Rituals

yomchi

Coming from a TKD background I thought it was the worst MA for rituals, eg bowing to Dojangs, etc - until I went to see a Thai show and saw a whole lot more!

What are people's opinions on rituals, especially Thai?

gymrabbit

my opinions are they need to be considered in context. bowing is a very normal thing in japanese etiquette so it's not something for just inside the dojo. in ireland we associate it with being submissive like bowing to queen.

i dont know too much about thai but as far as i know the dancing has something to do with the buddist nature of their country. so it's not some random nonsense.

the haka in new zealand rugby is another ritual very base in the country's history/culture.

in conclusion, as long as it's something relevant to culture it's ok. if you partake in a martial art you should be willing to go with all aspects of that martial art - kata, bowing, rituals etc. don't be a la carte.

SorGan

nothing wrong with them if they are an accepted part of your culture, ive never liked the fact that they stay with the martial arts ive trained in,and have always felt the fool bowing to another irish guy/gal during training:D
not our thing really is it:rolleyes:

Cake Fiend

gymrabbit wrote:

don't be a la carte.

Why, what's wrong with that? I do karate, but I don't believe the bowing, 'osu', and all that business has anything to do with my punching and kicking. If I were to do karate in a tracksuit in a parking lot in Ranelagh, it would still be karate.

Roper

Nothing wrong with ritual as long as it doesn't become the focus of what you do. I've seen places where the way you address people has become more important or as important as how you train.

paddyc

as far as i know the dancing has something to do with the buddist nature of their country

the Wai kru or Ram Muay is a dance to rid the ring of evil spirits, to give thanks to your trainer, parents and the dead thai warriors that have went before you....

It is very settling and very beautiful


paddy

Baggio...

Jon wrote:

What are people's opinions on rituals, especially Thai?

Can't speak for Thai to be honest.

But re. TMA - I'm not too into the old ritual side of things myself, especially when it is used as a tool to "beef up" the instructor. I see nothing wrong for having a healthy respect for ones instructor. However ritualism can be open to a certain amount of abuse. I have been in several TMA schools where they took the rituals very seriously, and often berated students for minor infringements (including beginners), it reminded me of my school days:mad: . Luckily people have copped on and don't let themselves get pushed around as much anymore.

My kenpo training is very informal - but we still do a bit of ritualism, as it's part of the syllabus which is fine.

I think it has a place if used properly, and for the right reasons...

Black Swan

OK, in our dojang we bow to our Korean master instructor, and he returns the bow (mutual respect exchanged). Being an instructor my students bow to me, and I bow in return. Once again mutual respect exchanged. I guess we could dump the bow and shake hands instead? Personally, I do not feel subserviant to our master instructor, or our grand master for that matter. I do respect their leadership and dedication to TKD, their years of knowledge and skill beyond mine, and if I didn't, I would not bow to them, nor would I accept their leadership or work for them. (So if I found out that you bought your belt, don't expect a bow)

How is this any different from showing respect to someone that earns a Ph.D. through years of study and scholarly research by calling them Doctor so-and-so? Is it wrong (or subserviant) to show token respect for their accomplishment? Am I any less a person when I address them as Dr? I don't think so.

paxo

One of the things that I like about Krav and Systema ( only been to 1 class ) is the absence of rituals. Having said that there was a move to introduce a bow in krav called a kidah. This however has not taken off in Oz not sure if other countries use it. I also find it amusing to see non oriental combative systems that use the kyu/dan belt ranking system. ie black belts in Krav

I had no problems with bowing when I trained in Japanese or Okinawan karate
But some instructors take it to ridiculous levels ie students could not walk behind the instructor or could not address him without putting thier hand up first to get permission. My favourite was an instructor who despite being Aussie spoke with a bad japanese accent when instructing and liked to be addessed as sensei outside of class. This led to an interesting exchange of views when I failed to do so at the Christmas barbie

Paxo

pearsquasher

I've been fortunate enough to become involved in an art that has strong links with the source school in Japan and have travelled there a few times over the years. In my early days in the art, under a teacher who wasn't so connected with Japan, ritual was a lot more pronounced and forced and I realise now it came as a consequence of the ignorance of the dojo I was in - 10 years ago now, and the need for it to fill in some sort of skewed perception of ritual and bowing and claptrap.

In Japan all of this is absolutely within the context of the culture and is no more formal than greeting someone here with a handshake. Many classical martial arts have connections to indigiounous religious influences and so, when you step into a learning environment that has this link, you follow certain minor protocols. They're only "protocols" because they're alien to you. If you think its some sort of loss of your western "freedom" to do this then you're very much not really free at all to be thinking so superficially or just a tad immature. I've found that folks who have a problem with it either

a) - come form the sort of dojo i first experienced where the teacher didn't understand the art they practiced
or
b) - have not themselves realised the context of other cultures protocols
or
c) - are just simply young and ignorant

"don't be a la carte."

Excellent advice.

Oh and as a sidenote, any martial art that seels itself on the basis of sopmething like "We don't have rituals" or "no bowing here" shows scant maturity and a certain insecurity about themsleves too. Why bother mentioning it. In fairness mayb e there are a lot of TMA dojos that do beef things up with ritual. Buyer beware though.

columok

I have little or no interest in ritual. It bothers me no more than martial flower arranging. Neither gives me or my training anything and therefore I put zero time into either. To get upset by a dearth or excess of ritual rather than simply bored highlights a problem.

I'll jump through ritualistic hoops if I feel the net training outweighs the boredom from the ritual. If I found a wrestling champion who taught for free, was 6000% better than every other coach and liked to do a secret handshake at the start of class then the ritual bs is clearly outweighed by the quality of functional training. Unfortunately the majority of ritualistic martial arts offer little to outweigh the classical baggage and therefore are simply not worth the effort of someone serious about functional skill development of combat skillz.

yomchi

pearsquasher wrote:

I've been fortunate enough to become involved in an art that has strong links with the source school in Japan and have travelled there a few times over the years. In my early days in the art, under a teacher who wasn't so connected with Japan, ritual was a lot more pronounced and forced and I realise now it came as a consequence of the ignorance of the dojo I was in - 10 years ago now, and the need for it to fill in some sort of skewed perception of ritual and bowing and claptrap.

In Japan all of this is absolutely within the context of the culture and is no more formal than greeting someone here with a handshake. Many classical martial arts have connections to indigiounous religious influences and so, when you step into a learning environment that has this link, you follow certain minor protocols. They're only "protocols" because they're alien to you. If you think its some sort of loss of your western "freedom" to do this then you're very much not really free at all to be thinking so superficially or just a tad immature. I've found that folks who have a problem with it either

a) - come form the sort of dojo i first experienced where the teacher didn't understand the art they practiced
or
b) - have not themselves realised the context of other cultures protocols
or
c) - are just simply young and ignorant

"don't be a la carte."

Excellent advice.

Oh and as a sidenote, any martial art that seels itself on the basis of sopmething like "We don't have rituals" or "no bowing here" shows scant maturity and a certain insecurity about themsleves too. Why bother mentioning it. In fairness mayb e there are a lot of TMA dojos that do beef things up with ritual. Buyer beware though.

Nice post, interesting thoughts.

Baggio...

It depends what your after in your training. If you want to go through Mar Arts and become immersed in the traditional culture that's fair enough, and good luck to anyone who wants to do it. Personally I think some guys can go overboard and that's just not for me...

For RBSD training it serves very little purpose to use rituals - it does not really add anything to the training.

That said, you could say that "touching gloves" is a western ritual. I notice that there are a few combatives instructors out there that bow to each other before training commences. This is done to acknowledge a respect for your partner, and to pay tribute to traditional fighting systems. But that's about all the rituals you will ever see in CQC.

RedRaven

Jon wrote:

Coming from a TKD background I thought it was the worst MA for rituals, eg bowing to Dojangs, etc - until I went to see a Thai show and saw a whole lot more!

What are people's opinions on rituals, especially Thai?

What show did you go to?

yomchi

RedRaven wrote:

What show did you go to?

Armageddon VII

Millionaire

Re the Thai.... I think the Wai Kru... is a very nice Ritual...as what paddy C said.

also another reason, is different camps have their own versions of Wai Kru, so if someone does the same Wai Kru as you, it may mean they came from the same camp/teacher and you should not fight them.

Also doing Wai Kru, is a nice litle warm up too!

also there is plenty of other little traditions in there, any good MT book will explain them all.

If you do not follow Thai Traditions, people will think you got no manners, and will not respect you nor like you. and that goes further than just Muay Thai.

I guess its no different that going into Croke Park on all Ireland final day and waving a Union Jack!

Roper

Tell you what its worked on Paddy, last time I saw him he looked very settled around the midriff...




Never miss a genuine opportunity!:D

pearsquasher

"Immersion" in ritual is something i've never seen in Japanense dojo, only Western ones who didn't train enough in Japanese ones to realise its not that big a deal. I'm telling you the whole things a myth propagated by movies, a loss in translation, misuderstandings and people who want to up their "more western" art by putting down others. Don't be mistaken by things like formal demonstrations that you see at shirnes and the like in Japan - they're generally special occasions. Regular class are straighforward.

BLUNT

Paddy C's on the right track.All battlefield art's,of that the modern sport of Muay Thai came form.It wasnt born out of a sporting/entertainment need but the struggle of life and death.I could say ( speaking for my self )..that if I was to walk into a battlefield modern or old,that i would have a ritual,a prayer of something to help calm my soul.The Ram Muai,was to express the last wishes of the fighter's ( Nack Su ) and attempt to display the nature of there soul's.The whole thing with "Fancie" dress to,as a lot of MMA dont understand the true nature of all the wee thing's,that us ole guy's such as the Ram Theb Pranomn or "dance of the Angels" all had a hudge part of the life and death strugle.Then there's ( wait for it ) the magic tattoo's of the Saiyasart magic/protective tattoo'es.All races 'n' culture's have it,us Irish had load's of that there magic/spirtual stuff go'en on.So it just aint Siam or Indonesia that has this whole thing go'en on......................every one did

Roper

pearsquasher wrote:

"Immersion" in ritual is something i've never seen in Japanense dojo, only Western ones who didn't train enough in Japanese ones to realise its not that big a deal. I'm telling you the whole things a myth propagated by movies, a loss in translation, misuderstandings and people who want to up their "more western" art by putting down others. Don't be mistaken by things like formal demonstrations that you see at shirnes and the like in Japan - they're generally special occasions. Regular class are straighforward.

This is what I've heard from damn near everyone I know who has trained in Japan. Basically: The "ritual" of bowing lasts as long and is given as much thought as a handshake is over here. The best one I've heard was a guy who I used to go to school with who used to do some form of Jiu Jitsu going over and leaving his shoes on when he went in the door of this famous dojo. The Master had a freaker when he saw the shoes and went ape sh1t (in Japanese), so my mate quickly removed them and put them outside. When he came back in the Master had the mop out and was mopping where he'd walked and cursing him. He wasn't concerned with ritual he just wanted to keep his floor clean. Master Proper maybe?:)

So what happened to make the Asian arts so ritualistically inclined over here? I think a misunderstanding is part of it. People thought the bowing was as much part of the art as the fighting. Some probably liked being bowed to a bit much and took that on.

Oh and as a sidenote, any martial art that seels itself on the basis of sopmething like "We don't have rituals" or "no bowing here" shows scant maturity and a certain insecurity about themsleves too. Why bother mentioning it.

Well, I think there's a couple of reasons for this. 1) Its a reaction to the concept of martial arts as it has become known over here. For example where I coach nobody bows but we used to because that was "the way things were". Personally as the gym began to evolve I made a conscious decision to eradicate these things, as I felt it was an obstacle between me and the guys I was coaching. I made the correct decision as "the way things are" is a much nicer atmosphere. People are more comfortable.
2) A lot of people are put off from training in martial arts because they couldn't stand the bowing and the yes senseis. MA is sometimes seen as almost cultish in its approach, and who wants to join a cult? Put your hands down it was a rhetorical question!:) So by stating that you have no rituals you set yourself apart and appeal to those people.

pearsquasher

Are people really bowing that much that they can't stand it?

I find that very odd indeed.

Roper it sounds like your gym does not have ties to Japanese or other eastern cultures so your exclusion of any trappings seems natural enough to me. Even if an art does have this connection and yet excludes all cultural nuances - then that seems fine too.

The idea that dojo exists that have these things yet no connection to the roots except for "this art comes form japan" or what not is bizarre. If members get cought up in this sort of place, they deserve to be there and everyone else is better off without them! As someone in our art is said to have said once "the world needs bad dojo to attract the bad students".

Tim_Murphy

I'm not much of a fan of ritual shockingly enough because in general it doesn't add anything positive (just from my own experiences in MAs). In general I think the best it will do is not get in the way of what you are meant to be doing, at best it won't add anything negative, an example being a quick bow at the start and the end of a judo class. However I've been places where the ritual was as important as the actual training and a huge amount of time was wasting doing pointless rituals for reasons that the instructor probably couldn't even explain if somebody asked. well reasons other than 'this is how we've always done it' anyway.

Some personal rituals can be of benefit, i.e. pre-competition rituals, but that is a different subject entirely.

HammerHeadGym

Roper wrote:

...the Master had the mop out and was mopping where he'd walked and cursing him. He wasn't concerned with ritual he just wanted to keep his floor clean...

The no shoes ritual is for exactly that. If my face is about to be ground into the mat i'd rather you hadn't trapsed dog crap all over it.

But, as has been said above, the Japanese don't spend long on bowing and ritual except in religious ceremony on special days and so on. It's the westerners that get off on the different bows and titles.

I do think a certain level of respect and discipline should be instilled in the students however. (There are gyms/dojos around dublin where instructors have to shout over the students to get a message across, although thats the extreme other end of the scale.) Wheter continued ritual is the way to do it remains to be seen.

itfdlk

I'm ITF TKD and like the ritual - I've always belonged to clubs which were fairly strict about bowing and respect for all grades, without getting cultish. After all, we take an oath at the beginning of each class, so you'd want to be taking it seriously. Or does that make us a cult???

I like that the bowing and change of etiqette cleared the mind of all that had gone before during the day. New rules for a new environment made me concentrate better and meant that I always knew what action I was supposed to take at every point in the class. I liked, too, that at least one environment in my life insisted on good manners from and towards all members...

Tim_Murphy

I'm ITF TKD and like the ritual - I've always belonged to clubs which were fairly strict about bowing and respect for all grades, without getting cultish. After all, we take an oath at the beginning of each class, so you'd want to be taking it seriously. Or does that make us a cult???

It doesn't make the club a cult but TKD clubs generally do have quite a bit of cult-like behaviour.