Tourney Hand - Opinions

BigCityBanker

Saturday Night SE, 14 players remaining, 335k chips in play, Avg 24k, Blinds 1k/2k. I have 16k and im in the small blind, so I have 15k behind.

UTG + 1, UTG + 2 both limp - poor players will fold to any raise even a min raise preflop - god knows what they are limping for/with. Goes around to the button who raises to 6k - c.20k behind. Button is fairly uncomplicated and transparent - raises telegraph her hand. I imediately put her on A 6 - A 10 (if she had A + picture card the raise would have been 10k or even all in).

It comes to me and I have KdJd... There is now 13k in the middle - I push for my remainng 15k knowing that BB and two limpers will fold but I fully expect the raiser to call.

Is everyone ok with this? If not why not?

Mellor

If she has Ace rag, then you are behind, but the extra 7k maks up for this.
Is she ever going to fold to the 10K raise?
As long as you are happy with behind a slight dog then its fine. You need to make a move soon anyway.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

DocO

what about a stop and go here?

if as you said the two limpers will fold, then u will be heads up on the flop, and with your hand prediction of hers, pray for no ace??

byt doing this a low raggidy flop and u might be able to get her to fold the best hand (ace high) if u hit, a check to her should get u paid, and if she's missed ur all in of 10k will frigthen her. also worst comes to worst u aint dead with 10k.

any1 agree with this? (its all dependant that you get heads up, as your previous read of the two limpers suggests)

BigCityBanker

LuckyLloyd wrote:

However, can you ever be certain to such an extent that the limpers will fold and that her range is so narrow?? How do you know this? If her range widens to include big Aces and pairs JJ + then the move becomes very marginal.

The limpers are truly awful players Lloyd - first guy min raises if he has a hand and bets big when he has nothing - i called him with bottom pair earlier and won - he is so transparent. I told him he was like the DaVinci code - a great read!! Second limper has c.50k in chips and has limped c.9 out of the last 10 hands and folded to min raises at least 4 of those times, and folded to any bet on the flop. Its pretty obvious when he has a hand he wants to hang aroud with. The Button raiser is also very much plain vanilla - A + Broadway card = big raise, A+Rag = 3xBB raise irrespective of how many limpers or what action has gone before. Its quite possible she has a small pocket pair but I feel its unlikely cos of a bit of talk she gave when raising.

BigCityBanker

DocO wrote:

what about a stop and go here?

Not an option with her I feel. I tried to get her off a hand on the flop earlier and she called me with Q 10 (pretty cards) on a K 9 x board, hit her J on the river and declared her hand as Q high.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

DocO

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Fair enough. As such, if the limpers are definately folding then I would agree with Donal that a stop and go makes the best use of your near perfect info.

EDIT: Maybe not as per your very last post!!

Id still prefer trying to give her a chance to fold, as we know she's calling ore flop. If she completely misses flop and calls u with ace high, id b very surprised. if ace hits, and u let it go, then u jus go short stack crazy for awhile and by my understanding of the table, u are far from dead with 10k chips!

cooker3

Well assuming your read is correct then I would go along with Doc when he says a stop and go is best. If there is even 1% chance she would fold then it has got to be better if she is always calling the all in. Either way with the blinds how they are I don't mind getting it all in against A rag in this situation, need the double up anyway so worth the gamble.

DocO

with such a commanding read on the table as it seem he has, i dont think he needds to take the gamble , as outplaying these guys would be alot easier imho

BigCityBanker

DocO wrote:

with such a commanding read on the table as it seem he has, i dont think he needds to take the gamble , as outplaying these guys would be alot easier imho

There is damn all play in the tourney with stacks V blinds. If I win this hand then I can easily boss the table.

ME: KdJd 46.15%
Op: As8c 53.44%

My hand didnt improve but considering the odds I was happy to get it across the line at that point with the dead money in the middle. Next time I think i try a stop and go in this position. Give her the opportunity to fold as you say.

charlesanto

Fold pre-flop...
You're in the SB, a full lap to go before you've to post again...
You are 100% sure that you are behind...
The range you put your opponent on is ridiculous, you have to add some PPs to her range, which make you a big dog!!!

BigCityBanker

I am the same dog to any pocket pair from 10 10 downwards as I am to A 10 downwards. So from a mathematical perspective it is far from "ridiculous" that I have ommitted them from the possible range.

I could put 15 in to win 22 (37 total). Given my holding this stacks up every day of the week and not just on Mondays. My error in the hand was not doing a stop and go as Doco has pointed out.

kebabfest

I agree with CharlesAnto on this on . Playing KJ is fair enough if you are putting your chips in first , but not calling a bet when you know you are behind. You still have BB x 8 .

smurph

BigCityBanker wrote:

Saturday Night SE, 14 players remaining, 335k chips in play, Avg 24k, Blinds 1k/2k. I have 16k and im in the small blind, so I have 15k behind.

UTG + 1, UTG + 2 both limp - poor players will fold to any raise even a min raise preflop - god knows what they are limping for/with. Goes around to the button who raises to 6k - c.20k behind. Button is fairly uncomplicated and transparent - raises telegraph her hand. I imediately put her on A 6 - A 10 (if she had A + picture card the raise would have been 10k or even all in).

It comes to me and I have KdJd... There is now 13k in the middle - I push for my remainng 15k knowing that BB and two limpers will fold but I fully expect the raiser to call.

Is everyone ok with this? If not why not?

If you are sure that the remaining players will fold to a raise, I would flat call and ship in the remaining chips (10K) on a flop that does not have an Ace. You wil be big on the button next. If an ace appears check fold. You are on the button and a raise to 10K all is okay for another orbit.

Ste05

If I decide I'm playing the hand, then I'm never folding.

It's either push now to guarantee the two limpers and the BB fold.

Or call and push on ANY flop. Calling off 1/3 of your stack (with KJs) to then fold on the flop would be a pretty big mistake, whether an A flops or not. A stop and go needs to be carried through if decided upon. How can you be so sure she wouldn't raise this amount with KQ or 77 as well as a weak A??

The only problem with a Stop and Go here is that KJs isn't really a great hand to do it with, I'd usually prefer some kind of semi-decent A or some kind of PP, but if your read is correct and the other 2 donkey's are folding no matter what we do, then I push my chips in when I think I have the most fold equity. Now or on the flop.

ntlbell

This must be one of the most transparent 3 players ever assembled at a table together in any cardroom.

In one single hand we can guarntee two utg/+ folds after a limp put another player on a very very small range.


This is the easiest hand in the world to play.

MIN RAISE = two folds

she calls with her Ax

shove any non A flop.

she folds.

Absoloutey fuc*king bizzare.

Hitman Actual

ntlbell wrote:

This must be one of the most transparent 3 players ever assembled at a table together in any cardroom.

In one single hand we can guarntee two utg/+ folds after a limp put another player on a very very small range.


This is the easiest hand in the world to play.

MIN RAISE = two folds

she calls with her Ax

shove any non A flop.

she folds.

Absoloutey fuc*king bizzare.

I sometimes struggle to work out when you're taking the piss (which is quite a lot, me thinks), but min-raise and leave yourself with 4K behind i.e. 2BBs? :eek:

In a normal game, I just muck the KJ preflop here to that action. But if your reads really are that clear, then I don't think it matters much what you do, especially with 7.5BBs. It's tourney bingo time.

BigCityBanker

ntlbell wrote:

This must be one of the most transparent 3 players ever assembled at a table together in any cardroom.

In one single hand we can guarntee two utg/+ folds after a limp put another player on a very very small range.


This is the easiest hand in the world to play.

MIN RAISE = two folds

she calls with her Ax

shove any non A flop.

she folds.

Absoloutey fuc*king bizzare.

I wasnt joking when I described the table makeup - it was truly awful.

BB was Bob Battersby who had an obscene amonut of chips until an incident with AQ (see below), whilst Bob might be everybodys idea of the typical bad player he still folds in this spot unless he has woken up with a monster.

UTG looked like he was in some surreal world, a happy enuf kinda place, similar to those described by Tommy Tiernan - his eyes were glazed over like he had got through the best part of an ounce of weed before he made his way to the SE and washed it down with a few shots of Absinth. He minraised every single time he had a hand, he minraised with the Nuts on the river earlier in the game. He shot in 4XBB and 5XBB raises on the river with AIR on a couple of occasions.

UTG + 1 had won his massive stack by getting it in with KK v QQ and a few hands later by getting it in with AA v AQ, he didnt know what to do with his chips and limped EVERY POT from ANY position and folded to any action preflop and folded to any action on the flop unless he had TP or better.

Button raisers comment of "I havnt seen one of these for a while" was a pretty good tell that she had an Ace. She had pushed all in with AQ earlier and shown it, she had put in similar 3XBB raise a number of times in the first 90 minutes where we were sat side by side and shown down A rag on those occasions. Based on this I formed my assumption of A rag which I think was very fair! If she didnt have A Rag and had in fact woken up with a monster Id be marking her down as a damn good speech player.

I agree that calling and shoving a non ace flop would have been the best line - but I wouldnt be sure to get rid of BB from the hand for an additional 4k preflop. Im interested in winning it and not bothered with limping on life support into 7th place. I had a scatter of scalps to recoup €40 of my entry fee and wasnt intent on 60mins of push or fold for an additional €80.

Your ascertion of the 3 most transparent card players ever assembled is a fair one imo.

Have you found a platform that does 20c/40c NLHE games so we can play that HU for bankroll?

charlesanto

ntlbell wrote:

This must be one of the most transparent 3 players ever assembled at a table together in any cardroom.

In one single hand we can guarntee two utg/+ folds after a limp put another player on a very very small range.


This is the easiest hand in the world to play.

MIN RAISE = two folds

she calls with her Ax

shove any non A flop.

she folds.

Absoloutey fuc*king bizzare.

The standard in this tournament must be really high if these three made it to the last 14... :rolleyes:

ntlbell

lenny_leonard wrote:

I sometimes struggle to work out when you're taking the piss (which is quite a lot, me thinks), but min-raise and leave yourself with 4K behind i.e. 2BBs? :eek:

In a normal game, I just muck the KJ preflop here to that action. But if your reads really are that clear, then I don't think it matters much what you do, especially with 7.5BBs. It's tourney bingo time.

Sorry Lenny hehe!

Yes I was taking the piss

ianmc38

Not a fan of this play at all tbh.

Scouser in Dub

What I don't understand is why the pfr would raise small with her worse hands and raise large with her better hands if she is not folding her worse hands to a reraise surely she is better pushing her more marginal hands?

Not sure that you are deep enough for a stop and go you can only push 10k into a 27k pot against a villain that seems not able to lay a hand down

BigCityBanker

Scouser in Dub wrote:

What I don't understand is why the pfr would raise small with her worse hands and raise large with her better hands if she is not folding her worse hands to a reraise surely she is better pushing her more marginal hands?

I cant answer that tbh - its something plenty of inex players do tho.

And before anybody asks why if the table was so poor well how come i hadnt a massive stack? bigish stack raised into me with Ac7c and i jammed it in with AK double suited and get a call - they get RR flush to dent me.