Catholic traditions...

kelly1

Hello all,

as I've said in another thread, I reverted to the catholic faith after so many years away in a wasteland. So forgive me if I sound like a reformed alcholic/smoker

It seems to me that that over the past 20 to 30 years, so many catholic traditions have been lost and that many of the younger generation don't
know of their existence. I've put together a list below of traditions that seem to be fading into the past and would like to ask people if they are a part of your life? Have we thrown the baby out with the bathwater?

- Eucharistic adoration, benediction
- Praying the Holy Rosary, The Angelus, Novenas, Litanies
- Reading of bible
- Praying the Divine Office (aka Liturgy of the hours)
- Enthronement of the Sacred Heart in the home.
- Devotions to Divine Mercy and the Sacred Heart.
- Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
- Stations of the Cross.
- First 9 Fridays, first 5 Saturdays devotions.
- Wearing of the brown scapular and/or holy medals.
- Fasting on Fridays
- Sprinkling of/blessing self with holy water
- Crucifix(es) on walls

I'd like to hear people thoughts please.

God bless,
Noel.

gosimeon

Not being Catholic I don't do a lot of the things listed.

My Catholic friends don't either. I think saying repetitive Hail Marys bugs younger people, and will probably never catch on with today's generation. That's what I think anyway.

robindch

You left out the Blessing of the Throat (requiring two candles, both lighted) and the Ecumenical Service, the All-Night Vigil and the Retreat, all of which were annual fixtures during my days in a monastic boarding school in the 1980's. Same with Fish on Fridays, obviously a weekly occurrence, that one. I'm sure there were plenty more religious activities, but the memory of them has evaporated.

> Have we thrown the baby out with the bathwater?

Catholicism has changed enormously in the last 30 years, but then again, it had to, or else very few people would take it seriously today. It's evolving, like any distributed organism has to, to stay alive.

kelly1

robindch wrote:

You left out the Blessing of the Throat (requiring two candles, both lighted) and the Ecumenical Service, the All-Night Vigil and the Retreat, all of which were annual fixtures during my days in a monastic boarding school in the 1980's. Same with Fish on Fridays, obviously a weekly occurrence, that one. I'm sure there were plenty more religious activities, but the memory of them has evaporated.

Yes, thanks for reminding me.

robindch wrote:

Catholicism has changed enormously in the last 30 years, but then again, it had to, or else very few people would take it seriously today. It's evolving, like any distributed organism has to, to stay alive.

I partially agree with this point. There was a time in Ireland when sin, evil and damnation were over-emphasised and this turned a lot of people off religion often for good. But nowdays you hardly ever hear anything about sin, purgatory or hell. It's all glossed over as if everyone is going straight to heaven and bypassing purgatory on the way. Priests don't seem to warn us any more of the danger of ignoring the moral teachings of the Church. The truth never changes just as God never changes. The Church shouldn't shy away from preaching the truth but that's what I see happening today.

BTW, in what way would the Church not have been taken seriously if it hadn't changed?

Regards,
Noel.

Barnabas

Welcome home Kelly 1.

While it is true that alot of these ways of expressing one's faith have fallen somewhat by the way side in the past 30 years or so, not everyone has abandoned them. Since not everyone who logs onto this site and reads this thread is Catholic they will probably not understand everything that you have listed.
I know quite a number of Catholics who practice all or at least some of the things you listed. I'm one of them.

As regards sin and the lack of leadership given by 'some' priests (lets not tar them all with the one brush) I think the problem is one of fear and the need for affirmation. They fear that they will be perceived as being instruments or mouthpieces for God's wrath if they speak against sin and call to conversion. They need to remember though that the first words that come from the lips of Christ in Mark's Gospel are a call to conversion. But, like the prophet Jonah's mission to Nineveh, the priests' calling of their flock out of sin (which presupposes that they are willing to call themsleves out of it first) is not a mission to bringing or proclaiming god's vengeance or wrath but an opening for God's mercy. Jonah's call to conversion became an opportunity for the people of Nineveh to repent and experience God's mercy.

May the Lord Jesus pour his grace abundantly upon you Noel.

Yours in the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary

Barnabas:D

Excelsior

Lads, do you not think it is a great thing that the Catholic church has made careful restoration of Scriptural authority over the last generations so that a lot of the non-Scriptural traditions have been de-emphasised (not eradicated) to free us up to worship God more fully, free from the debris of man-made tradition?

Barnabas

With all due respect excelsior I'm not sure what you mean by 'de-emphasised'. While there has been a wonderful flowering of appreciation among the Catholic faithful of the Sacred Scriptures and this has been directly encourgaed by the hierarchy of the Catholic Church, especially after Vatican II, there hasn't been to my mind any de-emphasising of devotional practices. Perhaps what you are intending to say is that there has been an effort to present and understand these various devotions in the light of Sacred Scripture, which is very true. And indeed there may have been excesses among some with regard to these devotions but that would not have been the church's official position but an exaggerated and poorly informed piety.

With regard to 'man-made', as you call them, traditions. I'm not sure either which one's you intend.

Eucharistic Adoration - If Jesus is really there then he should be adored.

The Rosary - a form of prayer that is totally imbued with the Sacred Scripture and leads one to the contemplation of Christ's life death and resurrection.

Reading the Bible - need say no more on that.
Same for the Divine Office which is Scriptural through and through.

With regards all that pertains to devotions to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, Divine Mercy - then it is an expression of a special trust in and recognition of God's merciful love for us made manifest in the Incarnate Word - the heart being the symbol of the whole person; i.e. when you say to someone that you love them with all your heart you obviously don't mean its four chambers.

Images, medals etc - that might take a little more explanation that I wouldn't have time for and probably not the intelligence either. Cf. 2nd Council of Nicaea as first port of call. They are essentially reminders of certain aspects of the faith - much in the same way that you might carry a picture of someone dear to you in your wallet or purse. However, they do have an aspect that goes beyond that.

The Angelus is a pause to recall the great gift that is the Incarnation. A time to reflect and give thanks. It is a Marian prayer but like all Marian prayer it is deeply Christological - to have Mary without Christ would be an absurdity.

Novenas - Cf. Christ's admonition to pray persistently.

Fasting - Christ recommends it and St. Paul (a man not known for his love of 'man-made' traditions) himself fasted if memory serves me correctly.

Holy Water - recalls the great blessing of baptism into Christ and signing oneself with the sign of the Cross at the same time reminds us that we are as Christians to be found always on/under the Cross. (cf. Galatians 2:19-20).

(We can't despise material things - the Lord used them - cf. making the paste to heal the blind man, and uses them still - without water there is no baptism. Without Bread and Wine we can have no Eucharist)

I realise that Non-Catholic Christians might have doubts and concerns about these things but that doesn't mean that we Catholics should renounce them. If in Catholicism there was anything that might obscure the vision of or inhibit access to Christ then it wouldn't be there for long. Now some will say - the saints and the Blessed virgin - you pray to them and that takes away from the worship due to God. Firstly I'd say that someone who says this hasn't actually examined very well what the Church means in the veneration (not worship- never worship) of Our Lady and the other saints. I suggest reading 'Lumen Gentium' Chapter 8 from Vatican II. If I ask you to pray for me are you going to sit back and think I adore you - how much less will one of the saints do so. Anbd how much more intensely they will pray for me if I ask them to. They are our models in the One Model Jesus Christ and they add their voices to ours when we seek the Lord's help. Remember the story of the paralytic in the Gospel of Luke - it was the faith of his friends that obtained his healing - he never opened his mouth.

I expect that this post might solicit quite a critical response. I hope not and I'm not infallible in all this.

Yours in Christ

Barnabas

BrianCalgary

Barnabas wrote:

I realise that Non-Catholic Christians might have doubts and concerns about these things but that doesn't mean that we Catholics should renounce them. If in Catholicism there was anything that might obscure the vision of or inhibit access to Christ then it wouldn't be there for long. Now some will say - the saints and the Blessed virgin - you pray to them and that takes away from the worship due to God. Firstly I'd say that someone who says this hasn't actually examined very well what the Church means in the veneration (not worship- never worship) of Our Lady and the other saints. I suggest reading 'Lumen Gentium' Chapter 8 from Vatican II. If I ask you to pray for me are you going to sit back and think I adore you - how much less will one of the saints do so. Anbd how much more intensely they will pray for me if I ask them to. They are our models in the One Model Jesus Christ and they add their voices to ours when we seek the Lord's help. Remember the story of the paralytic in the Gospel of Luke - it was the faith of his friends that obtained his healing - he never opened his mouth.

I expect that this post might solicit quite a critical response. I hope not and I'm not infallible in all this.

Yours in Christ

Barnabas

I would say Barnabas that you have articulated very well the meaning of all the 'ceremony' within the Roman Catholic church. The reasons for the various ceremonies are wonderful and geared to keeping Christ at the front and centre of our lives.

The problem lies with the fact that people don't use them as such, they just do them because they have been told to. I grew up Anglican and often wondered how many people actually thought about and took to heart the words of the Apostles creed.

All churches have their warts as they make the attempt to bring Christ to the forefront, but it is the hearts of the popel that really matter.

kelly1

All, if I had known this thread would be hijacked the way it has, it wouldn't have started it. It's gone totally off topic. Is this typical of this forum?

It's not possible to have a proper discussion unless people stay on topic! If you wish to discuss another issue, why not open another thread?

Noel.

Tim Robbins

kelly1 wrote:

All, if I had known this thread would be hijacked the way it has, it wouldn't have started it. It's gone totally off topic. Is this typical of this forum?

It's not possible to have a proper discussion unless people stay on topic! If you wish to discuss another issue, why not open another thread?

Noel.

Sorry, for any part I played in that Noel. I think the tangent started when people started talking about 'the authority of scripture'. May I say, I'm sure people would be interested in hearing your opinions on this and any Christian issue - especially considering we don't get many Catholics on this forum.

Suff

kelly1 wrote:

All, if I had known this thread would be hijacked the way it has, it wouldn't have started it. It's gone totally off topic. Is this typical of this forum?

It's not possible to have a proper discussion unless people stay on topic! If you wish to discuss another issue, why not open another thread?

Noel.

I did apologies at the top of my response, I had to correct information posted by Brian. and Yes it is typical in every thread !

Back to topic...

One Question I have..How these Traditions came to exist? I know that fasting was part of the early Christians in the MiddleEast but I dont know about the likes of "Hail Mary, Full of Grace" who started them?

Barnabas

Kelly, I was going to make the same comment. It really did go very far off from the original topic of discussion.

Suff, the Hail Mary is a prayer. It uses the words that the Angel Gabriel spoke to the Virgin Mary when he announced that she was to become the Mother of the Son of God. (I understand that you as a Muslim wouldn't agree with the assertion that Jesus Christ is divine - though I think Islam does teach that he was born of a Virgin - but that's off the point of this thread once again, sorry!) It also takes parts from the encounter Mary has with Elizabeth (her relation/cousin) who is the mother of John the Baptist.

Then the prayer mentions 'Jesus', it's almost as though the preceding bit were building up to this. From this then flows a proclamation of Mary as the Mother of God (this is to be understood as the Mother of the Incarnate Word - Second person of the Trinity.) We call her Mother of God because she is mother of God Incarnate in Christ Jesus. Just as your own mother is not the mother of your body or the mother of your soul, or the mother of your human nature,but the mother of you as a person - the mother of suff, so too Mary is mother of Christ who is at the same time a Divine Person, God and therefore she is the Mother of God. Some people mistakenly think that we Christians think that Mary is the mother of the Godhead - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but she is only the Mother of the Son and then only in so much as he has become a human being. That's what our faith tells us as best as I can put it in a post like this.

Then the prayer asks the Blessed Virgin to pray for us sinners. This is probably the most problematic for many non-catholic or non-Orthodox Christians. We seek her intercession on our behalf and ask her pray for us to God.
Then you get into issues of mediation and Christ being the only mediator between God and man so how is it possible for someone else to take his place. The short Catholic answer is: they don't, nor does Mary. All Mary does is directed towards the glory of her Son Jesus - as can be seen in the Gospel of St. Luke which chronicles Mary's response to the praise heaped on her by Elizabeth who is speaking under the influence of the Holy Spirit. Mary immedaitely reflects this praise unto God who has done great things for her. But she can pray for us as i can pray for anyone. But with Mary there is the difference that she has a relationship to Christ that no other human being has, i.e. being his mother and so her prayer has a special character and quality.
But that's perhaps for another thread!

The text of the Prayer is as follows:

Hail Mary,full of Grace
The Lord is with thee
Blessed art thou among women
and blessed is the fruit ofthy womb
Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God
Pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen

If you read the first few chapters of the Gospel of Luke you will find the various elements of the first half of the prayer - though linguistically it might not absolutely correspond with what is said in the prayer.

I think you could look on the Hail Mary prayer as two prayers in reality.
The first half recounts God's praise of Mary, in a sense his song of love for the woman who is specially created and chosen by him to be the Mother of Christ.
In the second half it is the Church which takes up the refrain and heaps praise on her and recognises the great dignity and influence God has given her in making her the Mother of his Son. If God thinks so highly of this woman as the first part of the prayer affirms then the Church sees it as her duty to imitate him by holding her in high esteem and honouring her too.

Hope this helps.
Barnabas

Asiaprod

kelly1 wrote:

All, if I had known this thread would be hijacked the way it has, it wouldn't have started it. It's gone totally off topic. Is this typical of this forum?

It's not possible to have a proper discussion unless people stay on topic! If you wish to discuss another issue, why not open another thread?

Noel.

My apologies kelly1, threads here on this forum do tend to deviate all over the place, but generally do get back on track, eventually. I can do two things:
1. If you like I can split this thread into two
2. I can request that this thread gets back on track to deal with the original post.

Since number 1 is time consuming and difficult to separate, I will go with number 2 and ask all to get back on topic (Traditions). If anyone wishes to pursue the branch topics, which I also find interesting, please start a separate thread.

Puck

The off-topic posts have been moved to a new thread called "Canon and the Authenticity of Scripture". Please try to keep threads on topic. If this thread provokes questions or arguments relating to a different subject please start a new thread or search for existing threads that deal with that subject.

Schuhart

kelly1 wrote:

I've put together a list below of traditions that seem to be fading into the past and would like to ask people if they are a part of your life? Have we thrown the baby out with the bathwater?

Apologies on my part in diverting the thread away from its theme. I can’t recall if we’ve participated in a thread together before, so just by way of introduction I’m an atheist of Catholic background. I don’t have any particular gripe with the Church. I just don’t think there’s a God.

At the moment, I’m actually browsing through the Christmas issue of The Tablet, which I’d regard as something that gets you into a Catholic frame of mind. A few of the articles put me in mind of the question of traditions and change.

One, a reflection on Advent, posed an interesting idea about the context we see ourselves in. The writer quotes a theologian he had interviewed saying ‘we might indeed be living in the last days, but equally we could be the early Church’. Take that second thought – imagine what we see now is still the early Church. How could a young Church have traditions?

Another article, talking about religious divisions, concludes by telling of a mosque in India where “inscriptions from the Quran are interspersed with the six petals of the sacred Hindu lotus flower from which wisdom was born.” All faiths have their traditions and symbols. Have they any value in themselves, or is the value what they are trying to communicate?

Finally, there’s an epiphany from a Catholic thinker I admire greatly, Teilhard de Chardin.

Oh Lord, since I have neither bread nor wine nor altar here on the Asian steppes, I lift myself far above symbols, to the pure majesty of the Real; and I, your priest, offer to you on the altar of the entire earth, the travail and suffering of the world. Yonder breaks the sun, to the light the uttermost east, and then to send its sheets of fire over the living surface of the earth, which wakens, shudders and resumes its relentless struggle. My paten and my chalice are the depths of a soul laid widely open to all the forces which in a moment will rise up from every corner of the earth and converge upon the Spirit.

That communicates to me the idea that the world is a living place, we are part of it and that imagination is not so exhausted that it depends on ritual. Where does that leave tradition? I suppose I’d say what’s worth more than tradition is the communication of the substance. How much of that substance was present when rituals were practiced more diligently?

kelly1

Hello again folks. Thanks to the mods and appologies gratefully accepted from all.

Schuhart wrote:

The writer quotes a theologian he had interviewed saying ‘we might indeed be living in the last days, but equally we could be the early Church’. Take that second thought – imagine what we see now is still the early Church. How could a young Church have traditions?

It's a hypothetical question with no basis in reality. The Church is nearly 2000 years old.

Schuhart wrote:

Another article, talking about religious divisions, concludes by telling of a mosque in India where “inscriptions from the Quran are interspersed with the six petals of the sacred Hindu lotus flower from which wisdom was born.” All faiths have their traditions and symbols. Have they any value in themselves, or is the value what they are trying to communicate?

I think good traditions are valuable in at least two ways. They help to create a sense of community as opposed to going off and doing your own thing. Traditions create a sense of continuity and belonging. Good traditions are also pleasing to God in that they give Him greater glory. While traditions are not strictly necessary for our justification and salvation, Goes does fill our souls with His grace when we practice traditions such as the ones mentioned below. The more grace we have, the greater our ability to avoid sin and to do God's will.

Schuhart wrote:

Finally, there’s an epiphany from a Catholic thinker I admire greatly, Teilhard de Chardin.
.
.
.
That communicates to me the idea that the world is a living place, we are part of it and that imagination is not so exhausted that it depends on ritual. Where does that leave tradition? I suppose I’d say what’s worth more than tradition is the communication of the substance. How much of that substance was present when rituals were practiced more diligently?

First off, T. de C. was regarded as a heretic by the Church for this modernist/new-age philosophies so I wouldn't take him too seriously! There is of course substance in tradition. By tradition, we come to know, love and serve God. Of course there's nothing wrong with communicating with God in your own way but it's wrong to dismiss tradition as being irrelevant.

God bless,
Noel.

Schuhart

kelly1 wrote:

Of course there's nothing wrong with communicating with God in your own way but it's wrong to dismiss tradition as being irrelevant.

I would not necessarily dismiss it as irrelevant. The point (which I think we agree on from different directions) is that the tradition has to have meaning for the person practicing it.

panda100

kelly1 wrote:

- Eucharistic adoration, benediction.

If I want time for quiet refelction then I will do it on my bed at home with some candles on. I find it difficult to believe that Jesus is really there at adoration.

kelly1 wrote:

Praying the Holy Rosary, The Angelus, Novenas, Litanies.

If the angelus happens to come on the tv then I do say a hail mary and our father but thats it. I only hear rosarys at funerals and they scare the bayjaysus out of me. All that monotounus moaning is just somthing I cant bring myslef to do.

kelly1 wrote:

- Reading of bible.

Not since I studed Luke for My GSCE's. It doesnt really seem relevant to my life and isnt exactly light reading or intresting

kelly1 wrote:

- Praying the Divine Office (aka Liturgy of the hours).

Never heared of that:o

kelly1 wrote:

- Enthronement of the Sacred Heart in the home..

My parents are old fashioned so we have one at home but Id never put one up in my college house. I do have a little statue of Elizabeth and Mary cos I like that.

kelly1 wrote:

- Devotions to Divine Mercy and the Sacred Heart..

Never understood what devotions were:o

kelly1 wrote:

- Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary..

what?

kelly1 wrote:

- Stations of the Cross..

At easter but apart from that never.

-

kelly1 wrote:

Wearing of the brown scapular and/or holy medals..

Its only a piece of metal so whats the point.

-

kelly1 wrote:

Fasting on Fridays.

when we were growing up we only ever eat fish on Friday but I only do that on Good friday now. I suppose we're meant to fast for some sort of repentance but I hate that idealogy in the catholic church that we are all sinners.

Mrs. MacGyver

kelly1 wrote:

All, if I had known this thread would be hijacked the way it has, it wouldn't have started it. It's gone totally off topic. Is this typical of this forum?

It's not possible to have a proper discussion unless people stay on topic! If you wish to discuss another issue, why not open another thread?

Noel.

Noel. I'm not Catholic but growing up helping out on the farm next door, the rosary was said, 1st Friday devotions are still popular and the tradition og the brat ban left on the ditch on st brigids eve is still common as are the 'rounds' in honour of St Abbey in Ballyvourney. I'd be of the view that since these traditions are going out gradually then maby this is a reflection of the absence of togetherness and community spirit in todays Ireland (a factor that did not arise in the 60's and 70's.

Kind regards,
Sile

JimiTime

kelly1 wrote:

Hello all,

as I've said in another thread, I reverted to the catholic faith after so many years away in a wasteland. So forgive me if I sound like a reformed alcholic/smoker

It seems to me that that over the past 20 to 30 years, so many catholic traditions have been lost and that many of the younger generation don't
know of their existence. I've put together a list below of traditions that seem to be fading into the past and would like to ask people if they are a part of your life? Have we thrown the baby out with the bathwater?

- Eucharistic adoration, benediction
- Praying the Holy Rosary, The Angelus, Novenas, Litanies
- Reading of bible
- Praying the Divine Office (aka Liturgy of the hours)
- Enthronement of the Sacred Heart in the home.
- Devotions to Divine Mercy and the Sacred Heart.
- Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
- Stations of the Cross.
- First 9 Fridays, first 5 Saturdays devotions.
- Wearing of the brown scapular and/or holy medals.
- Fasting on Fridays
- Sprinkling of/blessing self with holy water
- Crucifix(es) on walls

I'd like to hear people thoughts please.

God bless,
Noel.

As a Christian but not a Catholic, I am happy to see the back of all those traditions bar the bible reading. My aunts and uncles are still very much traditional catholics, and have medals, crucifixes, say rosaries etc. As far as the baby out with bathwater. None of these traditions had a baby in the bath so good riddance from a christian perspective. However, alot of people, never bothered to find the real Christ when they left catholocism, and in that respect threw the baby out with the bathwater. I.E. They left the catholic church behind, but then neglected Christ completely.

kelly1

panda100 wrote:

If I want time for quiet refelction then I will do it on my bed at home with some candles on. I find it difficult to believe that Jesus is really there at adoration.

For Catholics, this is an absolutely essential doctrine. And it's well supported in scripture. After all God can do anything!

panda100 wrote:

>> Praying the Holy Rosary, The Angelus, Novenas, Litanies.
If the angelus happens to come on the tv then I do say a hail mary and our father but thats it. I only hear rosarys at funerals and they scare the bayjaysus out of me. All that monotounus moaning is just somthing I cant bring myslef to do.

I think most people misunderstand the rosary. The meditative aspect of it is more important than the Hail Mary's.

panda100 wrote:

>> Reading the bible
Not since I studed Luke for My GSCE's. It doesnt really seem relevant to my life and isnt exactly light reading or intresting

Again it shouldn't be read lightly but should be meditated upon so the Holy Spirit can give us an intuitive understanding of the Word of God. You might try looking up "Lectio Divinia"

panda100 wrote:

>> Praying the Divine Office (aka Liturgy of the hours).
Never heared of that

You'll find this in a breviary. It's the official
prayers of the Church which are prayer every 3 hours. All priests and religious are required to read the Divine Office. It consists mostly of psalms.

panda100 wrote:

>> Devotions to Divine Mercy and the Sacred Heart..
Never understood what devotions were

See http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12275b.htm
I think devotions could be described as pious practices that bring us closer to God and hopefully result in God's grace being bestowed upon us.

panda100 wrote:

>> Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary...
what?

See http://www.pacifier.com/~rosarweb/consecrt.htm

panda100 wrote:

>> Stations of the Cross..
At easter but apart from that never.

This is a good devotion for Friday's

panda100 wrote:

Wearing of the brown scapular and/or holy medals..
Its only a piece of metal so whats the point.

Here's some good info on sacramentals
http://www.fisheaters.com/sacramentalsintro.html

panda100 wrote:

>> Fasting on Fridays.
when we were growing up we only ever eat fish on Friday but I only do that on Good friday now. I suppose we're meant to fast for some sort of repentance but I hate that idealogy in the catholic church that we are all sinners.

We ARE all sinners. How many of us follow the commandments perfectly? How many of us love God with all our
heart, soul, strength, mind and our neighbour as our self?
People don't realize what it means to truly do God's will. It means being totally self-less so that we care only for God and neighbour. It's hard to do, I know! Jesus command us to "Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect".
It's a big struggle but by struggling we gain merit and give glory to God.

God bless,
Noel.

JimiTime

kelly1 wrote:

We ARE all sinners. How many of us follow the commandments perfectly? How many of us love God with all our
heart, soul, strength, mind and our neighbour as our self?
People don't realize what it means to truly do God's will. It means being totally self-less so that we care only for God and neighbour. It's hard to do, I know! Jesus command us to "Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect".
It's a big struggle but by struggling we gain merit and give glory to God.

God bless,
Noel.

GREAT point. If I may ellaborate. Love is the key! All that we do, should not be to attain anything. It should be out of Love. I.E. Don't help your neighbour because its pleasing to God, help your neighbour because you Love your neighbour. Don't worship God because you want his rewards, or don't want his judgement. Worship him because you genuinely Love him.

Another point Noel. Why do you believe in all of those Catholic traditions?

Bradidup

I am glad to see some mention of Gods word, Ie the BIBLE. I am an EX Catholic, who went to the Holy Ghost fathers At St Michaels Collage Ailesbury Road, I was an Alter Boy, CBC Christian Brothers School Monkstown, I was a regular to mass in my youth. I made the descision to leave the church after reading about all the hypocrisy, traditions, false teachings etc that were contary to what was spoken to us in the gospels of Gods holy word. The Bible. A few examples........ in Matthew 6vs 7. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. (The Rosary is an example) Matthew 23vs 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Why do Catholics call Priests "Father" and Papa (pope) father???.
The Stations of the cross, praying to Images which is forbidden,
Praying to mary, Saints etc???.....Jesus said.....I am the way the truth and the light, no man comes to the Father (GOD) but through me. (John 14vs6). he also said,
there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (KJV) 1 timothy 2vs 5, NEVER in the bible dose it mention Mary worship!!. Please read the following tract, It will open your eyes!!!!. dont be offended, http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp
Frank.

Michael G

Kelly1, first of all mayI too say welcome back. I had my own return twenty years ago after 15 years away.

I wasn't really aware of it in my first ten years back in the Church, because I was concentrating on the intellectual side, but I have become more and more conscious in the last few years of the drabness and dumbing down of the liturgy. We need beautiful churches, liturgy, ceremony and music to give us some faint glimpse of God and to raise our hearts up to him.

Are you in Dublin? If so, then please go to the Tridentine Mass on Sundays at St Audoen's in High Street. There are details on the site of the Latin Mass Society of Ireland. (If you are not in Dublin, the site has details of other Tridentine Masses.) At At Audoen's, you will hear beautiful sacred music and see the Mass celebrated with dignity and reverence. This website also has a free audio download of the Mass and you can buy a CD. This link will give you the full rite of the Traditional Mass. There are also Traditional Masses in Dun Laoghaire if you are not worried about attending Masses celebrated by the Society of St Pius X, who may or may not be excommunicated depending on whom you talk to; see this link on the Latin Mass Society site about the official Vatican line on going to those Masses.

I hope all goes well for you. Please contact me if you wish.

kelly1

Bradidup wrote:

I am glad to see some mention of Gods word, Ie the BIBLE. I am an EX Catholic, who went to the Holy Ghost fathers At St Michaels Collage Ailesbury Road, I was an Alter Boy, CBC Christian Brothers School Monkstown, I was a regular to mass in my youth. I made the descision to leave the church after reading about all the hypocrisy, traditions, false teachings etc that were contary to what was spoken to us in the gospels of Gods holy word. The Bible. A few examples........ in Matthew 6vs 7. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. (The Rosary is an example) Matthew 23vs 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Why do Catholics call Priests "Father" and Papa (pope) father???.
The Stations of the cross, praying to Images which is forbidden,
Praying to mary, Saints etc???.....Jesus said.....I am the way the truth and the light, no man comes to the Father (GOD) but through me. (John 14vs6). he also said,
there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (KJV) 1 timothy 2vs 5, NEVER in the bible dose it mention Mary worship!!. Please read the following tract, It will open your eyes!!!!. dont be offended, http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp
Frank.

Bradidup, with respect this is nonsense! Jack Chick is catholic-hating lie monger. The catholic Church is the same Church founded by Jesus Christ with Peter as the first pope. I hope you find our sooner rather that later, that the Church teaches only the Truth.

God bless,
Noel.

kelly1

Michael G wrote:

Kelly1, first of all mayI too say welcome back. I had my own return twenty years ago after 15 years away.

I wasn't really aware of it in my first ten years back in the Church, because I was concentrating on the intellectual side, but I have become more and more conscious in the last few years of the drabness and dumbing down of the liturgy. We need beautiful churches, liturgy, ceremony and music to give us some faint glimpse of God and to raise our hearts up to him.

Are you in Dublin? If so, then please go to the Tridentine Mass on Sundays at St Audoen's in High Street. There are details on the site of the Latin Mass Society of Ireland. (If you are not in Dublin, the site has details of other Tridentine Masses.) At At Audoen's, you will hear beautiful sacred music and see the Mass celebrated with dignity and reverence. This website also has a free audio download of the Mass and you can buy a CD. This link will give you the full rite of the Traditional Mass. There are also Traditional Masses in Dun Laoghaire if you are not worried about attending Masses celebrated by the Society of St Pius X, who may or may not be excommunicated depending on whom you talk to; see this link on the Latin Mass Society site about the official Vatican line on going to those Masses.

I hope all goes well for you. Please contact me if you wish.

Hello Michael G, I fully agree with what you're saying! I can stand modern bland churches! They're totally insipid and do nothing to lift the soul up to Heaven!

I have been to St. Audoen's once and I'd like to go back. I found the TLM a strange experience but good experience. I had an old missal with me and I got a bit lost. I should really have just concentrated on the Mass instead of the missal!

God bless you with lots of grace,
Noel.

JimiTime

kelly1 wrote:

Bradidup, with respect this is nonsense! Jack Chick is catholic-hating lie monger. The catholic Church is the same Church founded by Jesus Christ with Peter as the first pope. I hope you find our sooner rather that later, that the Church teaches only the Truth.

God bless,
Noel.

On that point, would you be willing to answer some spiritual accusations I would have against the Catholic Church? I don't just want to come out against the RCC, which is why I'm asking if you would be willing to answer my accusations against them? You haven't answered my previous question, about why you believe in all the Catholic traditions, so i don't know if you are just ignoring me or not. If you could just acknowledge that you read the question and that you are refraining from answering, that would suffice, I wont bother you again if that is the case. If its just been overlooked, even better, and i look forward to the discussion.

kelly1

JimiTime wrote:

GREAT point. If I may ellaborate. Love is the key! All that we do, should not be to attain anything. It should be out of Love. I.E. Don't help your neighbour because its pleasing to God, help your neighbour because you Love your neighbour. Don't worship God because you want his rewards, or don't want his judgement. Worship him because you genuinely Love him.

Another point Noel. Why do you believe in all of those Catholic traditions?

Hello, I'd forgotten about this question!
I believe in these traditions because they bring me closer to God and because they don't contradict the teachings of the Church or Holy Scripture. Edifying is probably the best word to describe them. I believe God in His goodness and mercy grants his grace to those who practice these devotions. I don't think these devotions/traditions are necessary for salvation but they keep our minds fixed on God.

God bless you,
Noel.

kelly1

JimiTime wrote:

On that point, would you be willing to answer some spiritual accusations I would have against the Catholic Church? I don't just want to come out against the RCC, which is why I'm asking if you would be willing to answer my accusations against them? You haven't answered my previous question, about why you believe in all the Catholic traditions, so i don't know if you are just ignoring me or not. If you could just acknowledge that you read the question and that you are refraining from answering, that would suffice, I wont bother you again if that is the case. If its just been overlooked, even better, and i look forward to the discussion.

Hello again JT. Sorry I didn't reply
sooner to your previous question on traditions. And yes, I'll do my best, with the help of God, to answer your accusations. Might be best to start a new thread? And one "accusation" a time please

God bless,
Noel.

Asiaprod

kelly1 wrote:

Might be best to start a new thread? And one "accusation" a time please

God bless,
Noel.

That would be a great way to approch it, good idea:) Too many accusations posted in one go would IMO indeed cause the thread to deteriorate.

Bradidup

kelly1 wrote:

Bradidup, with respect this is nonsense! Jack Chick is catholic-hating lie monger. The catholic Church is the same Church founded by Jesus Christ with Peter as the first pope. I hope you find our sooner rather that later, that the Church teaches only the Truth.

First of all I never heard of Jack Chick until many years after I left the Roman Catholic Religion. When Jack Chick quotes Scripture it is taken directly from the very same Bible that sits on the alter in all Catholic and Protestant Churches.

Many of the scriptures that is quoted in Jack Chicks tracts may never be read out in any of the Churches, Both Catholic, Protestant and other religions simply because they would be offensive to both the Church clergy and congregation as it would expose the TRUTH OF GODS HOLY WORD!!!!!.

The lord clearly states that ALL SCRIPTURE is necessary. (Ie the whole Bible)

2 Timothy 3:16-17 ALL SCRIPTURE is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

In the Gospel of Matthew 4:4 when our lord was tempted by the devil on the mount "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of God".