The Dark Sacrement - Exorcism In Modern Ireland

dib

Has anyone read this yet?

I received it as a present over Christmas and I'm about to start into it now. Basically, it's a series of short stories, presented in a fictional manner that are based on actual cases here in Ireland. Names, locations and family details (number of children in a family etc) have been changed at the request of the people involved. It was researched and written by David M Kiely & Christina McKenna who were on Matt Cooper's "Last Word" on Today FM talking about exorcism/possession etc and this book a few weeks ago.

Just thought it would merit discussion here. Anyone who would like a loan of it when I've finished, just send me a PM.

dib

6th

Sure if you have it read by Charleville I'll take a look at it. If I see a copy of it before hand I'll pick it up and let you know, sounds like something I should have in the library.

It would make you wonder how much of this goes on in Ireland and under what circumstances. Its my opinion that a priest (of any order) is not necessery to carry out an exorcism. Thats not to say I think 'anyone' could or should undertake one.

6th

Canon Billy Lendrum and Fr. Pat Collins, these are two of the well known guys that have done exorcisms in Ireland, I wonder who'll step up to the plate after these guys are gone? I genuinely believe the Irish Church should have someone offically looking after this sort of stuff.

A bits from RTE website about the WYB programme on Canon Billy Lendrum and Fr. Pat Collins:

The programme follows two priests - Canon Billy Lendrum and Fr. Pat Collins, as they attempt an exorcism of a house which they believe is being haunted by a malevolent spirit that is 'anti-God'. This spirit is causing serious anxiety and sometimes, physical harm, to the couple that live there. The couple has found pictures turned the wrong way around, holy water frozen, sometimes even boiling. A prayer that they have used to help protect them has been seen burning before their eyes. These are just some of the many things happening in their home. They are so afraid that they don't live in the house any more.

Canon Billy Lendrum didn't really believe in the devil until he came face to face with evil in the course of his ministry. Today he is regularly called upon by his fellow clergy to help people who are experiencing strange happenings in their homes or who believe they are 'possessed' by an evil spirit. Canon Billy is a retired Church of Ireland priest who is concerned that the ministry of 'exorcism' is not being taken seriously by his fellow clergy. That's why he wrote his book "Confronting the Paranormal, A Christian Perspective". He hopes it will persuade the clergy to take up this ministry and help those afflicted by 'paranormal activity'.

Fr. Pat Collins, a Roman Catholic priest, is of the same mind. He feels strongly that "the Church is failing to help its own members by not really being expert in the one thing that they should be expert on, which is the supernatural."

According to Canon Billy and Fr. Pat, many clergy don't know how to respond when confronted with the paranormal. Many don't have the belief that they can do something constructive nor do they have sufficient training to deal effectively with these strange phenomena.

Steyr

I read it, very interesting but sometimes drawn out.

stormkeeper

I may pick up a copy from Easons when I'm in Dublin...

Stoner

sounds good, but i hate the way paranormal books change the names, takes away from it IMO. Does it go through the structure of how priests are set upo to deal with such things though as that would be intersting

Portia 27

dib wrote: »

Has anyone read this yet?

I received it as a present over Christmas and I'm about to start into it now. Basically, it's a series of short stories, presented in a fictional manner that are based on actual cases here in Ireland. Names, locations and family details (number of children in a family etc) have been changed at the request of the people involved. It was researched and written by David M Kiely & Christina McKenna who were on Matt Cooper's "Last Word" on Today FM talking about exorcism/possession etc and this book a few weeks ago.

Just thought it would merit discussion here. Anyone who would like a loan of it when I've finished, just send me a PM.

dib

I am researching this subject because I was exorcised by the Catholic cult in Ireland, for simply being too strong and independent for a female and the priest and my mother wanted to make me more compliant to the will of the patriarch.

I have had nightmares for as long as I can remember,

In my mind it is a crime and child abuse.

Yet the pope has appointed hundreds of more men in frocks to train in exorcism-even though it is considered a crime against children.

I just wanted this posted for history as it is taboo to mention it as being deemed a witch child carries a heavy stigma for life- especially when the HSE find out.

MrMojoRisin

Portia 27 wrote: »

I am researching this subject because I was exorcised by the Catholic cult in Ireland, for simply being too strong and independent for a female and the priest and my mother wanted to make me more compliant to the will of the patriarch.

I have had nightmares for as long as I can remember,

In my mind it is a crime and child abuse.

Yet the pope has appointed hundreds of more men in frocks to train in exorcism-even though it is considered a crime against children.

Jesus (pardon the pun), that sounds extreme. It sounds like it was a noxious combination of your mother and some narrow-minded, dogmatic Catholic clerics that led to your predicament. It doesn't sound a million miles away from people being institutionalised against their will as recently as the 1980s for apparently being 'insane' or 'psychotic'.

There was also a case concerning a woman named Bridget Cleary in Co. Tipperary (I think), who was burned to death in the 1920s by her own family for apparently being a 'witch'. Startling stuff. The older generations were/are very misguided and readily believed in superstitions. Some families even believed in fairy 'changelings' - that, say, their son was taken away by the fairies due to him violating fairy laws, or for simply being gorgeous and irresistible to the fairies :pac:, and then being replaced by a feckin' changeling/doppleganger. :rolleyes: I remember reading that one mother's reasoning for this belief was that her son had a strange look in his eyes and that his whole personality had changed. Such bullsh*t. :rolleyes: Fairies, me hole. Ditto for witches, demonic possession, and all the rest.

Personally, I reckon demonic possession can be explained in physiological and neurological terms. But I do believe in various phenomena, like spontaneous combustion of objects and unexplained movement of objects, etc. It might have something to do with unbridled kinetic energy...

Portia 27 wrote: »

I just wanted this posted for history as it is taboo to mention it as being deemed a witch child carries a heavy stigma for life- especially when the HSE find out.

Well, fair play to you for being so open about it. If I had had my mam sending over priests to 'exorcise' me when I was a young fella, I'd be up in arms about it too. The whole Catholic Church abuse scandal has had some positive, cathartic effects; people are feeling more free to out shameful practices carried out by the church, and what a shower of bollixes some of them were/are.

Is a 'witch child' a proper label, like? The priests actually seriously use/used that term? You shouldn't feel any stigma now because most people have the sense to understand that 'witch child' stuff is a load of nonsense. If someone walked up to me and said that so-and-so was a witch child, first I'd ask them what that implied, and then I'd laugh and wouldn't take it seriously. I'd prefer to make up my own mind about what exactly someone is by speaking to, and interacting with them, myself. I do that instinctively regardless.

You have feck all to be ashamed about. The only unfortunate thing about you is that your mother seemed deluded and that those priests you had the misfortune to encounter were idiots. Your life circumstances don't change who you are fundamentally - sh*t happens but you're still separate from that. If you come across people who have a problem with you because you were exorcised and branded a 'witch child' in the past, then they aren't worth bothering with because they're thick.

Portia 27

MrMojoRisin wrote: »

Jesus (pardon the pun), that sounds extreme. It sounds like it was a noxious combination of your mother and some narrow-minded, dogmatic Catholic clerics that led to your predicament. It doesn't sound a million miles away from people being institutionalised against their will as recently as the 1980s for apparently being 'insane' or 'psychotic'.

There was also a case concerning a woman named Bridget Cleary in Co. Tipperary (I think), who was burned to death in the 1920s by her own family for apparently being a 'witch'. Startling stuff. The older generations were/are very misguided and readily believed in superstitions. Some families even believed in fairy 'changelings' - that, say, their son was taken away by the fairies due to him violating fairy laws, or for simply being gorgeous and irresistible to the fairies :pac:, and then being replaced by a feckin' changeling/doppleganger. :rolleyes: I remember reading that one mother's reasoning for this belief was that her son had a strange look in his eyes and that his whole personality had changed. Such bullsh*t. :rolleyes: Fairies, me hole. Ditto for witches, demonic possession, and all the rest.

Personally, I reckon demonic possession can be explained in physiological and neurological terms. But I do believe in various phenomena, like spontaneous combustion of objects and unexplained movement of objects, etc. It might have something to do with unbridled kinetic energy...




Well, fair play to you for being so open about it. If I had had my mam sending over priests to 'exorcise' me when I was a young fella, I'd be up in arms about it too. The whole Catholic Church abuse scandal has had some positive, cathartic effects; people are feeling more free to out shameful practices carried out by the church, and what a shower of bollixes some of them were/are.

Is a 'witch child' a proper label, like? The priests actually seriously use/used that term? You shouldn't feel any stigma now because most people have the sense to understand that 'witch child' stuff is a load of nonsense. If someone walked up to me and said that so-and-so was a witch child, first I'd ask them what that implied, and then I'd laugh and wouldn't take it seriously. I'd prefer to make up my own mind about what exactly someone is by speaking to, and interacting with them, myself. I do that instinctively regardless.

You have feck all to be ashamed about. The only unfortunate thing about you is that your mother seemed deluded and that those priests you had the misfortune to encounter were idiots. Your life circumstances don't change who you are fundamentally - sh*t happens but you're still separate from that. If you come across people who have a problem with you because you were exorcised and branded a 'witch child' in the past, then they aren't worth bothering with because they're thick.

Thank you.

I wanted this taboo broken and all truth out in the open for all to witness, in the hope that no other child or adult suffers because of these old superstitions.

I was unsure of the reaction, as I left ireland in 1996 and left all my blood family behind.

I kept quiet because in 1990, when my daughter was born, I had a visit from the men in dresses too calling her a witch at only 3 weeks.

Ah but what most people may not know is that the Witch label followed me and was used by the HSE as well in 1995.

They did not want me to leave an abusive marriage because of the Catholic teaching that women must obey and suffer as taught by some saint Augustine.

Once again I asked and got told that I was too strong for a woman in Catholic ireland, that my children are too intelligent and need locking up and given ELECTRIC SHOCK THERAPY.

Even the children of the "Witch" are made to suffer - FOR ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

I was gagged until 2008 from speaking about this, but I promised to make it public one day and here it is.

I was totally shocked to be honest and thought I was back in the dark ages.

Portia 27

MrMojoRisin wrote: »

Jesus (pardon the pun), that sounds extreme. It sounds like it was a noxious combination of your mother and some narrow-minded, dogmatic Catholic clerics that led to your predicament. It doesn't sound a million miles away from people being institutionalised against their will as recently as the 1980s for apparently being 'insane' or 'psychotic'.

There was also a case concerning a woman named Bridget Cleary in Co. Tipperary (I think), who was burned to death in the 1920s by her own family for apparently being a 'witch'. Startling stuff. The older generations were/are very misguided and readily believed in superstitions. Some families even believed in fairy 'changelings' - that, say, their son was taken away by the fairies due to him violating fairy laws, or for simply being gorgeous and irresistible to the fairies :pac:, and then being replaced by a feckin' changeling/doppleganger. :rolleyes: I remember reading that one mother's reasoning for this belief was that her son had a strange look in his eyes and that his whole personality had changed. Such bullsh*t. :rolleyes: Fairies, me hole. Ditto for witches, demonic possession, and all the rest.

Personally, I reckon demonic possession can be explained in physiological and neurological terms. But I do believe in various phenomena, like spontaneous combustion of objects and unexplained movement of objects, etc. It might have something to do with unbridled kinetic energy...




Well, fair play to you for being so open about it. If I had had my mam sending over priests to 'exorcise' me when I was a young fella, I'd be up in arms about it too. The whole Catholic Church abuse scandal has had some positive, cathartic effects; people are feeling more free to out shameful practices carried out by the church, and what a shower of bollixes some of them were/are.

Is a 'witch child' a proper label, like? The priests actually seriously use/used that term? You shouldn't feel any stigma now because most people have the sense to understand that 'witch child' stuff is a load of nonsense. If someone walked up to me and said that so-and-so was a witch child, first I'd ask them what that implied, and then I'd laugh and wouldn't take it seriously. I'd prefer to make up my own mind about what exactly someone is by speaking to, and interacting with them, myself. I do that instinctively regardless.

You have feck all to be ashamed about. The only unfortunate thing about you is that your mother seemed deluded and that those priests you had the misfortune to encounter were idiots. Your life circumstances don't change who you are fundamentally - sh*t happens but you're still separate from that. If you come across people who have a problem with you because you were exorcised and branded a 'witch child' in the past, then they aren't worth bothering with because they're thick.

Yes, a witch child is what it is called.

It is all documented in child abuse here in the UK as this belief is back- brought back from USA and all this satanic ritual abuse.

You do not need a broomstick. LOL for the HSE to go to court and label you a witch- their social workers go to conferences and come back believing in it too.Growing organic crops also can get you labelled..LOL

Ijust had to research to find out as like you, I thought this is mad. How can people in the HSE believe this in this day and age and go before a judge and he believe this cr*p as well.

Of course if it was today i would ask the judge, if I can park my broomstick in his chambers?? really take the piss out of it, but at the time it was not funny as I had no knowledge of the old piseogs.

My entire teaching career was destroyed by their ignorance.

maccored

i dunno - i read it a while back and it's all stories of sleep paralysis, child abuse, demons and the devil and I cant help get the impression that its a big advert for the christian faith. believe in god and these things wont happen. I wasnt very impressed with it to be honest.

Portia 27

maccored wrote: »

i dunno - i read it a while back and it's all stories of sleep paralysis, child abuse, demons and the devil and I cant help get the impression that its a big advert for the christian faith. believe in god and these things wont happen. I wasnt very impressed with it to be honest.

Exactly, Believe in THEIR GOD and you are left alone.

Otherwise it is the Witch Trials all over again, with all the murder and torture which is left out of history.

Like Hypathia- and how she was murdered by the Christians in a CHURCH- ripping her flesh off with oyster shells.

We are too shocked as a society to look at our true history and address it.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/murderers.htm

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For those who dared to be different:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Incarceration, starvation

Psychological torment and terror

Laceration,
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]mutilation,
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]strangulation,
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]suffocation[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Crushing,
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]choking,
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]burning,
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]garrotting[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Slow and agonizing death[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Pope's Pears:[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
The vaginal pear was used on woman who had sex with the Devil or his familiars. The rectal pear was used on passive male homosexuals and the oral pear was used on heretical preachers or lay persons found guilty of unorthodox practices. Inserted into the mouth, anus or vagina of the victim, the pear was expanded by use of the screw until the insides are ripped, stretched and mutilated, almost always causing death. The pointed ends of the 'leaves' were good for ripping the throat, intestines or cervix open. [/FONT]

i wonder who the real barbarians were?

Riamfada

The catholic church do get some pretty serious flack when you consider that all "badness" in the world isnt restricted to them.

Portia your story is pretty significant, why havnt I heard about it on the news?

Portia 27

Grimes wrote: »

The catholic church do get some pretty serious flack when you consider that all "badness" in the world isnt restricted to them.

Portia your story is pretty significant, why havnt I heard about it on the news?

Thank you.

The entire patriarcial system is at fault.

http://anarchistfeminist.blogspot.com/2010/01/what-is-patriarchy.html

I only found the courage to speak out recently.

http://www.saff.ukhq.co.uk/shieldfl.htm

loldog

Anyone else know anyone who had an exorcism done on them?

.

Portia 27

loldog wrote: »

Anyone else know anyone who had an exorcism done on them?

.

Yes, there are others.

If you phone up adult survivors of child abuse, they might give you the numbers.


http://www.faoiseamh.com/

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ph: 1800 331234 (from ROI)
Ph: 0800 973272 (from Northern Ireland and the UK)
Email: info@faoiseamh.com

P.O. Box 5654,
Dundrum,
Dublin 14.
[/FONT]


They advised me to keep quiet about it, as most people do, because of the stigma involved.

thebullkf

forgive my ignorance,but how does sexual abuse bya priest/nun amount to an exorcism???

I don't go to church-but i have seen the good that the church/religous orders have done.

i have also read about the heinous atrocities perpetrated in the name of "god"...


sad truth is that power corrupts.

absolute power,- corrupts , absolutely..etc.

the power priests used to wield-same as guards.(though not as much)

christ the bishop used to throw the ball in on all-ireland day....

Portia 27

thebullkf wrote: »

forgive my ignorance,but how does sexual abuse bya priest/nun amount to an exorcism???

I don't go to church-but i have seen the good that the church/religous orders have done.

i have also read about the heinous atrocities perpetrated in the name of "god"...


sad truth is that power corrupts.

absolute power,- corrupts , absolutely..etc.

the power priests used to wield-same as guards.(though not as much)

christ the bishop used to throw the ball in on all-ireland day....

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Faoiseamh is an organisation which provides telephone counselling and a counselling and psychotherapy referral service for people who have been
sexually,

physically,

or emotionally

abused by priests or religious. [/FONT]

Exorcism is child abuse in UK and deemed to be - psychological abuse, emotional abuse and physical abuse of the child and child is removed into care.

In Ireland the church controls the HSE, the courts etc, so it was all kept hidden until now.

thebullkf

fair point.

i always associate child abuse with sexual abuse for some reason.

the same way i cringe when i hear "... and the victim was violently raped.."

Rape is violence FFS.....

no matter if they're whispering and wearing gloves:mad::mad::mad::mad:.


anyway's....



thats some story/

Portia 27

thebullkf wrote: »

fair point.

i always associate child abuse with sexual abuse for some reason.

the same way i cringe when i hear "... and the victim was violently raped.."

Rape is violence FFS.....

no matter if they're whispering and wearing gloves:mad::mad::mad::mad:.


anyway's....



thats some story/

That is what the media leads you to believe, and is understandable.

Yes, Rape is abuse on all levels of the human being- but most people just think it is only the physical body, when in fact the body retains the memory of the rape/abuse for ever.

I know what you mean- perhaps it might help to know that in the ancient sacred texts rape of women and children was not against the law of god.

Women and children are mere possessions to be used, sold etc like cattle.

We cannot understand until we go back in history.

http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/Biographies/Hypatia.html

Hypathia was the first woman to be demonised by the church and murdered in a chrstian church for refusing to kiss the cross.?

hit_killer

Keep away from ouija boards.

crossmolinalad

Why????

hit_killer

Most, if not all of the time, contact made with spirits of perhaps loved ones through ouija have turned out to be malevolent and sinister enitities that can cause serious harm to you and people close to you.

This is a very real and serious part of the occult you don't mess with.

raveni

Reading that book has definitely made me stay the hell away from ouija boards tbh some freaky stories in it, whether all true or not, ouija boards aren't worth the bother imo.

thebadmonkey

I think what happened you Portia is despicable and shocking and I hope that those who perpetrated it rot in the worst hell of their belief.

I have precious little time for the Catholic Church (too many of those it are corrupt and immoral). Historically you're right, some of the acts committed against women were shocking in the extreme (although it must be recognised it was not just the Catholic Church, Puritan Protestents were every bit as extreme (see the Salem Witch Trials etc) however I think it needs to be recognised it wasn't just women who suffered persecution. The Cathars, Gnostics, Muslims, also suffered terribly as did right thinking scientists like Galileo, Copernicus etc

I think however to dismiss exorcism blindly as without meaning or basis is wrong. Historically there is too much evidence (some of it actually provided in the book in the OP) which suggests possession is a dark and terrifying reality for a very very few.

I'm not talking about those who go on TV in the States and say theyre possessed by unclen spirits and get 'healed' by some TV evanglelist for the cheap price of 200 USD, or indeed some poor unfortunate albino boy or girl stuck out in the middle of Africa who is seen as a witch and burned/maimed/tortured (as currently is the case in some parts). I'm not talking either about serial killers who use it as an excuse, or those who are simply mentally challenged ...but there are cases which defy medical and rational belief.

The modern church is actually somewhat dismissive of exorcism. Many in the church see it as a remnant of a bygone era - therefore the guidelines now as it stands, in the Catholic Church are quite strict. Generally speaking, if exorcising a person (and remember a building can also be exorcised) there must be evidence of inhuman strength, speaking in tongues, knowledge of events/occurences in eyewitnesses past which could not normally have been known, the ability to impact the surrounding room in an unatural way (temperature, move objects without touching them) etc etc

Luckily the pendulum has moved from the period in time when possession explained eveything from mental illness through to knowledge of herbs and being unfortunate to be born with a third nipple. Modern science had that affect.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, the pendulum swung too far. Now events which have no rational or scientic explanation have increasingly unrealistic reasons assigned to them by sceptics. It makes us feel safer, more at ease with the world. The fact there is a dark and terrible side is too much for us! Havent we moved into the light?!

Yet how can modern science explain how for example 14 year boy demonstrates extraordinary strength, began speaking in an obscure middle eastern dialect, can cause the bed to shake violent and levitate and has the words HELL and SPITE raise from his chest as he rages at all those around him? Sound like the film the Exorcist in a way? The frightening thing about that film is that by and large it is based on the diary and recollections of a Jesuits and an a real life case from the 1940s.

Anyway! I'm rambling! Get the book, its worth a read!

faceman

thebadmonkey wrote: »

The modern church is actually somewhat dismissive of exorcism. Many in the church see it as a remnant of a bygone era - therefore the guidelines now as it stands, in the Catholic Church are quite strict. Generally speaking, if exorcising a person (and remember a building can also be exorcised) there must be evidence of inhuman strength, speaking in tongues, knowledge of events/occurences in eyewitnesses past which could not normally have been known, the ability to impact the surrounding room in an unatural way (temperature, move objects without touching them) etc etc

Luckily the pendulum has moved from the period in time when possession explained eveything from mental illness through to knowledge of herbs and being unfortunate to be born with a third nipple. Modern science had that affect.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, the pendulum swung too far. Now events which have no rational or scientic explanation have increasingly unrealistic reasons assigned to them by sceptics. It makes us feel safer, more at ease with the world. The fact there is a dark and terrible side is too much for us! Havent we moved into the light?!

I would somewhat disagree. The catholic church was like that until half way through the decade when they become more open about their school of exorcisms and the desire to train a priest for each dioscese. However there are many in the chuch who frown upon the practice and dont give any creedence to the notion of possession or the devil as an entity.

It would however appear that other forms of Christianity dont take exorcism as seriously as Catholicism.

Modern practice within catholicism to sanction an official exorcism requires consultation from the medical profession. This is not to confirm that the individual is uncurable by medicine or strucken with a mysterious illness. It is actually to confirm that the rite of exorcism will do no additional harm to the individual. Afterall it is a very suggestive ritual.

The church takes a very cautious approach with all things miraclous/preternatual/supernatural. Many visits of our Lady for example arent officially recognised by the church unless they can discount (and this is no joke!) that the apparition wasnt actually a demon or the devil himself

To put it in context. There have been approximately 20 visits of Our Lady to Lourdes over the years. There have also been an equal number of demonic manifestations too. I have read that from a number of sources.

It would seem that holy ground is not necessarily a safe haven from evil.

thebadmonkey

faceman wrote: »

I would somewhat disagree. The catholic church was like that until half way through the decade when they become more open about their school of exorcisms and the desire to train a priest for each dioscese. However there are many in the chuch who frown upon the practice and dont give any creedence to the notion of possession or the devil as an entity. .

Agree that there are many in the Church who give it little credence - I don't particularly agree that the Church has become more open regarding exorcism. J-P II and Benedict have been broadly supportive of allocating an exorcist per dicocese (as recommended centuries ago) but this has been largely ignored. The number of exorcists in Ireland for example is extremely low (although technically speaking per canon law any priest can perform The Roman Ritual they do advise that in serious cases only trained authorised exorcists carry out the service. It also doesnt help that most modern priests do not have a sufficient grasp of Latin to even recite the necessary prayers - this has become such a worry that the Church moved to allow the Roman Ritual to be conducted in the local langauge - a move which angered the Vatican's chief exorcist who claimed it meant priests/exorcists were now wielding a 'blunt sword')

It would however appear that other forms of Christianity dont take exorcism as seriously as Catholicism .

Afraid I'd disagree here as well. If you count Born Again Christians etc Catholicism lags behind. Indeed even in the Dark Sacrement the majority of exorcisms mentioned are carried out by other Christian denominations (who may refer to them as 'blessings' 'deliverance' or 'cleansing' as opposed to the term exorcism with all the conotations that word has for many

Modern practice within catholicism to sanction an official exorcism requires consultation from the medical profession. This is not to confirm that the individual is uncurable by medicine or strucken with a mysterious illness. It is actually to confirm that the rite of exorcism will do no additional harm to the individual. Afterall it is a very suggestive ritual.

The church takes a very cautious approach with all things miraclous/preternatual/supernatural. Many visits of our Lady for example arent officially recognised by the church unless they can discount (and this is no joke!) that the apparition wasnt actually a demon or the devil himself

To put it in context. There have been approximately 20 visits of Our Lady to Lourdes over the years. There have also been an equal number of demonic manifestations too. I have read that from a number of sources.

It would seem that holy ground is not necessarily a safe haven from evil.

Agree with all the above. Indeed in 1908 the Church noted that about exorcism that "Superstition ought not to be confounded with religion, however much their history may be interwoven" and warned that priests needed to be careful not to misdiagnose mental illness as possession. (If only many of the clergy in cases such as Portia had understood fully what that meant)

From what a Polish priest told me recently that despite the spread of secularism throughout Europe, the requirement for exorcisms has grown in the past twenty years. Even as people move away from blind faith, or the church (and well they might from listening to some of the sanctimonious drivel) the lack of qualified exorcists has become a concern.

I guess the quote 'The greatest trick the Devil pulled was to convince us all that he doesn't exist' (paraphrased) is apt

faceman

thebadmonkey wrote: »

Afraid I'd disagree here as well. If you count Born Again Christians etc Catholicism lags behind.
Indeed even in the Dark Sacrement the majority of exorcisms mentioned are carried out by other Christian denominations (who may refer to them as 'blessings' 'deliverance' or 'cleansing' as opposed to the term exorcism with all the conotations that word has for many

From what I recall, there isnt one true exorcism of a person in The Dark Sacrement. While demonic forces are at work in each story, the blessings or in some stories, repeated blessings of locations and people appear to work.

I strongly recommend reading The Rite for a more detailed look at actual exorcisms of an individuals. The author is very careful to not to talk about anything he cant substantiate. Its a very unbiased book.

denballs

just wanted to add an interesting theory that may scientifically prove that possession exists........though i really dont believe it myself it is scientifically possible.

ill try keep it short

you see..consciousness....our thoughts and memories are all contained within our brains as a type of energy.....there has been study into the existence of a soul and it is believed that when we die our energy does not.....as it is impossible to destroy energy....it can only be converted into a different type of energy.....it is believed that our consciousness leaves our body in some form of energy.....perhaps even visible at times....hence the whole ghost/orb thing......nobody has a clue where the energy goes ....it may be recycled it may go to heaven or whatever after life you believe in....but it may be possible that this energy could accidentally inhabite a new living body....leading to a possession

Tucking Fypo

Portia, your story is so unbelievable that I really can't believe it. Surely if this did happen, it would be all over the news and you wouldn't have been the only one. Who is stopping you from speaking out?

Cynical Apathy

Portia 27 wrote: »

I am researching this subject because I was exorcised by the Catholic cult in Ireland, for simply being too strong and independent for a female and the priest and my mother wanted to make me more compliant to the will of the patriarch.

I have had nightmares for as long as I can remember,

In my mind it is a crime and child abuse.

Yet the pope has appointed hundreds of more men in frocks to train in exorcism-even though it is considered a crime against children.

I just wanted this posted for history as it is taboo to mention it as being deemed a witch child carries a heavy stigma for life- especially when the HSE find out.

I couldn't agree more, I can imagine the horror. Have you considered bringing some sort of charges against them? If money was the case, maybe some Atheist or non-religious group would back you. There are definitely idiotic parents out there who may have a sick child, but instead of getting proper medical care, they will get the Church involved who are now looking to prey on peoples fears because they lost all credibility with the revelations of the thousands of children raped in their care.

GodlessM

Oh wow...

Portia 27

Cynical Apathy wrote: »

I couldn't agree more, I can imagine the horror. Have you considered bringing some sort of charges against them? If money was the case, maybe some Atheist or non-religious group would back you. There are definitely idiotic parents out there who may have a sick child, but instead of getting proper medical care, they will get the Church involved who are now looking to prey on peoples fears because they lost all credibility with the revelations of the thousands of children raped in their care.

I have thought about it.

The supposed support groups told me that exorcism is taboo and people would make my life worse if I spoke out.I wonder why?????????????

Portia 27

Tucking Fypo wrote: »

Portia, your story is so unbelievable that I really can't believe it. Surely if this did happen, it would be all over the news and you wouldn't have been the only one. Who is stopping you from speaking out?

I appreciate your OPINION.

I never ask anyone to believe it as it is my experience.

Exorcism was taboo and still is according to the support group.

Mmmmmm, I am speaking out HERE.

Portia 27

Cynical Apathy wrote: »

I couldn't agree more, I can imagine the horror. Have you considered bringing some sort of charges against them? If money was the case, maybe some Atheist or non-religious group would back you. There are definitely idiotic parents out there who may have a sick child, but instead of getting proper medical care, they will get the Church involved who are now looking to prey on peoples fears because they lost all credibility with the revelations of the thousands of children raped in their care.

http://www.saff.ukhq.co.uk/


http://www.saff.ukhq.co.uk/witchild.htm

Portia 27

GodlessM wrote: »

Oh wow...

http://www.saff.ukhq.co.uk/dirvine.htm

In his Preface to From Witchcraft to Christ Arthur Neil claims that he and his evangelical chums spent seven months exorcising and indoctrinating Doreen for Jesus. I know a few psychiatrist who would consider that a form of abuse in itself. According to Neil one Demon called, perhaps appropriately, Dementia, vowed he would destroy Doreen's brain before he would 'come-out'. (I will resist the temptation to say 'if he could find it' - her book is replete with strange statements positied as fact which most folk would find highly irrational )

Cynical Apathy

Who are the bloody support groups? It sounds like they have an agenda. You probably shouldn't seek retribution but you should seek justice by doing all in your power to highlight this vile practice and show it for what it is... abuse.

Portia 27

Cynical Apathy wrote: »

Who are the bloody support groups? It sounds like they have an agenda. You probably shouldn't seek retribution but you should seek justice by doing all in your power to highlight this vile practice and show it for what it is... abuse.

I contacted FAOISEAMH.

Yes, their agenda was to keep it hidden as the lady tried to put fear in me re taboo of what people might say if I spoke out on the matter.

Yes, I have done a TV programme on the matter - not allowed on RTE of course.

It is not about money.No money could ever repair the damage done and the nightmares.

However a famous lawyer has said to me "There is no justice, the only thing the men of god worship is money, so by taking itfrom them, that is the only justice you will ever see in your lifetime".

Fuinseog

dib wrote: »

Has anyone read this yet?

I received it as a present over Christmas and I'm about to start into it now. Basically, it's a series of short stories, presented in a fictional manner that are based on actual cases here in Ireland. Names, locations and family details (number of children in a family etc) have been changed at the request of the people involved. It was researched and written by David M Kiely & Christina McKenna who were on Matt Cooper's "Last Word" on Today FM talking about exorcism/possession etc and this book a few weeks ago.

Just thought it would merit discussion here. Anyone who would like a loan of it when I've finished, just send me a PM.

dib

it is a good book and they have a sequel on ghosts. title eludes me. worth reading as well.

Portia 27

Fuinseog wrote: »

it is a good book and they have a sequel on ghosts. title eludes me. worth reading as well.

There must be a record kept because the men in dresses came for my daughter too age 3 weeks-

Fuinseog

Portia 27 wrote: »

There must be a record kept because the men in dresses came for my daughter too age 3 weeks-

?????

6th

Fuinseog wrote: »

it is a good book and they have a sequel on ghosts. title eludes me. worth reading as well.

Not a sequel as such but by one of the authors Christina McKenna it's called Irelands Haunted Women. Great book, 2 accounts in particular.

dolphin city

Portia 27 wrote: »

Thank you.

I wanted this taboo broken and all truth out in the open for all to witness, in the hope that no other child or adult suffers because of these old superstitions.

I was unsure of the reaction, as I left ireland in 1996 and left all my blood family behind.

I kept quiet because in 1990, when my daughter was born, I had a visit from the men in dresses too calling her a witch at only 3 weeks.

Ah but what most people may not know is that the Witch label followed me and was used by the HSE as well in 1995.

They did not want me to leave an abusive marriage because of the Catholic teaching that women must obey and suffer as taught by some saint Augustine.

Once again I asked and got told that I was too strong for a woman in Catholic ireland, that my children are too intelligent and need locking up and given ELECTRIC SHOCK THERAPY.

Even the children of the "Witch" are made to suffer - FOR ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

I was gagged until 2008 from speaking about this, but I promised to make it public one day and here it is.

I was totally shocked to be honest and thought I was back in the dark ages.

this all happened in the 1990's. I'll be honest wtih you - I don't believe you at all.

whats the problem with telling us what programme you did and for what channel.

what year did the "men in dresses" come for your baby?

Fuinseog

Portia 27 wrote: »

I contacted FAOISEAMH.

Yes, their agenda was to keep it hidden as the lady tried to put fear in me re taboo of what people might say if I spoke out on the matter.

Yes, I have done a TV programme on the matter - not allowed on RTE of course.

It is not about money.No money could ever repair the damage done and the nightmares.

However a famous lawyer has said to me "There is no justice, the only thing the men of god worship is money, so by taking itfrom them, that is the only justice you will ever see in your lifetime".

you seem to have a chip on your shoulder. if you had a hatred for Jews as strong as your hatred for Catholics you would not be allowed to air your views here.

Fuinseog

Portia 27 wrote: »

I am researching this subject because I was exorcised by the Catholic cult in Ireland, for simply being too strong and independent for a female and the priest and my mother wanted to make me more compliant to the will of the patriarch.

I have had nightmares for as long as I can remember,

In my mind it is a crime and child abuse.

Yet the pope has appointed hundreds of more men in frocks to train in exorcism-even though it is considered a crime against children.

I just wanted this posted for history as it is taboo to mention it as being deemed a witch child carries a heavy stigma for life- especially when the HSE find out.

oh God, another anti catholic sob story about how harsh a country this place was in the 1990s

Fuinseog

Portia 27 wrote: »

Thank you.

I wanted this taboo broken and all truth out in the open for all to witness, in the hope that no other child or adult suffers because of these old superstitions.

I was unsure of the reaction, as I left ireland in 1996 and left all my blood family behind.

I kept quiet because in 1990, when my daughter was born, I had a visit from the men in dresses too calling her a witch at only 3 weeks.

Ah but what most people may not know is that the Witch label followed me and was used by the HSE as well in 1995.

They did not want me to leave an abusive marriage because of the Catholic teaching that women must obey and suffer as taught by some saint Augustine.

Once again I asked and got told that I was too strong for a woman in Catholic ireland, that my children are too intelligent and need locking up and given ELECTRIC SHOCK THERAPY.

Even the children of the "Witch" are made to suffer - FOR ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

I was gagged until 2008 from speaking about this, but I promised to make it public one day and here it is.

I was totally shocked to be honest and thought I was back in the dark ages.

maybe you should talk to Joe. was the cruel Romantic Catholic dictatorship of Eire the only place to use electric shock treatment?

you will be pleased to know that more an d more exorcists are being trained.


AMDG

thebullkf

Fuinseog wrote: »

maybe you should talk to Joe. was the cruel Romantic Catholic dictatorship of Eire the only place to use electric shock treatment?

you will be pleased to know that more an d more exorcists are being trained.


AMDG

you seem to be trying to antagonise the OP.

your point scoring does you no favours.

Fuinseog

thebullkf wrote: »

you seem to be trying to antagonise the OP.

your point scoring does you no favours.

point scoring?

the OP or at least Portia 27 seems to be trying to antagonise Catholics

thebullkf

Fuinseog wrote: »

point scoring?

the OP or at least Portia 27 seems to be trying to antagonise Catholics

amdg....



so you don't deny you're being antagonistic?

Fuinseog

thebullkf wrote: »

amdg....



so you don't deny you're being antagonistic?

Portia 27 regards Catholics as supertitous bumpkins and makes bigotry remarks, referring to priests as 'men in dresses'. She is bound to run into someone who counters her opinion.
I am in favour of exorcism, which is in much demand these days. if that is being antagonistic then too bad.

thebullkf

Fuinseog wrote: »

Portia 27 regards Catholics as supertitous bumpkins and makes bigotry remarks, referring to priests as 'men in dresses'. She is bound to run into someone who counters her opinion.
I am in favour of exorcism, which is in much demand these days. if that is being antagonistic then too bad.

i don't recall her saying bumpkins

Bigotry-please:rolleyes: .

obviously portia has a strong dislike for the CC, if her story is true, who can blame her?

your reference to amdg, in light of abuse carried out in the name of christ by those "men" {note i disregard dresses; i have "men" in comma's because these abusers were animals. } is disgusting and intended to offend Portia directly.
For you to lamely play "he said,she said" is pathetic tbh.
the joe duffy reference is patonising also.

I reported your post and yet nothing mentioned on thread by any mods.


as far as dresses go, the alb (?) looks like a large gown/robe dress, i don't see the problem here is it you that has the problem i wonder?


finally why do you think exorcisms are in much demand?