Dublin outer orbital motorway included in new NDP today

darkman2

As the title suggests thats the rumour going around. We will know later. Wonder what number it gets:D

Its likely to go from Dundalk through Navan and onto Wickow.

Bards

probably something linke the M60......and even further out Dublin will have a third orbital motorway called the Atlantic Corridor:D

Alun

darkman2 wrote:

Its likely to go from Dundalk through Navan and onto Wickow.

If it's going to Wicklow there's the small matter of a National Park and some mountains in the way! What are they going to do .. run a motorway through Glendalough, or convert the Sally Gap road to HQDC or something? If you came around in a large enough sweep you might make Arklow, I suppose.

loyatemu

hard to see how they are going to get it to wicklow - if they go north of the mountains it will be practically beside the M50, south of the mountains and it'll be an extra 100 miles.

as for going over the mountains - they might as well send a personal letter to every eco-warrior in western europe if thats the plan...

Alun

loyatemu wrote:

as for going over the mountains - they might as well send a personal letter to every eco-warrior in western europe if thats the plan...

Right, although ploughing a motorway through the middle of a National Park might incense a wider range of people than the usual crusties, including myself, I might add!

bk

I'm not sure if an Outer Ring road is such a great idea.

I'd rather see the Eastern Bypass completed, Dublin Port moved out of Dublin and the port tunnel opened up to general traffic.

Also more rail based (Dart, Metro, etc.) public transport.

BendiBus

Alun wrote:

If it's going to Wicklow there's the small matter of a National Park and some mountains in the way! What are they going to do ..

A tunnel under the mountains?

Bogger77

Was it supposed to be

M1 probably near Duleek, N2 north of Slane, N3/M3 Near Navan, N4/M4 near Enfield/Clonard, M7/M9 Naas near Naas with maybe a link to the Blessington road?

Slice

bk: I'd rather see the Eastern Bypass completed, Dublin Port moved out of Dublin and the port tunnel opened up to general traffic.

Also more rail based (Dart, Metro, etc.) public transport.

Agree - like who exactly would an outer orbital route benefit?

As the article on the previous NDP in the Irish Times today points out few things on infrastructure are actually completed within the timeframe of the NDP - so just because the orbital route is going to be in the next one doesn't mean it will get built

Bogger77

Slice wrote:

Agree - like who exactly would an outer orbital route benefit?

As the article on the previous NDP in the Irish Times today points out few things on infrastructure are actually completed within the timeframe of the NDP - so just because the orbital route is going to be in the next one doesn't mean it will get built

people trying to get from anywhere other than Dublin to somewhere other than Dublin.

Have you travelled on the M51/N52 routes from Dundalk/Drogheda to Mullingar/Nenagh. The amount of HGV's, buses and car's travelling between Cork/Limerick/Galway and Dundalk/Belfast is scary, esp considering the state of the road and the amount of towns/smaller villages it passes through.

An upgraded N62 is needed to link the new M6 with the M7 and M8 (when completed) to improve safety. The N52 will be fully upgraded from Mullingar to Birr, when the M6 link is complete to Tullamore.

The current system is too radial, and doesn't allow for easy cross country travel.

RadarControl

All this is a pre-election stunt to aid in marginal seats. Alot of what is included was in the previous plan. Could see the outer orbital route been motorway or HCDC as far as Naas and then link road to N81. They then are able to say they did what they promised. Between FF and PDs they have broken nearly every promise they have made in relation to transport. We are getting there but not quick enough. The others are nothing to shout about either.

seamus

Slice wrote:

Agree - like who exactly would an outer orbital route benefit?

Well, I think this is one of the main problems that our infrastructure has suffered from up to now. Waiting until something is badly needed, and the attempting to patch it into place.

A Dublin outer orbital motorway probably wouldn't be much use (let's be honest here, the M50 is almost on the Dublin border at some points anyway). A leinster orbital road may be more useful. Say a motorway which joins Drogheda, Navan, Portlaoise (or Kildare), Carlow, then hits the N81, becomes the M81 and goes all the way down to Wexford.

I have absolutely no doubt that such a road would do wonders for the economy of the South East - You could bring your ships into Wexford, and have the produce in Northern Ireland in a matter of Hours, and vice-versa.
If you then complete Motorway links between Dublin and all the major cities, and add a second orbital route linking Donegal - Sligo - Athlone - Limerick, you could pretty much land products in any port in the country and have them in any other county in four hours or less. People & Companies wouldn't then be so hesitant to move out of Dublin - it wouldn't take that long to get home to Dublin if you need to, and no matter where you locate your company you're not going to feel isolated or excluded from your target market.

The Swordsman

Bogger77 wrote:

people trying to get from anywhere other than Dublin to somewhere other than Dublin.

Have you travelled on the M51/N52 routes from Dundalk/Drogheda to Mullingar/Nenagh. The amount of HGV's, buses and car's travelling between Cork/Limerick/Galway and Dundalk/Belfast is scary, esp considering the state of the road and the amount of towns/smaller villages it passes through.

An upgraded N62 is needed to link the new M6 with the M7 and M8 (when completed) to improve safety. The N52 will be fully upgraded from Mullingar to Birr, when the M6 link is complete to Tullamore.

The current system is too radial, and doesn't allow for easy cross country travel.

And it would help alleviate traffic on the two busiest roads in the country i.e M50 and the Naas dual cabbage way.

Ice_Box

It says
"Feasibility and planning work on the Eastern Bypass and on a new Outer Orbital Road to serve the Gateway;"

Its 265 pages long
http://www.ndp.ie/documents/ndp2007-2013/NDP-2007-2013-English.pdf

Slice

Bogger77: people trying to get from anywhere other than Dublin to somewhere other than Dublin.

That's the same argument that could be used in favour of the Atlantic Corridor or the proposed dual-carriageway between Sligo and Dundalk - but they never do because there's no perceived benefit to Dublin. Who is to say that the same kind of rezoning abuses along the M50 would not re-occur with this outer orbital motorway to the detriment of its users? At least if such questionable rezoning decisions are made in the regions and not in the greater Dublin area then it wouldn't at the same time make unbalanced development any worse than it already is.

Zoney

This NDP document is quite high-level, and doesn't really have much more to add wrt. road transport at any rate. See NSS and Transport 21.

Existing projects (interurbans, etc.) all mentioned, and the acceleration of delivering N18 Galway-Ennis. Also the N52 is mentioned as needing attention, and in the map in the appendices, the as vital N80 is also highlighted. These two routes are an "outer outer" bypass of Dublin.

No concrete projects in this document - it is aspiration not definitive future work.

I have no doubt that some of it will happen - it seems that further to current projects (interurban, atlantic corridor), certain national secondary routes and regional/local roads will come in for attention.

b3t4

I can't say I'm as well versed as the rest of ye are in all of this but does any one else notice the pattern that I do.

1st there was the north and south circular road. Dublin grew these aren't enough.
2nd the m50 is built. Dublin grew it can't handle things
3rd they propose another ring road.

I mean if a ring road didn't work the first two times then it's not going to work this time and surely something else could be done .

Would pumping the money into public transport (that people actually want and will use) not be a better idea as this could potentially cut the number of cars on the road and therefore cut down the traffic on these routes??

Or perhaps develop the other counties in this country so that Dublin isn't the bee all and end all of everything.

The above is only a suggestion as I'm no expert in these matters.
A

Bogger77

b3t4 wrote:

I can't say I'm as well versed as the rest of ye are in all of this but does any one else notice the pattern that I do.

1st there was the north and south circular road. Dublin grew these aren't enough.
2nd the m50 is built. Dublin grew it can't handle things
3rd they propose another ring road.

I mean if a ring road didn't work the first two times then it's not going to work this time and surely something else could be done .

Would pumping the money into public transport (that people actually want and will use) not be a better idea as this could potentially cut the number of cars on the road and therefore cut down the traffic on these routes??

Or perhaps develop the other counties in this country so that Dublin isn't the bee all and end all of everything.

The above is only a suggestion as I'm no expert in these matters.
A

I travel the road from Athlone to the Belfast quite often, and it's usually a case of daylight travelling the short route (Armagh/Monaghan/Cavan), or night time travel via Dundalk/Drogheda. I know of private buses that travel at nite from Athlone to Belfast to catch Stranraer ferry via the M50, adding 25% to the journey but allowing a safer and smoother trip for passengers. That shouldn't have to happen.

The idea behind the outer orbital is to make it a Dublin bypass, the North/South circulars weren't a bypass, the M50 wasn't a bypass, they both were designed to move traffic from narrow streets and roads that linked Dublin subhurbs to wider roads which then became congested, the same mistakes with the M50 were done with the Circular roads, example Phibsboro shopping center.

Proper planning needs to be implemented to regulate the growth of shopping centres/retail parks at the junctions to ensure a good flow of traffic, but that should apply to all roads, old and new.

ardmacha

What is needed is to move Dublin port to Skerries or thereabouts, and make this the North-East terminus of a new orbital which should go to the M7/M9 intersection. While this wouldn't cater for Wicklow traffic a route from the M9 could be devised to Rosslare. The southern part of the M50 may not become as crowded as it has a mountain on one side of it.

AM

Bogger77 wrote:

I travel the road from Athlone to the Belfast quite often, and it's usually a case of daylight travelling the short route (Armagh/Monaghan/Cavan), or night time travel via Dundalk/Drogheda. I know of private buses that travel at nite from Athlone to Belfast to catch Stranraer ferry via the M50, adding 25% to the journey but allowing a safer and smoother trip for passengers. That shouldn't have to happen.

I travel the same N55/N54 route (rallying test course?) although I've found it's much easier at night when the HGVs are, mostly, finished for the day. After recently moving to Moate it's now more worthwhile for me to go north, again at night, via N6/M4/M50/M1/A1 and pay the 3 tolls. The safety aspect of the motorways is certainly a better option in winter.

I used to travel via the N52 but got too dizzy from all the bends on that particular "road".

An outer orbital would be a relief not just for non-Dublin bound traffic but for Dublin traffic too. If I'm not in Dublin because there's a bypass than I'm not adding to congestion there. The radial aspect of current motorway development can only make matters worse for Dublin until viable alternatives exist.

Flukey

In truth there was very little in the NDP, in most of its aspects, that we did not know about. Old promises (many of which were broken), repackaged. A few things missing, that really should be there. On rail for example, a direct line from Dublin to Derry, via mid-Ulster. Ideally as an extension of a line going to Meath, or even just going from Dundalk. The oft debated here, full opening of the Western Rail Corridor.

Mushy

I can't say I'm as well versed as the rest of ye are in all of this but does any one else notice the pattern that I do.

1st there was the north and south circular road. Dublin grew these aren't enough.
2nd the m50 is built. Dublin grew it can't handle things
3rd they propose another ring road.

I mean if a ring road didn't work the first two times then it's not going to work this time and surely something else could be done .

Good point. Putting these roads in allows for further expansion on either side of the motorway, which makes it unable to cope. This atlantic Corridor, its gonna have to go Belfast->Rosslare via Galway or something at this rate

Zoney

I really think that irrespective of any "outer orbital" or bypass, the N52 should be upgraded to a decent quality road for its entire length. Probably what that particular corridor needs is along the capacity lines of 2+1. People would certainly use it a *lot* if it were upgraded. There is a lot of cross-island freight in particular (some of which used to go by rail and avoid clogging up multi-purpose roads with HGVs... *scowl*)

Flukey

The best solution for Dublin's traffic problems is partly what the NDP focuses on, and the spatial strategy: Get more people working and living away from Dublin. If more of the long distance commuters were able to work locally, that would help. If there were more jobs outside Dublin, some of the non-Dubs might return to the places they'd come from and would have preferred to stay in. That would leave some vacant property in Dublin into which some of the long distance commuters could move, naturally shortening their journeys.

I don't favour decentralisation as proposed by the government, but we do need to develop the regions a lot more and get more people living and working in them. Both the regions and Dublin would benefit, if it could be done. Therein lies the problem. Unfortunately where the NDP and Spatial Strategy are concerned: don't hold your breath.

Lennoxschips

an outer ring road will only make things worse. ireland is run by muppets!

loyatemu

Flukey wrote:

In truth there was very little in the NDP, in most of its aspects, that we did not know about. Old promises (many of which were broken), repackaged. A few things missing, that really should be there. On rail for example, a direct line from Dublin to Derry, via mid-Ulster. Ideally as an extension of a line going to Meath, or even just going from Dundalk. The oft debated here, full opening of the Western Rail Corridor.

a new line to Derry would be crazily expensive - it would probably be cheaper to upgrade the existing line via belfast to 100 mph running (can't be much more than 200 miles?)

The Swordsman

Mushy wrote:

Good point. Putting these roads in allows for further expansion on either side of the motorway, which makes it unable to cope.

If we need a road, then a road should be built. If subsequent expansion makes the road unable to cope, then don't let such expansion take place.

Flukey - your post re the NSS is an interesting one. The problem with the theory behind it is the fact that Dublin is already too big and is expanding all the time. To make the NSS work most effectively, you need either to stop development altogether in Dublin or limit it very strictly. Can't see it happening myself.

Zebra3

Of course they could always lift the barriers on the toll on the M50 which would causes so much of the traffic problems instead of building another road which will be full in another few years..

DubTony

The obvious solution is the M52, effectively replacing the N52.
Start at the M1 between Dundalk and Drogheda and head east toward Ardee, turning south west to a junction with the M3 between Kells and Navan. Carry on toward the M4 and N6 junction east of Mullingar and south toward Portlaoise and connect with the M7 and offer access to the the N8. Then head south east to a point between Carlow and Kilkenny joining the M9 and on to the N11 somewhere near Gorey.

Sorted. I'm available for consultancy work.

As for who would use it? There are people I know personally who travel from Kells to Naas via the M50 because the alternatives are some of the most horrifying drives anywhere in the world. How many people, from places like Dunshaughlin, Drogheda, Ardee, Navan, Carlow, Kildare, etc. who don't need to go anywhere near Dublin, actually use the M50 to complete these non Dublin journeys? This is the problem with the "all roads lead to Dublin" planning that we've had in the past.

Want to get from Belfast to Cork? Take the M1 and the M50. Queue for an hour to get to the Red Cow junction and then take the N7 and the N8. Or take the M1, the M52 and the N8, and get there in half the time. Now there's a road people wouldn't mind paying a toll or three to use.

The Swordsman

DubTony wrote:

The obvious solution is the M52, effectively replacing the N52.
Start at the M1 between Dundalk and Drogheda and head east toward Ardee, turning south west to a junction with the M3 between Kells and Navan. Carry on toward the M4 and N6 junction east of Mullingar and south toward Portlaoise and connect with the M7 and offer access to the the N8. Then head south east to a point between Carlow and Kilkenny joining the M9 and on to the N11 somewhere near Gorey.

Sorted. I'm available for consultancy work.

As for who would use it? There are people I know personally who travel from Kells to Naas via the M50 because the alternatives are some of the most horrifying drives anywhere in the world. How many people, from places like Dunshaughlin, Drogheda, Ardee, Navan, Carlow, Kildare, etc. who don't need to go anywhere near Dublin, actually use the M50 to complete these non Dublin journeys? This is the problem with the "all roads lead to Dublin" planning that we've had in the past.

Want to get from Belfast to Cork? Take the M1 and the M50. Queue for an hour to get to the Red Cow junction and then take the N7 and the N8. Or take the M1, the M52 and the N8, and get there in half the time. Now there's a road people wouldn't mind paying a toll or three to use.

Good post. What are your rates?

If part of Dublin Port is moved to Bremore, as proposed, this should be the starting point for the new road. It could connect up to the suggested M52. It would be pointless IMO to move the port and then force it's traffic back into Dublin and onto the M50.

'Wouldn't mind paying a toll' - Are you mad?;)

Flukey

loyatemu wrote:

a new line to Derry would be crazily expensive - it would probably be cheaper to upgrade the existing line via belfast to 100 mph running (can't be much more than 200 miles?)

It is not just the start and end point that is important. This comes up so often when people talk about roads, rail or even bus routes. It is not just the first and last stops that they serve. Most users of services with lots of stops get on after the first stop and off before the last one.

A direct line to Derry from Dublin, would not just serve people going to Derry from Dublin or vice versa. As I said it would also serve a lot of people in Meath, and in the same way, right up through the route it would take. It could be someone going from Meath to Tyrone, or any two points along the line you care to pick. They are screaming out for a better rail service from Meath to Dublin. A line between Dublin and Derry would serve those people. Do work on the Dublin to Belfast and Belfast to Derry line as you suggest, but they don't serve a large area of the country that want to travel. Look at a rail map of Ireland and between the Dublin-Belfast Line and the Dublin-Sligo line there is nothing. Thats a whole area of the north-midlands, north Leinster and mid-Ulster that have not got a service. There are thousands of people travelling by road in those areas that would use a rail line if there was one. Give Meath its rail link to Dublin and then keep going and serve the people beyond that.

Zebra3

DubTony wrote:

How many people, from places like Dunshaughlin, Drogheda, Ardee, Navan, Carlow, Kildare, etc. who don't need to go anywhere near Dublin, actually use the M50 to complete these non Dublin journeys?

And why don't they use it? Because of the jams caused by the toll.

jesus_thats_gre

Lennoxschips wrote:

an outer ring road will only make things worse. ireland is run by muppets!

Why would it make things worse?



I personally am for such a plan in principle. The person who made the point about going from Belfast to Cork via Dublin summed up the problem perfectly. If people do not need to go near Dublin on their journey, they should be given the oppurtunity and even encouraged to avoid it completely.

DubTony

The Swordsman wrote:

If part of Dublin Port is moved to Bremore, as proposed, this should be the starting point for the new road. It could connect up to the suggested M52. It would be pointless IMO to move the port and then force it's traffic back into Dublin and onto the M50. )

now ye're talkin'. I wonder do any of the planners read boards.ie? Obviously not.

The Swordsman wrote:

'Wouldn't mind paying a toll' - Are you mad?;)

OK, how about "Now there's a road some people probably wouldn't mind paying a toll or three on."

Lennoxschips

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

I personally am for such a plan in principle. The person who made the point about going from Belfast to Cork via Dublin summed up the problem perfectly. If people do not need to go near Dublin on their journey, they should be given the oppurtunity and even encouraged to avoid it completely.

How much traffic do you think is going from Belfast to Cork? When this road is built it will be another boon for property developers, who seem to wield a considerable amount of power in this country. It will only facilitate the spread of urban sprawl in the Dublin area.

Yet the popularity of these morally corrupt muppets in government continues to go up.

Victor

Flukey wrote:

A direct line to Derry from Dublin, would not just serve people going to Derry from Dublin or vice versa. As I said it would also serve a lot of people in Meath, and in the same way, right up through the route it would take. It could be someone going from Meath to Tyrone, or any two points along the line you care to pick. They are screaming out for a better rail service from Meath to Dublin. A line between Dublin and Derry would serve those people. Do work on the Dublin to Belfast and Belfast to Derry line as you suggest, but they don't serve a large area of the country that want to travel. Look at a rail map of Ireland and between the Dublin-Belfast Line and the Dublin-Sligo line there is nothing. Thats a whole area of the north-midlands, north Leinster and mid-Ulster that have not got a service. There are thousands of people travelling by road in those areas that would use a rail line if there was one. Give Meath its rail link to Dublin and then keep going and serve the people beyond that.

No one lives there!

Zebra3 wrote:

DubTony wrote:

How many people, from places like Dunshaughlin, Drogheda, Ardee, Navan, Carlow, Kildare, etc. who don't need to go anywhere near Dublin, actually use the M50 to complete these non Dublin journeys?

And why don't they use it? Because of the jams caused by the toll.

I think you got that completely the worng way around.

DubTony wrote:

The obvious solution is the M52, effectively replacing the N52. Start at the M1 between Dundalk and Drogheda and head east toward Ardee, turning south west to a junction with the M3 between Kells and Navan. Carry on toward the M4 and N6 junction east of Mullingar and south toward Portlaoise and connect with the M7 and offer access to the the N8. Then head south east to a point between Carlow and Kilkenny joining the M9 and on to the N11 somewhere near Gorey.

It should start south of Drogheda to facilitate traffic going to / from Dogheda. There is no absolute need for it to serve the N9 or N11.

Chris_533976

Definately not the N11, but a linkup with the N/M9 would be a good idea.

Zoney

Chris_533976 wrote:

Definately not the N11, but a linkup with the N/M9 would be a good idea.

Yes - the thing to do would be not just upgrade the N52, but upgrade the N80 between the N52 at Tullamore and N9 at Carlow.

I really don't think even motorway would be needed, just good quality road, maybe 2+1 for high volume sections where local traffic (e.g. Tullamore to Portlaoise, Portlaoise to Carlow) would be using it too - as much as say Galway-Waterford traffic.

dowlingm

On Google Earth, a straight line from Navan to Derry passes through Monaghan. The new Mullingar?

Lennoxschips

I'd consider building a high-quality 2+1 road between Monasterevin, Trim, Navan and Drogheda for people from the south and west who want to head towards Belfast.

This route is sufficiently out of the way and in a direction so that it wouldn't get used as a Dublin commuter route. I don't think it needs to be a motorway (the traffic volume just wouldn't justify it), a very good single carriageway road will do and shave an hour stuck in Dublin traffic off a Cork-Belfast trip.

Ideally these are the kinds of strategic roads that should be built more instead of wasting money on things like the M3 and the M2.

murphaph

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

If people do not need to go near Dublin on their journey, they should be given the oppurtunity and even encouraged to avoid it completely.

That's what the M50 was supposed to do!

The Swordsman

murphaph wrote:

Originally Posted by jesus_thats_gre
If people do not need to go near Dublin on their journey, they should be given the oppurtunity and even encouraged to avoid it completely

That's what the M50 was supposed to do!

Not exactly. It was supposed to a sort of bypass for the City Centre. Before the M50 was built, most journeys from the Northside to the Southside would involve a trip through the City Centre.

It was never meant to be a 'Dublin' bypass. If it was it would be built outside Dublin.

murphaph

The Swordsman wrote:

It was never meant to be a 'Dublin' bypass.

Yes it was.

The Swordsman wrote:

If it was it would be built outside Dublin.

It was outside Dublin (city) when it was planned.

The Swordsman

murphaph wrote:

Yes it was.


It was outside Dublin (city) when it was planned.

Ok. Fair enough. But when people are talking about 'Dublin', they are not talking about inside the M50, they are talking about the sprawl that extends way past the M50.

The M50 may have been planned as a bypass for 'Dublin' as it existed at the time, but not as it exists now.

Bards

and what makes you so sure that this new orbital road will not become part of the great sprawl that is Dublin in 20/30 years time

The Swordsman

Bards wrote:

and what makes you so sure that this new orbital road will not become part of the great sprawl that is Dublin in 20/30 years time

I never said I was. I'm no expert (far from it) but I would need to be convinced that the sprawl would not have happened if the M50 was not built. Obviously if the building of the M50 did somehow lead to urban sprawl, then the mistakes that were made should not be repeated with a new road.

It is my (not so expert) opinion that both Dublin and the rest of this island need this orbital road. But I could be wrong - maybe upgrading the M50 and removing the toll booths will do the trick.

spacetweek

Bards wrote:

and what makes you so sure that this new orbital road will not become part of the great sprawl that is Dublin in 20/30 years time

Because it's miles away from the city. You'd need to sprawl for 50 years to even reach it. The M50, being right up next to or in some parts actually *in* the city, was always going to become a distributor road.

Bards

spacetweek wrote:

Because it's miles away from the city. You're need to sprawl for 50 years to even reach it. The M50, being right up next to or in some parts actually *in* the city, was always going to become a distributor road.

doesn't matter if it miles away... if they allow development along it then it will be clogged in 20 years or less.. they need to sterilse the land around it say 5 miles each direction and not allow any development. Only then can we say for sure that it wil be a true orbital route...

but hey this is Ireland , the land of the brown envelope and call me cynical but I reckon the big developers with large wads of cash will rule the day and screw the Spatial Strategy