Bad player or bad dealer?

jacQues

So I was in a casino (not in Galway btw). It doesn't matter much which one, as I would like to know which person was in the wrong; me or the dealer? Situation:

1/2 no-limit cash game, buy-in of 200 to 500 euro. On my right is an unspecified player. I'm not sure if he's just started playing, is plain stupid or is playing the way he is on purpose. In any case he is annoying some other players by thinking a long time. Not me mind you, since his slowness comes with a good tell. In any case, he's worked his way up to about 850 euro.

A decent player with about 900 raises pre-flop to 100, he calls. The flop comes but is not important for my question. The player bets 200, and this guy raises to 500. The player moves all-in and this guy starts to do his thing. After about 15 seconds the dealer says "30 seconds". Now I'm not in the hand and asked the dealer the previous hand, when a simular thing happened "What player put the clock on him?" I didn't get a reply then and (because of the pot-size) the guy himself complains that he needs time to think. The dealer then informs him that he's slowing the whole game down and therefore a 30-second rule has been instated by the dealer. He was indeed slowing the game down and this rule seems to be one of the casino. I felt a bit let down by the dealer as he could have told this the previous hand when I asked about the clock. Such a rule is not really standard IMHO.

The player continues to complain and the dealer then goes "Look, everyone here pays good money to play and you're slowing everything down. You have 500 in the pot already and its only another 250 more to call..." I was gobsmacked and opened my mouth yet again while not in the hand:
me: You cannot say that!
I am the dealer.
me: Yes, but you cannot say that!
(holds up his right hand to me in "stop-sign" mode) Talk to the hand.
me: (now totally bewildered) What hand?

I stood up, told another employee who was watching my concerns. This was a floor person and not a dealer. He went like "the dealer knows what to do" or something. I finished that orbit and then left. I normally tip about 20 euro (if I'm up, that is) when I leave instead of "a buck for every won hand". I didn't since tip that time because of that incident.

Thinking back on it. Maybe that floorperson was right? Was I wrong to open my big mouth while not in the hand or was it what I thought it was: a very bad dealer who shouldn't work in a classy casino?

jacQues

bohsman

You were 100% in the right. In some ways Id prefer if regulations similar to England came in. Name and shame the casino so that I and anyone else interested will know to avoid.

5starpool

Absolutely. Let us know where not to play cash games.

jacQues

They refreshed the dealer every 40 minutes or so. The other dealers were fine. Actually, one (from South Africa) was excellent! Just this one dealer was bad. Surely you cannot judge an entire classy casino because of one dealer?

jacQues

5starpool

You can if the floorperson gives free reign to the dealer to act as they see fit in a matter this important. If there had been complaints made about this player and the dealer on foot of these complaints had requested that this person speed up then I am sure this may not have occurred in this manner.

The dealer has no discretion to act in this matter.

bohsman

And even if someone had called clock on him the "talk to the hand" comment is out of order. As is the you've x in its only x more. I dont care if its the fanciest casino in the world, not a hope Id play there.

Ollieboy

Just a quick question guys:

1. can you call for a clock in cash games?

and if yes, than the dealer can call the clock also, was my understanding, which I thought was always a minute.

Everything else seem totally out of other etc.

Scouser in Dub

jacQues wrote:

You have 500 in the pot already and its only another 250 more to call..."

Thats nuts, and wrong by €100 though I have said that to someone before as the person wanting the call

jacQues

My question was whether its correct as a player to interfere with the game while not in the hand, considerering obvious restrictions. Also the question whether the dealer was correct or not.

Judgeing by the replies so far, I was right in both assumptions.

As to the situation, complaints were made about this player to the dealer. By half the table actually. I didn't complain because of the tell. The dealer invoked a 30-seconds rule because of these complaints. I have no problems here. A minor problem I have is the fact that the dealer didn't answer my question (I assume because I wasn't in the hand) to this odd house rule they have. But the major problem I have is the fact that the dealer gave the player advice in the hand. Without saying "pot odds" the dealer adviced the player on how to continue in the hand. The dealer did not state facts upon request, he volunteered to state the hand situation in a player's fashion.

jacQues

Spondulick

You should name and shame! That is totally bad ettiquite from the dealer. Ok fair enough explaining to the player that hes holding everything up, but commenting on the hand by saying how much he was committed to the pot and how much it was to call is just bad form. I for one would like to know where this happened as i play mainly live games.

jacQues

Scouser in Dub wrote:

Thats nuts, and wrong by €100 though I have said that to someone before as the person wanting the call

The dealer stated the money correctly AFAIK. I must have made a mistake with the starting stacks.

bohsman

Ollieboy wrote:

Just a quick question guys:

1. can you call for a clock in cash games?

and if yes, than the dealer can call the clock also, was my understanding, which I thought was always a minute.

Everything else seem totally out of other etc.

Players can call clock in cash games and tournaments, dealers are not allowed to call clock. Other than calling a floorperson over to count down the minute as dealers are not allowed wear watches either.

Scouser in Dub

jacQues wrote:

The dealer stated the money correctly AFAIK. I must have made a mistake with the starting stacks.

was just taking the proverbial

anyway results?

jacQues

bohsman wrote:

Other than calling a floorperson over to count down the minute as dealers are not allowed wear watches either.

I didn't know that. This dealer was wearing a watch and using it.

As for the "name and shame" part. I did not tell the management of this casino about it. I was too upset and simply left. The person I did tell could be management but could also be a bouncer. I play there maybe twice a year so I cannot tell. In light of this I feel that I'll have to withold the name of the casino for now. I can tell that the dealer in question had the nickname "Eggy", this is what most players called him and he saw no offence in that name.

jacQues

JoeyJJ

I'd say you were spot on to question the dealers questionable behaviour.

Came accross a dealer at xmas she twice giving the pot to my opponent until I corrected her, and once I had won with A high flush and took down a nice pot, I still tipped her a couple of euro and when I was stacking the chips she said "Only 3 euro for a nice pot like that." She had an air of superiority around her even though she made lots of mistakes. I was pissed off as I was the biggest tipper at the table.

bohsman

The watch thing is British regulations and is largely ignored here along with dealers not being allowed have trouser pockets. As it stands here casinos can make up whatever rules they like.

span

bohsman wrote:

The watch thing is British regulations and is largely ignored here along with dealers not being allowed have trouser pockets. As it stands here casinos can make up whatever rules they like.

why would you not be allowed have trouser pockets?

Killme00

bohsman wrote:

dealers are not allowed wear watches either.

I was wondering about that...why?

bohsman

Casinos dont trust dealers or anyone else for that matter, its so you dont slip chips into your pockets or somehow between your arm and watch. English regulations are a bit excessive but would be better than the current situation.

baker1

No pockects so that chips cannot be concealed and passed to an associate later, I believe.

JoeyJJ

Pockets may be to do with thieft. Although it would be hard to steal at a cash table maybe more easier at other house games.

It would also mean the dealer wouldn't be able to take their personal cash on the casino floor. So if there were ever search they should have 0 cash on board.

DeVore

wow... if a dealer told me to "talk to the hand" I'd talk to the boss instead. I can't imagine what Luke would say or any other floor manager for that matter.

Afaik, only a player can call clock. Any player at the table (in the hand or not) can call it but the dealer certainly cant. They are paid by the hour, if the table is happy to sit there for 30 minutes waiting for someone to decide thats their perogative. If one of them isnt happy, then they can call clock.

Commenting on how much they have in and saying "only X to call sure" is just blatant bad training.

As for tipping, I know I've posted here before about tipping. Tipping a dealer is good ettiquette for reasons we discussed etc... but if a dealer picked up a 3 euro tip of mine and turn their nose up at it, it would be the last tip they got from me that night. Jesus, thats just unbelievable. *boggle*

DeV.

kincsem

This is an exciting thread

What was the tell?

Any more info on the secret world of dealers?

nicryan

jacQues, I'd say phone the casino and talk to the card room manager and explain the situation and name the dealer to them. Also mention the reason why you're calling now and not bringing it up on the night.


Nic

RoundTower

Hurrying up slow players is a part of the job. The dealer can't tell someone "you have 30 seconds or your hand is dead" but telling the player something like "I want you to act in 30 seconds, you're slowing down the game" is OK.

The "talk to the hand" thing, the telling him it's "only 250 more", and the floorman's behaviour are completely out of order, I wouldn't play there.

bops

jacQues wrote:

...I can tell that the dealer in question had the nickname "Eggy", this is what most players called him and he saw no offence in that name.

jacQues

In the South East ????

DeVore

RT: "I want you to act in 30 seconds, you're slowing down the game"

Or what?

A dealer has no business saying this in a cash game imho.

A gentle reminder that its "up to them" is fine after a minute or two in case players are too embarrassed to call clock but its not for the dealer to pressurise any player, especially if its a big call etc.

DeV.

phantom_lord

There's no way I'd put up that. A dealer in drogheda put me on clock himself at least 2/3times when I was facing difficult calls in big pots, needless to say I don't play there much anymore.

RoundTower

DeVore wrote:

RT: "I want you to act in 30 seconds, you're slowing down the game"

Or what?

A dealer has no business saying this in a cash game imho.

A gentle reminder that its "up to them" is fine after a minute or two in case players are too embarrassed to call clock but its not for the dealer to pressurise any player, especially if its a big call etc.

DeV.

It's a bit rude for a player to tell someone else to hurry up, or to call the clock. It's the dealer's job to make the game run fast and smoothly.

I don't think you understand how long "a minute or two" is in a poker game. If the player hasn't acted or may not realise it's on them, then the dealer should remind them after 10 seconds or so, not after a minute. If the player is consistently slowing down the game then I think it's a good idea for the dealer to tell them "I'd like you to act in 30 seconds to keep the game going" or similar, just to send the message that it's not OK for a player to sit and think all day.

RoundTower

9 times out of 10 it's not about the dealer "pressurising" the player into rushing a "big call", it's just about getting the player used to acting a bit faster.

DeVore

The occasional well up for a big call shouldn't be hassled by a dealer after 10 seconds.

You didnt answer the question I asked "Or what?". What will the dealer do if he doesnt?

DeV.

fixer

RoundTower wrote:

I don't think you understand how long "a minute or two" is in a poker game.

what kind of poker does DeVore play where he doesn't understand how long a minute or two really is?

Caboose

a good dealer can move a game along nicely without telling someone to hurry up or threatening them. In this case a good dealer should be seen and not heard.






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:eek:

horsebokks

the dealer should have dealt with the issues at the end of the hand b4 the next shuffle took place & not slap bang in the middle of the hand

bops

...if i'm right about the game being in the south east - i know the dealer and he is quite good...unfortunately he does have a tendency to snap like the above - but i really wouldn't blame him considering what he has to put up with at the table - the casio in question (if i'm right) has a free bar, also it may be worth mentioning that the floor manager has not got a clue.

You try and deal at a table on fri/sat night when 8/10 players (if you could call them that) are completely sh*tfaced.

Also he isn't irish (surprise surprise) and would have difficulty trying to control a table full of pissed clowns.

I'm not saying that he wasn't 100% out of line, i'm just filling in a couple of blanks for you.

RoundTower

DeVore wrote:

The occasional well up for a big call shouldn't be hassled by a dealer after 10 seconds.

You didnt answer the question I asked "Or what?". What will the dealer do if he doesnt?

DeV.

"or what?" has nothing to do with it. The dealer shouldn't be threatening anyone, just making it clear what is an appropriate amount of time to act.

max_power

Are pocketless trousers easy to come by? Is there a dealer clothing shop somewhere?

I'm bored and supposed to be studying, reading this is more fun though.

Also just out of curiosity, if a player calls clock is the dealer obliged to aknowledge it?

bohsman

Im sure its easy enough to sow up your own pockets.
Yes the dealer has to aknowledge a player calling clock. Again these are common rules, they dont apply to clubs where people who dont have a clue think it would be a good idea to open a poker room and invent things as they go along. Seems to be whats happening around the country at the mo.

max_power

bohsman wrote:

Im sure its easy enough to sow up your own pockets.

Haha good point.

NickyOD

Where the hell was this?

DeVore

bohsman wrote:

Im sure its easy enough to sow up your own pockets.
Yes the dealer has to aknowledge a player calling clock. Again these are common rules, they dont apply to clubs where people who dont have a clue think it would be a good idea to open a poker room and invent things as they go along. Seems to be whats happening around the country at the mo.

QFT.