Turn decision. TPGK vs fish and Drawheavy board

Mr. Flibble

Both players in this hand are fishy (not me! the other two). VPIP of 40+. MP has just rebought for 160 after buying for 40 or the likes and nursign a 25 stack for a while.
What do I do on the turn?
Bet 2/3 pot and be pot committed? Check and hope for Kc on river? Or push and close my eyes?

There is $130 left behind on the turn.

Holdem No Limit - $2 BB

CO ($103.50)
Button ($14)
SB ($239.45) [Mr. Flibble]
BB ($214.75)
UTG ($205)
MP ($162.29)

Mr. Flibble is SB with Ks, Qc
Preflop: (6 players, $3)
UTG folds, MP calls $2, CO calls $2, Button calls $2, Mr. Flibble calls $1 and raises $8, BB folds, MP calls $8, CO calls $8, Button folds

Flop: 3d, Qs, 5d (3 players, $34)
Mr. Flibble bets $20, MP calls $20, CO calls $20

Turn: 2s (3 players, $94)

ChipLdr

I wouldnt raise with KQos in sb preflop for a start. I'd say one of them is possibly on a flush draw so i'd probably bet out and reevaluate if raised.

Mr. Flibble

Even against two 40% vpip bad players? For me QK = AK or AQ in this situation if I flop an K or Q. I'm not worried about them having AQ+.

The pot is 94. If I bet out say 50-60 what do I do if I'm min-rerasied all in?

Rb

Raising to 5BBs from the SB with KQo eh?Noted

BobSloane

Its a tough situation against 2 players. Especially if you regard them as fish they could be capable of hanging about with A4 post flop just seeing the gutshot draw and thinking if they hit an A it would also be gold. Checking or betting small isn't really an option as you must feel about 99% sure one of them is on a flush draw and you can't give them a free river card or price them in and then have to check/fold a diamond on the river. Once you've taken the line you have pre-flop I think you have to keep going with a pot size bet or else inflating the pot pre-flop was pointless. Although this is further inflating the pot with you oop. The pf raise was the action that really started the ball rolling regarding your committment to this pot when you flopped what you did.

Alot of the trouble hands posted here and hands i find myself in trouble are hands played OOP. I think I read it on the HectorJelly q and a thread that his very basic theory on poker is to play the big pots in position and the small pots out of position.(I read it somewhere here anyway) I've been really trying to apply that to my game and find it very helpful. Certainly less headaches about what to do!

That said KQ is a big enough hand 6 handed maybe..? But if I was to get those cards in the small blind later on tonight i would be keeping it small and be happy to take down a small pot -or surrender a small pot to one of the villians if the full board was a horror show - and move onto the next hand and the button

Also -this is a bit embarrassing but i don't fully understand stats that are posted about villians on threads in general. could someone spell that out for me?

fixer

BobSloane wrote:

Also -this is a bit embarrassing but i don't fully understand stats that are posted about villians on threads in general. could someone spell that out for me?

it comes from Poker Tracker, a data mining tool that chews up your online hand history and gives some statistics about play of you & opponents. If you're a live player, you'll never come across these stats except by intuition and observation.

BobSloane

fixer wrote:

it comes from Poker Tracker, a data mining tool that chews up your online hand history and gives some statistics about play of you & opponents. If you're a live player, you'll never come across these stats except by intuition and observation.

yeah i figured its statistics refering to flops seen or hand %wins or other such stuff. But what specifically i mean. vpip of 40+...? when someone is 22/7 ....this kind of stuff. outside of games with friends i just play partypoker and don't think they have these. or i never noticed them anyway

edit : oh right. you put your hand histories into this pokertracker and it spits out your stats. but how do you get your opponents hand histories unless from a session with you - or is it just adding them as you play? I probably just knocked someone off their seat laughing at these questions lol. But i'm serious

opr

BobSloane wrote:

yeah i figured its statistics refering to flops seen or hand %wins or other such stuff. But what specifically i mean. vpip of 40+...? when someone is 22/7 ....this kind of stuff. outside of games with friends i just play partypoker and don't think they have these. or i never noticed them anyway

Its not the site the shows these statistic's its a 3rd party tool that the player on the site is using such as poker tracker or poker office.

I would stongly recommend downloading one of these as it is an invaluable tool for online poker. You can use these on almost all poker sites including the one you play at party.

Go to

www.pokeroffice.com or www.pokertracker.com

If using pokertracker you will also need to download pahud. Its a free tool and you can get it at.

http://pokeracesoftware.com/hud/

Along with helping your game by showing you what hands are most profitable and least profitable and in what position and loads and loads of other stuff they show you in game statistic's on your opponents based on information the software had gathered on your opponents either while you were playing or mining ( This is when it sits watching tables and just gathers information).

So you can then use this information for instance as fuzz says in one of his post today things such as "Calls Raise" and the % are one of the things you can choose to display.
We can then use this information in situations like for its great seeing sb with 2% and BB with 5% and folded to me on the co/button.

And if its 12% and 15% then I dont have to raise my 45o there I can just pass, safe in the knowledge that these guys are more likely to give action on my AA hands"

The one you refer to is VPIP and this determines what type of player they are preflop. You can also see how many times they have raised preflop using another one of the diplays.

Its something along these lines
VP$IP Rating
> 40% Loose
25% -> 40% Slightly Loose
< 25% Tight


Once you have the software you need to read up on how to use the software below is one of these guides.

http://www.bet-the-pot.com/poker-tracker-part-one-page31.html

Hope this helps you.

Opr

luckylucky

BobSloane wrote:

yeah i figured its statistics refering to flops seen or hand %wins or other such stuff. But what specifically i mean. vpip of 40+...? when someone is 22/7 ....this kind of stuff. outside of games with friends i just play partypoker and don't think they have these. or i never noticed them anyway

edit : oh right. you put your hand histories into this pokertracker and it spits out your stats. but how do you get your opponents hand histories unless from a session with you - or is it just adding them as you play? I probably just knocked someone off their seat laughing at these questions lol. But i'm serious

I'm off to bed now and knackered, but quick synopsis, pokertracker keeps track of every single hand you have played on supported sites which include all the netwrorks, and on some sites, on observed hands that you may not even have played, i.e you just have the table window open, 22/7 means a player voluntarily enters a pot 22% of the time and he raises 7% of the time when he does so, in this case vpip(voluntarily put into pot) is 22.

And pokertracker works with partypoker of course

Any player anyway serious about online poker, should have poker tracker or one of the other ones, i.e poker office, poker manager.

BobSloane

Cheers for clearing that up guys. A huge help.
Sounds like an improvement on my current system of watching the table for ten minutes while smoking a fag before joining with my dozen hands worth of "information" - if you could call it that lol

pok3rplaya

bet

RoundTower

bet and get all in if necessary, sometimes you will lose.

Mr. Flibble

Thanks for the feedback. I felt like I couldn't bet 60 and then easily fold for 70 into a 210 pot so I pushed.
MP called instantly with Qd7d (PT doesn't lie!). CO folded. I wasn't happy doing it and I think that is the only sort of hand that could have called that I was ahead of.