Motorway Speed Limits

Native Tongue

The motorway speed limit argument is a tough one to call. I often wonder whether the motorway speed limit should be increased. If you're driving a powerful car, driving at 90-100mph on a motorway feels like a cruise. That's fine and it's probably perfectly safe when driving a powerful car on the motorway. But if you up the limit to 85 or 90 mph, you will have every Tom, Dick and Harry driving at 100mph, even in the likes of a Nissan Micra, which should definitely not be driven at over 80mph.

Where do the problems lie?

A. If you have a speed limit of 100km/h, people will drive at 110-120km/h. If you have a speed limit of 120km/h, people will drive at 130-150km/h. So say we upped the speed limit on the motorway from 120 to 140. What would happen? People would drive from 155-175km/h. I believe we have a perception that the safe driving speed is usually the speed limit +10%, +15% or +20%.

B. Coming off the motorway is a big problem. When the motorway goes back to a regular N route, the limit goes back to 100km/h. Everyone who drives frequently on a Motorway will now that unless you're caught behind someone, you will not slow down to 100km/h once the Motorway ends. You are used to driving faster and generally the road will still be in excellent condition for miles ahead. If we up the Motorway limit to 140km/h, it would make it far more difficult to slow to 100km/h once we come off the Motorway.

C. Today we believe the speed limit is more of a recommended speed than a limit. If we up the speed limit, people WILL drive at that speed, no matter whether or not their car is capable of doing so. This WILL cause accidents.

Do I want the speed limit on the motorway to be upped? Yes, I do. I drive a powerful car, and would like to be able to get from A-B faster legally. Do I think upping the motorway limit is a good idea? No, because of the attitude we have in this country. It would be so beneficial to me and many others, but it has the potential to cause mayhem on our motorways. What do you think?

Guy:Incognito

Native Tongue wrote:

The motorway speed limit argument is a tough one to call. I often wonder whether the motorway speed limit should be increased. If you're driving a powerful car, driving at 90-100mph on a motorway feels like a cruise. That's fine and it's probably perfectly safe when driving a powerful car on the motorway. But if you up the limit to 85 or 90 mph, you will have every Tom, Dick and Harry driving at 100mph, even in the likes of a Nissan Micra, which should definitely not be driven at over 80mph.

Just because someone can afford a powerfull car doesnt mean they know how to drive one. Theres a big issue in this country with people thinking they are better drivers than they are.

It may be an issue of lack of education, but it still exists.People in this country dont know how to use motorways.


I've been working in Greystones the last 2 weeks and in 10 days of driving up and down the M/N11 We've been almost sideswiped off th eroad twice. I dont like those odds. One was a woman who refused to slow down/speed up to make room for a van merging ( I know he could have done the same but you'd think seeing the guy running out of road and her own preservation insticnt would have made her react, but no) and then pulled halfway into the overtaking lane as we were overtaking her. The other was someone who changed lanes without checking. I've also seen numerous people moving abou tin thei lanes while on the phone. Do I think I'd like to see all this activity made worse by people doing it at up to 200kmph? not a hope.

dermot_sheehan

Native Tongue wrote:

The motorway speed limit argument is a tough one to call. I often wonder whether the motorway speed limit should be increased. If you're driving a powerful car, driving at 90-100mph on a motorway feels like a cruise. That's fine and it's probably perfectly safe when driving a powerful car on the motorway. But if you up the limit to 85 or 90 mph, you will have every Tom, Dick and Harry driving at 100mph, even in the likes of a Nissan Micra, which should definitely not be driven at over 80mph.

Explain to me how having a more expensive car increases human reaction times at high speed?? At 100mph you are doing 45 meters per second, it would take several seconds to react to a hazard and take action to avoid it after which you have travelled over 100meters, car braking capabilities or performance does not enter this equation.

The fact is speed limits are a compromise, and on motorways 110-130km/hr seems to be the worldwide consensus on what is regarded as safe having regard to the amount of visibility you have ahead and so forth.

ninty9er

I drive what could be described as the slowest car manufactured this decade (a 1.0 Corsa). It can maintain the 120kmh at its limits above that it'd bounce, however I do believe that the motorway speedlimit should be at least 180kmh if not 200kmh with speed cameras everywhere so that the people who now add the 10% can't if the limit is raised!! Of course where the road is only 2 lanes 130 is more appropriate

Saruman

Depends on the motorway. I think it should be upped on the new M4 toll road.. there is one exit at enfield and then nothing for about 20 miles until you get to Kinnegad.

Very litle traffic etc. People regularly driving at 140+
I used to drive up to that speed until i changed both vehicles recently to slower ones. However before i could have been cruising along at 130 and someone would fly past me as if i was doing 60kph! The road is capable of it and since we are paying for using the road then it should be upped...

Not on motorways like the M50 though (even when complete), too many exits and too much traffic.

The M1 until the swords exit would be another one thats safe to increase the limit on.

Fanboy

Anytime i'm on the M50, i dont get near 80KM/H, never mind 120!! Lucky if i get out of 3rd gear!! Poxy traffic.

Native Tongue

Stekelly wrote:

Just because someone can afford a powerfull car doesnt mean they know how to drive one. Theres a big issue in this country with people thinking they are better drivers than they are.

It may be an issue of lack of education, but it still exists.

Good point. I guess my argument is that driving in a straight line isn't that difficult and a more powerful car will hold the road better at higher speeds than a less powerful one.

gabhain7 wrote:

Explain to me how having a more expensive car increases human reaction times at high speed?? At 100mph you are doing 45 meters per second, it would take several seconds to react to a hazard and take action to avoid it after which you have travelled over 100meters, car braking capabilities or performance does not enter this equation.

The fact is speed limits are a compromise, and on motorways 110-130km/hr seems to be the worldwide consensus on what is regarded as safe having regard to the amount of visibility you have ahead and so forth.

I never said it increased human reaction times. Again, you make a good point. I'm just dreaming of a similar system to Germany's Autobahns, where the recommended speed is 130km/h, but there is no upper limit. Instead, laws on tailgating are strictly enforced (you must maintain a distance (in meters) of half the speed limit (in km/h) between you and the car in front of you), in other words if you're driving 120km/h, you must stay 60m behind the car in front. Don't get me wrong, I know our Motorways cannot compare to the standard of the German Autobahn, but like I said, in a perfect world...

Guy:Incognito

Native Tongue wrote:

Good point. I guess my argument is that driving in a straight line isn't that difficult and a more powerful car will hold the road better at higher speeds than a less powerful one.

While the theory is ok, when you factor in other cars, weather etc, it's not so simple. It only takes one idiot to cause carnage with lots of otherwise safe drivers.

Native Tongue wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I know our Motorways cannot compare to the standard of the German Autobahn, but like I said, in a perfect world...

tbh the M50 is a lot better than a good number of stretchs of autobahn I've driven., surface wise some of th eold autobahns need attention, which is probably why there is an increasing number of speed limits being put on stretches.

Native Tongue

ninty9er wrote:

I drive what could be described as the slowest car manufactured this decade (a 1.0 Corsa). It can maintain the 120kmh at its limits above that it'd bounce, however I do believe that the motorway speedlimit should be at least 180kmh if not 200kmh with speed cameras everywhere so that the people who now add the 10% can't if the limit is raised!! Of course where the road is only 2 lanes 130 is more appropriate

Excellent point about the 2 lanes. I suppose this is where our country is restricted greatly in the ability to increase speed limits. If we had 3 lanes on our motorways the third lane could be used for fast traffic only. Not that it would work of course because you'd always have some ****ing eejit driving at 100km/h in it.

Saruman wrote:

Depends on the motorway. I think it should be upped on the new M4 toll road.. there is one exit at enfield and then nothing for about 20 miles until you get to Kinnegad.

Very litle traffic etc. People regularly driving at 140+
I used to drive up to that speed until i changed both vehicles recently to slower ones. However before i could have been cruising along at 130 and someone would fly past me as if i was doing 60kph! The road is capable of it and since we are paying for using the road then it should be upped...

Not on motorways like the M50 though (even when complete), too many exits and too much traffic.

The M1 until the swords exit would be another one thats safe to increase the limit on.

Introducing varying limits is a good idea. Many parts of the M50 are 60km/h or 100km/h as it stands, so it makes sense that there could be variances in the better roads. Surely on a straight stretch we could up the limit, and reduce it when visibility is lessened by curves in the road? Or would this result in people speeding up for the straight stretch but neglecting to slow down once they reach the lesser limits?

Native Tongue

Stekelly wrote:

While the theory is ok, when you factor in other cars, weather etc, it's not so simple. It only takes one idiot to cause carnage with lots of otherwise safe drivers.

Indeed, you're right there. Cheers for the feedback, it's just something I've been thinking about while driving from Cork to Dublin and back lately.

maidhc

I have a bigger issue with some national roads being limited to 100km/h, in particular the N25 -> carrigtouhill and the N8 to the M8 at Fermoy.

As far as I can see the only reason we don't have an M8 from Mitchelstown to Cork is so people feel they are getting something for their toll on the Fermoy bypass.

On a good motorway class road I feel perfectly safe at 140km/h. Doing 100km/h feels like a crawl with the engine barely ticking over at 1500rpm.

Native Tongue

maidhc wrote:

I have a bigger issue with some national roads being limited to 100km/h, in particular the N25 -> carrigtouhill and the N8 to the M8 at Fermoy.

As far as I can see the only reason we don't have an M8 from Mitchelstown to Cork is so people feel they are getting something for their toll on the Fermoy bypass.

On a good motorway class road I feel perfectly safe at 140km/h. Doing 100km/h feels like a crawl with the engine barely ticking over at 1500rpm.

I completely agree with you about the N8 to M8, it is an excellent road. But theoretically I can see why they do not class it as a motorway. There are many slight curves on the road, which limit the distance of your visibility (the more road you can see ahead of you, the easier you can see potential hazards), hence the road not being classified as a motorway. I must say it is very difficult to slow from 120 to 100 on that road though! I'm not sure of the road number (N4???) but around Leitrim/Sligo somewhere there is an insanely good road, perfectly smooth and straight as an arrow. As far as I know only one side of the road has two lanes at a time, but there is a lot of space on either side for expansion. Surely this is an ideal spot for the development of a motorway? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think this is the main Sligo-Dublin road.

is_that_so

Native Tongue wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I know our Motorways cannot compare to the standard of the German Autobahn, but like I said, in a perfect world...

Every time this comes up the Autobahn is invoked. There are many stretches with no speed limits in Germany. There are also many more which do have a speed limit. As well as this when you do drive at such speeds you are not alone and there are many cars at the same speed and many cars who want to go even faster. I've been in a car at 180kph and there is always a little "what if..?" in my mind. What is also ignored when quoting the autobahns is the problem of high speed tailgating.

As regards the powerful car here are a few reminders of what can happen.

Germany

An employee of Mercedes was heading back to Stuttgart in the outside lane. There was a lot of traffic as always on the A5. A woman had pulled out to overtake and was finding it difficult to get back in. The high powered Mercedes behind her flashed and tailgated her. She accelerated and the car continued to tailgate. She eventually lost control, went across the motorway killing herself and her child. He got 18 months in prison. Link

Spain

I recall an accident in Spain in about 1990 with a very famous basketball player who was driving a high performance car . He lost control at 200kph, went across the motorway and killed three people as well as himself.

I personally see the 130 kph as a sensible compromise and would not object to that. Roads are for all road users even the ones who don't drive fast or particularly well and however good you think you are you have no idea how that person in front will respond. At best we can only guess.

Might I suggest Mondello for a spin?

Seth Brundle

I have driven in France over the last number of Summers at 200+km/h (getting good mpg might I add!).
Whilst its great being able to do this speed it requires a lot of concentration and you do in fact end up much more tired after a journey than driving at say 120km/h.

hargo

The speed limit in France on the aotoroute is 130kph and 110 in the rain!

Seth Brundle

If that is aimed towards me then I don't recall saying that it wasn't!

Captain Trips

Well, I don't think that delimited mortorways in Irleand can happen straight away, but surely we should at least have the ambition to build them, even if it is a decade - i.e., rather than building a road with too many curves to allow 120kph limits out of stupidiity, surely we should be aiming to have 3 lanes really straight and no limits. You get what you aim for, and if you are aiming for crap, then you get it.

SO, I don't see why the new N8 section only a few years old was designed without any ambition to increase safety by using motorway/autobahn design intentions, but instead was designed by with some middle-of-the-road (pun unintended) bloke without any ambition.

Surely, the ultimate road network has minimal exits, turns and has the most lanes and highest speeds possible?

Native Tongue

Captain Trips wrote:

Well, I don't think that delimited mortorways in Irleand can happen straight away, but surely we should at least have the ambition to build them, even if it is a decade - i.e., rather than building a road with too many curves to allow 120kph limits out of stupidiity, surely we should be aiming to have 3 lanes really straight and no limits. You get what you aim for, and if you are aiming for crap, then you get it.

SO, I don't see why the new N8 section only a few years old was designed without any ambition to increase safety by using motorway/autobahn design intentions, but instead was designed by with some middle-of-the-road (pun unintended) bloke without any ambition.

Surely, the ultimate road network has minimal exits, turns and has the most lanes and highest speeds possible?

Yes I agree that we should have the ambition to build them, but I believe it is highly unlikely that we will. If it were, we would have three lane motorways by now. It's not as if there was not enough room to create a third lane on our newer motorways in Ireland. I wonder if it has something to do with cost?

Yes that would be the ultimate road network, but we are far from such an ideal. Up until recently our road network was an embarassment to the country. At least we are seeing an improvement in recent times, but we still have a long long way to go!

Victor

The problem with perfectly straight roads is driver fatigue. Long, gradual, alternatiing curves, overbridges, road art, etc. provide something to draw the driver attention and keep them alert. With no landmarks, the journey is boring and speeds creep up beyond acceptable.

zuutroy

Ha! Limitless motorways in Ireland. Thats NEVER gonna happen. The Joe Duffy brigade would have several field days with that one. I think motorways with exits every 15km or so should be limited to around 140-150, with motorways like the M50 kept to 120/130 (irrelvant most of the time I know)

faceman

An increase on sections of the M1 wouldnt cause much concern.

hargo

kbannon wrote:

If that is aimed towards me then I don't recall saying that it wasn't!

I was simply pointing out that the French auto route has a speed limit. There is no comparison between the road quality there and Irish motorway and French drivers know how to drive on the motorway. To have a discussion on raising the speed limit on Irish motorways is a joke.

ninty9er

hargo wrote:

There is no comparison between the road quality there and Irish motorway and French drivers know how to drive on the motorway.

Do they now not in my experience, the French are some of the most ill mannared, short fused drivers I've ever come across

Seth Brundle

hargo wrote:

I was simply pointing out that the French auto route has a speed limit. There is no comparison between the road quality there and Irish motorway and French drivers know how to drive on the motorway. To have a discussion on raising the speed limit on Irish motorways is a joke.

My point was that if one was to drive at high speeds then you will tire more quickly. The benefits aren't as they seem.

ninty9er wrote:

Do they now not in my experience, the French are some of the most ill mannared, short fused drivers I've ever come across

I have found them to be much better drivers than the Irish and don't recall any agression from drivers over there. Drivers over here are much worse.
On the autoroute they see cars coming up from behind and will move out of the way where possible.

Native Tongue

kbannon wrote:

On the autoroute they see cars coming up from behind and will move out of the way where possible.

That's definitely something that people need to start doing on Irish roads. I'm sick of people driving in the outer lane when there is traffic behind them. Used to find the same thing in Boston, you'd be backed up in the outer lane because some clown at the top won't pull in. I remember passing northern New York state while driving to Toronto and being amazed at people pulling in for me, it was like a dream!

embraer170

I find that in most cases Irish drivers move over after a few flashes of the headlights.

Hagar

Just for the record, if you are caught in France exceeding the speed limit by 40km/h the Gendarmerie can seize your car on the spot.

Biro

They should introduce electronic speed limits as a start. Increase on empty motorways in good weather, and decrease the limit if there is heavy traffic or bad weather or both.
By and large, the driving standard in this country would not adapt well to increased speed limits, but having said that, 100mph in some cars on some motorways that exist here wouldn't be too fast in light traffic.
What powerful car do you drive Native T?

NeMiSiS

"Used to find the same thing in Boston, you'd be backed up in the outer lane because some clown at the top won't pull in. " Could be to do with the high Irish population in Boston.
TK

Native Tongue

NeMiSiS wrote:

"Used to find the same thing in Boston, you'd be backed up in the outer lane because some clown at the top won't pull in. " Could be to do with the high Irish population in Boston.
TK

Aha!

Native Tongue

Biro wrote:

What powerful car do you drive Native T?

CLK320

Biro

Native Tongue wrote:

CLK320

That'd be well at home to sitting at over 100mph all day then! Nice comfortable cruiser I'd say.
Really they'd need to start classing cars into groups and enforcing the limit according to the group of car you have, provided you've passed a special test of advanced driving techniques, but in practice that would be impossible to do and enforce. In an ideal world though...

BostonB

embraer170 wrote:

I find that in most cases Irish drivers move over after a few flashes of the headlights.

They should be watching their mirrors, you shouldn't need to flash.