Thumbs up to the government...

...I seem to remember threads complaining about road deaths and the downgrading of the Irish language.

Not saying that either complaint was invalid, but guess it's only fair to congratulate the government in a week when there was better news on both fronts.

Villain

I know what your saying and while a decrease is a move in the right direction, 366 deaths on our roads last year is still way too high imo and sadly two of those deaths included personal friends so it was really brought home to me how much impact one road death can have.

Lets hope the government sort out the problems and we can get a further reduction this year.

El Stuntman

irish1 wrote:

Lets hope the government sort out the problems and we can get a further reduction this year.

I'm sorry for the loss of your friends but I feel your sentiment above is a bit misdirected

The government isn't killing people on our roads, we are by drink/drug driving and speeding. State action needs to be matched by people taking personal responsibility for their own actions, especially in rural areas. I just spent a few days in a very rural part of Ireland (I'm a Dub) and I was pretty shocked by what I saw in terms of drinking and driving.

OP, seeing as our beloved Taoiseach has barely got a word of Irish, your FF showboating seems a bit misplaced!!

Villain

Oh I wasn't trying to blaim the Government for each road death, I'm only too well aware that drink driving and speeding are the problems but the government can help by tackling some of the other problems like the waiting lists for driving tests and the provisional licencing system, as Noel Brett said this morning people can basically buy a driving license.

Everyone needs to do their part including the Government.

I don't know what the waiting list times are now but they must be denting despite the problems with NCT driving test centres near the m50.

Theres a new test centre in my local town where there never was one for instance which has to be clearing a back log.

Road deaths for the reasons stated by posters already were never on my list of anti government things.
I've been driving the N11 every day for the last 2 months now and I can tell you as I'm sure you'd agree, there are a lot of careless drivers out there with full licences(apparently).Tailgaters and those who think that an indicator light on is a bad thing come to mind.

Colonel Sanders

I'm no fan of FF but the carnage on our roads is one thing where drivers must take responsibility for and not try blame everyone and anyone. Anyone on here who travels in a car or bus regularly be it as a driver or passenger will see the bad quality of driving on Irish roads. People breaking red lights, speeding, not indicating, reckless behaviour, tailgating a car who's driving at the speed limit to try make them go faster, drink driving etc etc etc. Two nights ago I saw some eejit 'race' a luas across the tracks (the traffic lights were red) egged on by a bunch of clowns in the back seat who all thought it funny that the luas carriage missed him by no more than two feet. I could go on and on with examples of stupidity on the roads but I'm sure I wouldn't be telling people anything they didn't already know.

The government has a part to play in education, policing and also possibly making the process of obtaining a license less lengthy but more stringent in order to weed out poor drivers. However a major drop in road fatalities will only happen when people themselves cop on.

silverharp

I know society aint perfect, but I still hold FF largely responsible for not reforming the licencing system in the 90's. At least 500-1000 people would be alive today if we had adopted European best practice.They completely lack vision when is comes to quality of life improvements and seem intent on being 10 years late when they finally do.

Macy

Deleted User wrote:

...I seem to remember threads complaining about road deaths and the downgrading of the Irish language.

Fair play, only 18 of the last 20 years in power to make some progress.

Hopefully it'll be the start of a continued trend, and not just a blip like followed the introduction of the penalty point offences - a couple of months of people obeying the law as they thought they'd get caught, followed by them going back to old levels once the realisation hit that the chances of getting caught were so small.

The Noel Brett and Gay Byrne are nothing more than spoofers with the nonsense they come up with. You can certainly see why Cullen liked them.

Macy

Macy wrote:

Fair play, only 18 of the last 20 years in power to make some progress.

Well seeing as the fatalities and accidents peaked towards the end of the last Rainbow Coalition in 1997 I guess the person the person who should really answer questions about progress and his track record was Brendan Howlin.

Villain

Sorry but imo thats bull Conor, I hate this crap of FF supporters saying "ah it might be bad at the moment but hey remember 10 years ago when it was even worse".

FF have been in power long enough now to have made a real impact, can you tell me why it has taken so long to get Random Breath testing introduced?? Would it have anything to do with the Publican's putting pressure on back benchers? FF have failed to tackle road safety seriously for nearly 10 years so harping back to what FG and Labour done is just sad imo.

Macy

Deleted User wrote:

Well seeing as the fatalities and accidents peaked towards the end of the last Rainbow Coalition in 1997 I guess the person the person who should really answer questions about progress and his track record was Brendan Howlin.

I suppose so, particularly as they can take credit for the boom too with economic growth also peaking then too with FF/PD working at reducing that downwards since in a similar way .

MrPudding

El Stuntman wrote:

I State action needs to be matched by people taking personal responsibility for their own actions, especially in rural areas. I just spent a few days in a very rural part of Ireland (I'm a Dub) and I was pretty shocked by what I saw in terms of drinking and driving.

People simply will not change on their own. This is a basic fact of human nature. This, coupled with another handy fact of human nature, the "it will never happen to me" belief system mean one thing. If there is an advantage to be had from a certain behaviour that behaviour will continue until it is shown that it no longer has an advantage over another tpye of behaviour.

To illustrate, let take a typical drink driver. He has been doing it for years. He has never had a accident, well a serious one anyway. This reinforces his belief that accidents happen to other people. He has also never been caught. He is in a comfort zone. Going to the pub, having a bunch of pints and driving home is much handier than leaving the car there, getting a taxi home and then getting back to the pub the next day to collect the car.

He will continue to drink and drive until he sees that it is no longer his "best option."

People need carrots or sticks to change. Very few people will change of their own volition. This is the way it has always been. The government knows this. I agree that there is personal responsibility here but at the same time people need to be given a reason to change behaviour.

It is the job of the government to provide the carrots and the sticks, they are in power. It is a massive copout for them to say it is solely the responsibilty of the driver.

MrP

Colonel Sanders

MrPudding wrote:

It is the job of the government to provide the carrots and the sticks, they are in power. It is a massive copout for them to say it is solely the responsibilty of the driver.

MrP

I think its a massive cop out by individuals blaming everyone and anyone and solely blaming the govt. I don't disagree with any of the logic in your argument but the decision to get into a car tanked up rests solely on the shoulders of the individual involved.

People need to take responsibility for their actions more, not just in re. drink driving but in all walks of life. its the same if pension funds or investment schemes lose money, people who have piled in with little or no knowledge of the market automatically look for a scapegoat to blame for them losing money.

ballooba

El Stuntman wrote:

The government isn't killing people on our roads, we are by drink/drug driving and speeding. State action needs to be matched by people taking personal responsibility for their own actions, especially in rural areas. I just spent a few days in a very rural part of Ireland (I'm a Dub) and I was pretty shocked by what I saw in terms of drinking and driving.

Like Jim Mc Daid fo instance?

"Do as I say, not as I do"?

lostexpectation

people occasionally say, oh they ban cigs but not cars, maybe the greatest way to reduce car death is reduce/restrict the numbers of cars.

El Stuntman

ballooba wrote:

Like Jim Mc Daid fo instance?

"Do as I say, not as I do"?

ahh good ole Jimbo

one of my all-time favourite unreconstructed FFers

thanks for the memories

Victor

Deleted User wrote:

Well seeing as the fatalities and accidents peaked towards the end of the last Rainbow Coalition in 1997 I guess the person the person who should really answer questions about progress and his track record was Brendan Howlin.

You mean the chap that is still featured on the front of the Rules of the Road, because the Department of Transport won't get their thumb out?

I've put the Garda figures against who was in government, nobody has a monopoly either way. The long term effects of improved safety and a public less willing to take casualties are the deciding figures. Tellingly, society has responded to both Penalty Points and Random Breath Testing. Society needs a voice to lead it. From 2002-2006 the government say on its laurels and did nothing.

Conor, if you are going to take shots like that, admit that Fianna Fail is the only party to have lost power because it wouldn't bring child abusers to justice.

sovtek

silverharp wrote:

I know society aint perfect, but I still hold FF largely responsible for not reforming the licencing system in the 90's. At least 500-1000 people would be alive today if we had adopted European best practice.They completely lack vision when is comes to quality of life improvements and seem intent on being 10 years late when they finally do.

This is what I've been saying on this subject for years now. Punitive measures for drivers only go so far in reducing road deaths/accidents. The infrastructure must be in place as well as a proper testing system. And it needs to be public!
FF haven't gotten this and they never will.

mickoneill30

Well congrats to whoever has helped bring these numbers down. I know the government is only one part in the chain (although if you listened to the opposition all last year you'd think FF were going out and running over people themselves).
I keep hearing how we've got massive immigration and how traffic has increased in certain areas by 10% & 20% so for the deaths to go the other way is a positive thing. Plenty more to do though but it's heading the right direction. Hopefully we can all keep it up

Zombrex

Colonel Sanders wrote:

I'm no fan of FF but the carnage on our roads is one thing where drivers must take responsibility for and not try blame everyone and anyone.

Blame is largely irrelivent. Blaming people won't stop road deaths.

You can't force other drives to drive better. I can't force other drives to drive better. Even if we start blaming other drivers after something has happened that isn't going to make others drive better.

Saying drivers should take care is all very well but it ain't going to do anything. The simple fact of the matter is that the government are the only people with the power to force people to drive better.

Colonel Sanders

Wicknight wrote:

You can't force other drives to drive better.......

the government are the only people with the power to force people to drive better.

is that not a bit of a contradiction?

Zombrex

Colonel Sanders wrote:

is that not a bit of a contradiction?

No that was a literal "you", as in "you, Colonel Sanders, cannot force other drivers to drive better"

Colonel Sanders

The govt cannot MAKE people drive more safely, they can only educate and prosecute offenders. All the ad campaigns etc cannot make someone drive more safely, they can only try influence people's decisions.

The bottom line is the decision to drink drive, drive recklessly lies solely with the individual and if a person gets behind the wheel of a car with drink taken and kills/injures someone the blame rests solely with that individual.

ballooba

Colonel Sanders wrote:

they can only try influence people's decisions.

You mean with role models like Jim Mc Daid and GV Wright.

Let's not forget also the speeding minister's cars. Including none other than our Teflon Taoiseach.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/frontpagepdfs/2006/14825.pdf
http://archives.tcm.ie/westernpeople/2003/01/29/story11477.asp

SeanW

Well put.

Colonel Sanders

ballooba wrote:

You mean with role models like Jim Mc Daid and GV Wright.
QUOTE]

All I pointed out is what the role of the govt is, whether its our current govt or a new govt after this yr's election. I never said each member of that govt is infallible or a great role model.

My point was not to praise our govt (I'm no fan of FF) but to highlight that in my opinion the individual must start to take responsibility for their own actions.

sovtek

Colonel Sanders wrote:

ballooba wrote:

My point was not to praise our govt (I'm no fan of FF) but to highlight that in my opinion the individual must start to take responsibility for their own actions.

...and the government's responsibility is to provide the licensing for drivers and the education that goes along with that. In addition a safe road system/infrastructure.
Are they doing that?

What, of course, they should also do is determine what percentage of road deaths are suspected suicides, and ergo have nothing to do with licensing, the roads, education or the Government at all...

Macy

Yeah, because the Government has no responsibility for the state of mental health services in the country. (Unless it's another example of where Jim McDaid speaks for the Government?)

Zombrex

Colonel Sanders wrote:

The govt cannot MAKE people drive more safely, they can only educate and prosecute offenders. All the ad campaigns etc cannot make someone drive more safely, they can only try influence people's decisions.

Well you are assuming they only have ad campaigns.

In the States a trial has begun in on state, can't remember the exact on, will try and find link, where every single new car in the state has to have a breathalizer. You cannot start your car unless you pass the breath test.

Another trial in the UK had GPS systems attached to cars. If you speed at all, anywhere, at any time, this information is record. This could be used for a points system or prosecution. Similar systems can be used by insurance companies to monitor driving habits, and raise or refuse to insure people who drive dangerously

It is only the government that can make these things mandatory, and if they are only voluntary they won't do much good because dangerous drivers would just refuse to install them.,

Colonel Sanders wrote:

The bottom line is the decision to drink drive, drive recklessly lies solely with the individual and if a person gets behind the wheel of a car with drink taken and kills/injures someone the blame rests solely with that individual.

Again with the blame game. Blame after the fact does nothing.

I personally would not give a sh1t if you did or did not blame someone for running into me a 100 miles an hour as I'm walking home. Who you blame afterward makes very little odds to my head being disconnected from my body and thrown 100 yards up the road.

The government have a responsibility to govern us. The hint is in the name. This includes taking measures to ensure our safety from each other. If they aren't doing this then they are not doing their job and they should be removed for people who will do the job.

Colonel Sanders

Are you not also playing the blame game? you are blaming the government. You are right that blaming someone after the incident does little my point was that as soon as there are a cluster of road deaths its the government that begins to fel the pressure not idiotic drivers, and there are a lot of them on irish roads.

Sure the testing proceedure could be made more stringent but do you think that the clown I referred to 'racing' the luas drove like that during his test? No, but as soon as the L plates are whipped off he starts driving like a rally driver.

All i am saying is that all the legislation in the world will not help unless individuals wise up and take responsibility for their own actions. Anything else is a major cop out IMO. Disagree with me all you like.

As you say it is the govt's job to govern us but not to spoon feed us. if people copped on there would not be as great a need for the devices you mentioned above.

Of course the govermnet has a role to play and the more agressive and proactive they are the better but any move the government makes must be matched with a change in people's attitudes to drink driving etc.

Macy

Macy wrote:

Yeah, because the Government has no responsibility for the state of mental health services in the country.

Yeah because countries with better mental health services have eliminated suicide altogether...

Lennoxschips

There are small roads in Ireland with 100 km/hr speed limits posted. There are cart tracks with 80 km/hr limits. Any government that permits this is inherently incompetent.

is_that_so

Lennoxschips wrote:

There are small roads in Ireland with 100 km/hr speed limits posted. There are cart tracks with 80 km/hr limits. Any government that permits this is inherently incompetent.

Much as I would like this to be true the power to control these is vested in incompetent local councils.

Lennoxschips

They could easily change the legislation to have road limits set by a national entity with the relative expertise. It should be a task for the NRA, probably. Most stretches of N road should be downgraded to 80 and most country R roads should be 60.

There has been no movement on speed cameras in Ireland. Every single black spot in Ireland should have a permanent speed camera with a digital camera and wireless connection, beaming offences straight to the garda station. That would deter speeding. But nothing has been done.

Road deaths may be down slightly, but that is mostly down to raised awareness due to media coverage and less to any steps taken by the government. The credit should go to RTE News and the national papers, not the government.

Victor

Deleted User wrote:

What, of course, they should also do is determine what percentage of road deaths are suspected suicides, and ergo have nothing to do with licensing, the roads, education or the Government at all...

The Kildare County Coroner has done research on this, of 86 road traffic deaths he has investigated, there were no confirmed suicides and one potential suicide. The figures may be quite low.

Colonel Sanders wrote:

Are you not also playing the blame game? you are blaming the government.

No, it is a call for leadership and a call for action - two things the government control. Personally, I would gladly take Martin Cullen's job, but that might result in a constitutional crisis. Until that time, all I can do is advise him and the RSA.

You are right that blaming someone after the incident does little my point was that as soon as there are a cluster of road deaths its the government that begins to fel the pressure not idiotic drivers, and there are a lot of them on irish roads.

Anecdotally, a cluster of deaths has a following lull.

Lennoxschips

thumbs down for the government



a similar road in the netherlands would be 60 km/hr, and there'd be red and white arrow markings on the corner.

it might be contributory factor to why the road death rate in ireland is twice as high as in holland

ballooba

is_that_so wrote:

Much as I would like this to be true the power to control these is vested in incompetent local councils.

The N2 has a speed limit of 120kmph so as to make out that it is a motorway. A lot of FF people actually refer to it as the N2 motorway. The speed limit on that road is politically motivated.

http://www.n2finglasashbourne.ie/