Funny but embarassing live 1-3NL hand

NickyOD

1-3 live hand. The table is 8 handed, very loose and the standard is very mixed. The villain in this hand is the Big blind and is a good player.

UTG opens to €12. He's been doing this a lot and I didn't think he had much of a hand. Player 2 3rd to act reraises to €35. He has been re-raising this player a lot and my read was that he just wanted to buy position on him. Like me, he prefers to either reraise or fold, than to just call. Folded to me in the CO and I make it €105 to go with Kc-7c which is probably really stupid because my table image is bad and I've reraised Player 2 a lot. The first time I showed A-5o when I reraised him on the button but won a decent pot against another player in the blinds. The other 2 times I had AQ and JJ. The Jacks I folded to his push when he had Kings.

It's folded to the Villain in the big blind who immediately pushes all in for €253 total. He is a very observant player who can mix it up a lot, and will have noted that I have been playing position all night. It's folded back to me.

What is the Villain's range and should I Call or fold?

valor

this is a pretty easy fold

even if we give him a generous range such as 99+ AQo+, we are only 30% to win, and I think a tighter range is fairer. And some hands in his range are much more likely too, ie QQ+ and AK

The Ace Face

NickyOD wrote:

1-3 live hand. The table is 8 handed, very loose and the standard is very mixed. The villain in this hand is the Big blind and is a good player.

UTG opens to €12. He's been doing this a lot and I didn't think he had much of a hand. Player 2 3rd to act reraises to €35. He has been re-raising this player a lot and my read was that he just wanted to buy position on him. Like me, he prefers to either reraise of fold, than to just call. Folded to me in the CO and I make it €105 to go with Kc-7c which is probably really stupid because my table image is bad and I've reraised Player 2 a lot. The first time I showed A-5o when I reraised him on the button but won a decent pot against another player in the blinds. The other 2 times I had AQ and JJ. The Jacks I folded to his push when he had Kings.

It's folded to the Villain in the big blind who immediately pushes all in for €253 total. He is a very observant player who can mix it up a lot, and will have noted that I have been playing position all night. It's folded back to me.

What is the Villain's range and should I Call or fold?

defo fold, i never reraise with k-7.wouldn't call with it either...button or not...only play it from bb/sb if its cheap even then i'm uncomfortable with it.

ray

karlh

this a troll?

NickyOD

karlh wrote:

this a troll?

Honestly no, but it could turn into one.

dacman

Did u call and hit a flush vrs KK

NickyOD

valor wrote:

this is a pretty easy fold

even if we give him a generous range such as 99+ AQo+, we are only 30% to win

If there is €406 in the pot and I only have to call another €148. what % of the time do I need to win to make a profit?

Jimmy Hoffa

With such great tactical moves how the hell did u ever go broke.Reraising bad players with bad starting hands just is not smart.Getting 3 _1 now u may as well call and abuse him by calling him a feaces throwing monkey when his aces hold up.

Scotty #

NickyOD wrote:

If there is €406 in the pot and I only have to call another €148. what % of the time do I need to win to make a profit?

27.027% to break even

NickyOD

Jimmy Hoffa wrote:

With such great tactical moves how the hell did u ever go broke.Reraising bad players with bad starting hands just is not smart.Getting 3 _1 now u may as well call and abuse him by calling him a feaces throwing monkey when his aces hold up.

sigh! Why is it, whenever I make a post that's a little off the wall some idiot who hardly ever says anything feels the need to break his silence by jumping on my head? And I never said anyone in this hand was a bad player!!!

I think you were right Karl. :rolleyes:

Jimmy Hoffa

Nicky not jumping on your head its abad play and u know it.And i said u were getting 3 to 1 u asked what odds for a call theres your answer.

NickyOD

Jimmy Hoffa wrote:

Nicky not jumping on your head its abad play and u know it.And i said u were getting 3 to 1 u asked what odds for a call theres your answer.

Read the OP and tell me where I said reraising with K-7 was a good idea?

breadmonkey

This is something I never understood about pot odds. Even if you are getting the right odds to call, are you not really just kidding yourself since you construed a situation where you have to have to call but your whole stack is going in with crap. That may not make a lot of sense.

mickste

If this isn't an attempt to seek justification on the call you made i'm guessing, i'd be very surprised.

let me guess, you won the pot and feel you made a 'correct' play.

NickyOD

mickste wrote:

If this isn't an attempt to seek justification on the call you made i'm guessing, i#d be very surprised.

let me guess, you won the pot and feel you made a 'correct' play.

Yes, I called and won.
No, I don't need to seek justification from anyone for the call. I can do that myself.

Jimmy Hoffa

Is Nicky o d getting poker lessons from Murat? I have 2cards i have to call?

Jimmy Hoffa

Nicky what was the villains hole cards?

NickyOD

Jimmy Hoffa wrote:

Is Nicky o d getting poker lessons from Murat? I have 2cards i have to call?

Who's Murat?

I'll come back to this thread later. I'm off to see Rocky Balboo, a true underdog story. Even though Rocky is like 65 and wrinkly, I think he made a good call because the computer said he had positive equity. Some people might think that's pretty silly though.

RoadSweeper

he looses.

Hectorjelly

this thread is a disgrace, "this is what I dont understand about pot odds"

as played easy call - as a bonus its good for your image

Lazare

RoadSweeper wrote:

he looses.

I think it's high time this was made a lifetime bannable offence.

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

this thread is a disgrace, "this is what I dont understand about pot odds"

as played easy call - as a bonus its good for your image

Yeah, and thank god someone sane finally gave the right answer. Of course I have to call.

The BB made a brilliant read based move, sticking in a 4th raise all-in with JQ. I think he was just unlucky that he didn't have enough for me to fold, which he didn't think about because he was so sure I had crap and just moved in expecting me to fold.

valor

lol results orientated thinking

in my original reply I said it was an easy fold - I retract that, it is fairly close but its still marginally -ev imo, only reason to call is if metagame/image is of import

Marq

NickyOD wrote:

Yeah, and thank god someone sane finally gave the right answer. Of course I have to call.

The BB made a brilliant read based move, sticking in a 4th raise all-in with JQ. I think he was just unlucky that he didn't have enough for me to fold, which he didn't think about because he was so sure I had crap and just moved in expecting me to fold.

You knew the right answer Nicky, so did everyone who's not an idiot and didn't bother to post because this hand isn't too interesting at all.
I think this guy's fourth raise is a pile of piss because if he knows enough to believe that you could do this with a lot of random hands, he should know that the odds dictate that you have to call with practically any hand, and his Q high is pretty shít against that range.

NickyOD

valor wrote:

lol results orientated thinking

in my original reply I said it was an easy fold - I retract that, it is fairly close but its still marginally -ev imo, only reason to call is if metagame/image is of import

Well I wasn't concerned about my table image. It was already terrible.

I called because I didn't believe he had AA or KK, At best I was expecting QQ or AK and even if he shows me QQ face up I have to call. Against AKs I am actually still getting break even odds to call. Incidentally I still would have won against AK as I flopped a 7 so I'm really glad I didn't inflict that beat on him!!

MrPillowTalk

Marq wrote:

You knew the right answer Nicky, so did everyone who's not an idiot and didn't bother to post because this hand isn't too interesting at all.
I think this guy's fourth raise is a pile of piss because if he knows enough to believe that you could do this with a lot of random hands, he should know that the odds dictate that you have to call with practically any hand, and his Q high is pretty shít against that range.

Yeah I think villain played it pretty poor imo, if your both deeper then its marginal but with stacks how they were it sounds like youse were playing bingo.

NickyOD

Marq wrote:

You knew the right answer Nicky, so did everyone who's not an idiot and didn't bother to post because this hand isn't too interesting at all.
I think this guy's fourth raise is a pile of piss because if he knows enough to believe that you could do this with a lot of random hands, he should know that the odds dictate that you have to call with practically any hand, and his Q high is pretty shít against that range.

I didn't call everyone an idiot!!!! :mad: and it wouldn't be the first time anyone on the forum didn't post a HH question they didn't already know the answer to. I thought the answers would be interesting, and I'm amazed so many people said fold. It certainly goes to show how weak a lot of winning players are on pot odds.

I don't really agree that his move is bad. I think it's just unlucky really. When you are convinced that someone has trash its very difficult not to make the snap decision to immediately push in without considering the pot odds. Take Andy Black's hand against Phil Ivey where he pushed in a 4th raise wall in ith A2 giving Phil Ivey better odds than in the hand above. He had to call 600K to win 1.7M but he folded. I know it was a tournament but is that move a piece of piss too? Do you think Andy even thought about the pot odds there? He just said to himself "He's got crap, no way can he call me if I push!!!" then once his chips are in the middle "Ehm I just gave Phil Ivey nearly 3-1 and I've got A2, what the hell was I thinking!!"

I think the BB made an amzing play and was very unlucky to get called. The fact that everyone except HJ said fold goes to show what a good move it was.

mickste

I agree you had pot odds to call but would you of posted this query if you lost the hand?

somehow i doubt it:)

comparison to phil ivey vs andy black. i like

NickyOD

mickste wrote:

I agree you had pot odds to call but would you of posted this query if you lost the hand?

somehow i doubt it:)

comparison to phil ivey vs andy black. i like

I would have posted the hand win or lose if he did not have Kings or Aces.

mickste

so if he did have kk or aa u wouldn't?

Fair enough you won through pot odds but not through a good play.

If you had double your stack i dont see you calling here

Not trying to have a go nicky but this is the third time in recent weeks where you have posted very questionable plays where you won hands through pot odds or luck rather than the correct play.

If someone else posted this query I think you would agree they would have to call but would you not advise them them not to get in this position in the first place?

NickyOD

mickste wrote:

so if he did have kk or aa u wouldn't?

Fair enough you won through pot odds but not through a good play.

If you had double your stack i dont see you calling here

Not trying to have a go nicky but this is the third time in recent weeks where you have posted very questionable plays where you won hands through pot odds or luck rather than the correct play

If he AA or KK I'd be too embarassed.

If I only posted hands saying "look how well I played this" I'd be a bit of an asshole wouldn't I? I mean I started the OP by saying my reraise was probably very stupid.

I remember the AJ hand, which I think I played very well in the situation but differently to how I would normally play it. Don't remember the other one. What was it?

Hectorjelly

mickste wrote:

so if he did have kk or aa u wouldn't?

Fair enough you won through pot odds but not through a good play.

If you had double your stack i dont see you calling here

Not trying to have a go nicky but this is the third time in recent weeks where you have posted very questionable plays where you won hands through pot odds or luck rather than the correct play.

If someone else posted this query I think you would agree they would have to call but would you not advise them them not to get in this position in the first place?

winning through pot odds! wtf does that mean

I assume by double your stack you mean double the effective stack, if so then thats obvious. The bigger the raise was the worse odds you would be getting.

There seems to be a lot of confusion as to what pot odds are, the odds you are getting or giving are one of the most important factors at every hand at every stage. They dont just come into play if you have made a mistake or gotten yourself in an awkward situation.

The correct play by definition will take into account pot odds

Marq

NickyOD wrote:

Take Andy Black's hand against Phil Ivey where he pushed in a 4th raise wall in ith A2 giving Phil Ivey better odds than in the hand above. He had to call 600K to win 1.7M but he folded. I know it was a tournament but is that move a piece of piss too? Do you think Andy even thought about the pot odds there? He just said to himself "He's got crap, no way can he call me if I push!!!" then once his chips are in the middle "Ehm I just gave Phil Ivey nearly 3-1 and I've got A2, what the hell was I thinking!!"

These two examples are so far removed from each other that the point probaby doesn't deserve response.

But anyway: In your example, you can't fold because there is a strong chance that this player is wise to what you are doing, and it's a likely situation in this game where people will be re-raising and re-re-raising with muck.

In the WSOP hand, it's so highly unlikely that anyone would stick in the fourth raise giving 3-1 at this stage of the tournament without aces or kings that Ivey has to believe that his hand is utterly crushed against Andy's range. It doesn't matter that Andy had A2, what matters is that 99% of players, 99% of the time, have aces or kings there that 3-1 odds are not enough.

And it's a tournament.

I didn't call everyone an idiot!!!!

I didn't say that you did, I think you misunderstood me here. My point is that anyone who isn't an idiot knows that this is an easy call, so they didn't bother posting.

mickste

yes hector winning thorugh pot odds should be cleared up.

He had to call because of what was invested, the pot odds he was getting on the hand and how much he had left.

very simple

NickyOD

Marq wrote:

And it's a tournament.

Marq wrote:

I didn't say that you did, I think you misunderstood me here. My point is that anyone who isn't an idiot knows that this is an easy call, so they didn't bother posting.

ok, of course you did. Very sorry about that Marq.

I just get highly strung sometimes because so many lurkers on boards seem to want to queue up to knock me down in threads like this.

cardshark202

Edit: Scratch what I said before. Actually having consulted with valor I think this is almost always a fold. I think the re-raise is god-awful here nicky and the QJo is marginally worse. Just cos the guy is capable of making moves doesnt mean he will cold 5-bet all after that action without QQ+. You would need one hell of a read to think that, especially as you call him a good player. He clearly isn't imo.

cardshark202

mickste wrote:

yes hector winning thorugh pot odds should be cleared up.

He had to call because of what was invested, the pot odds he was getting on the hand and how much he had left.

very simple

Says the man who calls all in with KJo cos its his favourite hand.

opr

cardshark202 wrote:

Edit: Scratch what I said before. Actually having consulted with valor I think this is almost always a fold. I think the re-raise is god-awful here nicky and the QJo is marginally worse. Just cos the guy is capable of making moves doesnt mean he will cold 5-bet all after that action without QQ+. You would need one hell of a read to think that, especially as you call him a good player. He clearly isn't imo.

After reading the OP my thoughts were much the same as Valor's and then after reading a few of the other posts i thought i may have got this wrong.

Was running the numbers and thinking about the hand a fair bit and glad to see when i came back to post you more of less had posted what i was thinking.


I mean even if you give him Valor's generous range in his first post far more weighting has to be given to the higher end of the range given the action making it -EV.

I still think its close but a fold IMO given all the information.

Opr

mickste

not correct there Reggie.

I called your all in with my favourite bad hand because i knew you were trying to steal the blinds. what did you have again 32o?;)

Kjo to me is like k4 for bops!

Nicky Im not knocking you down, i dislike your play.

I'm sorry for offending your staus as a player