Immigration- A Proper Debate

b2cmac

The economic benefit from immigration is very limited. Government arguments are fallacious. Immigration is not essential to our economic growth. It adds to economic growth but also adds nearly proportionately to our population so that the benefit to the host community is small. (A result found also in the US, Canada and Holland). In the UK.some results show a negative impact on GDP per head – others show a small positive impact equivalent to about 4p per head per week.

Immigrants will have little impact on our ability to pay pensions in future. The Turner Commission in the UK, dismissed this argument for the simple reason that immigrants too will age and require pensions. Their financial input to the Exchequer is, despite government claims, approximately neutral.

Immigration is welcome to many employers because it holds down pay levels, especially for the unskilled, and contributes to lower interest rates. It can also be a source of cheap skilled labour with no training costs. But it is the tax payer who picks up all the costs of the extra infrastructure required.

To the extent that immigration holds down wages it makes it more difficult for the government to achieve their stated aim of moving from welfare.

Are immigrants doing jobs the Irish will no longer do? No. In parts of Ireland where there are few, if any, immigrants. Irish people are doing all these jobs. The fundamental problem is the benefits trap. Wages are held down to a level where for some there is little benefit in working rather than collecting benefits. Wages should be allowed to rise to make lower paid jobs worthwhile and to encourage productivity. Increasing productivity is the only way that a nation can become richer.

Where is this leading?

In the UK, There is growing resentment among the native population of whom 70-80% which?wish to see a tougher immigration policy. They feel that their concerns are being ignored, or dismissed; only 10% feel that the government is listening to public opinion on immigration. The ethnic population is also concerned about the direction of events. A majority of them (55%) also wish to see tighter immigration control. A majority of the population (69%) feel that Britain is losing its own culture.

The natural tendency of some immigrants to join their own communities, and to choose spouses from their countries of origins, is leading to the formation of parallel communities with little contact, or identification, with mainstream British culture. Indeed, in some cases the younger generation is growing up hostile to British culture.

There are also frictions between different communities, sometimes encouraged by satellite television from their home areas. E.g. Pakistani/Indian. Caribbean/Somali. Pakistani/Kurd.

There is no reasons to think Ireland is any different!

A major step must be to limit the scale and pace of further immigration.
An annual limit is essential to restore public confidence in the system.

The introduction of such a limit would be a considerable task and would take some years to be made affective, but is essential for Irelands future.

walrusgumble

whether or not immigration is improving our economy, yes we need thighter control.

we need to sort out issues with immigrants that are here now. we need to deal with future problems such as the possibility of an irish citizen finding it hard to find work and blaming it on immigrants, this amy lead to extreme racism and est of parties like the national front.

lets work with what and who we got at this moment instead of backloging it later when more come in. we need to look at the pit falls that have occured in the uk and avoid them. to be honest it aint as easy as many think,firstly eu citizens as we all now have a right to come to find employment, that is the consequences of being in the eu, it works in our favour too mind as we can do the same. however non eu citizens cant just come in, they have a very strict immigration system to adhere to. i think the dept of justice needs to shape up and cut down on the waiting lists for applications for visa/residence permits/subsidiary protection/leave to remain and the like.

if you notice the dept have issued several hundred deportation orders, yet barely even half have been effected.

i for one have no real problem with immigrants. with regard to fas, they have a list of jobs in various sectors that need to be priortised before allowing non nationals to take up those posts. i think when immigration laws are improved, the ommigration procedure will work effectively, and sort out any fears one may have on this issue. then again maybe i am naive.

either way, it would be good to have a sensible racist free debate about this without getting this thread closed. maybe if everyone respects everyone's views and discusses this in an adult fashion we might finally get a decent discussion on this issue (something rare on this site)

Victor

b2cmac wrote:

In the UK, There is growing resentment among the native population of whom 70-80% which?wish to see a tougher immigration policy. They feel that their concerns are being ignored, or dismissed; only 10% feel that the government is listening to public opinion on immigration. The ethnic population is also concerned about the direction of events. A majority of them (55%) also wish to see tighter immigration control. A majority of the population (69%) feel that Britain is losing its own culture.

Guide To Being English:

• Drive a German car
• Visit an Irish pub for a Belgian beer
• On the way home purchase either fish and chips, an Indian curry, a Turkish kebab, or a Chinese takeaway
• Eat said food while sitting on a Swedish sofa while watching American programmes on a Japanese television
• Be suspicious of all things foreign

Oh yes and don't forget, invade half the world and complain when some of them follow you back.

InFront

b2cmac wrote:

The economic benefit from immigration is very limited.

Right so you agree that we can benefit from immigration, not a bad start.

Government arguments are fallacious. Immigration is not essential to our economic growth.

So hang on then, why are the government letting them in in their thousands? They have nothing to gain from immigration if the economy won't benefit. Do you think it is a conspiracy? These guys cannot vote, why do you think they are here?

It is in the government's interest, more than anyone's, that the economy performs well. The economy is the backbone of this government heading into the general election, it is the strongest muscle they have. Would they compromise that for a colourful and multicultural society? Of course not. It's the economy -...

It adds to economic growth but also adds nearly proportionately to our population so that the benefit to the host community is small. (A result found also in the US, Canada and Holland). In the UK.some results show a negative impact on GDP per head – others show a small positive impact equivalent to about 4p per head per week.

Here what Dr Alan Barrett, economist with the ERSI has to say about Ireland. He and his colleagues have suggested that immigrants have increased GNP and GNP per capita in Ireland. It also suggests that immigrants are actually working in jobs below what might be expected of them when compared with the indigenous population, but that is neither here nor there.
Can you produce some research to show that immigration is bad for Ireland?

It can also be a source of cheap skilled labour with no training costs. But it is the tax payer who picks up all the costs of the extra infrastructure required.

What extra infrastructure cost are you talking about?

To the extent that immigration holds down wages it makes it more difficult for the government to achieve their stated aim of moving from welfare.

Wages should be allowed to rise to make lower paid jobs worthwhile and to encourage productivity. Increasing productivity is the only way that a nation can become richer.

To say "it holds down pay levels" is misleading. It goes without saying that by providing a larger labour pool from which to choose from, salaries will increase at a slower rate than they would have otherwise risen by, but by no means does it hold down wages.
Alan Barret, the author of the paper I linked to, estimates that for 70,000 immigrants, the GNP rises by 3% and wages rise at a pace of about 4.5% slower than they would if there was no immigration.

And what about the idea (uneasily as it may sit with your anti immigrationism) that an increase in wage burdens on employers would actually cause them to take on less people? Especially when one considers the rate at which wages are already rising even with immigration being used.
I think the government's 'open door' policy that it shares with the UK and Sweden with regard to the Eastern Europe is indicative of such a thoughtful policy.

The natural tendency of some immigrants to join their own communities, and to choose spouses from their countries of origins, is leading to the formation of parallel communities with little contact, or identification, with mainstream British culture. Indeed, in some cases the younger generation is growing up hostile to British culture.

Ah, the 'huddled masses argument':rolleyes: Yes better not have them marrying one another eh, nothing worse than a Chinese looking Irishman. We is white.
How on earth can someone live in Ireland in the 21st century and not integrate? Are you for real?

This is a quote taken out of a book by Jacb Riis 'How The Other Half Lives' about historic migration into the USA which has always stuck with me:

"The once unwelcome Irishman has been followed in his turn by the Italian, the Russian Jew, and the Chinaman... and has himself taken a hand at opposition, quite as bitter and quite as ineffectual, against these later hordes."

frictions between different communities, sometimes encouraged by satellite television from their home areas. E.g. Pakistani/Indian.

"Pakistani kills Indian after Indian-looking character in PTV's 'Inspector Khojee disrespects Inspector's Mother" I can't see it tbh. I think we should stick the the factual evidence on immigration and not let our imaginations run away with us.

A major step must be to limit the scale and pace of further immigration.

is essential for Irelands future.

Yet you have not produced a shred of evidence to back it up.

Rock Climber

InFront wrote:

Yet you have not produced a shred of evidence to back it up.

agreed.

Fratton Fred

There are stacks of jobs here, I don't see what the problem is. You could take the Irish Ferries fiasco as an example, but that is more to do with ineffective legislation and greedy employers, don't blame migrants for that.

It is a changing world, immigration is a fact of life in the 21st century, you either rise to the challenge or get left behind, it's as simple s that.

The Irish have been doing it for years.

Fratton Fred

Guide To Being Irish:

• Drive a German car
• Visit an Irish pub for a German beer
• On the way home purchase either fish and chips, an Indian curry, a Turkish kebab, or a Chinese takeaway
• Eat said food while sitting on a Swedish sofa while watching American programmes on a Japanese television
• Be suspicious of all things foreign

Oh yes and don't forget, go and seek jobs around the world and complain when some of them follow you back. :rolleyes:

b2cmac

As we dont really have anything like the research or studies that are carried out in the UK, I will provide Proof from various UK sources.

Proof of the Burden of Local Authority
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-13536644,00.html

Economic Benefit - Sky News report
http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-migrant_030107_2000,00.html

Immigrants cause housing shortage
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1225083,00.html

Proof of migrants keeping wages down
This is why the Irish state want them. To keep inflation down. Good for the Economy bad for the Irish Family.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30400-13520312,00.html

The Great Irish Ferries Saga,
Sack Irish workers, replace them with EU migrants and then let the Irish Tax Payer pay some of the bill!

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0112/irishferries.html

Abuse of Migrant workers in pay sysyem
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1014/immigration.html


Moneypoint!
http://www.rte.ie/business/2006/0314/esb.html

sceptre

b2cmac wrote:

This is why the Irish state want them. To keep inflation down. Good for the Economy bad for the Irish Family.

Hmmm, actually if inflation is kept down it's good for the Irish family or people in general. That's a large part of the reason why we have a policy of keeping inflation restrained where possible in the first place. Having a situation where wages chase prices and prices chase wages isn't much good to anyone. That's commonly referred to as "the early 1980s".

b2cmac

Inflation is kept down on low wages.

Low wages is bad for people and families as it dosent help with paying morgages,
or Increase`s in living costs and standards.

And as many people claim Ireland is one of the dearest countries in europe for living standards.

b2cmac

A report in the times today also states how immigrants coming here who cant get jobs are being sent back home by the state.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/0115/1168815013049.html

Surely controlled immigration would prevent this and be of better benefit to the irish tax payer and the immigrant who becomes homeless!

oscarBravo

b2cmac wrote:

There are also frictions between different communities, sometimes encouraged by satellite television from their home areas. E.g. Pakistani/Indian. Caribbean/Somali. Pakistani/Kurd.

There is no reasons to think Ireland is any different!

What percentage of immigration to Ireland is made up of combined Pakistanis, Indians, Carribeans, Somalis and Kurds? How does this compare to the UK?

I suspect the answer to this question is just one "reason to think Ireland is any different".

Zombrex

Is it not kinda hard to have a "proper debate" about immigration in Ireland when most of your support is based on specific issues in the UK.

b2cmac wrote:

Inflation is kept down on low wages.

I'm not sure what that sentence means. Are you claiming that immigration stops wages rising for the non-skilled work force, a rise that would otherwise happen? I'm not quite sure how you could know this either way, since how do you compare a Celtic Tiger economy with immigration to a Celtic Tiger economy without immigration.

b2cmac wrote:

Surely controlled immigration would prevent this

How exactly?

DadaKopf

Ah, another wonderful invasion by someone from the Stormfront boards, no doubt. Only, I wonder, because this person's grammar isn't as bad as some of the others.

b2cmac wrote:

As we dont really have anything like the research or studies that are carried out in the UK, I will provide Proof from various UK sources.

It's not helpful to assume that UK studies apply to Ireland, and it's particularly disingenuous considering the selectivity of your information.

Today's Irish Times also reports the announcement of two massive research projects into immigration in Ireland. You didn't mention that. In light of this, expert groups and immigrant solidarity groups will have to be consulted in the meantime to inform official policy until these studies' preliminary findings are published.

But since you're happy to make UK comparisons, this article by Will Hutton exposes the underlying motives for your kinds of (badly written) arguments.

A major step must be to limit the scale and pace of further immigration.
An annual limit is essential to restore public confidence in the system.

So you're not opposed to immigration and the integration of immigrants in Ireland, then.

The natural tendency of some immigrants to join their own communities, and to choose spouses from their countries of origins, is leading to the formation of parallel communities with little contact, or identification, with mainstream British culture.

'Natural'. 'British culture'. 'They keep their DNA to themselves'. Rubbish. With people like you, it's no wonder immigrants turn to themselves for community support. Interculturalism requires both sides to change. That means you, dude.

Hobbes

b2cmac wrote:

As we dont really have anything like the research or studies that are carried out in the UK, I will provide Proof from various UK sources.

Interesting proof but like anything you should check up each one.

Proof of the Burden of Local Authority
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-13536644,00.html

Hmm a government lobby group whos objective is to get more money for local authorities is saying they need more money because of immigration.

Who would of thought it.

Economic Benefit - Sky News report
http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-migrant_030107_2000,00.html

Immigrants cause housing shortage
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1225083,00.html

Ooh reports by an anti-immigration group. How non-biased can you get? If you check up on the "4p" comment you will find the UK government have said to take those figures with a pinch of salt.

As for the housing shortage (again migrationwatch) in the news report you can see the UK Government have replied as it being "wrong". Also maybe I misread it but it said to me that there is more money to be made for the housing industry because of immigrants.

Proof of migrants keeping wages down
This is why the Irish state want them. To keep inflation down. Good for the Economy bad for the Irish Family.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30400-13520312,00.html

Of course the other end of that angle is its keeping prices down for people who use those services. But you can always shop elsewhere.

The Great Irish Ferries Saga,

Which is not really relevent as they basically flying under a different flag.

Abuse of Migrant workers in pay sysyem
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1014/immigration.html

While I believe abuse goes on that news report makes no mention at all about pay abuse. If anything it says the lower wages are due to speaking English issues. Also mentions that only half of immigrants actually avail of the social welfare benefits.

Moneypoint!
http://www.rte.ie/business/2006/0314/esb.html

Shock horror a company breaking the law. The more these get reported the better. I don't get the point? This is a company abusing migrants. How is this migrants being bad for the economy?

tallaght01

Could the OP clarify whether they want to see tighter controls on the number of immigrants or the number of refugess we accept? Not sure whixh group he really means.

Hobbes

b2cmac wrote:

Surely controlled immigration would prevent this and be of better benefit to the irish tax payer and the immigrant who becomes homeless!

How exactly? Remember a lot of those people actually had jobs when they came to Ireland.

oscarBravo

DadaKopf wrote:

Ah, another wonderful invasion by someone from the Stormfront boards, no doubt.

...

With people like you...

Let's see if we can debate the issues without getting personal, shall we? Ta.

b2cmac

I only compare to Ireland to the UK as I feel that there isn’t enough relevant information as there is in the UK.

However Ireland does share many similarities with the UK, such as common language, 1 of only 3 countries that allowed the likes of Poland etc to come and work here.

The common Travel area etc.

My own position is we do need a certain king of immigration.

We need skilled workers such as Doctors and nurses, even in some low skilled sectors a certain kind of immigration is needed. This enriches our country which im sure nobody would disagree.

But I feel that immigration should be on a points system such as in America, Canada Australia and so on.

I cannot see any logical argument saying that uncontrolled flow of migrant workers is good.

If it were controlled I seriously don’t think anyone good argue against it, I for one wouldn’t and couldn’t. But at the moment our borders are open to abuse for criminals as well as terrorists. Better border controls with controlled migration is surely the most sensible approach for Irelands future and growth.

Someone also mentioned refugees. I for one do not think we should be banning refugees coming to ireland. I certainly feel that we should only allow genuine cases and we must do our part with the rest of Europe in helping people who are in need. But as I understand it, the level of refugee`s we now accept has gone down since allowing the new EU countries free entry to the Irish Labour markets, something im sure is not a coincidence!

Also Mods, is possible to have a poll? An idea of who is for and against migration? At least then we would have a reflective opinion as what Members of these forums really think without the debate ending up in senseless dribble and the thread being locked.

What harm could a poll do?

Zombrex

b2cmac wrote:

I only compare to Ireland to the UK as I feel that there isn’t enough relevant information as there is in the UK.

Then how have you come to the conclusion that immigration into Ireland is a very bad thing?

It seems like you are putting the horse before the cart. As with so many posts on Boards.ie about immigration you seem to have already made your mind up that immigration is a very bad thing and are now searching around to find facts and figures to back this position up.

Does it not make more sense to find the facts and figures for immigration in Ireland and then draw a conclusion?

b2cmac wrote:

However Ireland does share many similarities with the UK, such as common language

What has that got to do with the economic effects of immigration?

b2cmac wrote:

, 1 of only 3 countries that allowed the likes of Poland etc to come and work here.

True. But we also share the band Girls Aloud (one of the members is from Derry). Without any proper link between these news reports and effects in Ireland any "link" between Ireland and the UK is nothing but conjector. You can argue that we are similar in some areas but equally we are very different, so it becomes rather pointless.

b2cmac wrote:

We need skilled workers such as Doctors and nurses, even in some low skilled sectors a certain kind of immigration is needed. This enriches our country which im sure nobody would disagree.

The aspect of supply and demand already takes care of that. We don't have floods of sky driving instructors from around the world rushing to emigrate to Ireland, because there is not a shortage of sky diving instructors in Ireland.

The areas that we need workers, such as nursing which you mention, are the areas that you find immigrants come over for. We don't appear (as far as I can see from any reports I've seen) to have a big problem in this country of immigrants coming over to work in industry where there isn't jobs for them.

I would also point out that what we need is rather irrelivent. The reason Poland was allowed join the EU was not because we needed their workers, and when we don't need them any more Poland should be kicked out of the EU.

b2cmac wrote:

But I feel that immigration should be on a points system such as in America, Canada Australia and so on.

That won't work inside the EU.

b2cmac wrote:

I cannot see any logical argument saying that uncontrolled flow of migrant workers is good.

"Good" is kinda beside the point. Necessary for a working EU is more the point. It is impossible to tell how freedom of movement inside the EU will ultimately end up effecting each of the member countries 5 years down the line, 10 years down the line. I doubt anyone in the EU in the early 80s would have predicted the Celtic Tiger economy that would appear only 10 years later in Ireland.

The point of the EU is not the immediate benefit to the member states. Poland and the other new States didn't join the EU to immediately benefit us, or the UK. The joined for the long term benefit of widening the common market.

If the new states join in name only, with heavy restrictions on them that other countries don't have, then that kinda defeats the purpose of the whole idea.

b2cmac wrote:

If it were controlled I seriously don’t think anyone good argue against it

Lots of people would argue against it. For a start the Polish would have a very legitamate argument as to why it is perfectly fine for an French, German, or Belgium person to go work in Ireland, yet not perfectly fine for a Polish person to do exactly the same.

b2cmac wrote:

But at the moment our borders are open to abuse for criminals as well as terrorists.

What has that got to do with immigration? It is kinda hard to take your "proper debate" seriously when you come up with this kinda scaremongering. Unless you plan to closer the borders completely I'm not sure what your propose here

b2cmac wrote:

But as I understand it, the level of refugee`s we now accept has gone down since allowing the new EU countries free entry to the Irish Labour markets, something im sure is not a coincidence!

That isn't the reason refugee levels went down. No one from Poland or Romania could claim refugee status here anyway (you cannot claim refugee status unless you come from a country without a free functioning police force that can protect you from what ever you are fleeing). The refugee levels went down because the government made it harder to qualify as a refugee in Ireland.

b2cmac wrote:

Also Mods, is possible to have a poll? An idea of who is for and against migration?

That seems rather ridiculously general a question?

Does that include people from Kerry or Mayo coming up to Dublin and driving house prices up for the hard working honest Dubs like myself?

Would it include people from England, France, Spain coming and working here?

Would it include the thousands of Irish who leave Ireland each year to go work in the US, or legally in Europe?

Tea drinker

Yep, some good things coming up here....
But lets have a little background info:
Yes, we went all over the world, doing the welfare systems, telephone systems etc. Ok it was actually mostly english speaking countries...
Well anyway we went where we got a better life / could get into. Just like all the people coming here now. Back in the day we did not have an ass in our pants and were the hind of Europe, teetering on civil war. Everybody visiting used to wonder what life was like with all the bombs going off.

Ok NOW things are better but keeping a little of the humility we had before would be real welcome. This country is still booming for a fair % of folks and the rest of us are doin ok. That's why all these people are coming here. Some great workers, genuine people, different culture, and some nice chicks too! I'm married to one......


But... that's not all.
I thought it was very appropriate that a bunch of muslim (wow I wasn't afraid to mention religion) murderers and rapists were occupying the cathedral in town last year. Nothing against Muslims mind you but would a bunch of Paddies be allowed to occupy a mosque?
I think there is nothing wrong with Ireland being for Irish people first.
I think there is nothing wrong with curtailing immigration to maintain our national stability, avoid overuse of infrastructure, overcrowding, unsustainable growth and to preserve our cultural and religous heritage.
This is a Christian country and I want to see it remain as such.
The vast majority of european nations had colonial exploits and now they are reaping what they have sown. There is no need for Ireland to follow suit, we were an occupied nation.
There is an abundance of people who are welcome, we still have one of the lowest pop density in Europe.
But there is a few who are not.....IMHO

I don't understand how receiving a pre trained worker is a bad thing?
A person who hasn't taken a shred of (Irish) taxpayers money is the same value as someone who required education, medical services, police services etc while growing up....... that simply does not add up.

Discrimination, negative or positive is wrong.
People coming here to lie up on the system gave foregners a bad name. I think some of the governments mistake is being undone on the backs of the new wave of immigrants.

Zombrex

Tea drinker wrote:

Nothing against Muslims mind you but would a bunch of Paddies be allowed to occupy a mosque?
I think there is nothing wrong with Ireland being for Irish people first.

You think only Irish rapists and murders should be allowed occupy St. Patricks?

Tea drinker wrote:

I think there is nothing wrong with curtailing immigration to maintain our national stability

What is our "national stability" ... seriously, I'm not sure what you are talking about here. How is that defined, and how do we define if something is "curtailing" it?

Tea drinker wrote:

This is a Christian country and I want to see it remain as such.

This is not actually a Christian country. It is a secular country, a secular country that contains Christians, along with a lot of other religions.

You can check, its in the Constitution.

Tea drinker wrote:

The vast majority of european nations had colonial exploits and now they are reaping what they have sown. There is no need for Ireland to follow suit, we were an occupied nation.
There is an abundance of people who are welcome...
But there is a few who are not.....IMHO
...
Discrimination, negative or positive is wrong.

Discrimination is wrong, except when we are discriminating based on religion? How does that work?

Tea drinker wrote:

People coming here to lie up on the system gave foregners a bad name.

No offence, but you don't seem to be giving foreigners a particularly good name either

b2cmac

Error

b2cmac

Responses to Wicknight

Then how have you come to the conclusion that immigration into Ireland is a very bad thing?

It seems like you are putting the horse before the cart. As with so many posts on Boards.ie about immigration you seem to have already made your mind up that immigration is a very bad thing and are now searching around to find facts and figures to back this position up.

Does it not make more sense to find the facts and figures for immigration in Ireland and then draw a conclusion?

I base my views on immigration due to people I talk to and things i see or do. Now I dont want to mention these as people will jump on the bandwagon and say prove it. But my gut feeling is what I have to go with.

Also I didnt say immigration into Ireland was a bad thing. Please dont put words into my mouth. I said Immigration should be controlled. Surely that isnt a bad thing. Can you telly me why it shouldnt?

However Ireland does share many similarities with the UK, such as common language

What has that got to do with the economic effects of immigration?

It allows us to compare closely with our nearest neighbours. This gives us a working example of a country that has the same policy on immigration as us due to the common travel area.

1 of only 3 countries that allowed the likes of Poland etc to come and work here.

True. But we also share the band Girls Aloud (one of the members is from Derry). Without any proper link between these news reports and effects in Ireland any "link" between Ireland and the UK is nothing but conjector. You can argue that we are similar in some areas but equally we are very different, so it becomes rather pointless

.


the link between Ireland and the UK is exactly the same. We both adopt the same policies on immigration due to the common travel area.

The aspect of supply and demand already takes care of that. We don't have floods of sky driving instructors from around the world rushing to emigrate to Ireland, because there is not a shortage of sky diving instructors in Ireland.

The areas that we need workers, such as nursing which you mention, are the areas that you find immigrants come over for. We don't appear (as far as I can see from any reports I've seen) to have a big problem in this country of immigrants coming over to work in industry where there isn't jobs for them.

I would also point out that what we need is rather irrelivent. The reason Poland was allowed join the EU was not because we needed their workers, and when we don't need them any more Poland should be kicked out of the EU.

No it dosent. Many reports state that Highly skilled EU workers are coming here doing low skilled jobs for the money. THis is clearly explotation. A controlled system would surelly benefit High Skilled workers as much as Ireland, as put a end to explotation.

Also I sure everyone would agree Driving instructors are something we do need. But because we dont have any control of who comes here and who they are what they do we cant see where skilled workers go. A points system would see who people what they do and allow them access to the Irish Labour Markets.

But I feel that immigration should be on a points system such as in America, Canada Australia and so on.

That won't work inside the EU.

Why? The British are talking about it. Germany France etc didnt even let in Poland etc.

And surely each country can bring this matter up to the EU. And since when have countries really cared about EU policy? France kept defying the Ban on British beef for years despite being fined by the EU.

I

cannot see any logical argument saying that uncontrolled flow of migrant workers is good.

"Good" is kinda beside the point. Necessary for a working EU is more the point. It is impossible to tell how freedom of movement inside the EU will ultimately end up effecting each of the member countries 5 years down the line, 10 years down the line. I doubt anyone in the EU in the early 80s would have predicted the Celtic Tiger economy that would appear only 10 years later in Ireland.

The point of the EU is not the immediate benefit to the member states. Poland and the other new States didn't join the EU to immediately benefit us, or the UK. The joined for the long term benefit of widening the common market.

If the new states join in name only, with heavy restrictions on them that other countries don't have, then that kinda defeats the purpose of the whole idea.

Surely and Goverment or head of state of Ireland should Ireland first. We are not in the EU to benefit Poland etc. When Ireland benefited from the EU in the 80`s, how many Irish flocked to Germany, France, Spain etc. Certainly not as many as have come here. Controoled migration would still allow these countries access to Irish Labour markets but in controlled way.

And surely it cant be good for places like Poland to be loosing there Labour markets to places such as Ireland? Dosent Poland need these workers also?

If it were controlled I seriously don’t think anyone good argue against it


Lots of people would argue against it. For a start the Polish would have a very legitamate argument as to why it is perfectly fine for an French, German, or Belgium person to go work in Ireland, yet not perfectly fine for a Polish person to do exactly the same.

But that is already the case. Polish workers cant work in France, Germany or the home of Europe Belgium!

But at the moment our borders are open to abuse for criminals as well as terrorists.


What has that got to do with immigration? It is kinda hard to take your "proper debate" seriously when you come up with this kinda scaremongering. Unless you plan to closer the borders completely I'm not sure what your propose here

Because we dont know who comes through our borders. These rights were given away so that we could allow the uncontrolled movement of migrant workers. Just how are we going to stop a low skilled Romanian worker coming to work here? We say they can but how do we stop it. Controlled Immigration would give us back control of our borders to help prevent abuse on all levels.

But as I understand it, the level of refugee`s we now accept has gone down since allowing the new EU countries free entry to the Irish Labour markets, something im sure is not a coincidence!


That isn't the reason refugee levels went down. No one from Poland or Romania could claim refugee status here anyway (you cannot claim refugee status unless you come from a country without a free functioning police force that can protect you from what ever you are fleeing). The refugee levels went down because the government made it harder to qualify as a refugee in Ireland.

But because of the amount of immigrants coming here, we restrict the number of Asylum seekers we allow.

How else do you explain the drop in Asylum?

Also Mods, is possible to have a poll? An idea of who is for and against migration?


That seems rather ridiculously general a question?

Does that include people from Kerry or Mayo coming up to Dublin and driving house prices up for the hard working honest Dubs like myself?

Would it include people from England, France, Spain coming and working here?

Would it include the thousands of Irish who leave Ireland each year to go work in the US, or legally in Europe?

Whats wrong with a poll. Surely the Idea of a poll is ANYONE can vote. It could even be that most people are in favour of uncontrolled immigration.

Hobbes

Tea drinker wrote:

I thought it was very appropriate that a bunch of muslim (wow I wasn't afraid to mention religion) murderers and rapists were occupying the cathedral in town last year.

Your wrong. There were a group of people occupying the church of which one or two of them were wanted for crimes. The rest were not. You also neglected to mention that there were people who weren't even refugees in the Church who were also hunger striking.

Nothing against Muslims mind you but would a bunch of Paddies be allowed to occupy a mosque?

Muslim isn't a country. It's a religion. Also what you should be saying is "would a bunch of Paddies be allowed to occupy a mosque in XXXX" (insert Iran, Iraq, etc). Good question.

Although I suspect your trying to imply they would be killed or something. Of course "what if" arguments are great but totally devoid of facts.

Also why compare ourselves to the worst? Why not compare ourselves to the best and try to beat or emulate them.

I think there is nothing wrong with Ireland being for Irish people first.

I am sure Irish Muslims are happy to hear that.

I think there is nothing wrong with curtailing immigration to maintain our national stability, avoid overuse of infrastructure, overcrowding, unsustainable growth and to preserve our cultural and religous heritage.

Which we have yet to see any proof this is actually happening. You appear to know, how about posting some proof.

This is a Christian country and I want to see it remain as such.

So anyone who isn't Christian should leave? What about the Jewish people or third generation+ Muslims? You argue about others being intolerant to other religons yet appear to want the same.

Also I have no idea what age you are, but I still remember a time when the Catholic church had a large hold on the government and it wasn't pretty. Even now they have somewhat of a grasp that is screwing up the country to some extent.

There is an abundance of people who are welcome, we still have one of the lowest pop density in Europe.
But there is a few who are not.....IMHO

Who is this few?

People coming here to lie up on the system gave foregners a bad name. I think some of the governments mistake is being undone on the backs of the new wave of immigrants.

What do you mean lie up on the system?

Hobbes

b2cmac wrote:

I base my views on immigration due to people I talk to and things i see or do. Now I dont want to mention these as people will jump on the bandwagon and say prove it. But my gut feeling is what I have to go with.

Well that's great if your talking down the pub but in this forum your expected to research and present your claims.

I noticed you skip over a lot of the questions.

Also ask yourself this. If a person worked in a complaints department in Ireland do you think they would see the full demographic of Irish people or only those that complain?

b2cmac

Hobbes wrote:

Well that's great if your talking down the pub but in this forum your expected to research and present your claims.

Thats why I said I didnt want to talk about my own views. But everything I have said has been backed up by Proof.

I noticed you skip over a lot of the questions.

Im sorry but what questions did I skip. I will try and answer any and every question I can.

Also ask yourself this. If a person worked in a complaints department in Ireland do you think they would see the full demographic of Irish people or only those that complain?

But this isnt a complaints department. This is a forum. Such we hear both sides. A complaints department like you state only hears complaints.


Im sorry but what questions did I skip. I will try and answer any and every question I can.

DadaKopf

But everything I have said has been backed up by Proof.

Except that, by your own admission, we don't really know all we should know about what is going on in Ireland in terms of immigration and integration.

Tea drinker

No offence taken, we need to be open here.
I do feel there's nothing wrong with my statements on foreigners, please understand that from my point of view it's ok to criticse what I see as wrong..... obviously enough.

National stability, well the previous war based on religion/oppression/nationalisn etc in Ireland will do us for a while.
Riots in France, rise of fascism (again) in germany, British national party, riots in uk a few years back, all were sowed because of poor immigration policies / colonialism. Why not manage it?

Don't get me started on our own (Irish) scumbags, but this forum was only dealing with good/bad on foreigners!!!!!!!!!!!

As for the constitution, I left my copy at home today, but from a religous breakdown it is for sure Christian.
Ok, yeah, I did discriminate based on religion... but I won't apologise for that. I still say it's in our own interests to maintain Ireland as a Christian country, and that is not meant to offend Muslims. It's how I feel and like I said, if the shoe were on the other foot they would feel the same, I think.

The main point I am struggling to get across is I am VERY happy to see foreign workers coming here, and they certainly are adding to the economy. There are many well educated guys and gals coming here and making this a more skilled-up country. The vast majority are hard working folk who either want a new life here or want to get a few bob together to buy a place at home. I can't fault anyone for that.
Clear enough?

oscarBravo

b2cmac wrote:

Im sorry but what questions did I skip.

Well, for a start:

oscarBravo wrote:

What percentage of immigration to Ireland is made up of combined Pakistanis, Indians, Carribeans, Somalis and Kurds? How does this compare to the UK?

b2cmac wrote:

Also Mods, is possible to have a poll?

No.

b2cmac wrote:

At least then we would have a reflective opinion as what Members of these forums really think without the debate ending up in senseless dribble and the thread being locked.

Do your part by not posting any "senseless dribble", and I'll do my bit as mod to stop anyone else from doing so.

Tea drinker wrote:

I still say it's in our own interests to maintain Ireland as a Christian country...

Why?

Tea drinker

Can I make one request? If we are going to post here, please post your OWN comments and opinions, rather than just commenting on those gone before??? Please comment away on others by all means as well.....

Hobbes

b2cmac wrote:

Thats why I said I didnt want to talk about my own views. But everything I have said has been backed up by Proof.

I haven't seen any proof at all. In fact you don't appear to research any of your claims. Everything you posted looked like 2 minutes in google search with absolutly no research on the backgrounds to the stories.

In some cases it even looks like you didn't even read the stories you linked to.

Im sorry but what questions did I skip. I will try and answer any and every question I can.

Read back.

But this isnt a complaints department. This is a forum. Such we hear both sides. A complaints department like you state only hears complaints.

I am not talking about this forum. I am talking about peoples "personal views". If I worked in a complaints department all I would see is people complaining so my world view would be of one that all Irish people are moany bastids. When this would be incorrect.

It is not enough to "trust your gut" or base your world view on your personal experiences. They help to a point but your not going to learn unless you research your claims to determine if they are actually true.

bonkey

Tea drinker wrote:

Riots in France, rise of fascism (again) in germany, British national party, riots in uk a few years back, all were sowed because of poor immigration policies / colonialism.

Were they? Can you establish this, and show that it wasn't - for example - sown by an unwillingness of enough of the population to accept the immigrants rather than treating them like second-class citizens?

Correlation <> Causation.

Why not manage it?

Our immigration is managed. You - or anyone else - has yet to establish that it is badly managed nor suggest what better management would entail.

As for the constitution, I left my copy at home today, but from a religous breakdown it is for sure Christian.

White too. Does that mean we should keep out people of different skin colour?

It doesn't matter what the demographics are. What matters is the law, particularly teh constitution. The Constitution makes discrimination on religious grounds illegal.

Ok, yeah, I did discriminate based on religion... but I won't apologise for that. I still say it's in our own interests to maintain Ireland as a Christian country, and that is not meant to offend Muslims. It's how I feel and like I said, if the shoe were on the other foot they would feel the same, I think.

You're entitled to your opinion. However, your opinion doesn't permit the government to act unconstitutionally.

Also, "I'm sure they'd do it to us" is about the weakest possible argument for suggesting that something is right.

Finally, I'm wondering if you object to the decreasing levels of Christianity in Ireland. It has nothing to do with immigration, I know, but the church has been steadily losing its hold on the populace, fewer are enrolling to the priesthood, atheism and agnosticism are on the rise.....but amazingly we never see half so many threads complaining about all of these threats to our Christian nation as we do to the influx of other religions. Indeed...regarding the influx of other religions, there only ever seems to be one which is mentioned again and again.

Strange, that. Wouldn't you agree?

The main point I am struggling to get across is I am VERY happy to see foreign workers coming here, and they certainly are adding to the economy. There are many well educated guys and gals coming here and making this a more skilled-up country. The vast majority are hard working folk who either want a new life here or want to get a few bob together to buy a place at home. I can't fault anyone for that.
Clear enough?

Not really, because this is at odds with your opposition to Muslims.

Foreign, hard-working, adding to the economy, skilled, want a new life and/or get a few bob, and muslim.......where do you stand on such people? They seem to fall both into the people you object to and those you say you've no problem with.

oscarBravo

Tea drinker wrote:

Can I make one request? If we are going to post here, please post your OWN comments and opinions, rather than just commenting on those gone before??? Please comment away on others by all means as well.....

I don't see a need to frame the debate on those terms. The OP has presented a point of view that s/he would obviously like others to agree with. If others see problems with that point of view, they can challenge them - it's not necessary for them to nail their colours to the mast first.

Back on topic.

Zombrex

b2cmac wrote:

I base my views on immigration due to people I talk to and things i see or do.

Is that not a bit silly, considering you could not possibly be able to get a wide view of the complex issues involved by simply forming your opinions based on the very limited contact you would have with immigrants.

The "I heard from a mate in the pub.." type posts are particularly frowned upon in the Politics forum. They are given about as much weight as taxi drivers opinions.

b2cmac wrote:

But my gut feeling is what I have to go with.

Your "gut" feeling is not really something to base the immigration policy of a nation on, is it?

b2cmac wrote:

Also I didnt say immigration into Ireland was a bad thing. Please dont put words into my mouth. I said Immigration should be controlled.

I never quite understand what people mean when they say this. Immigration is controlled. Immigration has always been controlled.

Do you mean immigration within the EU Free Movement zone should be controlled?

b2cmac wrote:

It allows us to compare closely with our nearest neighbours.

Geographical location doesn't appear to have a whole lot to do with similarities between countries with regard to economic circumstances. After all Poland is located closer to German than we are to the UK.

b2cmac wrote:

This gives us a working example of a country that has the same policy on immigration as us due to the common travel area.

The UK has rather different economic circumstances to us at the moment. Therefore any conclusions draw from studying the UK with regard to immigration would be rather circumstantial at best. They would certainly apply to the UK, but to say that they also apply to us because we are located near (geographically speaking) the UK is nonsense.

b2cmac wrote:

No it dosent. Many reports state that Highly skilled EU workers are coming here doing low skilled jobs for the money. THis is clearly explotation.

Of who? The skill of the worker has little to do with whether or not someone is being exploited. Exploitation applies to the working conditions and the pay for the job itself. It doesn't matter if a doctor is doing the job or a leaving cert student.

b2cmac wrote:

A controlled system would surelly benefit High Skilled workers as much as Ireland, as put a end to explotation.

I'm not following. How?

b2cmac wrote:

Also I sure everyone would agree Driving instructors are something we do need. But because we dont have any control of who comes here and who they are what they do we cant see where skilled workers go.

Not within the EU, no we don't have control.

But I'm not sure how having control over this would help us that much. If driving instructors aren't coming here, how does kicking out the English guy working behind a bar, or the Polish lady at the Spar deli counter, going to change that fact?

b2cmac wrote:

Why? The British are talking about it. Germany France etc didnt even let in Poland etc.

Yes but only for a fixed amount of time. We choose not to avail of the option because we actually wanted all these immigrants. Does that not tell you something...?

b2cmac wrote:

And surely each country can bring this matter up to the EU. And since when have countries really cared about EU policy? France kept defying the Ban on British beef for years despite being fined by the EU.

So you aren't a fan of the EU then ... fair enough, but do you not think that we availed of the best of the EU for years during the very hard years in Ireland? Is it not a little hypocritical of us to now turn around and complain about people coming to Ireland, complaining when you have still to make a link between immigration and any serious long term damage to the State.

b2cmac wrote:

Surely and Goverment or head of state of Ireland should Ireland first.

"First" in relation to what exactly? We have the best economy we have ever had and we have the lowest unemployment figures we have ever had. After years and years of other countries helping us out, either with infrastructure funding or taking on our unemployed work first, we have emerge out the other end pretty damn good. How exactly could we be any more "first"?

b2cmac wrote:

We are not in the EU to benefit Poland etc.

Yes actually, we are. We took from the EU when we were poor and in desperate need of funds. We cannot do that and not give back to the newer member states who now find themselves in the same position we did in the 70s and 80s.

b2cmac wrote:

When Ireland benefited from the EU in the 80`s, how many Irish flocked to Germany, France, Spain etc.

Hundreds of thousands. In the 1950s we were losing people at an average rate of 43,000 a year, and in the 1980s the average was 27,000 a year. 70,000 emigrated from Ireland in 1989 alone.

b2cmac wrote:

Certainly not as many as have come here.

It doesn't work like that. Poland has a population that is 10 times larger than Ireland. They are losing less of their population to emigration than we were

b2cmac wrote:

And surely it cant be good for places like Poland to be loosing there Labour markets to places such as Ireland? Dosent Poland need these workers also?

Do you actually understand why these Polish people are coming to Ireland? I don't mean to patrionising, but sometimes, based on comments like this, it makes me wonder do you?

Poland has a 14% unemployment rate at the moment. These workers are coming to Ireland because we do not have enough workers for the jobs we have available. We have the lowest unemployment in the EU, yet we have a still growing economy, and an increasingly wealthy population. Which means lots of business for the services industry, and as such lots of low skilled jobs that need to be filled. They come here because they can find work in these jobs.

If they could find work at home, or could not find work here, they would not come here.

b2cmac wrote:

Polish workers cant work in France, Germany or the home of Europe Belgium!

And? Firstly France German and Belgium don't have our economy (they wish they had)

Secondly surely you would welcome this, since if the Polish immigrants cannot find work in Ireland they won't come here, and your "problem" is solved.

b2cmac wrote:

Because we dont know who comes through our borders.

That isn't true. You require a passport for moving between EU countries. The country doesn't stop you, but that isn't to say that they don't require you show identification. The only movement one has where they do not need to show identification is movement within Ireland, and even then some airlines require that people show either a passport or valid driving licence.

b2cmac wrote:

Just how are we going to stop a low skilled Romanian worker coming to work here?

Why would we want to? Considering Romania has a growing economy and low unemployment figures I wouldn't worry to much.

If you are working under the assumption that Romanian = Criminal, then we can stop anyone from entering the country, from Romania or otherwise, if we valid reason to suspect that they are engaging in illegal activities here. Though I would point out that "being Romanian" isn't a valid reason.

b2cmac wrote:

We say they can but how do we stop it.

The same way we have always stopped it, at the airport, with guns and dogs. Probably.

b2cmac wrote:

But because of the amount of immigrants coming here, we restrict the number of Asylum seekers we allow.

No we don't. As far as I know that would actually be illegal, to turn away refugees because of economic factors such as legal immigration. We are obligated to take any legitimate refugee that comes here. In fact since 1989 we have taken refugees from other countries, as part of an UN quota system.

b2cmac wrote:

How else do you explain the drop in Asylum?

I explain it by the European wide decrease in asylum seekers since 2003. http://www.migrationinformation.org/Feature/display.cfm?id=218

The reasons for this decrease are probably wide and complicated, but I see no reason to think it has anything to do with Irelands relationship with Eastern European workers.

b2cmac wrote:

Whats wrong with a poll.

There is nothing wrong with a poll. It keeps my tent up.

There is something wrong with your poll, the question is far far to vague to give an meaningful results. Though I notice you have now changed from "migration" to "uncontrolled immigration"

gurramok

I think the OP is getting at and what Tea Drinker is getting at..

If a large enough number of immigrants come here and eventually outnumber the natives, the nature of our Irish identity would be seriously challenged unless those said immigrants of whatever religion/race are integrated into society and become Irish citizens and abide by the constitution.

At the moment, an open border with uncontrolled immigration is not a good thing in my view not neccessarily on the jobs front but where they're loyalities to the Irish constitution lie if they manage to get the vote at elections without integration.
At the moment, it is reckoned about 10% of the population is non-Irish, is it a good thing if it reaches 51% without integration?..I think not.

What i think TeaDrinker is worried about is that fears are further exasperated in a religous sense if those 51% were Muslim and sought an Islamic society here, do we really like the country to turn into an Islamic society/republic by virtue of the above scenario?

If 12 other members of the EU before enlargement decided to restrict immigration from the new EU 10 back in '04, why were the pro-immigrant lobby NOT screaming racism at those countries?
Controlled immigration allows integration and assimilation into the general population more smoothly rather than allowing a reputed 400,000 in a population of 3.9m in 2 years.

I've asked this question before and no-one seems to know the answer:

Are there background checks on every immigrant for criminal convictions even if only 1% have a bad record to prevent us importing more scumbags in addtional to our own ones to deal with?

Victor

Tea drinker wrote:

Don't get me started on our own (Irish) scumbags, but this forum was only dealing with good/bad on foreigners!!!!!!!!!!!

So this thread is good enough for foreigners, but not Irish?

As for the constitution, I left my copy at home today, but from a religous breakdown it is for sure Christian.

It has a Catholic slant and a Catholic preamble, thats all.

Zombrex

Tea drinker wrote:

please understand that from my point of view it's ok to criticse what I see as wrong

Which is what exactly...?

Tea drinker wrote:

National stability, well the previous war based on religion/oppression/nationalisn etc in Ireland will do us for a while.

So ... what? We should place a ban on protestant immigration?

Tea drinker wrote:

Why not manage it?

We do manage "it" (if by "it" you mean immigration)

Tea drinker wrote:

As for the constitution, I left my copy at home today, but from a religous breakdown it is for sure Christian.

Article 44 Section 2

1° Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen.
2° The State guarantees not to endow any religion.
3° The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status.
4° Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.
5° Every religious denomination shall have the right to manage its own affairs, own, acquire and administer property, movable and immovable, and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes.
6° The property of any religious denomination or any educational institution shall not be diverted save for necessary works of public utility and on payment of compensation.


I've highlighted the important parts.

Trust me, being an atheist, if Ireland was a Christian State, rather than a secular state, I would probably not be still living here.

Tea drinker wrote:

Ok, yeah, I did discriminate based on religion... but I won't apologise for that.

You don't have to apologies, just don't claim discrimination is wrong. You clearly think religious discrimination is fine, so long as you are doing the discriminating.

Tea drinker wrote:

I still say it's in our own interests to maintain Ireland as a Christian country,

It ain't in mine I assure you :rolleyes:

Tea drinker wrote:

Clear enough?

As mud.

purple'n'gold

No one can have any quibble with legitimate immigration. Polish people etc are perfectly entitled to come and live and work here. My problem is with people from outside the EU that just turn up here looking for asylum. They are supposed to look for political asylum in the first EU country they enter. How for instance do Nigerians come to Ireland? There are no direct flights from Nigeria. They have to come through a 3rd country to get here, why are they not returned to that country immediately?

Victor

By ship?

Zombrex

gurramok wrote:

What i think TeaDrinker is worried about is that fears are further exasperated in a religous sense if those 51% were Muslim and sought an Islamic society here, do we really like the country to turn into an Islamic society/republic by virtue of the above scenario?

Firstly that assumes that all Muslims who come here want an Islamic state. Which is nonsense.

Secondly you need a 2/3 majority to change the constitution, and only Irish citizens can vote in constitutional referendums. Which means, based on current population figures, you would need 8 million Muslims citizens who actually want to change the constitution to an Islamic state.

Basing current opinions of immigration on such a ridiculously unlikely situation is simply daft. It is pointless scaremongering. It also feeds the idea that Muslims are all coming here to change Ireland into an Islamic state, which leads to distrust and religious bigotry towards Muslims. How does that help intergration.

gurramok wrote:

If 12 other members of the EU before enlargement decided to restrict immigration from the new EU 10 back in '04, why were the pro-immigrant lobby NOT screaming racism at those countries?

They were. A number of groups have launched legal challenges in the UK and Europe over the restrictions placed on Romania and Bulgeria.

gurramok wrote:

Controlled immigration allows integration and assimilation into the general population more smoothly

These are EU workers you are talking about. Most probably don't care too much about long term integration.

None of my Irish friends living in Europe give two hoots about interegration with these countries, beyond learning to say "How much is that pint" and "Do you want to come home with me" (that is a different kind of intergration). They all plan to come back to Ireland within the next 3-5 years.

gurramok wrote:

Are there background checks on every immigrant for criminal convictions even if only 1% have a bad record to prevent us importing more scumbags in addtional to our own ones to deal with?

No, not unless you apply to work in a job that requires a background check.

You may notice you are not background checked when you go to Paris for the weekend, or fly to Scotland to go skiing for a fortnight.

purple'n'gold

Victor wrote:

By ship?

how many ships come directly from Nigeria to Irealnd every year? I would guess few if any. And if they did, they would not have Nigerian crews.

Zombrex

purplengold wrote:

They have to come through a 3rd country to get here, why are they not returned to that country immediately?

They can be, but often the Dublin Convention is largely unworkable. You first have to determine if they did enter another EU country before Ireland, which can be very difficult.

Victor

Wicknight wrote:

Secondly you need a 2/3 majority to change the constitution, and only Irish citizens can vote in constitutional referendums.

No, its half.

Wicknight wrote:

None of my Irish friends living in Europe give two hoots about interegration with these countries, beyond learning to say "How much is that pint" and "Do you want to come home with me" (that is a different kind of intergration).

I used "Veux tu retournez chez moi?" in a pub once, the lads objected, thinking I was a bit cheeky. I then reminded them that she was my housemate.

b2cmac

An Irish Times poll Last year showed a massive 78% of people backed ideas to introduce a work permit system.

Most voters see the presence of foreign workers here as good for the Irish economy and society.

However, majorities also see their presence as making it harder for Irish people to get jobs and believe it is pushing down pay and working conditions here.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2006/0123/3166143057HM1MAINPOLL.html

Xavier McAuliffe, the Spectra Photo founder, whose personal wealth is estimated at €60 million, said that unchecked immigration has the potential to create serious social problems in Ireland in the future
http://wicklowhills.blogspot.com/2006/06/sense-on-immigration.html

Dontico

b2cmac wrote:

that immigrants too will age and require pensions.

dam it. i thought the chinese where immortal!:D

i see most immigrants as useful. every job i have had an interview for, i have gotten. i as a student i go for the low paid jobs. almost every chinese person i have talked to have told me they plan to go back thier with the skills they have learnt. if they chose to stay, so be it. the poles are new here and are intitled to stay here, when they fully adapt they can do courses and lean useful skills we need in the country. every arab person i have met(not that i have interviewed every arab that has come in) are either doing medicine, denistry, computers or a science subject. thus as i regard them as very usefull.

other uses of immigrants. more varried shops and restraunts, the more irish consumers are interested in spending money and enjoy life better. the more multiculture the better. i like to learn.

i do agree we should have some control over immigration. should be restricted to e.u. countries. and people coming over that are conected to a university or referanced from a school. or people tht have made an agreement with a company in ireland to work for them, under our labour law, of course.

the biggest downside to immigrants is the eventual dilution of our culture if immigrants chose to stay here. my solution o this is to produce more irish people. i for one are up for some baby making.;)

bonkey

b2cmac wrote:

An Irish Times poll Last year showed a massive 78% of people backed ideas to introduce a work permit system.

A work permit system for who? It would seem the majority of immigrants being complained about are simply availing of the freedom of movement intra-EU that they are entitled to by law.

There can be no permit system for such people.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2006/0123/3166143057HM1MAINPOLL.html

Xavier McAuliffe, the Spectra Photo founder, whose personal wealth is estimated at €60 million, said that unchecked immigration has the potential to create serious social problems in Ireland in the future
http://wicklowhills.blogspot.com/2006/06/sense-on-immigration.html

Wel, if one rich man agrees with you, you must be right. I dunno what everyone else is thinking.

tallaght01

From reading this thread, it still seems to me that people are talking about "immigrants", but they're still meaning any combination of immigrants and refugees. The reason I bring this up is because they are two very distinct groups of people, both coming here under different pieces of legislation. Also, politically (and probably legally), it would be much easier to impose restrictions on immigrants, rather than refugees/asylum seekers.

It seems to me that this first becaame a huge issue when large amount of Africans arrived here. However, does anybody know which ethnic group is the largest in Ireland? Also, how many immigrants do we have Vs the number of asylum seekers Vs those who have already been granted asylum? I don't know the answers, but think these are important questions in htis debate.

I think like many people, I am opposed to a liberal policy on asylum, but tighter control on immigration. I have to say that when I return home to Ireland (I work in the UK) it's heartbreaking to see how racist some people have become here. Having said that, it's pretty much the same in the UK at the moment.

Kind regards

gurramok

Wicknight wrote:

Firstly that assumes that all Muslims who come here want an Islamic state. Which is nonsense.

How is it nonsense?
A great many countries with Muslim majorities have Islamic values enshrined in their constitutions with their populations abiding by it hence those that immigrate here need to integrate and not impose their values on our society.
The nearest country to the EU like this is Turkey where a huge portion of the 70m population vote for Islamic values parties.
If Turkey joins, expect a wave of immigration from them. Many will stay, get residency, become citizens, not integrate and then by numbers a scenario of a Muslim majority can occur as we have a small population.
This may sound scaremongering and daydreaming, but whats there to stop it happening in the future when Turkey joins the EU nevermind open the doors to other like minded countries?

Wicknight wrote:

Secondly you need a 2/3 majority to change the constitution, and only Irish citizens can vote in constitutional referendums. Which means, based on current population figures, you would need 8 million Muslims citizens who actually want to change the constitution to an Islamic state.

Basing current opinions of immigration on such a ridiculously unlikely situation is simply daft. It is pointless scaremongering. It also feeds the idea that Muslims are all coming here to change Ireland into an Islamic state, which leads to distrust and religious bigotry towards Muslims. How does that help intergration.

Well, a recent poll (http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1743702&issue_id=15023) highlighted a significant portion(57%) of young Muslims living here wish to see an Islamic state here, thankfully they are in a minority of their community and hopefully their views will fade out in future years.

Even if there were 8 million who were needed to vote(thought it was over 50%), whats to stop them if they have the numbers, would you abide by their values when the constitution changes?

Wicknight wrote:

They were. A number of groups have launched legal challenges in the UK and Europe over the restrictions placed on Romania and Bulgaria.

I'm talking about the EU 13 who put 7 year restrictions on immigration from teh new EU 10 in 2004. A bad economy in some of those countries doesn't wash as an excuse to implement the barriers as some of their economies were also in good shape.
They had reasons for doing so whatever they are, where was the pro-immigrant lobby screaming the racist card?

Wicknight wrote:

These are EU workers you are talking about. Most probably don't care too much about long term integration.

Why not, have they respect for their host countries?
They should integrate just like Irish did in UK/USA/Australia over the centuries.

Wicknight wrote:

None of my Irish friends living in Europe give two hoots about interegration with these countries, beyond learning to say "How much is that pint" and "Do you want to come home with me" (that is a different kind of intergration). They all plan to come back to Ireland within the next 3-5 years.

So the Irish are 'using' these countries for jobs, they should integrate into those countries for long term stays just like our own immigrants here should do.

Wicknight wrote:

No, not unless you apply to work in a job that requires a background check.

Thats scary as a big portion are working in the black economy being employed by unscrupolous employers.

Wicknight wrote:

You may notice you are not background checked when you go to Paris for the weekend, or fly to Scotland to go skiing for a fortnight.

Thats because we are coming back, we are hoildaymakers.
Different story for long term residents who want to become citizens of the host countries

oscarBravo

gurramok wrote:

Wicknight wrote:

Firstly that assumes that all Muslims who come here want an Islamic state. Which is nonsense.

How is it nonsense?

Well, to quote yourself:

gurramok wrote:

Well, a recent poll (http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1743702&issue_id=15023) highlighted a significant portion(57%) of young Muslims living here wish to see an Islamic state here...

Given that 43% of young Muslims therefore don't want to see an Islamic state here, how is it not nonsense to assume that all Muslims want an Islamic state?

Dontico

i would consider the increase of support for socialism more worrying than the increase of islamic supporters. i would vote for islamic values over crazy radical liberal views any day.
islam and christianity, two different sequels to the same boring movie.