Cullen Introduces (Peak Time) Congestion Charging...

blucey

Another wonderful idea

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/?jp=CWSNKFSNKFMH

Lets all get into our 07 Mercs and fill up those places vacated by the trucks...Oh, wait, they're still there.

Is this man the worst minister, for anything, ever?

Chris_533976

The LUAS operators say it is designed to alleviate rush hour congestion by encouraging people to use the service at different times.

Thats absolute tripe. They're laughing all the way to the bank.

Bards

blucey wrote:

Another wonderful idea

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/?jp=CWSNKFSNKFMH

Lets all get into our 07 Mercs and fill up those places vacated by the trucks...Oh, wait, they're still there.

Is this man the worst minister, for anything, ever?

and what's cullen got to do with a private company charging what they like I don't see his name being mentioned in the report. Did he personally ask the LUAS operator to increase charges. At least Dublin commuters have a choice of different modes of transport not like the rest of the country...

we should be blaming Minister Dempsey and the energy regulator for allowing Bord Gais to increase charges by over 33% and the ESB by 20 something% this impacts us consumers more than Luas Fares going up...

Oh and the Taxi Regulator for pushing up the cost of Taxi's in the consumers interest of course... what a joke

Slice

It's not the best idea and definately the Department of Transport should intervene - but I don't see how it would penalise the most frequent users; anyone who uses Luas on a daily basis would have a weekly/monthly ticket.

seamus

Chris_533976 wrote:

Thats absolute tripe. They're laughing all the way to the bank.

Indeed. "to encourage people to use the service at different times".....

They can't use the service at different times, that's why it's called "Peak Time" you muppets!!

I've never seen a more blatant scheme to milk extra cash out of their busy periods.

markf909

Lads if IE did this there would be war and they would be forced politically to back down.

Doubt that will happen here to be honest.

Bards

London Transport do it... You can't use a daily pass before 09:30 on the Tube (At least that's how it used to be when I lived there)

Tazz T

But you do save money by buying a monthly ticket.

Is there monthly/weekly tickets for the Luas and if so will they be affected?

tba

Smart card users pay the same.... good idea

Mayshine

Its a blatent rip off involving regular fares on a transport netwrok, however according to the indo today it only affects oneway morning fares. Buy a weekly/monthly/smart card/return and it won't affect you.

The amount of people who use the machines to pay each morning is nuts. If these are the type of people dumb enough to buy a return or single each day and tolerate the queuing invlolved and the constant need to have cash rather than pick up a smart card then to be honest they are probably the type of person who will moan a bit and continue to pay it. I guess it is similar to the people who pay 4e a day for quickpark which is about 1k a year when you can park a 5 minute walk away for free.

So to reiterate - This will not affect sensible people, only thick ones. Stop complaining, get a smart card and save some money

The Rail Procurement Agency (RPA) announced yesterday it would increase the one-way morning fare by 10c between 7.45am and 9.30am on weekdays from next Monday.

Other single fares will remain unchanged outside these times.

RPA chief executive Frank Allen said the fare increases would provide a 2.75pc rise in revenue to cover costs and would encourage a switch to the use of SmartCards, where commuters get cheaper fares by bulkbuying travel credit in advance.

The average saving on SmartCards was around 17pc per trip, an RPA spokesperson said.

tba

Now if only universal card systems were implemented

Bards

Tazz T wrote:

But you do save money by buying a monthly ticket.

Is there monthly/weekly tickets for the Luas and if so will they be affected?

http://d2785440.u87.hosting365.ie/ul/48.pdf

Jimoslimos

Yeah London transport have being doing it for years. 10c is actually quite a small difference compared to what you'd pay between peak/non-peak hours in London (about £6 in some cases). Also in London peak hours apply between 4:30-7:00pm so expect to see this introduced in Ireland aswell. Will it make any difference? - Feck all IMO

_Kaiser_

seamus wrote:

Indeed. "to encourage people to use the service at different times".....

They can't use the service at different times, that's why it's called "Peak Time" you muppets!!

I've never seen a more blatant scheme to milk extra cash out of their busy periods.

Damn you beat me to it!

It's not like everyone "chooses" to go to work at the same time. If they want to "encourage people to use the service at different times", maybe they should start by talking to city centre employers about introducing more flexitime or allowing staff to work from home first. :rolleyes:

Of course, this being Ireland, it'll never happen on a widespread basis as there's too many who'd treat it as a "doss day".

Mayshine

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Damn you beat me to it!

It's not like everyone "chooses" to go to work at the same time. If they want to "encourage people to use the service at different times", maybe they should start by talking to city centre employers about introducing more flexitime or allowing staff to work from home first. :rolleyes:

Of course, this being Ireland, it'll never happen on a widespread basis as there's too many who'd treat it as a "doss day".

Can you guys read? - Its only for oneway tickets. If you work in the city, then you will not be buying your tickets in singles (well unless you are completley thick), so it will not affect these people.

Bards

It's to keep the daytrippers off the LUAS and make more room for commuters.. In my mind a very sensible idea

Mucco

There's a letter from Red Ken in today's Gruaniad. He says that only 5% of journeys on London bus + tube are paid in cash. Cash tube fares are exorbitant these days, and they want oyster cards used as much as possible in order to speed up buses. It seems to work. Obviously for the Luas, you pay in advance whether it's a pass or not, so I don't see what this fare increase is all about.

M

AlekSmart

Lets all be perfectly clear here on the issue of Fares.

The Fare structure is the remit and responsibility of the RPA full stop.

Veolia have sod all to do with it and operate Luas on a contractual basis charging what the RPA tells them.

Its a fare increase PERIOD !!

In the timeless tradition of Civil Servant `s everywhere we see once again the spectacle of prepaid tickets ALSO being increased ...("Well Boss dat`s de way we`ve always done it wit de Busses...")

However some PR Puff Daddy has quite correctly spotted that the commuters ire can be deflected from the real issue...(Poor discounting of prepaid/smart tickets) by focusing on a stunt such as this 10c peak premium.

The hook,line and sinker can be heard progressing down along the public gullet already as the Pre-Paid increases get through on-the-nod whilst hissy-fits abound on the issue of the 10c.

IF we had a coherent Public Transport Prioritization Programme then the Govt,through the RPA and CIE would have frozen ALL Pre-Paid or Smart Card public transport charges whilst INCREASING Cash Fares by a serious amount (Certainly much more than 10c).

Perhaps if we can club together for a few copies of the Guardian to be delivered to Kildare St the relevant administrators can read Ken Livingston`s piece and go

"Hmmmmm.....Now lads we have to mind that this oul stuff does`nt catch on here......Next thing they`ll be looking for this fella to do our jobs for us " :eek:

dowlingm

will the people with free travel who just got allowed onto peak services have to pay 10c? That would be a no...

Reyman

This kind of peak travel charging is widespread in the UK. A train ticket could cost you anywhere from £120 down to £ 30 depending on whether you travel at 8.30am or 11.50am.

The joys of privatising transport

Ham'nd'egger

Spot on, Alex.

There is a far greater issue on this than a mere 10cent on a fare as you say. If the multi use cards are to be promoted, then, as you say, you either chop down it's price and look after the regulars or you skin the once off travellers (Such as me as I almost never use the LUAS). All they have done is serve up the issue differently.

MiniD

I can't say I agree with this at all. You're punishing those who need to travel to work at peak times, yet social welfare pass users can still block up the tram.
The service is overcrowded and it is not uncommon to have 2 or 3 trams pass full before you can get on. yet we should be paying extra for this bad service?

It might only seem like 10 cent, but for a daily user it's €50 per year. Remember, Dublin Bus services were cut back because of Luas, and it's a lot cheaper to get the bus than it is now to use Luas.

AlekSmart

Now Now Now....MiniD....How could you be so Heartless ? :eek:

We live in an inclusive society (Ask S Brennan).

The Dept of Social Welfare Pass Holders are in fact CUSTOMERS just like YOU.
Just because they are "Unable to provide for their own Public Transport requirements" does not mean they cannot use their pass to get to work,does it ?

The Poor and Downtrodden have every right to use the Luas even if they are not paying for it and you should be appreciative of that :mad:

Mind you,If all 600,000 DSW Free Pass Holders decide to "Try Out" the Luas some morning then YOU really are Fcuk`d....

Slice

It's a shame that people are being discouraged from using public transport when it's part of the the Government's Transport21 plan to actually increase use of public transport.

Enigma365

Who is going to delay taking a luas just to save 10c? Thats the bit that I don't get.

Tarabuses

Reyman wrote:

The joys of privatising transport

But it is the RPA that is increasing the fare not Veolia.

patrickc

where can u park 5 mins from redcow for free?

HelterSkelter

The LUAS operators say it is designed to alleviate rush hour congestion by encouraging people to use the service at different times.

So why not REDUCE the fare at off-peak times instead then?

HelterSkelter

patrickc2006 wrote:

where can u park 5 mins from redcow for free?

I know a great spot but I'm not telling you!!

shltter

I have a question

Where are all the LUAS fanboys who are so quick to tell us how great the RPA and the LUAS is ????


BTW I agree cash fares should be put through the roof but only after we have integrated ticketing.

MiniD

I tried ringing Luas customer service today to find out more as to why they felt the need to increase the fare at peak hours. Amazingly, the customer service staff could not explain why the increase was being applied, he explained that the fares were controlled by RPA. I asked that even as Luas customer service he should have some information, but he transfered me to the RPA where I was met with an answering machine.

We are constantly being told in this age of Rip-Off Republic to challenge these price increases, so maybe if enough people complain they might just listen.

It's nothing short of a disgrace. When the service is improved and passengers have a choice of integrated ticketing, then I'll agree with an increase.

A Dub in Glasgo

I think it is obvious why they are increasing the fare. The Luas is congested during those hours, it is a mechanism to try and get 'off-peak' passengers off 'peak' services. It is in widespread use here in the UK.

Unless people believe in magic, a fixed capacity network cannot handle continued over capacity. The only way to deal with the issue is to try and reduce the numbers or build extra capacity (or a combination of both).

This pricing mechanism is used quite extensively in the airline industry. Did you know that an early morning flight from Glasgow to London and returning in the evening will cost about €550?! A mid day out to midday return will cost in the region of €90.

MiniD

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I think it is obvious why they are increasing the fare. The Luas is congested during those hours, it is a mechanism to try and get 'off-peak' passengers off 'peak' services. It is in widespread use here in the UK.

Unless people believe in magic, a fixed capacity network cannot handle continued over capacity. The only way to deal with the issue is to try and reduce the numbers or build extra capacity (or a combination of both).

This pricing mechanism is used quite extensively in the airline industry. Did you know that an early morning flight from Glasgow to London and returning in the evening will cost about €550?! A mid day out to midday return will cost in the region of €90.

I don't disagree with the principal, but I believe the service should match the price. When you book that peak time airline ticket you're guaranteed of getting on the plane, but the chances of getting on the tram can be very slim depending on where you board. In some parts of the city the bus service has been reduced or in some cases withdrawn because of Luas, so many people don't have that choice.

Lets be realistic here, people will not change their journey times by 2 hours for the sake of 10 cent, but the RPA will raise the fare anyway.

Last summer we read how Luas was ahead of itself in profit and it was a financial success (why wouldn't it be with full trams) so I don't really see the need for this extra 10 cent.

The link below is a news article from June 2006 which speaks of the profits being made. It also mentions how the Red Line should have a 40% increase in capacity in Spring of this year. Does anybody know if we're on target to have the extensions in place on red line trams by then?

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/?jp=CWGBEYMHKFGB

lostexpectation

Mucco wrote:

There's a letter from Red Ken in today's Gruaniad. He says that only 5% of journeys on London bus + tube are paid in cash. Cash tube fares are exorbitant these days, and they want oyster cards used as much as possible in order to speed up buses. It seems to work. Obviously for the Luas, you pay in advance whether it's a pass or not, so I don't see what this fare increase is all about.

M

ah yes oyster cards , so they keep track of when brazilians use the tube

dowlingm

where's Eddie Hobbs when he's wanted to deal with this ripoff?

Victor

HelterSkelter wrote:

patrickc2006 wrote:

where can u park 5 mins from redcow for free?

I know a great spot but I'm not telling you!!

M50.

MiniD wrote:

It's nothing short of a disgrace. When the service is improved and passengers have a choice of integrated ticketing, then I'll agree with an increase.

And what will your complaint be then? Services are being improve with higher frequencies and longer trams.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/?jp=CWGBEYMHKFGB

“We have already introduced additional services at morning peak hours and from September next a four minute frequency on the Green Line will be introduced,” he said.

HelterSkelter wrote:

So why not REDUCE the fare at off-peak times instead then?

Its the same thing.

shltter

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I think it is obvious why they are increasing the fare. The Luas is congested during those hours, it is a mechanism to try and get 'off-peak' passengers off 'peak' services. It is in widespread use here in the UK.

Unless people believe in magic, a fixed capacity network cannot handle continued over capacity. The only way to deal with the issue is to try and reduce the numbers or build extra capacity (or a combination of both).

This pricing mechanism is used quite extensively in the airline industry. Did you know that an early morning flight from Glasgow to London and returning in the evening will cost about €550?! A mid day out to midday return will cost in the region of €90.

Be serious No one is going to delay their journey to save 10 cent

It is just about scalping people for as much as possible during the busiest time on a system that is already profitable.

99% of people travelling on this system during this time cannot delay their journey they have to travel to get to work even if they did want to get to work.


What it does show is the rigidity of the tram based system extra capacity is expensive and slow and cumbersome to roll out. This was why they ripped up the tram tracks before.

Why are they planning on extending these lines anywhere else when they cannot cope with the areas they are supposed to be servicing now.

There should be no more on street trams put the money into building a proper high capacity underground.

_Kaiser_

shltter wrote:

Be serious No one is going to delay their journey to save 10 cent

It is just about scalping people for as much as possible during the busiest time on a system that is already profitable.

99% of people travelling on this system during this time cannot delay their journey they have to travel to get to work even if they did want to get to work.


What it does show is the rigidity of the tram based system extra capacity is expensive and slow and cumbersome to roll out. This was why they ripped up the tram tracks before.

Why are they planning on extending these lines anywhere else when they cannot cope with the areas they are supposed to be servicing now.

There should be no more on street trams put the money into building a proper high capacity underground.

Oh my god... for once I'm in complete agreement with Shltter!! :eek:

AlekSmart

I think the common thread that even the warring factions on this board can see is the Total lack of any cohesive or integrated planning in relation to Public Transport.

Successive Ministers have presided over Departmental whims and wiles which usually depend upon the leanings of the Senior Departmental Secretary in place at that time.

Luas as it is presently configured is testimony to negligence on a massive scale.

Dublins Dart and Commuter Rail is in a similar mess with nonsensical PR Puffery telling us "We`re getting there"...True indeed but nearly 100 years late !!

Dublin Bus,Bus Eireann AND the multitude continue to flap around in disjointed attempts to stick fingers in leaky dykes (!!)

There appears to be little official enthusiasm for getting the Basics right initially and then fine tuning the systems to maximise their utilization.

The catch cry of the Official Transport Tsars will always be "The Next BIG Project"....whether that be Trams,Trains,Tri-Axled Buses,Tunnels or Free Beer and Crisps.

This lack of focus is what results from a very dubious system of Governance indeed which has seen this state progress unsteadily under the tutelage of a close knit collection of criminal and semi-criminal shysters.

NOw...when IS the next General Election ?? :cool:

cast_iron

shltter wrote:

Be serious No one is going to delay their journey to save 10 cent

On the face of it, it's hard to argue against that. No commuter will delay. But no commuter will be buying a one-way ticket.
Who this may effect is, say, the morning shopper - they may say "I'll hold off on heading into town for an hour" - because they can! 10c is f*ck all, but who wants to get stung for it when they don't have to. It's about attitudes. I know I always only pay the €1.35 instead of the €1.55 when I can.

shltter wrote:

99% of people travelling on this system during this time cannot delay their journey they have to travel to get to work even if they did want to get to work.

This doesn't apply to them at all. According to your figure, just <1% of people
will be affected.

shltter

cast_iron wrote:

On the face of it, it's hard to argue against that. No commuter will delay. But no commuter will be buying a one-way ticket.
Who this may effect is, say, the morning shopper - they may say "I'll hold off on heading into town for an hour" - because they can! 10c is f*ck all, but who wants to get stung for it when they don't have to. It's about attitudes. I know I always only pay the €1.35 instead of the €1.55 when I can.

Well in my experience 10 cents will not put anyone of travelling for an hour considering the number of people who walk away without change tickets far in excess of 10 cents I can not see queues forming at Luas stops waiting for the cheaper journey.
10 cent is **** all and the RPA know it will not put anyone of travelling it will only scalp a few extra bob off people who have no choice.

cast_iron wrote:

This doesn't apply to them at all. According to your figure, just <1% of people
will be affected.

What are you talking about I said 99% of those travelling on the LUAS at peak time have no choice but to travel at those times and the 1% that may have some leeway in their journey time will not be put off by the 10 cents. As such it will have no effect on overcrowding and merely make people who are already crammed into luas trams pay an extra 10 cents for the discomfort.

shltter

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

This pricing mechanism is used quite extensively in the airline industry. Did you know that an early morning flight from Glasgow to London and returning in the evening will cost about €550?! A mid day out to midday return will cost in the region of €90.

Yes people will delay travel if they can to save €450 on a flight but I find it hard to believe that people will organise flexi time with their employer to save 10 cents.

cast_iron

shltter wrote:

What are you talking about I said 99% of those travelling on the LUAS at peak time have no choice but to travel at those times and the 1% that may have some leeway in their journey time will not be put off by the 10 cents. As such it will have no effect on overcrowding and merely make people who are already crammed into luas trams pay an extra 10 cents for the discomfort.

And what I said is that this 99% you speak of will not be affected, as they will not be purchasing 1-way tickets in the mornings. They will have daily/weekly/monthly tickets which won't be affected by the increase.

Sadly, in practice, I also feel that the 10c is not really a deterrent to many.
Though 30 or 40 cent and there would be uproar...

Metrobest

shltter wrote:

Yes people will delay travel if they can to save €450 on a flight but I find it hard to believe that people will organise flexi time with their employer to save 10 cents.

Shutter's reaction is predictably over the top. The RPA aren't scalping anybody. This ten cents surcharge for peak-hour travel is easily avoided by

1. Buying a weekly ticket (this is what most regular commuters do. The luas price structure is very simple - if you're making more than four return journeys in week you're better off on a weekly. The same is not true for Dublin Bus and that's why so many Dublin Bus passengers still pay cash.)

2. A Smart Card. No need to buy tickets at the machine each time and fares are always cheaper.

3. Avoid peak time. Less congestion for everybody, cheaper journey for you.

Unlike CIE, the Luas isn't fleecing its customers. It's giving them a choice, the financial incentive to switch to more efficient ways of payments, which benefits everyone in the long run. People need an incentive. Look at the plastic bag tax. Suddenly people realised they didn't need as many plastic bags! The same is true for a lot of people who travel in the rush hour. They don't need to - they do it because there's no incentive not to.

Peak time surcharges are common across the transport sector worldwide. In Sydney, for example, it's about 50% on a day return in on the cityrail system. And in an incentive to cut down on morningtime queues, if you buy your weekly ticket after 3pm it's valid an extra day. That's something the RPA could look at for luas.

Seth Brundle

Metrobest wrote:

The RPA aren't scalping anybody. This ten cents surcharge for peak-hour travel is easily avoided by
<snip>
Peak time surcharges are common across the transport sector worldwide. In Sydney, for example, it's about 50% on a day return in on the cityrail system.

It certainly appears like scalping!
As a disincentive throwing 10c is not punitive enough. Maybe if they stuck on another 50% like your Sydney reference then it would have an effect but come on, 10c?
Anyhow, surely trying anything to discourage anyone from using a form of public transport is counter productive? Given that it is supposed to be profitable (according to another post here) why can they not get more trams asap?

mickoneill30

All this thread over 10c. Or €1 a week. How about you cut out one coffee every 2 or 3 weeks to help pay for it and you'll be healthier too. Or for the smokers cut down by one box every 6 or 7 weeks. Get a bit of perspective. If I was on minimum wage (I'm not and I'd presume most board.ie members aren't) I would have earned 14c in the time it took me to type this (say 1 minute).

Seth Brundle

mickoneill30 wrote:

All this thread over 10c. Or €1 a week. How about you cut out one coffee every 2 or 3 weeks to help pay for it and you'll be healthier too. Or for the smokers cut down by one box every 6 or 7 weeks. Get a bit of perspective. If I was on minimum wage (I'm not and I'd presume most board.ie members aren't) I would have earned 14c in the time it took me to type this (say 1 minute).

Thats not the point. They are raising prices allegedly as a means to put people off using a form of public transport but the increase that they are applying isn't strong enough to have an effect. In other words they are just trying to make money!

_Kaiser_

Metrobest wrote:

1. Buying a weekly ticket (this is what most regular commuters do. The luas price structure is very simple - if you're making more than four return journeys in week you're better off on a weekly. The same is not true for Dublin Bus and that's why so many Dublin Bus passengers still pay cash.)

This is where the crux of the issue is. How this increase should be interpreted, and how many people it'll affect, depends on how many users actually DO buy weekly tickets vs pay cash fares on LUAS.

Victor

I imagine this is as much about the ticket machines as it is about the tram congestion and the amount of money. If this encourages people to think before they buy their single ticket, then so much the better.

I suspect, but don't don't that the RPA asked for a larger increase, but it just got chopped by the department.

kbannon wrote:

why can they not get more trams asap?

Because you can't just magic trams out of thin air. I imagine the lead time is in the order of a year.

Seth Brundle

Victor wrote:

Because you can't just magic trams out of thin air. I imagine the lead time is in the order of a year.

True but if veolia are watching the figures (as you would think they would) then they ould have planned ahead instead of suddenly realising that they may need to discourage passenger rising numbers

Victor

kbannon wrote:

True but if veolia are watching the figures (as you would think they would) then they ould have planned ahead instead of suddenly realising that they may need to discourage passenger rising numbers

Veolia don't own the trams and don't set the fares. Thats the RPA's job.

Additional tram sections are on order for the Red Line and there may be a further order for new trams for A1/B1/BX/C1.