 (900+900+150+75+900+2300)
He may have had one diamond to go with the 2 on the board.
He also had enough of a stack behind relative to the table to gamble at this stage

Lyold, under the circumstances i think he played it ok, i was fairly confused & at first i reasoned it could only be AA and dwelled on folding preflop. Then the Gut came into play & I felt there was a reasonable chance i was ahead.

it was a pretty marginal call & i probably fold this in a freezeout like the pu$$y that i am!

jbravado

lenny_leonard wrote:

This makes no sense. If he was ahead preflop, he's still ahead now. If he thought villains raise pre was an OP, then he should have just folded then.

Johns raise before the flop prices us in.The size of the raise "looks" like aa or kk (more likely aa) but theres a chance he has ak.I think its a clear call preflop.
A "significant" raise before the flop is a fold if we do think its an overpair we are up against.

Also lenny I still have that book you lent me!Will drop it into the fitz this weekend!

cardshark202

So did he raise 450 more or 900 more? Why did you say he was a good player if he a) min raised preflop and b) called all in with ace high

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Hitman Actual

jbravado wrote:

Johns raise before the flop prices us in.The size of the raise "looks" like aa or kk (more likely aa) but theres a chance he has ak.I think its a clear call preflop.
A "significant" raise before the flop is a fold if we do think its an overpair we are up against.

Also lenny I still have that book you lent me!Will drop it into the fitz this weekend!

I haven't played in the Fitz in 6 months. (I've totally lost interest in the local tourney scene, and I'm only playing online at the moment). Don't worry about the book, you can hang on to it for a while. Or PM me if you really want to get shot of it!

Re. the hand in question, my point is that he probably still c-bets the flop with AK/AQ (like he did) as well as betting with QQ-AA, so we're still not sure if we're ahead or behind. Nothing has changed between preflop and now, so you can't really say call preflop, fold now.