The Last Stand?

daveirl

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davyjose

daveirl wrote:

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Apparently there was plans for Munster to play Connacht in the earlier game, and Leinster to play in the evening, but Leinster didn't want Munster fans taking over - it's a sad fact. i stood in Lansdowne last May surrounded by red and it wasn't very enjoyable.
The lack of noise was probably down to the lack of booze on sale.:rolleyes:

daveirl

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davyjose

daveirl wrote:

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Oh right, ha ha. Yeah - I was quiet for about the first twenty minutes, with a hangover There was a good mix of fans alright.

RuggieBear

tbh, it wasn't a great match. Bits of class from the leisnter backs and leinster scrum was demolished again. But i thought the visitors were quite poor and I can't actually believe that ulster are leading the league

Good banter between the fans and an amazing turn out by Ulster fans. I'd say between 10 and 20k came down.

Again the match was ruined by an appalling ref who apparently (well according to LF.com) has voiced the opinion that he considers Leinster to have a discipline problem, and an attitude problem, and that they're the dirtiest team in the competition.

Amz

The referee was woejus.

Downtime

I thought the referee had a good game - was a bit aggrieved at a few of his decisions when at the game but having watched it again on telly thought he did quite well in a tought game. He kept control and did not allow it to boil over. I think big Mal was lucky to stay on the pitch after the flagging in what was a dirty tackle.

People are all too quick to have a go at the ref, the guy is young and doing his best and took the opportunity he was given well.

I thought Leinster were sh1te. All too often they looked confused when they had the ball. An awful game.

Downtime

RuggieBear wrote:

Again the match was ruined by an appalling ref who apparently (well according to LF.com) has voiced the opinion that he considers Leinster to have a discipline problem, and an attitude problem, and that they're the dirtiest team in the competition.

Leinster have a discipline problem - maybe not dirty players but the continually break the law and give away stupid needless penalties - look at the munster game - lost by 15 points = 5 penalties for stupid offences.

mikedragon32

Downtime wrote:

Leinster have a discipline problem - maybe not dirty players but the continually break the law and give away stupid needless penalties - look at the munster game - lost by 15 points = 5 penalties for stupid offences.

Would have to agree. Not necessarily dirty. Just careless when it comes to giving penalties withing striking distance.

The game wasn't ever going to go down as a classic game of rugby given the wind, the condition of the pitch and the performance in Ravenhill a few weeks ago. Still, some impressive rugby played. Wallace's penalties were well taken and BO'Ds pass to himself (it looked like a pass to himself from the South Terrace anyway, and I've not seen a replay to tell me otherwise) was pretty good too!

I was a bit disappointed with the event. Having made a big deal of "The Last Stand" with advertising, posters etc., there was a real sense of anti-climax after the game. It was really a case of "thanks for coming, bye now".

Thought it was interesting to have Wanderers and Lansdowne kids play at halftime. While I appreciate that they are the home clubs there, it does nothing to shake the D4 image of Leinster rugby!

Anyway, I would have been going to the game anyway, so won't lose any sleep over it.

Downtime

mikedragon32 wrote:

BO'Ds pass to himself (it looked like a pass to himself from the South Terrace anyway, and I've not seen a replay to tell me otherwise) was pretty good too!

Was indeed to himself - over Hickie and right back in his arms - a nice piece of play.

mikedragon32

Downtime wrote:

Was indeed to himself - over Hickie and right back in his arms - a nice piece of play.

It was one of those things, blink and you miss it! Nobody around me was sure if it actually happened!

Thanks for the confirmation.

daveirl

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RuggieBear

completely missed it from my vantage in the east terrace. (the BOD magic [I reckon it was crossing anyhow])

as for a discipline problem....well ronnie McCormack and Mal give away the stupidest penalties you'll ever see but i reckon irish refs are out to get Leinster after the "Blaney Incident" and the fact that Chieka pulls no punches in criticising them.

Gerry Thornley irish times today wrote:

Leinster are becoming a little paranoid about referees, and on the latest evidence are probably justified in feeling they are still suffering for previous run-ins with officials. Here, a 13-5 penalty count against them took the tally from their all-Irish festive doubleheader to 30-12.

Brian O'Driscoll felt Leinster were unfairly treated by George Clancy in the first half especially - at the end of which the penalty count was 10-3.

But Leinster did concede some inane penalties, notably for Wallace's opening three-pointer when Ronnie McCormack flapped the ball away from Isaac Boss when loitering yards offside on the fringes of a ruck.

Nor could there be any quibble with Denis Hickie's yellow card for killing ruck ball.

davyjose

RuggieBear wrote:

completely missed it from my vantage in the east terrace. (the BOD magic [I reckon it was crossing anyhow])

It wasn't crossing because O'Driscoll wasn't carrying the ball, nor was it forward because he threw it to himself.

Leinster seem to have a discipline problem, on given evidence. However, on many occasions both against Ulster and Munster, where penalties given for the opposition - there was nothing given to Leinster for similar offences. So i think there is definitely a bias. Having said that, it's ridiculous that Leinster haven't, by now, realised that they need to be EXTRA disciplined, to convince refs.

Trojan

From the West Upper, the 1st half conclusion was that the ref was utterly dire. Would have been better with one of the managers reffing like we used to do in Schoolboys friendlies (when the ref got lost, as they invariably did in Connacht). In fact, I remember my coach penalising me 3 times in a row for taking the scrum too low... like he'd taught me the week previously! Ah, the good ol' days...

Anyway, so it wasn't just the penalties against Leinster that p!ssed me off rightly, it was the lack of penalties against Ulster for obvious fouls.

E.g. last I remember, a shoulder charge with no attempt to tackle was a penalty offence - that one was bang in front of the posts. Was that one written off the books recently? If Leinster lost they'd have every reason to feel aggrieved with the merry whistle blower. Of course I saw the replay on tv there's a chance I'd see it differently.

[Insert generic "arrogant Munster" comment here]

DMC

That was the first Leinster match I've been at in a good while, and the occasion was excellent. I was in the middle of a Ulster pack on the upper East, and the consensus was that the ref was indeed crap, but at least he was equally crap to both teams! His decisions balanced out over time.

Jilm

BODs pass to himself was indeed class.

thebaz

Jilm wrote:

BODs pass to himself was indeed class.

Class indeed -- is there no end to the mans talent -- Greatest Irish player of all time for sure !

jrd

Not the greatest game ever, and Ulster could feel hard done by with the scoreline. The best news for Leinster was the return of Contepomi and the form of Keogh. The BOD trick was ok and he played ok, but the talkback to the ref has to stop.

Took a few photos if you're interested

http://www.flickr.com/photos/joedoyle/sets/72157594455182180/

besty

THAT piece of skill from B O'D made the wetness worthwhile!

Amazotheamazing

Just a few questions,

Is Wallace now a realistic back-up to O'Gara, he seems have played well? Will Sexton be Leinster's full time back-up

Will Keogh get capped in the 6n's? He seems to have done very well against both Munster and Ulster?

Should Ireland go with an all Ulster front row, and all Munster front row, or a mix?

Has Tommy Bowe improved enough to make it back into the squad, or is he still some distance behind Horgan, Hickie and Trimble?

davyjose

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Has Tommy Bowe improved enough to make it back into the squad, or is he still some distance behind Horgan, Hickie and Trimble?

Short answer, for me, No! To be honest, without meaning to sound biased, I think there was a marked difference between Both Ulster and Leinster wingers. Trimble was fairly anonymous until he made an absolute humdinger of an error which would have been a try but for a lucky knock-on.
I certainly think Hickie has made it impossible not to be first choice left winger for Ireland (although Eddie might find a way). He not only played his own game at the weekend, but gave Kearney an awful lot of support. I don't just think he should start for Ireland, i think he would be one of our 3 or 4 best players.
Behind him, and assuming Horgan starts, I'd put Bowe.

Hippo

First half dire, second half watchable as Leinster finally got a few things together and won fairly comfortably despite the scoreline. Couldn't believe how poor Ulster were, a really clueless performance. Great support for them though. Maybe it was a slightly flat occasion, but that was hardly surprising given the weather.

As for the point that the kids of wanderers and lansdowne did nothing to dispel the D4 image of the game, the were the obvious choice for the final game at the old stadium, and there's been plenty of teams from outside the 'traditional' areas playing in the half time interval over the years...

Diamondmaker

Its hard to see hoe EOS can not pick Hickie at 11....
There is very little between the 2 players apart from age. Hickie still has the pace required to be a wing and shows this week in week out and to my great pleasure in burning young Barry Murphy.

Hickie is part of an accoplished back unit and any slight advantages that Trimble may bring are lost by taking an integral part of the Leinster unit out and parachting in Trimble. Hickie is again playting some great rugby and finishing like a killer. His try against Oz? ( was it? ) where he breaks 3 tackles spins and duucks under another to finish was sublime. Imdividual try of the season material...a true finisher!

Trimble is the future and his abiltiy to play centre will help us in cover for the 2 rocks. Hickie also comes with the instinctive connection to the rest of the unit ( assuming Girv isa fit ) so why play Trimble 1st?
Is there an undiscussed quota of Ulster players that must make the 1st team?

Deciding question: would Trimble be picked ahead of Hickie at Leinster tomorrow. I have said this before and I believe that he would not, so if the Leinster back line is not broken so why fix it?

Tommy Bowe is not an option. Sooner look to Munster over him. He did take his tries well last week but was anon against a better back unit on Sat.

Hippo

Looks like Sexton is the new no. 10 replacement for Leinster, though I'm far from convinced (and I'm not sure what greivous sin Andy Dunne has committed). Admittedly Sexton had to work off an incredibly slow service from Whitaker on Sunday, but his restarts are a major problem. He is young and promising though....

Wallace is becoming the back-up for ROG, no doubt about it, but mainly in the absence of serious contenders. To be fair to him he's improved out of all recognition this year, and his place-kicking offers great reassurance. Tommy Bowe...absolutely not. Luke Fitzgerald is already ahead of him imo even though he's hardly played

RuggieBear

andy dunne is hugely talented but totally flakey

Diamondmaker

I know very very little about Dunne and was surprised to see him dropped for the recent games? Cheika must be just trying out the options and he has seen them both play reaosnably well. If AD is a bit older than Sexton then Sexton is a good one to groom of the 2.

I found Sexton went top ground way to often when he broke ( which was quite often which was good to see in one sense ) even with BOD on his shoulder ready for an off load. He needs the confidence to off load in tackle knowing innately that support will be there.

His tactical kicking was poor but in those conditions to be fair only ROG will ever look good, most OHs included.

Felipe did steady things when ge came on and obviously took more control thab a fella born in 85 on his 2nd? cap could possibly do. Its good to see some cover there and it needs to be used to build his game more often.

All in all Leinster came through a double header to French oppostion with 2 wins and BPs, away draw to Ulster home win to Ulster and expected loss away to Munster all without Phil. Was some acheivement IMO and to be saluted.

Sangre

Yeah, me thinks Hickie has played his way back into the squad. A huge talent this season for Leinster. Guess it would be no shame having Trimble as an impact sub. Although between two equally impressive players its probably wise to go for the youngest player. I certainly don't envy EOS picking the backline.

Anyone hear on injury status of Dempsey?
I wonder how Trimble would fair as a back-up fullback...me goes off and ponders.

Diamondmaker

Hickie missed the crunch part of the last WC while playing what was commonly lauded as the best bal;l of his life. That injury and knowing this will be his last will spur him onto some great things I belive.
Next year is Trimbles year.

Denis deserves to close off his career with the 11 shirt 6N and WC.

He deserves it based on form he is on fire again!

Hippo

RuggieBear wrote:

andy dunne is hugely talented but totally flakey

I'm aware of the Andy Dunne is a complete flake theory, but I'm not sure what evidence there is for this recently, and given that he's in his late twenties now it might be reasonable to assume that this is less of a problem now. Having said all that maybe he's shown something on the training ground that we're not aware of! I just think Sexton looks a very long way off being the solution.

Crash

See, this whole "who deserves the 11 jersey" argument is wrong - we should be in heaven right now. We have two interchangeable wingers which we can swap in and out, its just perfect. and finally Eddie's started to kinda get the hang of substitutions, so its even better.

Hickie for the first half, then bring in trimble if needs be - or trimble for the first half and bring in hickie is trimble fumbles about a bit - its a great situation to be in.

Sangre

I think Hickie would make the better impact sub. Has the experience, brains and skill to change a faltering game in the last 20 minutes.

davyjose

Sangre wrote:

I think Hickie would make the better impact sub. Has the experience, brains and skill to change a faltering game in the last 20 minutes.

I can see what you mean by this, but I think it's a good idea to start with your best XV against the better teams. I know there may be questions over who is better than who at the moment (although Sunday spoke volumes to my mind), but you have to take into account the partnerships teams have made. Look at some of the Rugby that O'Driscoll and Hickie play together for Leinster - it almost makes me wet with giddiness. In a game like Rugby this is immensely critical to how a team performs - Look at DOC and POC in the 2nd row. Few will dispute O'Callaghans place ahead of O'Kelly (not even me ), because of how well the Munster pair know each other.
And BOD does play a lot better with Hickie than without.

Diamondmaker

Here here.........

why take one element out of the arguably worlds most accomplished back unit for one player that may or may not be slightly better. The unit as a whole will suffer regardless of the quality of the replacement.

Sangre

Diamondmaker wrote:

Here here.........

why take one element out of the arguably worlds most accomplished back unit for one player that may or may not be slightly better. The unit as a whole will suffer regardless of the quality of the replacement.

Because the replacement is about 9 years younger? Theres one reason.

Tbh, I'd have no idea really about Hickie vs Trimble. I think I'd go for Trimble as he is much younger and can seem to make breaks at will, he has always been immense in green. Hickie though for the last 20 minutes. Although I might start Hickie if against a very experienced and talented backline.#

I think with the 9/10 and 12/13 partnership (and the history of the two together) any changes to wing or FB won't affect the backline unit detrimentrally.

Actually what is Trimble's kicking from hand like? Hickie's left boot is a great option in the backline.

davyjose

Sangre wrote:

Because the replacement is about 9 years younger? Theres one reason.
...and can seem to make breaks at will, he has always been immense in green. Hickie though for the last 20 minutes. Although I might start Hickie if against a very experienced and talented backline.

Considering that The WC is little more than 8 months away, I'm not sure that this makes a huge difference right now.
As for making breaks, I think that's possibly because Trimble is very much a Centre/Winger, but Hickie's wide running is comparable only in the SH. And i disagree, I still think O'Driscolls partnership with hickie allows BOD to play his game as he wants.

Of course this is a nice discussion to have: It's like deciding between the Jag and the Porsche ...:D

Good point - Might be a good idea to play either player to suit the opposition.

Sangre

For what he does it would probably be better to have Trimble as a Horgan sub rather than a Hickie replacement. Horgan and Trimble are the better adept at cutting inside from the wing and breaking defences centrally off the out half or centres. Hickie clearly prefers the outside route to tries (although can do the other well enough). Might be preferable to have one in each in a team.

I dunno, I keep confusing myself.

Of course, there is no way Shaggy is losing that Irish jersey any time soon!