Should Irish tax exiles be told to stay away?

Jackie laughlin

Should Irish tak exiles be told to stay away?

InFront

You mean emigrants?
I thought it was just the immigrants that weren't wanted, now it's anyone who leaves as well?

Victor

Whats your opinion?

Jackie laughlin

Irish people who move abroad to avoid paying Irish taxes cannot be deprived of their citizenship and cannot be prevented from entering the country under present laws. However, Irish media certainly should not celebrate their appearance at race meetings etc. Taxpaying citizens should shun them completely. Trade Unionists should consider a decision such as would instruct members not to deal with them.

InFront

The racing industry should have nothing to do with JP McManus?

The JP McManus Pro-Am golf tournament in Limerick to raise about 30 million euro in funds for Irish charities should be shunned?

The Smurfit Business School at UCD should be abandoned by academics and students because its director, Denis O Brien, is tax exile?

The largest international fundraising organization to raising funds to support programs of peace and reconciliation, arts and culture, education and community development in Ireland, "The ireland Fund", should be abandoned because Tony O Reilly is a tax exile?

The Evening Herald, Irish Independent, Sunday Independent, Sunday World and the Irish Daily Star should close down for the same reason?
Independent News and Media, with gross assets of €4.0 billion, turnover of over €1.8 billion and employs over 10,400 people worldwide, should be ignored?

Jackie laughlin

Not quite but the people you mention should be treated with disdain.

Judt

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Not quite but the people you mention should be treated with disdain.

Take their money and run, kinda thing?

Dr_Teeth

Judt wrote:

Take their money and run, kinda thing?

Well, if we take their money at least *some* of it will be taxed. :P

Jackie laughlin

The question is, should people who leave Ireland to avoid paying tax be feted as "personalities" or even as moral peple when they return to visit?

Benedict XVI

Jackie laughlin wrote:

The question is, should people who leave Ireland to avoid paying tax be feted as "personalities" or even as moral peple when they return to visit?

Surely it's up to an individual to have an opinion who is a ‘personality’ or a ‘moral person’.
If you are unhappy with these people being ‘feted as "personalities"’ then don’t take heed of the media or other outlets that fete them as so.

I have no interest in celebrity and as a result I do not read tabloids or watch the entertainment section of the TV 3 news.

It would not make a single bit of difference to me if Tony O’ Reilly, Denis O’ Brien or J.P. McManus were at the Ballinrobe races on a showery April evening.

oscarBravo

I agree with everything Benedict XVI just said.







It's a strange feeling. I'm going to lie down for a while...

purple'n'gold

Benedict XVI wrote:

Surely it's up to an individual to have an opinion who is a ‘personality’ or a ‘moral person’.
If you are unhappy with these people being ‘feted as "personalities"’ then don’t take heed of the media or other outlets that fete them as so.

I have no interest in celebrity and as a result I do not read tabloids or watch the entertainment section of the TV 3 news.

It would not make a single bit of difference to me if Tony O’ Reilly, Denis O’ Brien or J.P. McManus were at the Ballinrobe races on a showery April evening.

J P McManus is a gentleman of the highest order. And would be appalled if anyone described him as a celebrity. He donates huge amounts of money to charity most of it anonymously. He is a great ambassador for everything that is good in Ireland.

Judt

Hands up who in Ireland enjoys being taxed......... We're a nation of tax haters if ever there was one, so the government streamlined the process and made it automatic. I'm in the US at the moment and all around there's software to help you save money on your taxes, which you file yourself. If they had that for everyone in Ireland I daresay we'd all be able to quote tax laws and loopholes by rote... Therefore I don't subscribe to the idea of automatically condemning someone who has earned a lot of money for seeking the best way to manage that money; particularly if he or she happens to provide for the Irish economy in other ways (IE their business is in Ireland.)

silverharp

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Irish people who move abroad to avoid paying Irish taxes cannot be deprived of their citizenship and cannot be prevented from entering the country under present laws. However, Irish media certainly should not celebrate their appearance at race meetings etc. Taxpaying citizens should shun them completely. Trade Unionists should consider a decision such as would instruct members not to deal with them.

You have the cart before the horse, there is nothing moral about taxation, it is not a religious duty, you pay the minimum that the law allows. BTW if income tax ever goes back to what we had in the 70's I would feel wholly justified in EVADING tax as opposed to avoiding it.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Irish people who move abroad to avoid paying Irish taxes cannot be deprived of their citizenship and cannot be prevented from entering the country under present laws. However, Irish media certainly should not celebrate their appearance at race meetings etc. Taxpaying citizens should shun them completely. Trade Unionists should consider a decision such as would instruct members not to deal with them.

o be honest I think that's just jealousy. If you had €1billion+ in assets, you'd structure it so as to minimize your tax liability if you had any sense at all.

Terry

Good old Irish begrudgery.
Man makes something of himself, makes a lot of money, government decides to make him pay more tax, man moves abroad, the begrudgers come out in force.
I'm surprised Bono hasn't been mentioned yet. That greedy fecker. how dare he leave this country in order to save himself a few million quid. the cheek of him.

Victor

InFront wrote:

The Evening Herald, Irish Independent, Sunday Independent, Sunday World and the Irish Daily Star should close down for the same reason?

Do you promise? Pleeeeeeaaase!!!!!!

Sleepy

I honestly believe that tax exiles should have their passports and citizenship revoked.

If you're not prepared to pay your share of tax in your country, I don't believe you have any right to a say in it's running.

McManus and his like are scumbags imho. If they don't agree with the way the government would spend their tax why don't they help ensure the same muppets aren't elected? Why should they have the right to determine what their tax goes on (if we take their donations to Irish charities as their taxes). I can't determine that my taxes aren't paid to the unemployed/used to fund minister's pet projects in their local communities so why should those with the greatest responsibility to society get to do so? Even at that, I'd love to see an analysis of their 'charity' when contrasted with the tax bills they've dodged.

I'm not a rich bloke but I earn a reasonable salary and pay tax in the higher bracket and do so happily. It's my responsibility as an Irish citizen. Why can't these super-rich 'gentlemen' meet their social responsibilities?

oscarBravo

Sleepy wrote:

I honestly believe that tax exiles should have their passports and citizenship revoked.

If you're not prepared to pay your share of tax in your country, I don't believe you have any right to a say in it's running.

My brother hasn't lived in Ireland for the better part of 20 years. Do you feel he should have his passport and citizenship revoked? If not, what's the difference?

Sleepy

Has he emmigrated or is he merely dodging his tax liability? There's a world of a difference imho.

One person is making a new life for themselves elsewhere, another is shirking their social responsibilites.

Kinetic^

julep wrote:

Good old Irish begrudgery.
Man makes something of himself, makes a lot of money, government decides to make him pay more tax, man moves abroad, the begrudgers come out in force.
I'm surprised Bono hasn't been mentioned yet. That greedy fecker. how dare he leave this country in order to save himself a few million quid. the cheek of him.

QFT.

Surely if the system allows such behaviour and you don't like it, you should be angry at the people that implemented it? Do people who take up section 23 property annoy you too?:rolleyes:

oscarBravo

Sleepy wrote:

Has he emmigrated or is he merely dodging his tax liability? There's a world of a difference imho.

One person is making a new life for themselves elsewhere, another is shirking their social responsibilites.

Where do you draw the line?

He emigrated in the 1980s - I don't know if you're old enough to remember what income tax was like in those days. Was he making a new life for himself or dodging his tax liabilities?

Kinetic^

Sleepy wrote:

another is shirking their social responsibilites.

What exactly are these social responsibilities?

ambro25

Sleepy wrote:

Has he emmigrated or is he merely dodging his tax liability? There's a world of a difference imho.

News to me :rolleyes:

Put simply, if you change your country of residence, you become liable for tax in that country. Irrespective of whether you sit on €1bn or not.

Everything else is just down to personal € management and circumstances, when assessed under the respective tax laws of the previous country and the next one.

That's why I didn't have to pay VRT on a car I bought in the UK over a year before I moved to IE, and that's also why I had to pay VRT on a car I bought 5 months before I moved to IE. Had I known, I'd have bought that second car a month earlier. :mad:

That's why I used to be liable for tax in France / UK / Lux / many others, but not anymore in any of those for most matters (some remain, depends on what type of assets/where/local tax legislation) and now I'm 'mainly' liable for tax in IE.

Basically, the more assets, and the more jurisdictions in which they're spread, the more complicated it gets.

It's not so simple as "Booo, they don't pay their dues, off with their heads". That's just socialistic/communistic populist nonsense.

EDIT: and when I see (i) how my tax money is being wast...sorry, spent on these shores, considering I can't vote and have anything to say about it, and (ii) how much in profit the current GVT allegedly is in terms of revenue, I really can't see what difference an extra €1bn or so is gonna make. Just more dosh to waste on so-mismanaged-it's-beyond-laughable white elephants around Dublin.

Jackie laughlin

Oscar,
Your brother clearly emigrated in the 80s. Jobs were scarce then, many people went. They are not tax exiles and you know that very well.

Benedict and Oscar, There is no merit in ignorance of any kind. You should be familiar with celebrity culture. It is an important component of today's world.

stepbar

Look lets not be rash here, Ok there are some people who prefer to be "tax exiles", however I think that for the likes of Denis O'Brien and JP McManus its all about saving the few quid so that they can keep those loans paid. I dont believe these lads are as wealthy as we make them out to be. Ballsed up in debt, lots of cash flow = tax exile However the likes of Micheal O'Leary couldnt give a sh1te if he paid tax here there or else where, he's got too much money and doesnt really know what to do with it. Mammy prob told him when he was younger to save for everything you want and dont owe the bank man anything.

Mind you in all seriousness, if I was loaded and paid any more than 20mil in tax a year, id want an itemised bill, seeing the Gov are pritty good as squandering it. Imagine handing over 20 mil to that shower of jokers, sickening :mad:

ambro25

Jackie laughlin wrote:

You should be familiar with celebrity culture. It is an important component of today's world.

Do you buy 'Now' perchance? Can you tell me what B.Pitt and A.Jolie have been up to this week? Seen the latest Prada creation worn by P.Hilton? Which boy band reject has been talked up this week for his come-back then?

Jesus... How much more asinine do you want "today's world" to become ?

oscarBravo

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Your brother clearly emigrated in the 80s. Jobs were scarce then, many people went. They are not tax exiles and you know that very well.

I see a suggestion here that "tax exiles" should be stripped of citizenship and passports. In order to do so, it's absolutely necessary to codify the difference between an emigrant and a tax exile - something I've yet to see any clarity on.

Jackie Laughlin wrote:

Benedict and Oscar, There is no merit in ignorance of any kind. You should be familiar with celebrity culture. It is an important component of today's world.

It's a large and growing component of today's world. I completely fail to see its importance.

Jackie laughlin

Tax exiles tend not to emigrate. They come and go from the country in careful compliance with residency rules and/or they maintain funds and/or business out of the country which could be kept here were they not trying to avoid routine taxes which they rest of us pay.

I don't want to pull the thread off topic but to dismiss celebrity culture is wilful ignorance. No, of course I'm not suggesting a detailed knowledge of the lives such people but a general knowledge of the reach and importance of the phenomenon is important. Celebrity creates role models.

Kinetic^

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Celebrity creates role models.

Jade Goody is mine Moving on swiftly......

There's loads of tax exiles out there, some who don't make the headlines, do you think they should be named? and shamed if you're against it?

oscarBravo

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Tax exiles tend not to emigrate. They come and go from the country in careful compliance with residency rules and/or they maintain funds and/or business out of the country which could be kept here were they not trying to avoid routine taxes which they rest of us pay.

I'm still looking for a legally valid distinction.

Jackie laughlin wrote:

...to dismiss celebrity culture is wilful ignorance.

Correct.

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Celebrity creates role models.

That's not necessarily a good thing.

MadsL

My wife is still assessed for US taxes by the IRS despite not having lived there for six years. It takes a lot of work (and expense) by a Certified Private Accountant to reduce or negate this liability. Are you proposing that Ireland implements the same punitive double-taxation?

Sleepy

Kenny 5 wrote:

What exactly are these social responsibilities?

I think this question is the most valid to the core of this thread. IMHO, one's responsibility to society increases with one's power and financial status. I don't think this is an unusual belief and it's what we base our system of progressive taxation upon: one contributes to the exchequer according to ability to pay.

OscarBravo, my differentiation between a tax exile and an emmigrant would be on the nature of their time spent in Ireland. An emmigrant returns to Ireland to visit their family and friends. An exile returns to Ireland many times a year to not only spend time with family and friends but to conduct a significant part of their business from their country of origin. An emmigrant may send a few business emails from home whilst holidaying here or even return a number of times a year to conduct business with Irish clients etc. but I don't think any reasonable person could expect them to pay tax in this country on this basis.

It is on this basis that I would form any law dealing with tax exiles. If one is an Irish citizen and conducts more than a few weeks (maybe even a month) of their own business in this country they should be paying tax here.

I don't see this as a form of begrudgery. I'm proud to see businessmen like Michael O' Leary et al make fortunes out of hard work and talent in this country and abroad. It's when they decide that their wealth and sizeable tax liabilities on their even more sizeable incomes entitles them to skip the country for 186 days of the year and declare themselves eligible for tax in Guam :rolleyes:

The tax burden in Ireland, as measured by Forbes Misery Index, is lower than most of the world. We currently score 4th lowest in Europe in terms of total tax revenue as a perecentage of GDP so it's not like they can claim to be punitively taxed as could have been argued in the 80's. [source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland#International_Comparison]. Hell, U2 even had a large chunk of their income untaxed due to our cushy tax regime.

Voipjunkie

sean_keevey wrote:

o be honest I think that's just jealousy. If you had €1billion+ in assets, you'd structure it so as to minimize your tax liability if you had any sense at all.

Thats fine but then they should refrain from lecturing Irish people how their taxes should be spent.
I'm particularly think of people Like Bono and Dennis O'Brien who are never short in telling us we should spend more on Third World Aid or people with disabilities but quickly leave the country when they might have to contribute themselves to the money for those areas.

Jackie laughlin

I find Sleepy's post spot on.

However, I'm not advocating stripping these people of their citizenship or taking any other action which requires a legal distinction. I'm saying that they should not be feted (treated as personalities) in Ireland.

A Dub in Glasgo

Jackie laughlin wrote:

However, I'm not advocating stripping these people of their citizenship or taking any other action which requires a legal distinction.

Really, on what basis are you going to tell them to 'stay away'?

Should Irish tak exiles be told to stay away?

Sleepy

Like A Dub in Glasgow says, how elese would we tell tax exiles that their behaviour is not on? People are feted as celebrities for the most stupid of reasons in this culture (Jade Goody being exhibit A for the defense).

If, however, it is seen that there is something to lose by shirking one's responsibilities; to the point where the rest of one's countrymen no longer consider you to be one of them, where the act of avoiding one's tax liabilities through residence in another country becomes 'un-Irish': public opinion of these individuals will be very different.

luckat

Tax exiles and emigrants aren't the same thing. An emigrant works and is taxed in the country s/he has moved to.

A tax exile is a wealthy person who is resident in Ireland and moves his (usually) assets abroad to avoid paying tax here, sometimes also dodging in and out of Ireland to make sure not to be here for the minimum number of days that would allow him to be taxed here.

To my mind, the question is one of how committed one is to one's country. When I make my millions, I may have a different view on patriotism, of course, but currently my opinion is that if you're living in Ireland, you should really be involved, be talking about how taxes are spent, and be paying at least a proportion of one's taxes!

One question is why it's actually more profitable for U2 to move their assets abroad as soon as the artists' exemption happened. (I know they said they didn't take advantage of this tax break - maybe it was coincidental that they moved their money just after it.)

Ireland's wealthy seem to spend most of their time hanging around the star****ing crowd, getting glossy pictures in the likes of Hello!, and not engaging in any chat about the infrastructure, the health services, Irish education (and why teaching is so bad that we have a shocking rate of functional illiteracy), lack of opportunities for the deprived, and other things that their millions could help to fix.

I'm delighted when these millionaires give millions to charity, by the way. I just wish one of their charities was the Irish exchequer!

oscarBravo

luckat wrote:

Tax exiles and emigrants aren't the same thing. An emigrant works and is taxed in the country s/he has moved to.

So a tax exile is a "wealthy person" (I'll come back to this) who moves to another country, doesn't work there and doesn't pay tax there? How does that work, exactly?

luckat wrote:

A tax exile is a wealthy person who is resident in Ireland and moves his (usually) assets abroad to avoid paying tax here, sometimes also dodging in and out of Ireland to make sure not to be here for the minimum number of days that would allow him to be taxed here.

How do you define "wealthy"? Also, the bit about not being here for the minimum number of days to be taxed directly contradicts the bit about being resident here.

Zombrex

oscarBravo wrote:

So a tax exile is a "wealthy person" (I'll come back to this) who moves to another country, doesn't work there and doesn't pay tax there? How does that work, exactly? How do you define "wealthy"? Also, the bit about not being here for the minimum number of days to be taxed directly contradicts the bit about being resident here.

I would imagine a "tax exile" is defined as a citizen of Ireland who spends less than 183 days (or what ever it is in Ireland) in a given tax year in the country for the purposes of avoiding paying tax at Irish rates while still continuing to avail of the country and its services, such as still owning houses and assest here, and being resident here for a sizeable proportion of the 183 days (if not all of it)

Classically this was confined to wealthy people who could afford the travel expenses and the ownership of multiple dwellings to be able to do this.

I agree with you that such a definition is very objective and could not be used to criminally prosecute anyone, nor should it be used to strip someones citizenship.

But it wouldn't any way, since that would be ignoring the point of this rule.

It is simply a reflect the idea that if someone doesn't live here for most of the year they don't have to pay tax here. Just like if you don't have a TV you don't pay the TV license.

I think the problem with public perception of this is that tax exiles often continue to avail of services of their native country, often spending nearly all of the 183 days in the country and then nipping off just before they would have to pay tax. As such they are seen abusing the system, having the benefit of living in Ireland without paying anything to the culture and society. People feel that given the choice you should pay tax to the country you call home.

The answer to that of course is to lower the number of days you have to spending in Ireland to pay tax. If an Irish citizen had to pay tax in Ireland if they were resident for 50 days or more I would imagine you would get a sharp drop in the number of tax exiles.

Whether or not anyone would feel it necessary to do that is debatable.

Judt

Well, where do you draw the line... If I spend 7 months working outside of the country and so don't have to pay tax here, am I an exile or a victim of circumstance? How, precisely, do you draw a line in the law that says "If X equals Y then a person is an Exile" - how much do I have to earn, or how do you codify my intentions into a law without providing runarounds and loopholes; or do you create such a tight law that there's no room for genuine Irish people to hang onto their citizenship if they dare to work outside of Ireland?

Also, would there be a clause for, say, a business person who doesn't want their wealth taxed in Ireland; but whose business in Ireland creates significant wealth in the country? Etc.

Etc. Tax exiles are, as they say, a cost of doing business in a rich country the same as tax itself is a cost of doing business for the rest of us. Sometimes you just have to sigh, say f**k it and carry on - to hunt down and scalp tax exiles would cost the country more than the satisfaction would bring Average Joe Tax Payer.

Sleepy

Wicknight wrote:

The answer to that of course is to lower the number of days you have to spending in Ireland to pay tax. If an Irish citizen had to pay tax in Ireland if they were resident for 50 days or more I would imagine you would get a sharp drop in the number of tax exiles.

Whether or not anyone would feel it necessary to do that is debatable.

Exactly what I'd like to see if I'm level-headed about it. The 'stripping citizenship' remark came from the disgust I feel when I look at the likes of McManus and O'Brien who couldn't honestly claim to need the money they're saving through their exile status.

The tax revenue lost to the exchequer through the actions of those two 'gentlemen' alone would make such legislation worth passing.

Jackie laughlin

I've never been to a race meeting in my life. However, should I go and should I see a tax exile there, enjoying Irish company, I promise that I will go over and tell him/her loudly that they should be ashamed of themselves and I will tell their companions that they should have more self respect than to mix with such people.

When Jade Goody appears in the media, she is usually captioned explicitly. When these tax evaders appear, they are usually captioned positively without mention of "tax exile" flitting into the country to enjoy the benefits. I promise in future that I will complain and seek accurate captioning.

They should be harangued by Irish people and Irish media.

oscarBravo

Jackie laughlin wrote:

When Jade Goody appears in the media, she is usually captioned explicitly.

Is she? What title is she given?

Jackie laughlin wrote:

When these tax evaders appear, they are usually captioned positively without mention of "tax exile" flitting into the country to enjoy the benefits. I promise in future that I will complain and seek accurate captioning.

I've yet to see a definitive definition of a "tax exile". How can you expect such a beast to be captioned unless there's a clear-cut definition?

As an aside, tax evasion (as opposed to tax avoidance) is, in my understanding, a crime. Do you have evidence that the people you're referring to have broken tax laws?

Sleepy

OscarBravo, I thought my definition of a tax exile above was pretty clear. Did you miss it?

oscarBravo

Sleepy wrote:

OscarBravo, I thought my definition of a tax exile above was pretty clear. Did you miss it?

You mean this:

Sleepy wrote:

If one is an Irish citizen and conducts more than a few weeks (maybe even a month) of their own business in this country they should be paying tax here.

It seems a fraught definition to me.

Let's take my brother again. After working his way up from bar work, building sites etc - the usual Paddy in the Eighties story - he's now a part-owner of his business, dealing with big companies like BT and GM.

Suppose they land a big contract with (say) Intel, and it requires that he spend several weeks working onsite in Leixlip. Seems to me he's inadvertantly become a tax exile by your working definition, and in danger of public verbal abuse if he should happen to meet Jackie Laughlin.

Sleepy

I suppose it would depend on the definition of 'several weeks' really and whether or not a proper system was put in place (fairytale with the Irish Civil Service I know) to to grant exceptions for those who are genuinely only home on a once off basis every few years. If your brother were to be spending 3 months of each year or so living and working in this country I honestly don't see it as unreasonable to expect him to pay his taxes on any income earnt here within those three months.

InFront

Me neither. I'm not in favour of this 'public shaming' of tax exiles, but I would be of the opinion that even if you're only working here for one month of the year, that's going to be just under 10% of your working year, depending on the industry youre in. For something like the horseracing sales industry, it's even higher.

I don't think it's unreasonable that someone would be expected to contribute something to the country from which their industry draws its income for that length of time, especially if it is on a periodic basis.

oscarBravo

Sleepy wrote:

I suppose it would depend on the definition of 'several weeks' really and whether or not a proper system was put in place (fairytale with the Irish Civil Service I know) to to grant exceptions for those who are genuinely only home on a once off basis every few years. If your brother were to be spending 3 months of each year or so living and working in this country I honestly don't see it as unreasonable to expect him to pay his taxes on any income earnt here within those three months.

The problem is that it has to be codified so that it's entirely consistent, predictable and fair. You mention 3 months of each year or so - what does that mean? If he spends three months of this year on a one-off project and never comes back, should he be taxed? What should he be taxed on? His salary (paid from his company's UK bank account into his UK bank account, even while he's over here)? His company's profit (which is already subject to UK corporation tax)?

I'm not raising these questions to be difficult or because I'm vehemently opposed to your basic point. They go to the heart of the matter. It's one thing to sit at home and tut tut when J P McManus appears on the TV, but it's another thing entirely to legislate for such an ephemeral concept as a "tax exile".

Zombrex

At the end of the day tax exiles aren't doing anything wrong, because we have already decided that it is not fair that someone who is not in the country for more than 183 (English figure, can find the Irish one, but you get the point) should have to pay tax.

As I said before if people disagree with that figure then we should lower it.

Saying that some people who are not in the country for more than 183 are grand, but others are not, is rather illogical. If a person doesn't spend 183+ days in Ireland then the government don't ask them for tax.

I mean who here pays more tax than they are actually required to do? I pay the tax that the tax office tell me to pay. I've never gone "Umm, I think the rate I'm on should be higher, I think I will drop a little extra in for the government"

If people don't agree with the length of time that a person should have to pay tax they should want it lowered. But saying we should punish people, or even get mad at them, for simply following the law is rather illogical.

If someone banged on my door and said "You, you only paid 4,000 in tax there. That is a disgrace!" I would reply "That is what the government told me to pay". If they replied "Yes but you should pay more!" I would tell them to talk to the government, not me.

old boy

the vast majority of us cannot afford to leave to avoid paying tax, which means we have to stay and shell out, if people leave to avoid paying tax then they should stay out, if they arrange publicity stunts to raise money for charity, why not pay their tax here and then arrange the stunts as well, these people are not coming back to please any one, only their own egos and the publicity machine they orchachest (forgive my spelling)