Tourney Question. Call or fold or does it make a difference?

gosplan

Sorry for the lack of hh.

Freezeout tourney, about 180 players, 19 get paid. Down to 25 or so.

Blinds 800/1,600.

Chip leader on about 30k, average about 16, I've about 14, villian has 9.

I'm in LP, villian is in MP.

He pushes and I've pocket 8's.

Skill level of tourney isn't that good, it's ppp $10 freezeout. I've no problem with finishing ITM but would only be really happy with 1st, 2nd or 3rd.

Anyway based on my general reading of players in the tourney the skill level isn't that great. I've been tight about hand selection and have been getting paid off every time I hit by hands that I dominate.

My reading of this player is any pp lower then jacks or AK/AQ and maybe AJ.

I'm quite confidant that I'm better then most of the table and can outplay them in the long run. I'm also quite confidant that at worst I'm taking a 50/50 here, there's a small chance of 9's or 10's but there's a decent chance that he has a smaller pp.

Shoudl I fold here and have faith in my ability to outplay the rest of the table? Do I have enough chips to call and lose? As the skill level is low, it's kind of hard to play a small stack as people will call an all-in with things they shouldn't.

I'd feel that about half the time I'm racing, 35% he has a lower pp and 15% I'm in big trouble.



Results not really important but long and short is that I call, he shows 2's and flops a set. A few hands later I bubble with my A10s vrs KQ.

LuckyLloyd

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Scouser in Dub

I don't think I am ever folding here you were ahead of his range and made a good call

Iago

push, there's no outplaying anyone when you've only 8 BBs left.

most of the time you're ahead here, and you don't want to limp into the money.

phantom_lord

ship it.

gosplan

Thank you reassuring boards folk.

Last thing.

What's the marker for playing regular poker vrs all-in poker?

I know anything under 5bb's and you've only really one move left.

Is it over 10 and you're comfortable?

How many bb's do you think you'd need to play flops in games with both 8min and 12min blind levels?

charlesanto

gosplan wrote:

Thank you reassuring boards folk.

Last thing.

What's the marker for playing regular poker vrs all-in poker?

I know anything under 5bb's and you've only really one move left.

Is it over 10 and you're comfortable?

How many bb's do you think you'd need to play flops in games with both 8min and 12min blind levels?

The accepted rule amongst posters here is x10 BB ... Personally i hate this this rule because it does not take into account how deep other player are !!! The rule i use is once you drop to half the average stack you have two moves... all-in or fold !

You need to double up to get back to average, drop lower and you need to double up twice soon to get back into contention !

phantom_lord

To play fluid proper post flop poker u need about 30bbs, 20allows a decent amount of play, 15 and you get committed very quickly. 10bb and it's close to shove or fold. 5 is terminal.

Ste05

Don't worry too much about the average stack, what if the average stack is 100 BB's, are you still going all in or fold if you have 50 BB's?

Gosplan, if you want to know why the accepted level is 10 BB's, read Harrington on Hold'Em Volume 1 and 2.

brianmc

phantom_lord wrote:

To play fluid proper post flop poker u need about 30bbs, 20allows a decent amount of play, 15 and you get committed very quickly. 10bb and it's close to shove or fold. 5 is terminal.

Agreed. And so, a combination of this and your own play style should give you an indication of when you need to start ramming and jamming.

charlesanto

Ste05 wrote:

Don't worry too much about the average stack, what if the average stack is 100 BB's, are you still going all in or fold if you have 50 BB's?

Gosplan, if you want to know why the accepted level is 10 BB's, read Harrington on Hold'Em Volume 1 and 2.

I think you should re-read it too Ste0 - isn't his whole end game strategy based around zones which are driven by ratios of your chips to total chips !! ??

Scouser in Dub

Isn't that the q which he states is less important than m if there is any difference between the two

it makes more sense that you can plap post flop poker deep in relation to the blinds though half of the average stack than if you have an average stack = to about 10BB

Ste05

charlesanto wrote:

I think you should re-read it too Ste0 - isn't his whole end game strategy based around zones which are driven by ratios of your chips to total chips !! ??

Eh, No, it's not.

The main focus of the books is about his M number, which is how many orbits of the table you have. (Basically just the amount of BB's you have). The zones that you are referring to are for your current M, I can't remember the exact colours or amounts, but I think it's something like this: The Red Zone is 0-5, the next zone is 5-10, then next zone is 10 - 20 and then it's 20+.

There is some other letter somewhere in there that relates to the average stack but that's only when the stacks get shallow, and doesn't really have anything to do with my original point and it certainly isn't "his whole end game strategy". Did you read my original question to you: "What if the average stack is 100 BB's, are you still going all in or fold if you have 50 BB's?"

EDIT: As Scouser says, I was referring here to the Q number.

phantom_lord

charlesanto wrote:

I think you should re-read it too Ste0 - isn't his whole end game strategy based around zones which are driven by ratios of your chips to total chips !! ??

no, the zones are the ratio of your chips to theblinds and antes.

charlesanto

Ste05 wrote:

....Did you read my original question to you: "What if the average stack is 100 BB's, are you still going all in or fold if you have 50 BB's?"

Ok, in this situation you obviously shouldn't be raising All-In, but i think you must realise that next pot you enter you need to be of the mindset that you are playing for your stack! Once you enter a pot make or see a continuation bet you are committed... At the moment you have some folding equity against the big stacks and you must use it!

I don't believe that you are suggesting that you allow yourself to slip to 10BB's when the average will have moved to 120BBs in the same time!! ??

phantom_lord

charlesanto wrote:

Ok, in this situation you obviously shouldn't be raising All-In, but i think you must realise that next pot you enter you need to be of the mindset that you are playing for your stack! Once you enter a pot make or see a continuation bet you are committed...

lol, not if you have 50bbs.

LuckyLloyd

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Ste05

charlesanto wrote:

Ok, in this situation you obviously shouldn't be raising All-In, but i think you must realise that next pot you enter you need to be of the mindset that you are playing for your stack! Once you enter a pot make or see a continuation bet you are committed... At the moment you have some folding equity against the big stacks and you must use it!
I don't believe that you are suggesting that you allow yourself to slip to 10BB's when the average will have moved to 120BBs in the same time!! ??

I don't know where to start here, I don't understand alot of what you're trying to say. Are you still talking about how we should be looking at the Average stack instead of the No. of BB's we have, because none of these points really have anything to do with that. But a couple of things:

When we have 50 BB's, we don't need to worry about our next hand being for all our chips, we play Poker with more than 50 BB's. Maybe your Continuation bets are huge, but with 50 BB's a Pre-Flop raise and Continuation bet shouldn't leave us in Push-Bot mode.

I don't know what you're talking about when you mention folding equity against big stacks, what does that have to do with the average stack, and how is the difference between 50 BB's and 40 BB's going to make a difference

I also don't know what you mean by letting myself slip down to 10 BB's when the average is 120? If the average stack was 120 BB's there'd be lots of play in the tournament and I'd be playing Poker and trying to accumulate chips but I probably wouldn't be too bothered about what the average stack was if I had ~50 BB's. If I managed to end up at 10 BB's, (say I had 90 BB's and I lost to someone with 80), then I'd be in Push or fold mode. See HoH for why?

Ste05

Nice post Lloyd, I couldn't be bothered to write and explain all that, but a nice little summary.

LuckyLloyd wrote:

The reality with tournaments that give 2000 starting chips; 8 - 12 min levels; and a fast blind structure (20/40 - 40/80 - 80/160 - 100/200 - 150/300 - 200/400 - 300/600) is that there will be little play in the tournament after the first 2 levels. All of the Tribecca tourneys I ever played are crapshoots

Ohh and I Fixed your Post

BigCityBanker

Anybody want to give me a loan of HOH1? It seems like im missing something?

charlesanto

Thanks Ste & Lloyd !

I have read here quiet a few times that "less than 10BBs => any two allin", not that either of you are saying that !

I find it interesting (odd) that neither of you place any importance on the ratio of your stack to average stack !
I believe it is equally important in live tournaments (i don't play online) to pot odds & position at a table. But hey i'm no expert !!!

5starpool

Harrington is a good golfer alright, I fully agree.

Anyways, slightly back on topic. I doubt many of us really need Action Dan to tell us when we are in critical shpe or when we are in ok shape. Reading some basic strategy of when you need to start making moves, how to go about this with the best chance of success etc is all very good, but if you cannot reason this out yourself without a book telling you then a stern examination of your game needs to take place. This only applies if you are a relatively regular player of the game imo, so if you are a new player then of course reading this would be a new concept to you too.

Very little that is contained in the HOH books is groundbreaking as I have stated before. He generally espouses common sense play, and if you are a reasonable player who thinks about the game there should be very little new in this book for you.

LuckyLloyd

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Ste05

charlesanto wrote:

Thanks Ste & Lloyd !

NP.

charlesanto wrote:

I have read here quiet a few times that "less than 10BBs => any two allin", not that either of you are saying that !

Absolutely not, but if the position is correct and your cards are semi decent and you think the whole situation is ripe for a blind steal, then you Push All-In, basically what Lloyd just said. I think the thing is that there's no limping or raising when you have 10 BB's it's just Push or Fold, as in half of your options are no longer valid. That's what we mean when we're talking about Push or Fold, not if you get down to 10 BB's push any 2 until you have more. Certainly not.

charlesanto wrote:

I find it interesting (odd) that neither of you place any importance on the ratio of your stack to average stack !
I believe it is equally important in live tournaments (i don't play online) to pot odds & position at a table. But hey i'm no expert !!!

Live/ Online there's no difference, all that matters is the structure of the tournament, Keeping the average stack in mind will probably actually be quite a mistake, and here's 2 reasons why:

1: If the tournament has lots of play, and you are below the average stack, yet have plenty of BB's left and so lots of time to play Poker, then you will probably play far too loose trying to keep up with the average, just wait for your spots and the average will look after itself.

2: If you the tournament is badly structured and everyone is shallow and the average stack is also shallow but you are near to it, you might play too tight thinking you are safe because you have near to the average, when in reality you need to be stealing blinds while they're available so that you can remain comfortable for the obvious crap shoot that is about to happen when the blinds go up again.