Should Catholic Priest Be Allowed To Marry

walrusgumble

reason i put this thread here is because i felt it was a social issue for dicussion between all walks of life to discuss about

we are all aware of the church's influence in Irish society, maybe more obvious years ago but that's is your opinion as to whether or not. sometimes their involvemet has been good, with the exception of a very small minority (as seen with child abuse etc) their involvement with youth clubs, training gaa teams, teaching and running of hospitals, shelters for the poor.

one thing that use to bother the hell out of me was the area of family matters. fair enough they were/are an institution that people look to for guidance and they have their right to speak. but i always found it hard especially seen their stance on divorce, noel brown's mother and child scheme etc. i experienced separated wife/husbands asking their priest to speak to the other spouse to consider reconcillation and to give the marriage another go (this is just one example) but how could these lads be taken seriously, they never had a family of their own, they dont have personal experience on how hard marriage can be sometimes. coming from a big loving family or witnessing trouble is one thing but they dont really know much about family life do they? can they be in a position to advice people who come to them about their martial problem?(of course people do go to counseling but i am sure some go to a priest just to chat and a blessing to help them get through problems)

I find the idea of priest's vow of celibcy harsh and inhuman after all god gave sex/making love as a gift (fair enough its their choice i am sure some wouldnt have it any other way) but surely priest should, like vicars be allowed to marry (not saying they have to have sex). considering the low numbers of men joining the priesthood, it hardly looks attractive to join. as a result the church looked to lay people for their help in the running and administrative of their parish. maybe many would be happy to become priests if they were allowed to marry

maybe (prob far fetch and completely rubbish dont have to be a priest here)) there might not have been so many child abuse cases (again prob rubbish) but at least (my opinion) it be easier to speak to priest about problems because they would/might be truely able to understand and emphasis with you ratherr than give the odd blessing and be on your way.

what do ye think, allowed to marry or not or dont care? what other changes would you like to see the vatican change? (assuming a moderate pope if there is such a thing ha power to do so)

admiralofthefleet

why not, there is not anything in the bible that says a man cannot marry, then again there is no mention of a 'pope' or nuns or purgatory in the bible either. all those have been created by the so-called catholic 'church'.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

that's up to the vatican, priests make the decision to join that club knowing full well the implications of their choice. They have no right to turn around and cry 'let us have sex!' just because they want to, it's not as if they were duped into a sexless life. If they want sex, they can turn to one of the other christian denominations that permit it. IF they want to be catholic priests, they have to do what the vatican says. There are no if's, shoulds or but's about it. The Pope is god's go-to man here on earth and the vatican is his private clubhouse, what he/it says goes.... so far as catholicism goes... I personally would take everything he/it says with a couple of bucket loads of salt.

Devon

From what I remember this rule was introduced to avoid land disputes should a priest die and leave a wife and children. These days it would be a legal minefield, so I'd say the vatican prefer to just let sleeping dogs lie.

seamus

walrusgumble wrote:

I find the idea of priest's vow of celibcy harsh and inhuman after all god gave sex/making love as a gift

Well, as Mord points out, this is entirely the priest's choice. A man chooses to become a priests, and celibacy is laid out there bare from the beginning. You can't really say it "harsh" because nobody's being forced to do anything.

considering the low numbers of men joining the priesthood, it hardly looks attractive to join.

I'm not sure that celibacy is the *main* reason why, but certainly it would be up there. Changing moral values and an overall shift in attitude would probably account for a massive amount of it. Back in the day, there were a number of main reasons why a man may join the priesthood;

1. Tradition - the youngest son would traditionally become a priest, whether he wanted to or not.
2. Pressure - An overtly religious family could put enormous pressure on a son to become a priest (which by extension would give that family some power in the local community).
3. Hiding - Even as late as the 1990's, the priesthood was used as a hiding place for those who felt a need to conceal their sexuality. Homosexuality was illegal up until 1992 (?), so the priesthood was often a hiding place for homosexuals, spurred on by their families. As we've seen, it was also a place where peadophiles could go either because they were ashamed of themselves or because it put them in a position where they had private access to children.

These are pretty much all now extinct, and the only reason a man would join the priesthood today is out of faith (and probably a tiny proportion of homosexuals still hiding from themselves). And it doesn't look like a very appealing prospect to a modern Irish man, faith or no faith.

what do ye think, allowed to marry or not or dont care? what other changes would you like to see the vatican change? (assuming a moderate pope if there is such a thing ha power to do so)

I don't really care. It's up to the catholics themselves if that's what they want to do. Ultimately, if the RC church continues along the same policies that it currently has, it's dead in the water in this country and will probably become a fringe religion here in about 30 years. Having been raised catholic, I'd prefer to see it decline than reinvent itself, but neither would affect me greatly.

I believe that women priests (who could marry and procreate obviously) would be of far more benefit to the catholic church than married men ever would. Women are innately more religious/spiritual and eager to be active in the community. Women have for a long time, been the workhorses of the catholic church, while the priests held the power.

As an aside, celibacy has never really stopped any priests. There's a priest and a married woman in Wicklow who run pre-marriage courses for people wanting to get married. They preach about the secrets of a good marriage, and about the sanctity of marriage in the RC church, and then promptly go off and ride each other silly. :rolleyes:

Dades

seamus wrote:

I don't really care. It's up to the catholics themselves if that's what they want to do. Ultimately, if the RC church continues along the same policies that it currently has, it's dead in the water in this country and will probably become a fringe religion here in about 30 years. Having been raised catholic, I'd prefer to see it decline than reinvent itself, but neither would affect me greatly.

I believe that women priests (who could marry and procreate obviously) would be of far more benefit to the catholic church than married men ever would. Women are innately more religious/spiritual and eager to be active in the community. Women have for a long time, been the workhorses of the catholic church, while the priests held the power.

What seamus said.

They will eventually have to do this to survive.

mike65

yes

Mike.

aidan24326

Walrusgrumble, we all know that priests should be allowed to get married. Most catholics I know (including my devout granny) are all for it. There's no real justification for the celibacy rule anymore. Protestant vicars get married and it seems to work fine for them.

Like Seamus said, the Catholic Church are very much facing a crossroads on this and other issues. Either they pull their heads out of the sand and join the 21st century, or they die a slow death, it's as simple as that. They are already in serious decline here in Ireland, traditionally one of the mainstays of the catholic church in Western Europe.

The alarm bells are ringing, but as we know the RC church are notoriously resistant to change, any change, and this may yet be their downfall.
Well either they change soon or they self-destruct. Personally I would shed no tears if they went belly-up, in fact I'd be pleased.

IBut if they choose to modernise and adapt to a changing world, re-invent themselves as it were, I'd have no problem with that either. Though given their history, I won't hold my breath.

vesp

'course they should ( be allowed to marry ). In the third world most of them have live in lovers (of whatever sex ) anyway.

Owen

Yes of course they should be allowed to marry. My Uncle has been a Parish Priest for many years, he's in his 70's now, and he regrets not being able to marry and have kids. I feel sorry for him to be honest. It's not natural, or normal to be celibate.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

what about nuns? should they be allowed have lesbian orgies?

the_syco

seamus wrote:

Ultimately, if the RC church continues along the same policies that it currently has, it's dead in the water in this country and will probably become a fringe religion here in about 30 years. Having been raised catholic, I'd prefer to see it decline than reinvent itself, but neither would affect me greatly.

Humans do not know what they want. They hated the Catholic church as it was too strict, now hoards of people are joining Islam, as its strict. They want teh Catolic church to change, and change it has done, but since Islam doesn't change, it looks like a more stable religon.

As more and more people don't goto mass, less people get counted as Catolics, and more people join Islam, Catholicism will die down, untill it makes a comeback, being anti-gay anti-woman anti-stuff-in-general, saying that going to church is madatory, and failing to do so will make your life hell.

Until then, people will ignore it, as at teh moment, the RC church is trying too hard to please everyone, except those who it already has.

Bottle_of_Smoke

walrusgumble wrote:

one thing that use to bother the hell out of me was the area of family matters. fair enough they were/are an institution that people look to for guidance and they have their right to speak. but i always found it hard especially seen their stance on divorce, noel brown's mother and child scheme etc. i experienced separated wife/husbands asking their priest to speak to the other spouse to consider reconcillation and to give the marriage another go (this is just one example) but how could these lads be taken seriously, they never had a family of their own, they dont have personal experience on how hard marriage can be sometimes. coming from a big loving family or witnessing trouble is one thing but they dont really know much about family life do they? can they be in a position to advice people who come to them about their martial problem?(of course people do go to counseling but i am sure some go to a priest just to chat and a blessing to help them get through problems)

It's true they don't have direct experience. However people go to psychologists who've never had psychological issues themselves... And even go to family councellers who've never had a family.

As many people in communites discuss their thoughts & actions with priests through chats & confession I feel they have suitable experience to advise. I'd be more concerned they might try & let their faith control their advice but I think you'd know by the priest whether he was speaking for himself or the big man.

You go to a mortgage advisor in Dublin these days he\she probably won't have a mortgage. I don't see why you need direct experience to advise.

walrusgumble

good point, i was just fearing that a priest would be condesending, like bishop colm smith (i thin that's his name, his in galway now, prob have name wrong he is the bishop who had a son which an american) on tv in the 70's

i suppose newly ordained priests would be aware of changing times and their attitudes would greatly differ to older priests, attitudes that may be simular to us lay people.

vesp

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

You go to a mortgage advisor in Dublin these days he\she probably won't have a mortgage.

Most mortage advisors have some experience of propert, either from a leasehold or freehold perspective. Besides, all a mortgage advisor does is basically try to sell you a mortgage ...often one that gives him / her good commission while being at an attractive rate to you. You are right, you do not NEED great experience ( or expertise for that matter ) to do that.

However if advice is worth getting, I wpuld rather get it from someone with experience than someone without.

JC 2K3

@OP

Why do you think the Reformation happened??

The Catholic Church doesn't need to change, there're plently of viable, alternative Protestant religions for those who do not like its rules.

vesp

JC 2K3 wrote:

Why do you think the Reformation happened??

Because the Roman Catholic church made up too many rules as it went along, became corrupt and lost touch with basic Christianity.

Suaimhneach

If there is nothing more holy than the sanctity of marrage, I think the preists should be allowed to enjoy that right too.

I think if the rules were changed, there would be a growth in the catholic church.

exCrumlinBoyo

I believe the Catholic Church should change their rules on Priests becoming married. I know the age old argument is that they Priests know what the deal is when they Join the Priesthood. I believe they have full intentions of fulfilling their requirements as a Priest but at the end of the day they are human with blood flowing through their veins.

Maybe, just maybe if the stupid rule did not exist in the first place all the abuse would not of been to the extent as it was/is. Maybe if the Priests and Bishops had a regular sex life with the adult partner of their choice whether it is male or female (Another totally messed up topic of the Catholic Church, homosexuality) it would steer them away from the abuse of the girls and boys back in the day.

At the end of the day, Priests are red blooded males, with feelings and urges. Its not healthy for them to not be able to release these feelings or keep them repressed as they come out in other negative ways such as abuse.

The Catholic Church needs to change its ways, be in a generation or two, they will be have the following they once had nor the respect. Respect has to be earned and they cannot earn that in the ancient times they live and follow.

JC 2K3

I heard a while back that the Vatican(or perhaps just some high up members of the clergy) was considering condensing the Catholic Church down and only including those who were truly Catholic and not the millions of cafeteria Catholics that are part of it right now. I'm not Catholic but I agree with this sentiment. Why would a religion want to be large if most of its follwers didn't obey its doctrine?

There are other Christian religions apart from the Catholic Church*. The Catholic Church has its own rules and beliefs and it happens to be a religion which doesn't explicitly follow the bible, much of its rules were decided by counsils hundreds of years ago and that's just how it is. If you as a Catholic think that the Catholic Church should change its rules then you're wrong and probably should consider why you are a member of the Catholic Church as opposed to a protestant church more open to your views.

*Depending on how you define "Christian" the Catholic Church may not even be Christian due to some of its teachings.

exCrumlinBoyo

JC 2K3 wrote:

I heard a while back that the Vatican(or perhaps just some high up members of the clergy) was considering condensing the Catholic Church down and only including those who were truly Catholic and not the millions of cafeteria Catholics that are part of it right now. I'm not Catholic but I agree with this sentiment. Why would a religion want to be large if most of its follwers didn't obey its doctrine?

There are other Christian religions apart from the Catholic Church*. The Catholic Church has its own rules and beliefs and it happens to be a religion which doesn't explicitly follow the bible, much of its rules were decided by counsils hundreds of years ago and that's just how it is. If you as a Catholic think that the Catholic Church should change its rules then you're wrong and probably should consider why you are a member of the Catholic Church as opposed to a protestant church more open to your views.

*Depending on how you define "Christian" the Catholic Church may not even be Christian due to some of its teachings.

That is why I am a non practicing Catholic. I still feel they need to change their rules against Gays, Contraception & Marriage between Priests. They should also allow women to be priests.

JC 2K3

I don't quite understand what you mean by "non-practicing Catholic". Why not a Protestant?

exCrumlinBoyo

JC 2K3 wrote:

I don't quite understand what you mean by "non-practicing Catholic". Why not a Protestant?

Non practicing Catholic = I was baptized a Catholic, raised by parents who were and still are Catholic's, went to school full of Catholics. I am a Catholic, but I do not practice the religion. I am against a lot of the church's view and practices.

You say why not a protestant? Simply because I am not protestant. I don't follow religion at all and don't affiliate myself with any religion and only state non practicing Catholic to state I was once a practicing Catholic.

tj-music.com

Every person who wants to marry another person with consent of that other person shouldbe allowed to get married. Gender or race or religion should not be an issue. If people want to live happily ever after together than nobody should be allowed stopping them, imho

panda100

JC 2K3 wrote:

I heard a while back that the Vatican(or perhaps just some high up members of the clergy) was considering condensing the Catholic Church down and only including those who were truly Catholic and not the millions of cafeteria Catholics that are part of it right now. I'm not Catholic but I agree with this sentiment. Why would a religion want to be large if most of its follwers didn't obey its doctrine?

There are other Christian religions apart from the Catholic Church*. The Catholic Church has its own rules and beliefs and it happens to be a religion which doesn't explicitly follow the bible, much of its rules were decided by counsils hundreds of years ago and that's just how it is. If you as a Catholic think that the Catholic Church should change its rules then you're wrong and probably should consider why you are a member of the Catholic Church as opposed to a protestant church more open to your views.

*Depending on how you define "Christian" the Catholic Church may not even be Christian due to some of its teachings.

I would conside myself a bit of a pick and mix catholic but allowing priests to marry would not change catholic teaching or the catholic churchs fundemental principles.
Anyway this is quite an intresting article on the matter:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA23Y1992S147.html

JC 2K3

panda100 wrote:

I would conside myself a bit of a pick and mix catholic but allowing priests to marry would not change catholic teaching or the catholic churchs fundemental principles.

Who are you to say that not allowing Catholic priests to marry isn't one of it's fundamental princliple. I would consider it to be considering it's a difference that sets it apart from protestant religions.

And did you post the wrong link??

Bradidup

All over the United States & Europe Roman clergymen are being accused of child abuse. The reason for this is the damnable Roman doctrine of forbidding the clergy to marry. St. Paul says that one of the main signs of the GREAT APOSTASY would be the prohibition of marriage: Please read on and let the Bible speak for itself.

4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

4:3 Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

"This is a TRUE saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife . . . one that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection"
(I Timothy 3:1-4).

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues"
Apocolypse (Book of Revelation). 18:4).

Interesting Reading............http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp

Bradidup

admiralofthefleet wrote:

why not, there is not anything in the bible that says a man cannot marry, then again there is no mention of a 'pope' or nuns or purgatory in the bible either. all those have been created by the so-called catholic 'church'.

Well Said!!!!!

nesf

Bradidup wrote:

Interesting Reading............http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp

Yeah, he's one of the best comedians online tbh.

Bradidup

nesf wrote:

Yeah, he's one of the best comedians online tbh.

Check out his latest one, you could colour it in!!!

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1037/1037_01.asp

Bradidup

exCrumlinBoyo wrote:

That is why I am a non practicing Catholic. I still feel they need to change their rules against Gays, Contraception & Marriage between Priests. They should also allow women to be priests.

Christian churches shouldnt even tolerate a woman to "speak out" in the Church, never mind having a woman minister, (which is forbidden) also gays, sex outside marriage, (condoms etc) diviorce, etc is all considered a sin.

Marriage is permitted is among ministers & deacons. (Theres no priests in Protestant Churches). That doctrine in the Roman Catholic Religion forbidding "Clergy" to marry came straight from the Devil......... It says it in Scripture (Timothy 4 verse 1 to 4)

Christian church rules were set well over 2000 years ago in the Bible and will never change. The rules in the Roman Catholic Religion differ and are for ever changing to suit mankind rather than that of God.

Frank.

Cantab.

tj-music.com wrote:

Every person who wants to marry another person with consent of that other person shouldbe allowed to get married. Gender or race or religion should not be an issue. If people want to live happily ever after together than nobody should be allowed stopping them, imho

Says who? Our Church, our rules.

de5p0i1er

My two cents worth: The church don't want them to marry because they don't want to take care of there familys after they die. Its there way of saving money (like they need it).

biko

Indeed they should be allowed to mary (pun intendo)