PC World and DTT

Rippy

I just popped into the big new PC World store at Mahon Point in Cork.
I was after a USB to serial adaptor so I could download software to satellite receivers from my laptop. I was assured by a very confident young fella that such a thing does not exist ..err um..
Anyway, as I was there I had a nose around and was surprised to see a large range of DTT and tuner cards and USB devices. Now one or two of the DVB-T PCI cards also had analogue tuners, but the majority did not. None
of the USB devices had analogue tuners, as far as I could see. I had a look at the LCD screens. Some had integrated DVB-T tuners and were being promoted as digital TVs. The showcard said “Over 25 digital channels available”.
There is of course not a hope of getting DTT in Cork or most of the Republic for the
foreseeable future
I found the store manager and pointed put to him that he was selling products that did not work in the area where they were being sold. He told me he was aware of this, but there was nothing he could do about it. He was sent the products and had to put them out. He had already contacted head office and they said to sell them. I then asked if it would be a good idea to put a sign up saying “ At the moment there are no Digital Terrestrial broadcasts in this area and this product will not work”. He did not think he would be allowed to do this.
I have had one or two service calls in the past to check out aerials where it has turned out they are trying to use a digital tuner, I guess I should be ready for a good few more!

byte

Yeah, a lot of newer TV's seem to a DTT tuner built in as standard. All the Sony Bravia's for instance have "Freeview" inbuilt. That said, on last years Bravia models, if you chose your location as Ireland, the DTT tuner was disabled. If you chose UK, VHF tuning was disabled! Not disabled though on current models.

byrnefm

Rippy wrote:

Some had integrated DVB-T tuners and were being promoted as digital TVs. The showcard said “Over 25 digital channels available”.
There is of course not a hope of getting DTT in Cork or most of the Republic for the foreseeable future

I'm a bit surprised by their attitude - I would have thought that PC World could get into trouble for this, for false advertisement?

Rippy

byrnefm wrote:

I'm a bit surprised by their attitude - I would have thought that PC World could get into trouble for this, for false advertisement?

I'm surprised too. Anyone care to check other PC World branches? Also Currys(Same parent company - DSG). I will e-mail their head office to see what they have to say.

snaps

I was talking to the store manager in PC world Galway about why they are selling all these dvb-T products and DAB Radio products. He was telling me the same as the manager in Cork said, They have to sell the same products as all the UK based PC World stores. I jokingly said to him in that case why dont you sell at the same price then as something that is £65 in Uk should be approx €100 here, Not €125!!!! LOL.

I walked over to Maplins and funny enough there was a guy in front of me who had brought back a DAB radio and he was complaining that he could not get any signal!!!!! LOL again!

Treading on a political landmine here, perhaps we should let the UK government run our broadcasting network and then perhaps we should have a modern up to date digital network both TV and Radio!!!! We have allready been over run by all the UK department stores!!!!

ethernet

snaps wrote:

I was talking to the store manager in PC world Galway about why they are selling all these dvb-T products and DAB Radio products. He was telling me the same as the manager in Cork said, They have to sell the same products as all the UK based PC World stores. I jokingly said to him in that case why dont you sell at the same price then as something that is £65 in Uk should be approx €100 here, Not €125!!!! LOL.

I walked over to Maplins and funny enough there was a guy in front of me who had brought back a DAB radio and he was complaining that he could not get any signal!!!!! LOL again!

Treading on a political landmine here, perhaps we should let the UK government run our broadcasting network and then perhaps we should have a modern up to date digital network both TV and Radio!!!! We have allready been over run by all the UK department stores!!!!

Not forgetting phones manufactured for UK landlines!

I noticed the same thing in PC World a few days ago. I'd say I'm technically savvy but, looking at a Slingbox and seeing 'now with DVB-T' support, I had to question myself! Would this work with bog-standard analogue terrestrial, I thought?

It's so misleading. Irish people just need to complain more and not just accept when they've been sold something that won't even work unless they erect a mile-long aerial pointing North.

satgirl

snaps wrote:

I walked over to Maplins and funny enough there was a guy in front of me who had brought back a DAB radio and he was complaining that he could not get any signal!!!!! LOL again!

To be fair to Maplins (Dublin), when I bought an inexpensive USB/DVB-T stick from them, the staff member told me that he didn't think it would work.

It did, but in fairness too, this was shortly after the trials had recommenced.

Deflector

This is a growing issue, and is has been dealt with officially. Either a Small Claims Court or the Office of the Director of Consumer Affairs has ruled on previous occasions in cases like these, where electronic products were sold in areas where they do not operate - they must be accompanied by in-store notices to that effect.

If a store fails to accept the item back, threaten them with ODCA or Small Claims.
No manager is going to argue, especially as they all know they're in the wrong anyway. You'd pity them all the same having to transplant UK head office policy over here - it causes them nothing but trouble.

brian_rbk

I was in pc world in blanchardstown last week, and saw the digital tv tuners for sale. there was a sign however stating that there was were no digital tv broadcasts in the republic... it didnt state there were test signals available in the dublin area... why would they waste the space on the shelves?!

watty

It isn't sensible to sell equipment for a test service. Tests or trials are not for the general public and the service may change, stop, start etc without warning.

Comreg licences
Test: Private, no memebers of public
Trial: Selected memembers of public. No commercial exploitation or promotion.

Either of course may be possibly received bay anyone subject to normal Telecommunications reception laws.

It might be illegal to promote / mention reception of trial signals in a commercial setting, even though Maplin/Homebase/PC World are 3rd party retailers.

satgirl

brian_rbk wrote:

I was in pc world in blanchardstown last week, and saw the digital tv tuners for sale. there was a sign however stating that there was were no digital tv broadcasts in the republic... it didnt state there were test signals available in the dublin area... why would they waste the space on the shelves?!

For travellers, people living on the border and our Northern cousins looking for bargains in the South.

Antenna

watty wrote:

Test: Private, no memebers of public
Trial: Selected memembers of public. No commercial exploitation or promotion.

Either of course may be possibly received bay anyone subject to normal Telecommunications reception laws.

What is the legal status of those receiving DTT outside the trial? Are they 'technically' breaking the law considering it is not intended for general reception?

(In the same manner as listening to aircraft communications is technically illegal but no one really minds)

byte

I don't think there is anything illegal about it to be honest. If they didn't want any person to see the trials, sure they could've encrypted the signals or used MPEG4 which is harder to receive, due to these MPEG4 receivers being scarce in these parts.

watty

It is perfectly legal to recieve TV signals no matter how transmitted if:
1) You have TV licence
2) Any encrypted channel is watched only via legitimate subscription/ legitimate card.

zilog_jones

I've seen DVB and DAB stuff in Homebase and several other UK retailers in Limerick as well, with no warnings about them being useless around these parts. The gomes

watty

Yes. And BT plug phones too, which sometime will not work if you change the cable. "Proper" BT plugged phones may need an adaptor with a capacitor in it.

zilog_jones

I think the most useless UK things I've here seen are the mains fuse wires for UK-style fuse boxes (they use hand-wireable fuses). I highly doubt there is much of a hand-wiring fuse community in thise country, so can't see them being any use to anyone at all here. Yet Maplin in Limerick have their complete range, with not one proper screw-in ceramic fuse in sight.

Solair

There are a few items of concern:

1) Fusewire - it has no purpose here at all. (as mentioned above) yet, they don't sell Diazed fuses, which are in every home in the country. i.e. the european standard beer-bottle shaped fuses.
I actually know someone who bought some, assuming it did work and couldn't figure out how you got it into the fuse!

It could potentially have legal consequences.


2) Cooker control switches with a socket - illegal to install here for electrical safety reasons. (All sockets legally must have a 30mA RCD protecting them)

3) DAB/DTT products that don't work.

4) BT-standard telephone accessories. Maplins really takes the biscuit by stocking not only the phones, but a whole range of totally useless BT double adaptors and other devices..

How hard are RJ11 fittings to source? It's the most common standard connector on the planet.
Globalisation will rapidly render the weird BT copy of the RJ11 plug extinct anyway. Sure their DSL modems already only ship with RJ11 etc.

The communications stuff is annoying, but I would be a bit concerned with the electrical fittings. While we have broadly similar standards to the UK, they're not identical and it's not a great idea to mix the two up.

I don't understand why these UK chains are taking this attitude either. There are plenty of other examples in Europe where e.g. a hardware store from France might operate in Belgium. I can't imagine they're selling French telephone sockets in that market though, nor Secam tvs.

It's just stupid!

They want our money, but aren't prepared to respect local standards. (mumbles various rebel songs!)

Battery99

Noticed the other day that the TV aerials in B and Q were Digital TV aerials also .

SPDUB

Solair wrote:

Cooker control switches with a socket - illegal to install here for electrical safety reasons. (All sockets legally must have a 30mA RCD protecting them)

How come we changed to allowing no socket whereas the UK stayed with a socket

watty

Our wiring schemes only are superfically similar. For example they only bond Neutral & Earth at substation, we bond Neutral & Earth at each meterbox.

The socket on a UK cooker outlet hasn't and can't have RCB protection easily. All sockets here are via the RCB trip.

You might as well ask why they use a different phone jack (The BT jack is much newer than RJ11 and repalced a 4 pole circular jack. The BT objection to RJ11 was wierd).

Or why UK uses Sterling rather than Euro.

SPDUB

watty wrote:

Our wiring schemes only are superfically similar. For example they only bond Neutral & Earth at substation, we bond Neutral & Earth at each meterbox.

The socket on a UK cooker outlet hasn't and can't have RCB protection easily. All sockets here are via the RCB trip.

You might as well ask why they use a different phone jack (The BT jack is much newer than RJ11 and repalced a 4 pole circular jack. The BT objection to RJ11 was wierd).

Or why UK uses Sterling rather than Euro.

I was just wondering since when we switched to an electric cooker in approx 1988 in our old kitchen we got a cooker switch with a socket but that wasn't available by 95 when we built our new kitchen

zilog_jones

I guess they were allowed in this country at some time. The original fittings in my house had a cooker switch with a socket when we moved in - it was built in the late '60s, however the kitchen was some later extension. Now we just have a switch (got the kitchen done last year).

And the previous house I lived in had a similar switch/socket, but this time an old BS 546 15A socket

Ulsterman 1690

I think just about every house Ive ever been in the Republic (barring the odd one with a gas cooker) had a combined cooker switch/socket.

Ive never heard of them being banned the only reason why I can think of why they might be is because Cookers (generally) are not protected by an ELCB/RCD thing (and therfore presumably anyting plugged into the socket wouldnt be either) but then unless the house was built/wired sometime in the last 15 years or so it probably doesnt have an ELCB anyway.

Incidently In a couple of houses Ive been in (originally wired pre WW2 -Gawdknows what state the wiring is in now :eek: ) in the Republic they were still using Geman style "Schuko" sockets. Apparently in the very early days of the ESB German standards (insofar as there was much technical standardisation at all) predominated. Im guessing that the shift to UK style BS415 and later BS1363 was probably to these been easier to obtain (even though BS1363 isint well suited to use on a 220 volt system) although oddly virtually every fusebox Ive ever seen in the South has been a German type. I did once see rewirable fuses being used on a fairly aincent stage lighting system. ( :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: lethal the thing was too but thats another story)

The BT jack is much newer than RJ11 and repalced a 4 pole circular jack. The BT objection to RJ11 was wierd

The BT objection was something to do with electrical safety standards in the USA being supposedly lower (???) and some concern about "pinging" in extention telephones when pulse dialing was used (admitidely an issue but only a minor irritation for about five minutes sometime during the 1980's)

Whatever happened to all that nonsense about green circles and red triangles and it being the crime of the century to plug the wrong kind of phone into a BT socket ? I mean people are plugging modems and allsorts into their BT sockets thesedays (and not a green circle in site)

Adds: Incidently the way this thread is going I can see it being moved from "ICDG terrestrial" to "Discussion RE: relative merits of various electrical and telephone wiring standards" or somesuch

ZENER

I live in North Dublin and receive DVB via a rooftop antenna. I would guess that a lot of homes in the northern part of ROI already get these channels and think it's perfectly normal. I do agree though that signs should be used to warn people about this, I've intercepted several people in PC world who intended to use these devices on cable systems ?!

Mind you, I also overheard a guy being told that the external USB2 DVDRW drive he was about to buy would work perfectly on his 5 year old PC - point is they don't care, it's another sale to them.

ZEN

watty

Contractors in Ireland aren't renowned for following standards. Now, certianly "professionally" installed wiring does not have the combo cooker/socket.

Siemens did the Shannon Scheme. Maybe that's why early electrial outlets the Continetal style.

The RJ11 can have 6 wires same as BT jack. Only four wires needed for anti-tinkle on pulse dialing with extensions.

A small child can poke finger into a BT jack socket. The ringing voltage hurts and might be fatal if you lying in a salty puddle (loose nappy?).

BT got it wrong.

Oddly the terrible UK / Ireland TV connector with often badly made up connection and loose inner is American (Belling Lee), but US only uses either 300Ohm screw connections or F-Connector for all TV.

It's time ALL TV RF connections used F-Connector not just Satellite & Cable TV.

Ulsterman 1690

Contractors in Ireland aren't renowned for following standards.

A lot of the books on wiring etc on sale in the Republic were originally published for the UK market which probably has a lot of people confused

The RJ11 can have 6 wires same as BT jack. Only four wires needed for anti-tinkle on pulse dialing with extensions. A small child can poke finger into a BT jack socket. The ringing voltage hurts and might be fatal if you lying in a salty puddle (loose nappy?).
BT got it wrong.

Only advantage I can see with the BT socket is that it is slightly less fiddly to plug in/out than the RJ11. Other than that youre absolutely right BTW why do they call it a BT "jack". I always thought a "jack plug" reffered to the type of plug commonly used on headphones etc

Oddly the terrible UK / Ireland TV connector with often badly made up connection and loose inner is American (Belling Lee), but US only uses either 300 Ohm screw connections or F-Connector for all TV. It's time ALL TV RF connections used F-Connector not just Satellite & Cable TV.

Its moving that way but slowly (what do they use in mainland Europe BTW ??) Incidently the PL259/SO239 system used in a lot of amateur/PMR/CB/low power broadcast gear is little better. BNC is better but is a right pain to solder and its too easy to mix up the 52 and 75 ohm varities

ZENER

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

A lot of the books on wiring etc on sale in the Republic were originally published for the UK market which probably has a lot of people confused

Not only that but when I was an apprentice it was required that we do the City & Guilds B and C trade examinations in order to be a card carrying sparks - talk about confusion !!! Any recent skivvies er I mean apprentices able to throw any light (pun intended) as to whether this is still the case ?

Its moving that way but slowly (what do they use in mainland Europe BTW ??) Incidently the PL259/SO239 system used in a lot of amateur/PMR/CB/low power broadcast gear is little better. BNC is better but is a right pain to solder and its too easy to mix up the 52 and 75 ohm varities

Most professional TX gear I've worked on uses "N" connectors. Also I remember soldering BNCs - thousands of the flippin' things - for CCTV and the like!!! Then I discovered . . . . crimping . . . oh how we laughed . . . !!

ZEN

DMC

Could be worse, it could be Italy, where the fittings is not only dependent on the power supply..... but which Allied country invaded you after World War II

Ulsterman 1690

they only bond Neutral & Earth at substation, we bond Neutral & Earth at each meterbox.

Bonding at the meterbox sounds like a much better idea

That way if the neutral wire (but not the live) supplying the house breaks the whole house doesnt become live :eek:

One thing thats crap about ESB domestic meterboxes is that the main fuse is only 63 amps (Or 35 amps in some older/smaller dwellings) wheras in the UK it is usually 80 A or even 100 A

If a house has only a 63 amp main fuse and two electric showers chances are the damn thing will blow sooner or later

Solair

Ulsterman, it depends on the age of the area in question. It's often 80A in new developments.

The system in the Republic is far more European than the UK though. It was originally designed, much like in Germany, Scandinavia etc, around using 3-phase when the service went beyond a certain size. If you need more power though, ESB can "reinforce" your supply.

As for the "schuko" plugs/sockets in the Republic they were officially still standard until quite recently and were the prefered standard by the ESB. They're still mentioned in the ESB's "how to wire a plug" guides as "the 16A side-earthed plug"

There was a considerable mixup with British standards though i.e. BS546 sockets appearing etc. Partially, because they were probabally easier to source and partially because electricians were probabally influenced by UK norms.

The migration to BS1363 (the current UK standard) was influenced by the fact that Schuko and BS546 don't play well together. It's possible to mate a Schuko plug with a BS546 (5A) socket without making contact with the earth which is pretty dangerous.

The current UK standard plugs basically forced everything to standardise. There was similar thinking behind the move to square pins in the UK, a mixture of old 2 and 3 pin standards in use that were potentially dangerous.

Another major difference in the Republic is that the way a house/office is wired is much more European. It's normally 16A or 20A radials for sockets not 32A rings as in the UK.

The ring circuits would actually prevent the UK from easily migrating to a common European system if one is ever brought about as they require the use of fused plugs (or individually fused sockets). Where as in Ireland, you could swap a socket for a German one in most houses (provided it's on a 16/20A radial and it would be functioning exactly the same way as it would in Germany)

Solair

Ulsterman, it depends on the age of the area in question. It's often 80A in new developments.

The system in the Republic is far more European than the UK though. It was originally designed, much like in Germany, Scandinavia etc, around using 3-phase when the service went beyond a certain size. If you need more power though, ESB can "reinforce" your supply.

As for the "schuko" plugs/sockets in the Republic they were officially still standard until quite recently and were the prefered standard by the ESB. They're still mentioned in the ESB's "how to wire a plug" guides as "the 16A side-earthed plug". They were still being installed in the 1950s and 60s, so the installations you're seeing may not be pre WWII. They're a far less convoluted system than BS546 which has 3 different sized mutually incompatable plugs. They're also safer, in sofar as they're recessed, i.e. you can't touch the live pins. So, many electricans in those days prefered them and they're correctly rated for 16A radial circuits.

There was a considerable mixup with British standards though i.e. BS546 sockets appearing etc. Partially, because they were probabally easier to source and partially because electricians were probabally influenced by UK norms.

The migration to BS1363 (the current UK standard) was influenced by the fact that Schuko and BS546 don't play well together. It's possible to mate a Schuko plug with a BS546 (5A) socket without making contact with the earth which is pretty dangerous.

The current UK standard plugs basically forced everything to standardise. There was similar thinking behind the move to square pins in the UK, a mixture of old 2 and 3 pin standards in use that were potentially dangerous.

Another major difference in the Republic is that the way a house/office is wired is much more European. It's normally 16A or 20A radials for sockets not 32A rings as in the UK.

The ring circuits would actually prevent the UK from easily migrating to a common European system if one is ever brought about as they require the use of fused plugs (or individually fused sockets). Where as in Ireland, you could swap a socket for a German one in most houses (provided it's on a 16/20A radial and it would be functioning exactly the same way as it would in Germany)

Ulsterman 1690

As for the "schuko" plugs/sockets in the Republic they were officially still standard until quite recently and were the prefered standard by the ESB.

Did the ESB Shops sell them

Another major difference in the Republic is that the way a house/office is wired is much more European. It's normally 16A or 20A radials for sockets not 32A rings as in the UK.

Are there 25 amp radials used in ireland ? (I seem to remember seeing them )

The ring circuits were introduced to make more efficent use of copper (which was apparently in short supply in the late 1940's/Easly 50's when the UK was still recovering from wartime shortages) Another advantage is that one can plug say a heater and tumble drier onto the same circuit withoug overloading it. On the downside there could be theoreticallty be saferty issues if someone puts a heavy load near one end of the ring and the current doesnt divide equally. Ive also often wondered about the wisdom of having unfused "spurs" on a ring circuit.

There are good safety arguments for having fused plugs even on 15/16 amp radial circuits. (one of them being that if one is using a small appliance with a thin flex there the fire risk from a faulty/damaged flex is reduced) Pity that the BS1363 is such a poor design in just about every other respect.

The German Schuko is not a true European standard as many European countries use variations on it (only the pin spacing is standard just about everywhere in Europe) Some countries have a 10 amp version of it (4.0 mm pin thickness instead of 4.8 mm) others use a proper earth pin instead of the earth clips (although the size and position varies) The French Earth pin is on the wall socket (with holes on the plug !) A big disadvantage of the "Side Earth" system is that it is easy to insert the plug upside down (with live and neutral reversed) For most appliances this doesnt make much difference but with some (those with single pole switches or internal fuses) Its another potential safety issue.

The American NEMA 5-15 standard has some good safety features (no fuses though and only suitable for 120 volts)

byrnefm

So how long will it be before (like the metric system) before we have to change over to using the Schuko standard? Just think of the boom in plugs! And the boom in mis-wired connections. Yikes!

Ulsterman 1690

Maybe sooner than you think

However, unlike with BS 1363, IEC 60906 does not mandate a fuse in each plug. It may well be feasible to design IEC 60906-1 plugs with an integrated fuse, and to introduce national variants of IEC 60906-1 that mandate fuses. However, the mere fact that the same plug might be used without fuses in other regions would require additional precautions should this system ever replace BS 1363 in Britain, such as the use of fuses in sockets or stricter safety requirements for power cords. Also the plug is unlikely to have as low a profile to the wall, making use behind cupboards harder. (It is technically possible to make an IEC 60906-1 plug/socket combination with a similar profile to a BS 1363, but only if the socket has a recess and the cord exit angle exceeds the recommendations of the specification.)

zilog_jones

Solair wrote:

Ulsterman, it depends on the age of the area in question. It's often 80A in new developments.

Yes, I've seen 80A fuses here in newer houses and rewired houses.

[Schuko plugs] were still being installed in the 1950s and 60s, so the installations you're seeing may not be pre WWII. They're a far less convoluted system than BS546 which has 3 different sized mutually incompatable plugs.

Have you seen many houses with Schuko plugs? Right now I can only think of two houses with some original pre-BS1363 electrics:

- The house I lived in up until 2002. It was rented, so we couldn't do much about the hideous electrics :rolleyes: . It was inbetween Greystones and Shannonville in Limerick, dunno when it was built exactly, but Greystones was 1960 and has very similar houses. It had all BS546 sockets, with one 15A to a room, all fitted in the skirting boards (that was fun). Only the kitchen and garage had been "blessed" with new sockets, but the original cooker switch/socket remained. There was only one smaller socket in the house (not sure if 2A or 5A) - disturbingly close to the fireplace in the sitting room - however it didn't seem to be wired to anything. Confusingly there were a few electrical things in the house when we moved in - an old toaster, an electric clock and some other ancient junk - all with schucko plugs . And I remember there were no earth wires going to the sockets I looked inside.
I assume it was all UK-style rings as there were only 5 fuses for the entire house. The fuse box was quite small, and used the narrower than usual fuses (i.e. not the bell-shaped ones) which were kinda hard to find, especially the higher rated ones.

- My grandparents' house, in Garryowen (i.e. corpo-tastic), built in 1965 IIRC. Again it had BS546 15A sockets, one to a room. These had been slowly replaced around the house - there's only one or two left upstairs now, and double 13A sockets have been added elsewhere. I don't remember seeing any of the smaller sockets. The originals were again in the skirting boards, but at least this time they were fitted sideways (unlike our old house) so there was half a chance of fitting anything in them!
There's like 6 fuses in the (still original) box, so I assume it's rings as well. It uses the more common bell-shaped fuses.
They got their kitchen done in the early '90s - I can't remember what was there before but the cooker switch is on its own.
They also since got electric storage heaters put in - they were apparently fitted totally separately to the rest of the electrics, with their own fuse box and meter. Is this common practise with these?

And then there's my current house (Caherdavin, Limerick), built in '68 I think - a year after the first BS 1363 standard. All the original sockets are single unswitched 13A sockets, with some of them again mounted on the skirting boards - this time upside down! It's definately all rings as we got a wall containing a socket knocked down between two rooms downstairs - the wire got cut and most of the sockets downstairs didn't work!

There were not one but three fuse boxes when we moved in - one main manky old black one (about 6 fuses, "normal" size), one with two fuses (for the kitchen extension - lights and a socket I think), and one lonesome RCD for the electric shower. Since then we got a new fuse box with all RCDs, connected to an earth rod thing out in the garden, and more new switched double sockets.

It's possible to mate a Schuko plug with a BS546 (5A) socket without making contact with the earth which is pretty dangerous.

It's very easy to jam a schuko or europlug in a BS1363 socket too - all you need to do is open the shutters with a screwdriver, biro, etc. I know several people who were regularly doing this, unbeknownst of the dangers associated with the lack of a fuse and/or earthing.

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

The American NEMA 5-15 standard has some good safety features (no fuses though and only suitable for 120 volts)

Ughh, I hates 'em . I lived in Saudi for a few years in the early '90s, and the area I lived in had decided to use those for 110V stuff - I think 230V things like our dishwasher actually had a BS 1363 plug . The US-style plugs are very easy to pull out, there's no insulation on the pins and they can often work half-in (i.e. with exposed contacts).

Also, the hand-wired 2-pin plugs are possibly THE dodgiest things in the world: One day my radio stopped working, so I went to touch the plug - I got some nasty electric shock (I was about 7 at the time!) and the main breaker tripped. When we got the lights back on it turned out the bottom half of the plug (the plastic casing was in two parts, screwed together) had fallen off, meaning the two pins were totally exposed, and live, yet it was quite difficult to actually notice this unless you were at eye level or lower with the plug.

It's stuff like that which makes BS 1363 sound like an absolutely wonderful system in comparison. If they fall apart it's quite obvious, and I've never seen them fall apart in the same fashion as the screw and fitting holding the two parts together is quite strong compared to the crappy little screw holding the two crappy thin pieces of plastic together in the above example. IIRC the threads or some part of the plug had actually cracked - you'd have to apply some amount of force to a BS 1363 plug to break it in a similarly dangerous fashion.

OK I've definately written too much now