am i tilting?

peeko

Villain is 22/16 and has been raising my blinds all night, and has lost most of his stack with a bit of an idiot move. my image is TA

Full Tilt Poker Game #1526140691: Table Durango (6 max) - $0.50/$1 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:32:10 ET - 2007/01/03
Seat 1: donutsp ($209.85)
Seat 2: koolkat25 ($37.70)
Seat 3: cbboy ($100)
Seat 4: Perk76 ($103.85)
Seat 5: hero ($72.40)
Seat 6: rms3124 ($70.65)
Perk76 posts the small blind of $0.50
hero posts the big blind of $1
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hero [Jh Kh]
rms3124 folds
donutsp folds
koolkat25 raises to $3.50
Perk76 folds
hero calls $2.50
*** FLOP *** [2s Js Th]
hero checks (is this real bad? I figured him for a continuation bet)
koolkat25 bets $34.20, and is all in
hero calls $34.20
koolkat25 shows [Ks Qs]
hero shows [Jh Kh]
*** TURN *** [2s Js Th] [4d]
*** RIVER *** [2s Js Th 4d] [7s]
koolkat25 shows a flush, King high
hero shows a pair of Jacks
koolkat25 wins the pot ($72.90) with a flush, King high
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $75.90 | Rake $3
Board: [2s Js Th 4d 7s]
Seat 1: donutsp didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: koolkat25 (button) showed [Ks Qs] and won ($72.90) with a flush, King high
Seat 3: cbboy is sitting out
Seat 4: Perk76 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: hero (big blind) showed [Jh Kh] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 6: rms3124 didn't bet (folded)

BobSloane

Did you figure him for that kind of continuation bet? If so were you prepared in advance for a call on a J high flop which was realisticaly as good if you could hope for as K high would have been much worse more hands have you beat?

If not you should have bet the flop to see where you were at. He's probably pushing anyway as he's loose and sees himself with 15 outs - possibly putting you on AJ if you had bet. As it is - its 50/50. With the pot odds its a good call and he sucked out.

If you based your call on what kind of hand you had him on(ie was he shown in the past to shove draws in similar situations) and the way he was playing then I wouldn't call it tilt. AJ is a big worry here though

Edit : sorry i misread the flop there. Didn't think there was a 10. Thats a tilty call. You're in trouble against too many of his likely drawing hands, where although you are ahead are still an underdog. His likely pushing drawing hands are QTs,QKs,AKs, KTs,K9s,ATs AQs. And AJ has you crushed. Bad call. You're only about 50/50 against the weaker possible drawing hands such as AXs. As it turns out he's on an 18 out draw which is horrific for you - and you could have faced AJ which is even worse

robinlacey

fold preflop,as played though you have to call

opr

I usually fold preflop. I don't mind calling with the likes of KJ if stacks are deeper and if you can lay down TP when things get hot.

Opr

RasTa

Jesus, thats some overbet for such a pretty flop.

BobSloane

I was thinking about this hand or just this situation in general today and feel now that it was a terrible call - not just a bad one. One of the classic scenarios in holdem is considered AK v QQ pre flop - all in - race. Kind of a nobody did anything wrong etc. This is particularly true in a tournament situation - nobody really wants to be all-in pf with those hands pre-flop in a cash game though...or maybe they do?? I dont anyway

The second classic scenario is a much more intelligent and informed race that takes place on the flop. At this point players know 5/7 of their cards instead of 2/7. This is the Big hand v the big draw race. I think the reason you see a player who is outclassed playing his hands heavy pre-flop is because he doesn't want to make monumental errors like this on the flop.

Your hand was essentially the big hand side of this battle - except it wasn't very big. The big hands in this scenario are JJ,TT,22,JT,AA,KK,QQ,AJ (i'll discount J2 or T2). Your KJ still is nowhere to be seen on the big hand ladder. Basically if this hand is not big hand v big draw but actually big hand v bigger hand....well you're screwed. You call his bet hoping he's on a draw, or best case scenario the unlikely QJ. He's on a draw and still a reasonable favourite to win. The absolute minimum I think you can justifiably call this bet with is AJ.

Forget about the times you made a call like this and villian showed 9T or the like. Making these calls is bringing yourself down to their level.

kebabfest

Dont think your play was too bad apart from the original call.
Against really loose players you should tighten your game up.

Once the flop comes and judging why the the way he had been playing he could have made that ALL-IN manoever on a quite a large range of hand( a lot of which you are beating)

luckylucky

kebabfest wrote:

Dont think your play was too bad apart from the original call.
Against really loose players you should tighten your game up.

Once the flop comes and judging why the the way he had been playing he could have made that ALL-IN manoever on a quite a large range of hand( a lot of which you are beating)

I think his call pre-flop was fine, if you're not going to make a stand with a hand like Kjs against a loose player in late position then what hands do you do make a stand with, and why should you let a loose player totally run over you!

If anything his play was bad after the flop
True KJs is a trouble hand, but if your savvy enough you can get away from it, unfortunately our peeko didn't manage to do this time, but i'm sure he will the next.

peeko

I called thinking I could get away from it if things got a bit steamy, but the massive all in bet stank of something to me. I was deffo tilting when I made the call though.

If I knew he had either KQo or just the FD would it have been worth calling?

luckylucky

peeko wrote:

I called thinking I could get away from it if things got a bit steamy, but the massive all in bet stank of something to me. I was deffo tilting when I made the call though.

If I knew he had either KQo or just the FD would it have been worth calling?

Yes, if you knew

fuzzbox

luckylucky wrote:

I think his call pre-flop was fine, if you're not going to make a stand with a hand like Kjs against a loose player in late position then what hands do you do make a stand with, and why should you let a loose player totally run over you!

If anything his play was bad after the flop
True KJs is a trouble hand, but if your savvy enough you can get away from it, unfortunately our peeko didn't manage to do this time, but i'm sure he will the next.

but peeko had the best hand on the flop????
And he would have been incorrect to fold ???

why would he want to get away?

wp I say.

robinlacey

BobSloane wrote:

Forget about the times you made a call like this and villian showed 9T or the like. Making these calls is bringing yourself down to their level.

this is bad reasoning

poker isn't about proving yourself to be "above" the bad players,its about winning their money...all "the times you call and villain shows 9T or the like" make up a part of his range,and in a game of incomplete information choosing to ignore some information is madness...

either you think you are ahead of his range or you think you are not
i personally think at these stakes the op is definitely ahead of his range,therefore he should call...

robinlacey

luckylucky wrote:

I think his call pre-flop was fine, if you're not going to make a stand with a hand like Kjs against a loose player in late position then what hands do you do make a stand with, and why should you let a loose player totally run over you!
.

if you feel this way you should reraise preflop,calling out of position is the worst option,either raising or folding is much much better

valor

fold this hand preflop, generally but especially given stacks

i would call flop

BobSloane

robinlacey wrote:

this is bad reasoning

poker isn't about proving yourself to be "above" the bad players,its about winning their money...all "the times you call and villain shows 9T or the like" make up a part of his range,and in a game of incomplete information choosing to ignore some information is madness...

either you think you are ahead of his range or you think you are not
i personally think at these stakes the op is definitely ahead of his range,therefore he should call...

Sorry when I said "villian" I meant random villian when you made a similar call - not this particular one. Not that it makes much differance I suppose. I still think its a bad call here though. If there is a player pushing a lot of hands preflop is it correct to call in the BB with 66? You could be miles ahead, could be miles behind or are most likely facing a coinflip. I see this as similar - although i seem to be alone there lol

Although if he's raising your blinds constantly maybe it is a correct call to make a stand. Ugh. I'm leaning the other way now. Point taken robin.

I wish people wouldn't post hand outcomes in the original post as its more difficult to really put yourself in their shoes.

robinlacey

i think you are misunderstanding me bob-first of all i am also talking about how to play against a generic villain fitting the above description,not this guy in particular...

also,i do think he should have folded preflop,i just think that as he played the hand he should call

BobSloane

robinlacey wrote:

i think you are misunderstanding me bob-first of all i am also talking about how to play against a generic villain fitting the above description,not this guy in particular...

also,i do think he should have folded preflop,i just think that as he played the hand he should call

I think i finally understand now. Basically that its +ev to call as his range is wider than i'm giving him credit for.

If the hand was played out in a more civilised manner after Hero checks the flop ie something like this

Villian bets 1/2 pot
Hero ...? calls at least - maybe raises but will then face the push decision.

Turn - irrelevant card.

Hero - difficult decision. Bet or check. A bet is getting called due to the big draw. A check will probably be checked behind.
Villian - acts appropriately to heros' action

River - spade.
Hero.....? scare card. cant bet. checks.
Villian bets as he now has made his hand
Hero....folds or makes a brave bad call

So does this mean the overall mistake is calling with KJ oop? Or is there a mistake here at all by Hero as played? I donk off a share of money oop and sometimes try to look at my hands after saying what could have been different if i had done this or that?
Should hero have bet that flop, put him on a draw if he just called and tried to price him out on the turn? Or is this just suicidal(generically speaking!)?

Sorry for hijacking your thread peeko. This hand is interesting to me

robinlacey

rushing out the door but yeah i think the main mistake is cold calling with KJ oop

i think every player would make more money if they never cold called a raise preflop out of position,except sometimes with pocket pairs when you're getting good set odds

luckylucky

robinlacey wrote:

if you feel this way you should reraise preflop,calling out of position is the worst option,either raising or folding is much much better

I definitely think re-raising pre-flop is not an option to be dismissed. And don't get me wrong I play poker aggressively, probably too much tbh, and I know the typical advise is fold, raise, call in that order, but sometimes you can pick the last option and see what happens oin the flop, especially if peeko is a superior player to his opponent, which I have no doubt he is .

I think as others have suggestted he may have been better off betting out on the flop to find out where he was at.

The one other thing that comes to mind, is I think all the advice here is so villian dependent.

I mean if villain is a total maniac every way he played the hand was fine imo.
I thnink the villain is aggressive by the sound of things but not a maniac, so as others have said, best case likely scenario for peeko is villain is on a decent draw and if he has axs it's more or less a coin flip.

Anyway it is an intriguing hand as Bobsloane says and can see why there are varying opinions on it.