Munster Cop Out!!

Diamondmaker

After tonights match it was really confirmed for me that Munsters attitude gives them an immense advantage in the H Cup over all other competing teams.

Munster ( fans ) freely admit they are not concerned with the ML and Kidneys selection in the ML seems to hint at this.

The top H Cup Players currently are:

Stade, Perpignan, Biarritz
Glouster, Sale, Leicester, Northampton, Wasps
LLanelli, Ospreys, Leinster, Munster, Ulster

A look at the respective domestic leagues will show that all of the above bar Munster and Northampton are competing ferociously for these titles. ( every team above is in top 4/5 of their league bar Munster and Northampton
The English and Welsh also have the added burden of the Powergen Cup.

Munster really only have to turn up and compete 6 games per season to deliver a European Cup:
Say 2 to 3 of the group games are relative bankers ( maybe 4 ) in any given season.
3 critical remaining KO game and then QF, SF and Final.

All other teams competing in the H Cup are fielding competitive teams week in week out in a battle to juggle domestic responsibilities with Euro glory.
Fans other than Munster will not accept poor domestic form for the pursuit of Euro glory.

Leinster also have competed well in both leagues ( runner up and 2nd currently ) and tomorrow will field arguably a full strength team at home.

Kidney also has the balls to moan after all this about the amount of games he has to play. His full team have only turned up on a handfull of games this season and the Top 14 are in their 17th match of that league.
The Irish players as we know are also the least played in Euro rugby even when they do an ODriscoll and play every ML and HCup, 6N game in a season.
Where are ROG and POC etc week in week out. Bench warming or at home in front of telly!

Munster take advantage of the privelaged situation that the ML allows top teams to coast along with (little or) no risk of relegation.

When Munster can string a ERC cup victory run along with a good domestic season then they can be compared to Leicester etc. ...but they dont and wont. I have heard a lot of this from the English and would tend to agree.
Leinster, Ulster, Ospreys, Llanelli are all out there trying to compete in both.
That sport you want to win everything.

Its like Ronaldo gettign fat until WC time!

RuggieBear

I kinda see what you are saying.... but the HC is the be all and end all for Munster!

Why should they jeopardise their chances of retaining their crown and risking their players fitness in a competition where they only have to do is not be the worst placed Irish team?

Jilm

Munster are pacing themselves (esp the International players) for a looong season.

I'd rather be in our position than the overplayed French, English & Welsh teams.

You'll be grateful for Munster's selection policy come the 6N and RWC.

That being said I thought DK could have sent a couple more first line players over to the Dragons game tonight, even without the benefit of hindsight.

davyjose

I think a lot of pressure has been put on Munster to succeed in the ERC, by both the media and fans alike, and this has actually been exacerbated now that they're champions. I have a feeling that next season Munster will put a lot more onus on the ML, particularly if they don't win it this year. I could be wrong but I think it would probably be in everyone's best interest if they did: opponents want Munster to bring their A game, and from a Munster point of view - not winning the Heineken Cup AND finishing mid table is a fairly disastrous result, much worse than not winning the Heineken Cup and finishing in the top 3!

Diamondmaker

Last night and last season ( and early this season ) was a disgrace in the ML by Munster. I would be so offended if I had to watch that drivel week in week out by my team.

Munster as I point out are the only team in Europe obviously taking advantage of the ML custhy scenario to focus on the ERC. Its a clear policy whether dicussed or not b y Munster.

PS Jilm thats my point, it may be a loong season but it is far shorter for the Irish than the rest and for Munster amongst the Irish.
I think if any of the top Eng, Fr, Welsh, Leinster teams basically forsake the domestic ie "pace themselves for a loong season" they would decrese injuries and improve chances of winning a one off KO competition quite alot.

Sangre

I think you make a lot of fair points. Munster don't put their top players out nearly as much as many other teams home and abroad. Of course I'd hardly blame Kidney, the fans are interested in only one thing, the HC...its their 'destiny' after all.

Jilm

I think some of the "outrage" expressed on this thread should be directed at the IRFU & EOS as they don't take the ML 100% seriously. No other team in the NH (let alone Ireland) loses a greater proportion of front line players to international matches & fitness camps as much as Munster does which is going to put a dint in any teams ML/domestic league aspirations.

daveirl

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daveirl

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Amazotheamazing

Yeah, Munster are glad to lose 10 of their first team for the first 5 games, makes it really easy to take the ML seriously, same as last year, going to play Ulster during the 6n's and EOS didn't even release the Munster players who were on the Irish bench, we played a virtually full choice Ulster with a team made of AIL players. Why should we take the ML seriously when the powers in charge make it impossible for Munster to be ompetitive in it?

Anyhow, as Dave said, we were doing well until Manning went off, Hickey looked like he'd just taken up rugby last week.

daveirl

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Jilm

Strings was left at home as well.

Amazotheamazing

Stringer has a chest infection, couldn't have played anyway, but I'm sure the anti-everything-Munster bunch will just see it as further proof (Oh know Stringer would never get a chest infection before a HEC game, it just shows how little he respects the ML etc etc).

Anyhow, Hayes, POC, DOC, Wallace and O'Gara have played pretty much every game since the start of October, including 2 test games, they are due to play 2 further HEC games and then the 6n's, shame on Munster for giving them a rest. Sheehan has comeback from injury and played loads of rugby due to injuries to Flannery and Fogerty, I suppose he doesn't deserve a rest either?

Jilm

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Stringer has a chest infection, couldn't have played anyway, but I'm sure the anti-everything-Munster bunch will just see it as further proof (Oh know Stringer would never get a chest infection before a HEC game, it just shows how little he respects the ML etc etc).

Ah, missed that news about Stringer. Having him last night would have helped a lot, as TOL is decent on the wing but really isn't up to playing halfback.

RuggieBear

daveirl wrote:

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A better question would be when was the last time BOD played in Donnybrook (Leinster's proper home ground)

thirdmantackle

its a joke ireland are guaranteed three places in the Heineken Cup each year

they should be made to work much harder for qualification in both domestic competition and ML. might make them field stronger teams/take it more seriously

zAbbo

RuggieBear wrote:

A better question would be when was the last time BOD played in Donnybrook (Leinster's proper home ground)

Before he went off on Lions duty in 2005?

Nukem

thirdmantackle wrote:

its a joke ireland are guaranteed three places in the Heineken Cup each year

I would love to see Connacht in the H Cup some day i really would, but the only way that will happen is if Munster impload or they get through the back door.

Twas a shame to watch Munster perform so poorly last night. TOL is not a natural SH as he has to adjust and pass off his right all the time.Manning still is a bit iffy but has his moments and is severly brave in the tackle (a disadvantage sometimes)

Noticed Mafi is the greatest first up tackler as well! Dowling looked very good and would severly think about moving him to centre sometime as he spins and is very hard to put down.

Prayed Buckley would have a good match but was average and looked like he was ready to collapse when he came off.

Munster need more quality cover in key positions! SC, OH and hooker! and these would make a huge difference in the ML, if they had genuine cover in these positions they can work off a platform.

daveirl

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Trojan

Leinster didn't take the Ospreys seriously tonight in Donners and look what they did.

When Leinster backed off (to practically reverse gear) Ospreys made an decent attempt at a come back with 15-20 mins to go but got smacked down for their troubles. They're 5th in the league and Leinster didn't even break a sweat...

Ireland are simply very strong right now. Let's make the most of it, long may it last.

Diamondmaker

daveirl wrote:

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33% LEFT AT HOME, OH AND STRINGS TOO! not gonna do the maths, but thats alot!

Leinster played all no1 heads till the BP was in bag.
BOD has played every gane that IRFU has made him available for, any games missed were missed by all Ire team.

So no real answers by anyone other than yes its true, Munstyer the real lady boys glamour noys of irish rugby!

Teg Veece

So Munster are meant to play they're strongest 15 every match? Try to be a bit realistic. Players do need rests.
Obviously Munster would have preferred to win that match. Both management and players have made it clear on a number of occasions that they are disappointed with their performance in the ML and will need to improve, but you can't criticise them for giving players a break every now and then. This topic is just a silly cheap dig at Munster.

Diamondmaker

Trojan wrote:

Leinster didn't take the Ospreys seriously tonight in Donners and look what they did.

When Leinster backed off (to practically reverse gear) Ospreys made an decent attempt at a come back with 15-20 mins to go but got smacked down for their troubles. They're 5th in the league and Leinster didn't even break a sweat...

Ireland are simply very strong right now. Let's make the most of it, long may it last.

Only a team consisting of BOD, Phil, Denis, Darcy, Whits, Jamie, Keogh , Hogan could do this to a depleted Ospreys.

Fair dues for wheeling out such talent for a "banker" game of course they were gonna bust them!

Ospryes, unlike Munster, are backs to the wall, all or nothing win this w/e coming and hence the lay off. They competed allseason in ML til tonight.
And even more Kudos to leinster for playing the heads they did under circumstances, makes the season ticket worth it!

zAbbo

Diamondmaker wrote:

Only a team consisting of BOD, Phil, Denis, Darcy, Whits, Jamie, Keogh , Hogan could do this to a depleted Ospreys.

Fair dues for wheeling out such talent for a "banker" game of course they were gonna bust them!

Ospryes, unlike Munster, are backs to the wall, all or nothing win this w/e coming and hence the lay off. They competed allseason in ML til tonight.
And even more Kudos to leinster for playing the heads they did under circumstances, makes the season ticket worth it!

Fair enough it wasn't the full team, but 10 of the Ospreys did play against the touring Wallabies a few weeks ago, and beat them !

If Munster were in with a shout of the ML they'd have put out a stronger side, but they're not and it makes more sense to conserve players for bigger days.

Teg Veece

Diamondmaker wrote:

Last night and last season ( and early this season ) was a disgrace in the ML by Munster. I would be so offended if I had to watch that drivel week in week out by my team.

Diamondmaker, what are you talking about? Munster finished 3rd in last years Celtic League and their early season this year was hampered by the core of the team weren't allowed play because of EOS's 10 week holiday thing.
Munster aren't the All Blacks. It's not like they have a second team that can just take the place of the first whenever they feel like it and not suffer a dip in form.
Munster have generally played the best team that was available to them at the time. On a few rare occasions, players who have been playing a lot of tough matches have been rested. That's a necessity too, not a luxury. It's not as if a player can continue to play match after match and not suffer from fatigue. Resting them improves their performance in subsequent matches and has to be done.

In a way, Munster a victims of their own success. All the teams key players get tied up in international duties and the players that replace them are generally young and inexperienced. But that will change over time. On the other hand, I suppose Munster could just do what some other teams have done and buy in a load of foreign players to fill the gaps but that hardly does Irish rugby any good now does it.

Diamondmaker

Nothing like a bit of inter pro banter for the craic!:D

I actually think that either of Cardiff, Ospreys or Edinburgh will win it. One or all of them likley to be out of H cup soon and focus 100% on ML. The welsh teams may also be less affected by internationals than Edinburgh also.

Assuming Leinster continue in the Cup though.......

Diamondmaker

Teg Veece wrote:

So Munster are meant to play they're strongest 15 every match? Try to be a bit realistic. Players do need rests.
Obviously Munster would have preferred to win that match. Both management and players have made it clear on a number of occasions that they are disappointed with their performance in the ML and will need to improve, but you can't criticise them for giving players a break every now and then. This topic is just a silly cheap dig at Munster.

Missing the point....all the provinces have the same match count to date, Leinster and Munster similar interntional impact and similar need to rest players. You would therfore assume that all things equal so far that the ERC champs should at least be at the races in the domestic if they really genuinely were trying.

No cheap shot intended but I would expect more from the ERC champs and as a fan its a little disappointing to see them this season languishing.

Trojan

As Ruggie will tell ya, I'm very confused as to where my loyalties lie but I'll bet only the most hard-core of Leinster fans weren't secretly somewhat happy to see Munster finally lift the HC this year, despite the arrogance and over-grown superiority complex, and despite the drubbing in the semi-final - it was still great as an Irishman to see them do it.

davyjose

Trojan wrote:

As Ruggie will tell ya, I'm very confused as to where my loyalties lie but I'll bet only the most hard-core of Leinster fans weren't secretly somewhat happy to see Munster finally lift the HC this year, despite the arrogance and over-grown superiority complex, and despite the drubbing in the semi-final - it was still great as an Irishman to see them do it.

Really? And how would you feel if Leinster won it this year. TBH, once we went out last year, I was up for Munster , because it's good for Irish Rugby, but I didn't even watch the final.

Erin Go Brath

davyjose wrote:

Really? And how would you feel if Leinster won it this year. TBH, once we went out last year, I was up for Munster , because it's good for Irish Rugby, but I didn't even watch the final.

Yeh, you were really up for Munster, not even bothering to watch the final because the boys in blue weren't in it :rolleyes:

Erin Go Brath

Am I the only Munster fan here, pissed off with Munsters performance on Friday night?

Having 10 different players in the starting XV from the previous week means either 1 of 2 things: They thought they'd have no bother beating the Dragons with a virtual second string team, or they just don't give a fiddlers about the ML. Either way im not impressed!

The season is surely not that hectic that fit professional sportsmen need 2 weeks rest between games, especially since a lot of the players only started about 4 games into the ML season. Dont see any reason personally why Munster can't be competitive in both competitons.

davyjose

That's my point EGB - I was like "Ah Munster won? That's good I suppose." Mildly pleased that the team I wanted to win, but not exactly overjoyed. It's good that - in most cases - the Munster/Leinster hatred(kidding)/Rivalry stops when we're no longer in direct competition, but I only have room in my heart for one team - everyone else is the enemy.

Also, I was still nursing my wounds from the semi (I can laugh now ... just!)

davyjose

Erin Go Brath wrote:

not even bothering to watch the final because the boys in blue weren't in it :rolleyes:

What's wrong with that?

Diamondmaker

Erin Go Brath wrote:

Am I the only Munster fan here, pissed off with Munsters performance on Friday night?

Having 10 different players in the starting XV from the previous week means either 1 of 2 things: They thought they'd have no bother beating the Dragons with a virtual second string team, or they just don't give a fiddlers about the ML. Either way im not impressed!

The season is surely not that hectic that fit professional sportsmen need 2 weeks rest between games, especially since a lot of the players only started about 4 games into the ML season. Dont see any reason personally why Munster can't be competitive in both competitons.

Here here a Munster fan finally saying it as it is on this topic. ANd you should be pissed off, your season ticket does not just kick in from Jan to May does it!

buck65

What a chip you have on your shoulder... Munster won the Heineken Cup , stuffed your side in the process of doing it , then beat ye again last week in the Magners league!
Its just sour grapes boyo.
Get over the whole Munster bashing thing and grow up , if we're so one dimensional how come ye can't beat us.
I would always shout for Leinster when we're not playing them and I still do because they are a great Irish team and so are Ulster, but this petty sledging is just ridiculous , keep your nose in your own camp and stop stirring ****.

buck65

Back to Friday nights performance , I think the lads tried hard for the win and were right to rest a few players, it was good to see some of the lads back from injury. I think realistically Munster don't see themselves winning the Magner's league and have used it to good effect this year to try out some new talent and experiment because you never know when an injury or a sin binning will force you to try a new idea.
Best of luck to Leinster in the League but back to the OP I think if Leinster were really confident about winning the Hcup they might be resting a few for the upcoming games too!?

RuggieBear

off topic

banned.

EDIT: Pity you didn't just reply with your second post.

daveirl

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Nice0ne

As a munster fan I was very disappointed with the game on Friday night. It's not that they could have won the match, they should have won the match ... but it seems like they had no game plan when all the subs came on in the final quarter.

The Leinster match was great to watch but tackling was non-existent for most of it with both sides being guilty of going asleep. Credit goes to D'arch and kearney who showed great strenght in the tackle but the Ospreys were not committed enough.

Diamondmaker

buck65 wrote:

What a chip you have on your shoulder... Munster won the Heineken Cup , stuffed your side in the process of doing it , then beat ye again last week in the Magners league!
Its just sour grapes boyo.
Get over the whole Munster bashing thing and grow up , if we're so one dimensional how come ye can't beat us.
I would always shout for Leinster when we're not playing them and I still do because they are a great Irish team and so are Ulster, but this petty sledging is just ridiculous , keep your nose in your own camp and stop stirring ****.

I sat down to watch some rugby Fri noight and watched an Irish team play terrible sruff with a very poor selection. Every other province played the same amount of games in the same period and both managed to perform the w/e before the H Cup.
Its not a chip, it annoys me and rightly gives the English fuel to threaten to pull out of HCup and its dicredits the ML. The ML which is ESSENTIAL for the Irish Provinces continued development and is also responsible for it to a great deal
Leinsters increased competitivenss since the season after 01 ( wher we did not get out of pools ) and Munster winnng are not conincidental with the ML taking off.

I want to see the top 3 finsh from Ireland again as they are the best 3 teams. The ML must be respected for what it is if it is to keep its participants at the smae level as the other nations who are in truly competive domestic compettions.

Munster wont win a H Cup in 5 years for example if the guys are playing week in week out in a sub standard ML.
Look at the bigger pic guys. Why not keep stadards high and aim to win 2 trophies like eryone else.

PS Leinster have beat you may times and recently and not so recently....lost one, a big profile game to a better, bigger and more experienced team. experience being the key point I feel. In a similar way to the many Munster lost on their way to maturity. I hope/know that game helped Leinster in a way leicester etc te c etc helped Munster mature.

davyjose

buck65 wrote:

What a chip you have on your shoulder... if we're so one dimensional how come ye can't beat us.

Just a quick question ... how often do we have to beat you before people stop saying Leinster can't beat Munster? I'm just curious, because last I checked we played 4 times in roughly the last year - lost twice, won twice. We didn't turn around after either of our victories and say you couldn't beat us, so why do some Munster fans do.
Seriously if you think there's a chip on anyone's shoulder, you should maybe take a look in the mirror.

RuggieBear

davyjose wrote:

Just a quick question ... how often do we have to beat you before people stop saying Leinster can't beat Munster? I'm just curious, because last I checked we played 4 times in roughly the last year - lost twice, won twice. We didn't turn around after either of our victories and say you couldn't beat us, so why do some Munster fans do.
Seriously if you think there's a chip on anyone's shoulder, you should maybe take a look in the mirror.

Banned.

off topic

Amazotheamazing

Diamondmaker, how would you ensure players get a rest? Players like Hayes, POC, DOC, O'Gara, Wallace (carrying an injury btw) and Stringer have been playing loads of rugby already this season, and it's still miles to the RWC, so when would you rest them?

Last year we could have called on Trevor Hogan or Stephen Keogh to play for us, they've moved on and now need to bring in new players, guys like Donnacha Ryan and Manning have what it takes to reach the top level in rugby, but only if they get games. If you'd rather Leinster gave us back Hogan and Keogh, we'd be grateful, but frankly I'd rather they were starting week-in, week-out, something they wouldn't be in Munster. At hooker, we're down to our fourth choice through injuries, likewise, McGann (our replacement 7) is injured.

I honestly don't see your problem, you seem to think players don't need any rest during a season?

bugler

Diamondmaker wrote:

Its not a chip, it annoys me and rightly gives the English fuel to threaten to pull out of HCup and its dicredits the ML.

The English/French threats to withdraw from the HC have absolutely nothing to do with the ML in any way. This is a very strange and inaccurate assertion to make.

Munster will struggle in the ML when resting their front-liners because crucially they lose their half-backs. The replacements probably aren't up to it. TOL should be converted to wing full-time, I'm not convinced Manning will ever be good enough. Leinster don't lose Dr. Phil with anything like the same regularity, nor their scrum half.

Diamondmaker

bugler wrote:

The English/French threats to withdraw from the HC have absolutely nothing to do with the ML in any way. This is a very strange and inaccurate assertion to make.

.

Why would the English and Fr compete in the H Cup if the Irish teams choose to focus all energies on it and give them a greater edge to be competitive in it. In principal this is the point.

The other point is that the Irish teams ( note I say Irish and not Munster ) play less games than everyone else and therefore should have less requirement to rest players than the other teams.

So not much point diputing the fact that Irish teams can rest players more and play less games to deliver relative success if they dont consider the ML worth the effort.

This is an endless circle and no one even attempts to address the point.

"irish teams play less game and can afford to neglect the ML, unlike T14 and ZPM teams, hence giving them an edge in HCup, an edge, which Munster seem to exploit"

That is the point its easy to understand and there is no arguing it any way...
Fair dues to Munster for exploiting this this season. I hope its a Leinster Munster final. It should be... They are both good enough and have this edge equally!

Im finished on the topic.

Jilm

Diamondmaker wrote:

Im finished on the topic.

Is that a promise?

Diamondmaker

I promise

Amazotheamazing

Thats twice you've ignored my question Diamondmaker, I take it you're just looking to stir up more Munster/Leinster aggro, rather than actually examine the reasons why Munster occasionally have field weakened teams? The playing less doesn't wash, becuase since Irish provinces are poorer than English or French teams we don't have the same depth in our squads.

Teg Veece

He won't answer it either, Amazo. I've put forward the same point but he just seemed to ignore the fact the players actually need to be rested on occasions (the Dragon's match was actually the first time in quite a few games that some of the players were given a break). I reckon the enormous chip on his shoulder is preventing him from typing a proper reply (so far on this thread alone he's called Munster rugby "drivel" and the players a bunch of "ladyboys").

Diamondmaker

Im breaking a promise here to another Munster guy...........

Squad rotation is the way, rest 1 or 2 as things go. Not 6 in one game. Thats squad demolition.

Interchanging say 2 1st liners with 2 rookies allows them settle into the team on the day better than parachuting 5 or 6 guys in. 2 guys can be minded etc.
Resting 5/6 players and asking rookies to some how compete, Is asking to lose. No one really benefits from this chaos.. If a team wishes to win every game it will pace itself differently. drop a new OH in with experienced SH centre etc. The way EOS described his attitude to PIs selection.
Indeed the commentator at the time of the Dragons game ( MsKenna?) also noted that the lay offs were excessive and that 1 or 2 extra front line forwards in the pack would have made a lot of diifference to the overall.

Look I think Cheika sums it up when he says he feels game time is more beneficial than just training ground stuff. The 2 coaches have a different ethic.

Dont get so upset you have no interest in the ML any way. This time I will leave this topic. Ruggie please ban me if I reply anymore to this!;)

Trojan

Y'know, I have to say I agree with Diamond there.

Squad management is an area I think that club managers could learn from the likes of Alex Ferguson who have been expert over the years at knowing who to rest and when, during which competition.

It may simply be the case that Kidney has to learn.